Re: Hurricane relief

[Gary Drescher]

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> I do expect folks to take care of themselves when they're able, and I
> expect private charity to take care of those who are not able. ...
> It sounds cold, but the federal government should have very
> little to do with a relief effort such as the one along the gulf coast.

You think rescue from a widespread natural disaster should be left to
*private charity*? And if the charities are not up to the task, should the
victims just be left to die in the streets?

Do you acknowledge *any* legitimate domestic purpose of government, apart
from subsidizing the recreation of private pilots? (Virtually every
right-wing aviator who posts here is in favor of continued government
intervention to prevent market forces from converting airport real estate to
more profitable uses.)

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"john smith" > wrote in message
.. .
> That's called scrounging. Losing everything you already have is a
> contingency.
> How many times did you see the helicopters going to check out what was
> causing smoke? Every time didn't they?
> Want to get rescued first? As soon as you see or hear the helicopters
> flying, start a fire with thick black smoke, someone will come to see what
> it is. What do you think is easier to see, someone waving their arms as a
> helicopter goes cruising by, or a column of black smoke a couple miles
> away?

You're weaving an astounding fantasy here. There were people atop houses
throughout the flooded city, painting SOS messages on rooftops and waving
large white sheets that were plainly visible, but to no avail, because the
rescuers were not there. Moreover, 20,000 people had followed the
authorities' instructions to take shelter in a stadium (which they were then
forbidden to leave because of the rising flood waters) where they found
themselves trapped for days without food, water, or lights, with
temperatures in the upper 90s, immersed in raw sewage and surrounded by the
decaying corpses of people who had already died of dehydration. And you want
them to *light fires* to call attention to themselves?

--Gary

[john smith]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> You're weaving an astounding fantasy here. There were people atop houses
> throughout the flooded city, painting SOS messages on rooftops and waving
> large white sheets that were plainly visible, but to no avail, because the
> rescuers were not there. Moreover, 20,000 people had followed the
> authorities' instructions to take shelter in a stadium (which they were then
> forbidden to leave because of the rising flood waters) where they found
> themselves trapped for days without food, water, or lights, with
> temperatures in the upper 90s, immersed in raw sewage and surrounded by the
> decaying corpses of people who had already died of dehydration. And you want
> them to *light fires* to call attention to themselves?

No. This thread has digressed from the failure of individuals and
governments to make the right decisions in the face of impending
disaster to a treatise on survival skills. It has gotten way off topic.

[Gary Drescher]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:_1sSe.4062$aG.3295@trndny01...
> Blanche wrote:
>>
>> You are insensitive and arrogant.
>
> and probably too stupid to listen to you. Thanks for trying.

Yes. It's important--and, often, ultimately effective--to speak out against
evil, even if the direct targets of your speech are unlikely to be
persuaded.

I've never had any illusion about what lurks just beneath the
public-relations veneer of "compassionate conservatism", so I'm not
surprised to see the giddy orgy of self-righteous disparagement here (and
elsewhere) that's being directed against the black underclass in the wake of
the hurricane's devastation; the right wing's ascendancy has led to some
unusually unguarded commentary.

I do hope and expect, though, that as the inhumane victim-blaming cruelty of
the right-wing agenda makes itself more boldly visible, their "let them eat
cake" sentiment toward compatriots in a dire emergency will prove
sufficiently shocking and revolting to most people to create a political
turning point.

--Gary

[Matt Whiting]

john smith wrote:
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>
>> You're weaving an astounding fantasy here. There were people atop
>> houses throughout the flooded city, painting SOS messages on rooftops
>> and waving large white sheets that were plainly visible, but to no
>> avail, because the rescuers were not there. Moreover, 20,000 people
>> had followed the authorities' instructions to take shelter in a
>> stadium (which they were then forbidden to leave because of the rising
>> flood waters) where they found themselves trapped for days without
>> food, water, or lights, with temperatures in the upper 90s, immersed
>> in raw sewage and surrounded by the decaying corpses of people who had
>> already died of dehydration. And you want them to *light fires* to
>> call attention to themselves?
>
>
> No. This thread has digressed from the failure of individuals and
> governments to make the right decisions in the face of impending
> disaster to a treatise on survival skills. It has gotten way off topic.

And failure of individuals and governments was ever ON TOPIC for r.a...
groups? :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:_1sSe.4062$aG.3295@trndny01...
>
>>Blanche wrote:
>>
>>>You are insensitive and arrogant.
>>
>>and probably too stupid to listen to you. Thanks for trying.
>
>
> Yes. It's important--and, often, ultimately effective--to speak out against
> evil, even if the direct targets of your speech are unlikely to be
> persuaded.
>
> I've never had any illusion about what lurks just beneath the
> public-relations veneer of "compassionate conservatism", so I'm not
> surprised to see the giddy orgy of self-righteous disparagement here (and
> elsewhere) that's being directed against the black underclass in the wake of
> the hurricane's devastation; the right wing's ascendancy has led to some
> unusually unguarded commentary.

Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the
agenda nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in
desparate straits. Just as in Iraq where the mainstream media only
shows you the car bombings and aftermath, but almost never shows you the
kids in schools, the kids in parks built by the military, etc. If you
really believe that what you are seeing on TV from the areas devastated
by Katrina is representative, then I feel very sorry for you as you have
been duped to the highest degree.

Matt

[Gary Drescher]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is why
> you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the agenda
> nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in desparate
> straits.

Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people stranded in
New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just hiding the
pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down the streets or
around the stadium?

--Gary

[Dan Luke]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
>
> Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
> why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the
> agenda nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in
> desparate straits.

Hee-hee!

That must be why Fox News was showing so many pictures of stranded black
people in New Orleans. They've turned liberal!

[Matt Whiting]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is why
>>you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the agenda
>>nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in desparate
>>straits.
>
>
> Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people stranded in
> New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just hiding the
> pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down the streets or
> around the stadium?

Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media
shows what is controversial rather than what actually is?

Matt

[Gary Drescher]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
>>>why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the agenda
>>>nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in desparate
>>>straits.
>>
>>
>> Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people stranded
>> in New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just hiding the
>> pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down the streets
>> or around the stadium?
>
> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
> shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media shows
> what is controversial rather than what actually is?

The news media craves dramatic imagery. Every available photograph of people
stranded on the roofs of nearly submerged houses is dramatic enough to get
wide circulation. Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos
of white people on rooftops?

More importantly, do you have a shred of *evidence* to support such a
supposition? (For example, have you found such suppressed photos in the
right-wing news outlets or blogs?) And can you explain why the images of the
hurricane victims more generally (apart from the handful of available
rooftop photos) do *not* exclude the minority of white victims, if there's a
liberal conspiracy to show only the black ones?

It's not enough that the victims of this natural disaster are being blamed
by some. You've even figured out a way to blame the news media for *showing*
the victims if the victims are disproportionately black.

--Gary

[W P Dixon]

Gary,
I agree with you 100% most of the victims in New Orleans are
black,...but I have not seen alot of coverage on the other coastal areas.
Has anyone gone down and checked on the Cajun villages in southern LA, and I
read a few newspaper articles from MS that have people there wondering where
their help is..black and white. Not saying it is or isn't the media's fault,
but I just have not seen it. And I really do wonder about all those small
towns south of New Orleans ...one has to guess they are probably wiped from
the face of the earth?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gary Drescher wrote:
>>> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
>>>>why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the
>>>>agenda nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in
>>>>desparate straits.
>>>
>>>
>>> Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people
>>> stranded in New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just
>>> hiding the pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down
>>> the streets or around the stadium?
>>
>> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
>> shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media shows
>> what is controversial rather than what actually is?
>
> The news media craves dramatic imagery. Every available photograph of
> people stranded on the roofs of nearly submerged houses is dramatic enough
> to get wide circulation. Do you really suppose the media is suppressing
> the photos of white people on rooftops?
>
> More importantly, do you have a shred of *evidence* to support such a
> supposition? (For example, have you found such suppressed photos in the
> right-wing news outlets or blogs?) And can you explain why the images of
> the hurricane victims more generally (apart from the handful of available
> rooftop photos) do *not* exclude the minority of white victims, if there's
> a liberal conspiracy to show only the black ones?
>
> It's not enough that the victims of this natural disaster are being blamed
> by some. You've even figured out a way to blame the news media for
> *showing* the victims if the victims are disproportionately black.
>
> --Gary
>
>

[[email protected]]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gary Drescher wrote:
> >> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
> >>>why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the agenda
> >>>nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in desparate
> >>>straits.
> >>
> >>
> >> Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people stranded
> >> in New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just hiding the
> >> pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down the streets
> >> or around the stadium?
> >
> > Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
> > shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media shows
> > what is controversial rather than what actually is?
>
> The news media craves dramatic imagery. Every available photograph of people
> stranded on the roofs of nearly submerged houses is dramatic enough to get
> wide circulation. Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos
> of white people on rooftops?
>
> More importantly, do you have a shred of *evidence* to support such a
> supposition? (For example, have you found such suppressed photos in the
> right-wing news outlets or blogs?) And can you explain why the images of the
> hurricane victims more generally (apart from the handful of available
> rooftop photos) do *not* exclude the minority of white victims, if there's a
> liberal conspiracy to show only the black ones?
>
> It's not enough that the victims of this natural disaster are being blamed
> by some. You've even figured out a way to blame the news media for *showing*
> the victims if the victims are disproportionately black.
>
> --Gary

Good points about media being a business. Yeah, I've seen plenty of
coverage showing white vicitims sitting down whereever with lost looks
on their faces, or attempting to give the reporter an interview and
just breaking down. Interesting how pain knows no prejudice, ain't it?

I watched an interesting news show this morning where the issue being
debated was whether there is liberal bias in the media. In the midst of
the debate, one person made a good point that it's important to make
the distinction between what is just 'media' and what's 'journalism.'
With the former, for example, it's cheaper to repeat the same
stories/imagery over and over (in fact, it's actually no longer 'news'
at that point). Marshall McLuhan was so right.

Unfortunately, there's very little actual journalism out there.

=============

FWIW:

In an unrelated story, I received the following transportation-centric
e-mail two days ago, making it somewhat out-of-date. It's very long (9
page word doc pasted below as ASCII test), but perhaps it might have
some useful info for folks. There's some aviation info in there, so I
guess it's marginally on-topic for the newsgroups.

I think the sheer scope of the problem evidenced indicates we needed to
be much more pro-active. Heck, when there's 'credible evidence' of a
*possible* terrorist threat, the level is raised, security is more
visible (at least here in the city on public transit, .gov buildings,
etc.). Here was a case where (the infamous) they knew it was a cat 5,
all the wonderful technology for predicting storm tracks was
functioning, they knew the status of the levees for what? years?.
Damage was clearly imminent.

Yes it's easy to sit here in the comfort of my apartment and spew 20/20
hingsight through the CAT 5 cable, but hopefully one of the lessons
learned is that they should have actually been perparing for this well
in advance of it hitting land, moving shtuff closer (read: near enough
but not in harm's way), setting it all up. I'm far from one to claim to
have the answers and maybe I'm missing something (won't be the first
time ;), but shouldn't this be handled in many of the same ways that
military tactical is handled, deploying before you attack? You're in
(or near) the theatre, ready.

</soapbox>

Regards,

Jon

Here's the content:

======================== CUT HERE ========================

U. S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
HURRICANE KATRINA - SITUATION REPORT THIRTEEN

11:00 AM, Friday, September 2, 2005
Evacuation and relief are now the principal objectives of the USG
response, but they are being hampered by difficulties in establishing
civil order and security in the afflicted locales, especially the City
of New Orleans
DAMAGE ASSESSMENT:

Levee Damage: Work continues to repair the damaged levee breaches.
Official Reported Fatalities (no change):
Note: The States have not reported any changes for several days.
- Louisiana: 3
- Mississippi: 17
- Alabama: 2
- Florida: 11
- Texas: 1
Shelters: 343 shelters are open and staffed.
- AL: 32 3,345
- AR: 15 244
- FL: 8 481
- LA: 136 60,197
- MS: 101 13,207
- TN: 1 0
- TX: 50 5,378
Total: 343 82,852 people are in shelters.
Power Outages: 2,091,833 million customers are still without power.
State-by-state outages are provided below:
- Louisiana: 780,735: down 45,413
- Mississippi: 774,244: down 116,181
- Alabama: 235,213: down 12,057
- Florida: 15,490: No reported change.
- Georgia: 12,500: No reported change
Communications: Damaged communication facilities continue to be a
major challenge throughout the States of Louisiana and Mississippi.
Civil Disorder: Wide-spread looting and violence against evacuating
citizens continue to take place. Security of relief worker is becoming
a major concern of the on site authorities.

TRANSPORTATION SECTOR IMPACTS: The following reports describe key
issues and challenges for the Transportation Infrastructure.

Aviation:

Airports:
- Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport (MSY) Limited VFR
Day Operations to both Runways 01/19 and 10/28. This airport is being
used for the evacuation of New Orleans and emergency re-supply of the
area.
- Gulfport-Biloxi Regional Airport (GPT) is open for limited Day VFR
emergency relief aircraft and is capable of handling C-5A and B747
aircraft.
- Stennis Intl. Airport (HAS), Biloxi, MS is open for uncontrolled Day
VFR emergency relief aircraft only. Power, fuel, and other services are
questionable: there are no navigational aids.
- Lakefront (NEW) airport, New Orleans is underwater.
Navigation Aid Status
New Orleans International (MSY)
Rwy 01 ILS operational
Rwy 19 Localizer only
Rwy 28/10 Localizer only
Rwy 28 Glideslope OTS
Biloxi
No NAVAIDS available
USAF is deploying a temporary tower that is expected to be operational
within 48 hours
Gulfport
No NAVAIDS available
The Air Force Special Tactics team is en route and is not expected to
arrive until later today.
The Gulfport temporary tower is still expected to be operational by
09/03/05
Communications
One landline between MSY and Houston Center is operational. Three
radios are available at the MSY TRACON.

Maritime:

MARAD's Central Region Office has relocated from New Orleans to Port
Arthur Texas until conditions make it appropriate to move back to New
Orleans. The temporary address for MARAD's Central Region is: 110
U.S. Federal Building, 2875 Jimmy Johnson Blvd., Suite 107, Highway 69,
Port Arthur Texas 77640\Phone: 409.727.4565 fax 409.727.4528 POC
Mr. Dee Varshney (cell 409.284.4769). MARAD is aiding in transport of
petroleum - Oil refineries are not able to distribute their products
(gasoline, jet fuel, etc.) effectively because of difficulties with the
pipeline system. Consequently, the Bureau of Customs and Border
Protection, the enforcement agency for the Coastwise Laws (requiring
U.S. vessels in domestic trade) have formed a partnership. If MARAD
determines that there are no U.S. vessels available for a specific
project, Customs will not fine those that use foreign ships after a
search has been conducted through MARAD.

The President announced that he is directing Homeland Security
Secretary Chertoff to suspend the coastwise laws for oil and gasoline.
MARAD is awaiting the specifics on this announcement from CBP, the
enforcement agency. In response to overwhelming media interest about
the effects of Hurricane Katrina on
seaports in the Gulf Coast region of the United States, the American
Association of Port Authorities (AAPA) has created a "Hurricane Katrina
Port Updates" web site page where they will be posting information with
regard to the status of the affected ports as well as background
information and resources for media and the public. This resource can
be found at:
http://www.aapa-ports.org/pressroom/katrina_updates.htm
Port Status: Three USN minesweepers to start search for sunken vessels
on 03 September.
- Louisiana: Closed.
- Gulfport MS - Closed
- Pascagoula MS - Closed
- Mobile AL - Open to vessels with a draft of 12 ft or less. Expect
Mobile Harbor to open on 04 September.
- Pensacola FL - Open to vessels with a draft of 12 ft or less. NOAA
on scene conducting surveys. One chemical and one Navy tanker expected
to enter port on 3 September.
- Panama City FL - Closed
- South Louisiana - Closed
- St. Bernard - Closed
- Plaquemines - Closed
- Greater Baton Rouge - Closed
- Morgan City - Closed
- Gulf Port - Closed
- Intra-coastal Waterway - Open from Mobile ship channel east to
Apalachicola, FL. The Mobile Ship Channel west to Pass Christian, MS
remains closed.
- Mississippi River - Open to tug and barge traffic up to Natchez,
MS. Lower Mississippi River below Greenville has been surveyed by
commercial vessels. However severe aids to navigation outages have been
reported. Coast Guard and NOAA conducting surveys at the entrance to
the river.
- Red River - Open to Alexandria.
- Ouachita/Black River - Open to Shreveport.

Damage Reports and Navigation Hazards
- Harvey lock non-functional due to a piling stuck in the lock.
- Inner Harbor Navigational Canal Lock - Lock is not operational due
to flooding.

Highways:
- Damage assessments continue. Infrastructure damage is becoming
clearer.
- FHWA Acting Administrator and staff are participating in Army Corps
of Engineers ESF-3 conference calls to help shape assessment plans and
long term recovery efforts.
- FHWA is assisting FEMA with route planning and road restriction
waiver State point of contact information.
- FHWA Evacuation Liaison Team (ELT) continues to support response and
recovery efforts by facilitating communications between the states and
providing highway situational awareness.
- FHWA Division Office personnel are assisting state counterparts with
damage assessments. FHWA offices throughout the country are poised to
provide additional support.
- FHWA is working with FTA to expedite the movement of generators to
the pipeline companies in Alabama.
- FHWA Office of Freight Management developed a Hurricane Katrina
Recovery section on the FHWA homepage (www.fhwa.dot.gov). This section
links to the FHWA Oversize and Overweight Load Permit Information page.
The documents pertaining to State policies for expediting the movement
of goods and equipment to the Gulf region are available to the public
at this site.
- All FHWA personnel in the affected area are accounted for. There
were no deaths or injuries.
Louisiana
- Situation in New Orleans is that I-10 from the west and I-55 from the
north are open only to emergency response traffic. It is possible to
drive on I-10 towards the city far as the I-10/I-610 split. However,
there is generally no way to get on or off I-10 due to the high water.
- The Lake Ponchartrain Causeway is being used by light emergency
response vehicles. The bridge is damaged. Both spans are being used
to create one free lane in each direction. Divers are in process of
inspecting the bridge.
- The Causeway is load bearing rated at HS-20, the interstate load
bearing weight, indicating it can be used for emergency response if no
damage is found.
- The New Orleans airport is accessible via I-10 and Airport Boulevard.
It is not accessible via US-61.
- I-55 is open from the Mississippi line to I-10 and I-12.
- I-59 is open from the LA line to Slidell and the I-10/I-12
intersection.
- In preparation for upcoming damage assessments, the FHWA Louisiana
Division Office met with top State officials to explain the highway
Emergency Relief Fund Program. That meeting was followed by a training
session conducted for 10 combined FHWA/State DOTD damage assessment
teams.
- Following training two teams were deployed to the field. Three more
teams will be deployed tomorrow, and another team will be deployed
within the next two days. The remaining four teams will be deployed as
areas become accessible.
- Work continues on repairs to the US-11 Bridge on the north side of
Lake Ponchartrain. When completed, this bridge will provide the only
access to New Orleans from the east. There is no estimate as to when
this work will be completed.
- I-12 is open from Baton Rouge to the I-10 intersection in Slidell for
emergency response vehicles only.
- The State is conducting contracting activities in preparation of
awarding a contract to repair the I-10 "Twin Span" that connects
New Orleans to Slidell.
Mississippi
- The FHWA Mississippi Division Administrator toured the Gulf Coast
yesterday.
- He confirmed that the Bay St. Louis-Gulfport and Biloxi-Oceans
Springs Bridges on US-90 are gone. The coast is scoured from the gulf
to 1000 to 1500 feet beyond the shoreline.
- He also clarified the status of I-10. Damage to the eastbound span
of the Pascagoula Bride that was cause by a barge breaking loose from
its mooring is what precludes the opening of all 4 lanes of I-10.
There is a 300 foot span that must be taken out of that bridge and
replaced. Mississippi officials are working to allow work to begin on
that span next week. It is estimated that it will take three weeks to
complete that repair. Once repairs are complete, the I-10 can be
opened from the Alabama to Louisiana state lines provided there is no
damage to other bridges. Divers are in process of inspecting those
bridges.
- Crossovers are being constructed at each end of the bridge. That
will allow all lanes to be used in each direction until reaching the
bridge where the lanes will neck down to one lane each way. This will
remain in place until the bridge is repaired.
- US-49: 2 lanes open, Jackson to Hattiesburg. This section is also
open to the public. Hattiesburg to Gulfport is 1 lane for emergency
response vehicles only.
- I-55, open to the public state line to state line.
- I-59 is open to the state line for emergency response vehicles.
- US-61 is open line to line.
- I-20 is open to the public, line to line.
- I-110 in Biloxi has been opened from I-10 to US-90 for emergency
response vehicles only.
- US-98 is open to the public from state line to Columbia and for
emergency response only to the Alabama line.
- US-84 is open to the public from the western state line to Prentiss
and from there to the Alabama line for emergency response only.
- US-45 is open to the public.
- FHWA personnel are participating in Emergency Relief training
sessions as preparation for accompanying State damage assessment teams
on assessment missions.
Alabama
- Both lanes of the I-10 of the Wallace Tunnel are now open in each
direction. Traffic had been limited to one lane each way since Monday.
- The US-90 Causeway eastbound was expected to open late Friday. The
ramp bridge from the U.S. 90 Causeway eastbound onto Interstate 10
eastbound will remain closed for an extended period because five
concrete spans must be replaced. These 50-foot spans were destroyed by
storm surge. There is no timeline or cost estimate, but officials will
work as quickly as possible to achieve this repair.
- The fiber optic cables to the I-10 traffic information signs
sustained major damage. Extensive repairs are necessary. This traffic
information system will be out of service for an extended period until
repairs are made.

Transit:

Transit agencies in the hurricane damaged area continue to experience
fuel shortages and requests for assistance in obtaining fuel for their
fleets. Further, FTA personnel continue to support Phmsa in the
latter's efforts to assist and monitor progress in bringing pipelines
back on-line.

Mississippi
Efforts to contact the various MS Transit agencies have been futile.
The FTA Regional office will continue attempts throughout today to
contact the Coast Transit, Hattiesburg and Jackson Transit agencies, as
well as the rural providers. This effort will be coordinated with the
MSDOT in order to obtain an assessment.

Rail:

FRA is working with FEMA, AMTRAK and the Freight railroads to utilize
an AMTRAK passenger train to assist in evacuating New Orleans. The
AMTRAK train is crewed and fueled on standby in Baton Rouge, LA. The
open issue is FEMA's decision as to the final destination for the
passengers and security for the loading of the train at the Avondale
terminal on the west side of the Huey Long Bridge. The train can
transport Approx 600 PAX per trip to Lafayette, LA where they will be
met by AMTRAK contracted motor coaches to the final destination. The
tracks have been inspected and are cleared for passenger and freight
train operations.

Short line situation in Hurricane Damaged Area
- New Orleans Gulf Coast - still unable to reach property to evaluate
condition 1 employee unaccounted for.
- New Orleans Public Belt - dry and operational from the Huey P. Long
bridge to the east side of Gov. Dix dock
- Old Augusta RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Ouachita RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Pearl River RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Port Bienville RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Terminal Railway Alabama State Docks - unable to establish contact at
this time
- Timber Rock RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Acadiana RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Alabama & Gulf Coast - unable to establish contact at this time
- Arkansas, Louisiana, & Mississippi - unable to establish contact at
this time
- Columbus & Greenville RR - operational
- Delta Southern - unable to establish contact at this time
- Gloster Southern - unable to establish contact at this time
- Louisiana & Delta - still unable to evaluate condition
- Louisiana & North West RR - operational
- M&B RR - unable to establish contact at this time
- Meridian Southern - 50 miles of line blocked by over 1000 trees,
clearing gangs have run out of gasoline for vehicles, chain saws, and
Hi- rails to continue clearing two employees unaccounted for
- Mississippi Export - unable to establish contact at this time
Source: ASLRRA Executive Director

Pipelines:

Crude Oil Pipelines

The (Louisiana Offshore Oil Port) LOOP suffered minimal damage at a
booster station and the storage terminal. Power has been restored to
LOOP. As of September 1, 2005, five ships were waiting to be unloaded.
LOOP/LoCap (an interconnecting pipeline) is not yet delivering to the
St. James Terminal (a crude oil distribution hub). There is no power
at Galliano (pumping station) due to generator failure. Power is
expected to be restored today.

Capline, a major crude oil pipeline that transport crude oil from the
gulf to the Midwest, restarted operations at 75 % capacity on August
31, 2005. Capline started up with 4 million barrels storage in
Sugarland and 0.5 million barrels storage in Arcadian. Also, some
offshore production has been coming into St. James Terminal. This
should give LOOP/LoCap time to restore operation before Capline runs
dry.

Refined Product Pipelines (gasoline, aviation fuel, diesel fuel, etc.)

Colonial and Plantation petroleum product pipelines, which provide the
majority of gasoline, diesel fuel, and jet fuel to the Southeast,
Mid-Atlantic, and Northeast states, had been shutdown due to loss of
power at key pump stations in LA and MS. Both pipelines resumed
operation on August 31, 2005 at reduced capacity. Early this morning
power was restored to the Collins Terminal (a key distribution and
pumping station). Colonial is now operating at approximately 75%
capacity on line 1 (gasoline) and 60% capacity on line 2 (refined
products).

Colonial has emergency generators en-route to restore power at key
pumping stations. As of 0800 this morning 23 of 29 trucks carrying
generators, transformers and other equipment to power up pump stations
have arrived and the equipment is being installed. Once the generators
are installed Colonial expects to be operating at 85% capacity.

Plantation has reported that power has been restored to their Collins
Terminal. Pumps are running, but at a reduced capacity because of an
over voltage problem. This occurred because this large high voltage
transmission line is feeding only the Plantation at this time; there
are no cities, subdivisions, or industrial customers currently being
supplied by this line. Plantation is installing over-voltage
protection to protect the pump station motors. As a result plantation
is only able pump at 30% capacity (up from 25% yesterday) at the
current time.

Other major product pipelines in the region are not experiencing any
problems. TEPPCO is moving products from Texas into the Northeast and
Centennial is moving products from Texas into Illinois.

Truck/Generators in Support of Colonial Pipeline
- 19 trucks have reached their final destinations.
- 10 are still en route to their final destinations
- Overnight, several truck operators "checked in" and one requested
an escort, but there were no glitches. All are on schedule
- An estimated time of arrival for the remaining vehicles range from
0700- 1500 hrs (CDT)

Natural Gas Pipelines

No natural gas transmission pipelines companies have reported service
disruptions.

Press Release:
Colonial Pipeline this morning announced that it continues safely to
add capacity to both its Main Lines 1 and 2 and is at approximately 66%
of normal transportation volumes.
Additional restoration of electric power service has allowed Colonial
to continue its planned capacity increase. Colonial crews continue to
install and connect the distributed generation equipment that will
allow Colonial to add additional capacity to both the gasoline and
distillate lines. Current plans would allow Colonial to be at
approximately 85% capacity by late this weekend.
"On behalf of all Colonial employees, I want to thank the electric
utility workers, law enforcement, and emergency response organizations
across our system that have been supportive and cooperative as we
restored Colonial to partial service," said Lemmon. "We do understand
the importance of the products we transport to the American people and
feel responsible to protect people and the environment as we deliver
needed petroleum products."
Colonial Pipeline, headquartered in Alpharetta, Ga., delivers a daily
average of 100 million gallons of gasoline, home heating oil, aviation
fuel and other refined petroleum products to communities and businesses
throughout South and the Eastern United States. Colonial consists of
more than 5,500 miles of pipeline, originating at Houston, Texas, and
terminating at the New York harbor.
DOT Response: DOT continues to actively staff Regional and State
operations centers, as well as Joint Field Offices with over 66
emergency transportation personnel. Additionally, DOT is operating the
National Emergency Transportation Center (ETC) in Atlanta, GA. The
Headquarters DOT Crisis Management Center is operating 24/7 until the
response and rescue phase of this operation is complete.

Emergency Support Function 1 - Transportation: DOT has provided over
1336 trucks to move 2790 truckloads of goods thus far. Through
midnight September first, DOT had processed 17.11 million MREs and
81,600 disaster meals, 18.4 million liters of water, 20,960 tarps,
10,400 rolls of plastic sheeting, 5.0 million pounds of ice, 460 mobile
homes, 10 53' reefer trucks, 42 trailers of tent kits, 1 power unit
for a disaster portable mortuary unit, 1 trailer of wash kits, 369
generators, 605 buses, 5 helicopters, 20 containers of pre-positioned
disaster supplies, 4 Landstar personnel, 135,000 blankets, 13,500 cots,
200 tables, 450 chairs, 2 Gators, 1 ATV, 13 trucks of medical supplies,
2 trailers with cylinders of oxygen, 19 forklifts, 1 24' truck with
lift-gate to transport 1 network wire cage, 260 travel trailers, 1
truckload of veterinary supplies, and thirteen 100-person and nine
50-person Joint Field Office kits. In addition, movement of the
following was requested:
- 1,463 mobile homes
- 16 power units for 50 personal JFO kits
- 5 FAST systems
- 2 NDMS vehicles
- 1 trailer of body bags
- 29,232 rolls of plastic sheeting
- 80,000 disaster meals
- 500 busses
- 50 mobile tankers
- 3 Drash tents
- 7.44 million pounds of ice
- 1 truckload of partitions and tables
- 1,404,000 liters of water
- 1,072,512 MREs

DOT is engaged in organizing a major air evacuation from New Orleans
International Airport to Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX.
Coordination is being conducted with military and commercial airlines,
federal law enforcement, TSA, FAMS, and FEMA. In coordination with
appropriate authorities, local transportation arrangements at both ends
of the airlift are being arranged. Military flights will begin at 0800
CDT, with commercial flights beginning at 12:00 hours CDT. Both
military and commercial flights will continue until the evacuation is
complete.

DOT has continued to work with AMTRAK on their provision of two trains
proposed to operate between downtown New Orleans and Lafayette as an
additional evacuation asset. As with the airlift operation, ground
transport at both ends is being arranged.

DOT is assisting with timely permitting for transport of the 460 mobile
homes that will originate from the East Coast. DOT is coordinating
with various states for weekend and holiday restriction waivers.

DOT continues to provide information on road condition/status to DOD
USTRANSCOM.

DOT has instituted a process of regular reporting on the flow status of
buses engaged in the bus evacuation of New Orleans. DOT receives
hourly reports on this effort, and multiple authorities are controlling
dispersal of vehicles.

======================== CUT HERE ========================

[Matt Whiting]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Gary Drescher wrote:
>>
>>>"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
>>>>why you mainly see black people on the roofs. It doesn't help the agenda
>>>>nearly as much to show a balanced cross section of those in desparate
>>>>straits.
>>>
>>>
>>>Huh? Are you actually not aware that the vast majority of people stranded
>>>in New Orleans are black? You think the journalists are just hiding the
>>>pictures of the white folks when they pan their cameras down the streets
>>>or around the stadium?
>>
>>Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
>>shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media shows
>>what is controversial rather than what actually is?
>
>
> The news media craves dramatic imagery. Every available photograph of people
> stranded on the roofs of nearly submerged houses is dramatic enough to get
> wide circulation. Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos
> of white people on rooftops?

It wouldn't surprise me at all. How many stories or photos have you
seen from Iraq that show anything postive there? Virtually none. Do
you believe that the only things happening in Iraq are car bombs? You
would if you watched only the national media in the USA. I see no
reason to suspect anything different vis-a-vis the coverage of the
Katrina disaster.


> More importantly, do you have a shred of *evidence* to support such a
> supposition? (For example, have you found such suppressed photos in the
> right-wing news outlets or blogs?) And can you explain why the images of the
> hurricane victims more generally (apart from the handful of available
> rooftop photos) do *not* exclude the minority of white victims, if there's a
> liberal conspiracy to show only the black ones?

The evidence is a long history of bias. There have also been severals
studies of this, but I don't have any at my finger tips.


> It's not enough that the victims of this natural disaster are being blamed
> by some. You've even figured out a way to blame the news media for *showing*
> the victims if the victims are disproportionately black.

I've not blamed the victims of this disaster. I do blame the local and
state governments primarily and definitely believe the media coverage
has been pathetic, but the latter is no surprise as this has been the
case for at least 20 years and I seldom watch the national media any
longer other than Fox. Fox at least tries to give the appearance of
balance, which is more than ABC, NBC, CBS or, especially, CNN even
attempt. After seeing things like the fabricated exploding Chevrolet
truck gas tanks, I have 0% confidence in what I see on any of these
networks.


Matt

[Gary Drescher]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> The news media craves dramatic imagery. Every available photograph of
>> people stranded on the roofs of nearly submerged houses is dramatic
>> enough to get wide circulation. Do you really suppose the media is
>> suppressing the photos of white people on rooftops?
>
> It wouldn't surprise me at all. How many stories or photos have you seen
> from Iraq that show anything postive there? Virtually none. Do you
> believe that the only things happening in Iraq are car bombs? You would
> if you watched only the national media in the USA. I see no reason to
> suspect anything different vis-a-vis the coverage of the Katrina disaster.

In other words, you asserted as fact that the news media have selectively
ignored photo opportunities involving white victims on rooftops, when in
reality you have no evidence that any such practice occurred.

Rather, you made that imaginary factual assertion simply because such
behavior by the media would fit your extremely biased model of news media
bias; therefore, you assume that it must have actually occurred.

(And that assumption, in turn, reinforces your presumption of media bias,
which in turn will lead you to allege other such practices without actual
evidence. You're stuck in a feedback loop caused by your willingness to
believe and assert things without specific evidence, just because the
assertions fit your worldview. Your methodology guarantees that you will see
what you *expect* to see, whether it's there or not.)

In reality, passing up the opportunity to show sensational photos would be
contrary to all known practices of the corporate news media, and also
contrary to their actual practices now with regard to the hurricane victims
*not* on rooftops. (Also, the percentage of blacks shown in the handful of
rooftop photos is about the same as the percentage of blacks shown in the
handful of TV-looting photos. Would you care to explain how the latter could
be motivated by "liberal bias"?)

As for national coverage of Iraq, I don't know what newspapers you read, but
all the mainstream national publications *I'm* aware of prominently cover
every alleged achievement trumpeted by the US government (from "Mission
Accomplished" onward), while systematically underplaying the horrific
devastation that our counterinsurgency campaign has inflicted on Iraqis.
This pro-US-government bias contrasts sharply with the more balanced
coverage seen in much of the foreign press. If you watched only the national
media in the USA, you'd think most Iraqi civilian casualties were inflicted
by the anti-occupation forces.

For detailed documentation of the 25,000 Iraqi civilians whose killings
have been specifically reported so far--as with any ongoing disaster, likely
just a fraction of the actual total--see
http://reports.iraqbodycount.org/a_dossier_of_civilian_casualties_2003-2005.pdf
and the associated online database. Then tell me if you've come across this
information on Fox News.

--Gary

[AES]

In article . com>,
wrote:

>
> FWIW:
>
> In an unrelated story, I received the following transportation-centric
> e-mail two days ago, making it somewhat out-of-date. It's very long (9
> page word doc pasted below as ASCII test), but perhaps it might have
> some useful info for folks. There's some aviation info in there, so I
> guess it's marginally on-topic for the newsgroups.
>

And thank you *very* much for passing it along.

And as I quickly scanned down through it, then saved it to my laptop
desktop for after-dinner reading tonite, I wondered:

* Will the average, non-newsgroup-reading, only TV-watching and USA
Today-reading U.S. adult have any real comprehension of the kind of
information that's in this document?

* Will the average allegedly informed, allegedly knowledgeable
**media** person -- TV reporter, anchor person, newspaper journalist --
in other words, the people all the rest of us are supposed to depend on
for news, information,a nd education -- actually have any substantial
knowledge of the kind of information in this document?

I doubt it.

[Dan Luke]

"Matt Whiting" wrote:
>> Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos of white
>> people on rooftops?
>
> It wouldn't surprise me at all.

That's downright paranoid.

Get a grip, Matt. CNN/Fox/NBC would *love* some white folks on a
rooftop. Most of their audience is white, and people love to watch
stories about people like themselves; it's money in the bank for tv
news.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Happy Dog]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote

> I've not blamed the victims of this disaster. I do blame the local and
> state governments

Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you learn
the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way *opposite*
to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural disaster as an
opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are trying to help is
*exactly* what you should expect from people who have socially evolved over
decades to live off the efforts of others. It isn't politically correct to
say this but most of the people carting off alcohol and TV sets instead of
essential supplies have lived as wards of the welfare state, and quite
happily so, for their entire lives.

http://www.intellectualactivist.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

moo

[gregg]

Dan Luke wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>> Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos of white
>>> people on rooftops?
>>
>> It wouldn't surprise me at all.
>
> That's downright paranoid.
>
> Get a grip, Matt. CNN/Fox/NBC would *love* some white folks on a
> rooftop. Most of their audience is white, and people love to watch
> stories about people like themselves; it's money in the bank for tv
> news.
>

To get some indication of the truth of this issue, one needs to start with
answers to the following questions (in my opinion):

1) What is the ratio of white to non whote in the parish you are discussing?

2) What is the ratio of poor white to poor non-white in the same areas?

3) Is it reasonable to expect that the number of whites vs non-whites shown
on TV should reflect those ratios?


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[gregg]

Dan Luke wrote:

>
> "Matt Whiting" wrote:
>>> Do you really suppose the media is suppressing the photos of white
>>> people on rooftops?
>>
>> It wouldn't surprise me at all.
>
> That's downright paranoid.
>
> Get a grip, Matt. CNN/Fox/NBC would *love* some white folks on a
> rooftop. Most of their audience is white, and people love to watch
> stories about people like themselves; it's money in the bank for tv
> news.
>
Actually I think you are wrong. What the media want is the biggest
viewership. They'll do anything to get that. Fomenting a notion of racism
is a great way to get an audience.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[john smith]

Happy Dog wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote
>
>
>>I've not blamed the victims of this disaster. I do blame the local and
>>state governments
>
>
> Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you learn
> the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way *opposite*
> to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural disaster as an
> opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are trying to help is
> *exactly* what you should expect from people who have socially evolved over
> decades to live off the efforts of others. It isn't politically correct to
> say this but most of the people carting off alcohol and TV sets instead of
> essential supplies have lived as wards of the welfare state, and quite
> happily so, for their entire lives.

From this mornings newspaper...
(Read the parts about 20% saying they would stay in their homes during
any storm.)


Warning ignored
Eerily accurate, 2004 exercise predicted fate of New Orleans
Sunday, September 04, 2005
Alan Judd
COX NEWS SERVICE

Hurricane Pam was the big one. With 120-mph winds and 20 inches of rain,
it breached New Orleans’ aged levees, flooded half a million buildings
and stranded thousands of residents in a ruined city below sea level.

Unlike Hurricane Katrina, though, Pam wasn’t real. It was a
computer-generated exercise in July 2004 that provided the latest
confirmation of what researchers, disaster planners and engineers have
contended for decades: New Orleans needed a better response plan for a
catastrophic hurricane.

Years of conferences, computer models, animated simulations and disaster
drills had made it clear what could happen if a major storm struck
southeastern Louisiana.

Still, when Katrina hit last week, disaster authorities were, by all
appearances, horribly illprepared.

Officials couldn’t get tens of thousands of residents to leave
vulnerable coastal regions before the storm, despite mandatory
evacuation orders. In New Orleans, many people were sent to a shelter of
last resort, the Superdome. Conditions there quickly became untenable:
no food, no water, no electricity, no medical care, no working restrooms.

With hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people dead, and with relief slow
in coming, the city descended into what the New Orleans newspaper, the
Times-Picayune, called ‘‘mayhem and madness."

Such chaos, hurricane experts said, was both predictable and preventable.

‘‘We pretty much knew this would happen somewhere along the line," said
Gregory W. Stone, director of the Coastal Studies Institute at Louisiana
State University. He is among the scientists who have issued dire
warnings for years.

‘‘A lot of that has not been taken seriously" by the federal government,
Stone said. ‘‘That’s a regrettable thing to say."

Rep. Bennie G. Thompson of Mississippi, the ranking Democrat on the
House Homeland Security Committee, concurred.

The government has shown ‘‘not much of a commitment to this issue,"
Thompson said. Congress will investigate whether the suffering caused by
Katrina could have been avoided, or at least mitigated, he said.

‘‘Why aren’t we prepared for that kind of occurrence?"

When the University of New Orleans surveyed the city’s residents about
their personal hurricane evacuation plans last year, it found that many
people had none.

More than one in five of those surveyed said they would stay at home,
even during a major storm. Researchers estimated that at least 100,000
New Orleans residents had no means to evacuate: no car, not enough money
for airfare or a bus ticket, no friends or family to help them leave town.

‘‘They knew they were going to have a large number of people who weren’t
going to be able to get out on their own," said Jay Baker, a geography
professor who studies hurricanes at Florida State University.

But authorities apparently never put plans in place to evacuate them
before a storm. Instead, a day before Katrina hit, the city opened its
massive stadium, the Superdome, as a shelter of last resort — nothing
more, Baker said, than ‘‘a place for people to have a better chance to
survive than if they stayed in their homes."

It quickly became obvious that the Superdome was far from an ideal shelter.

‘‘Putting 20,000 to 30,000 people into a facility that will surely lose
power and therefore lose air conditioning and lights, not to mention
begin to get flooded, is not something that’s very appropriate," LSU’s
Stone said. ‘‘These people are trapped like rats."

No one, he said, seemed to consider how quickly conditions at the
stadium would deteriorate. Even as evacuations got under way, reports
from the Superdome and another nearby shelter depicted virtual anarchy:
fighting, filth and bodies of the dead left untended.

‘‘We need to be able to streamline how we move from the occurrence of
the disaster to relief," said Thompson, the Mississippi congressman.
‘‘We probably could have moved more people in faster. That probably
means more military people."

Hurricane experts say shelters should have been opened outside New
Orleans, both for the storm and the duration of the recovery. Officials
say New Orleans could be uninhabitable for six months.

After the Hurricane Pam exercise, authorities said the New Orleans area
would need shelters for just 100 days after a catastrophic storm. Once
the drill was complete, the Federal Emergency Management Agency hired a
consulting firm to develop recommendations. Well into the second
hurricane season since the drill, no final report from the firm has been
publicly released.

On ABC-TV Thursday, President Bush acknowledged the ‘‘frustration" of
New Orleans residents, but said, ‘‘I don’t think anyone anticipated the
breach of the levees."

In fact, such a failure has been forecast for years.

Since 2000, the Army Corps of Engineers has been studying the idea of
reinforcing the levees to withstand a Category 5 storm, the strongest on
the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale. The 300 miles of existing levees, at
17 feet, were designed to protect New Orleans — parts of which are as
much as 10 feet below sea level — from no more than a Category 3 hurricane.

‘‘We certainly understood the potential impact of a Category 4 or 5
hurricane," Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the corps’ chief of engineers, told
reporters Thursday in a telephone briefing.

Last spring, the Army engineers’ New Orleans office complained that
budget cuts proposed by the Bush administration and approved by Congress
‘‘will prevent the corps from addressing these pressing needs."

Thompson said the corps’ arguments contain ‘‘significant merit."

‘‘What concerns me is the fact that for the last several budgets, the
president has pretty much zeroed out a lot of the corps’ work," Thompson
said. ‘‘We (in Congress) always had to go back in and try to help. I
have not seen flood control as a real priority in this president’s budgets."

The levee construction is one of two massive public-works projects that
hurricane experts say could have protected New Orleans from Katrina.

Since 1990, Louisiana’s congressional delegation has sought funding — a
total of $14 billion — to restore the state’s coastal marshes and
barrier islands. Scientists say the marshes and islands act as a first
line of defense for New Orleans and the region’s other populated areas
by absorbing much of a storm’s force.

Built to prevent incessant flooding, the New Orleans levees also
interrupted the natural flow of water to the marshes south of the city.
Before the levees were built, that flow carried sediment that could
restore the wetlands, which are under constant barrage from waves and wind.

According to LSU’s Hurricane Center, which has studied the matter
extensively, more than 1 million acres of wetlands have disappeared
since 1930. LSU scientists estimate that the area is losing 28,000 acres
a year — the equivalent of a football field every half-hour.

‘‘At the start of every new hurricane season on June 1," Stone said,
‘‘Louisiana has become more vulnerable to storm surge inundation and
surge damage than it was the previous hurricane season."

Yet, 15 years after the restoration began, Congress has appropriated
just $540 million of the $14 billion needed to complete the project.

‘‘This is a regrettable demonstration of ignoring the magnitude of the
problem," Stone said. ‘‘That could well have retarded some of the water
finding its way" into the city.

‘‘What’s been missing is a sense of urgency," said Rep. Bobby Jindal,
R-La., a longtime proponent of coastal restoration. After Katrina, he
said, ‘‘hopefully, it will help us convince people who weren’t convinced
before."

Some scientists, along with public officials, have questioned whether
the project’s benefits would be worth its cost.

Stone, referring to some of the worst casualty estimates, put it in
starker terms: ‘‘How do you weigh the economic value against four or
five or six thousand deaths?"

[Happy Dog]

"john smith" > wrote in message
>> Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you
>> learn the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way
>> *opposite* to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural
>> disaster as an opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are
>> trying to help is *exactly* what you should expect from people who have
>> socially evolved over decades to live off the efforts of others. It
>> isn't politically correct to say this but most of the people carting off
>> alcohol and TV sets instead of essential supplies have lived as wards of
>> the welfare state, and quite happily so, for their entire lives.
>
> From this mornings newspaper...
> (Read the parts about 20% saying they would stay in their homes during any
> storm.)

Sure. I might have been one of them. Although probably not in New Orleans.
Maybe you too. But I would wouldn't be looting stores or whining about the
government's failure to protect me from my own stupidity. I'd be responding
the way I would expect myself to in an emergency. To the best of my
abilities. And, assuming I survived, rethinking my strategy for next time.

A sizable percentage of the people who remained look forward to capitalizing
on this sort of thing.

The government is not my nanny.

moo

[Gary Drescher]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
> Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you
> learn the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way
> *opposite* to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural
> disaster as an opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are
> trying to help is *exactly* what you should expect from people who have
> socially evolved over decades to live off the efforts of others.

"Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the predatory
violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is your evidence?
If you have none, then how *dare* you characterize the behavior of a tiny
minority as though it were typical of the larger group? That is the
*essence* of pernicious sterotyping.

> It isn't politically correct to say this but most of the people carting
> off alcohol and TV sets instead of essential supplies have lived as wards
> of the welfare state, and quite happily so, for their entire lives.

What is incorrect--not just politically, but also morally, logically, and
intellectually--is to make accusatory claims that are founded on nothing but
derogatory stereotypes, feeling no obligation to find or present supporting
evidence, and yet to misrepresent those assertions as established fact, both
in your own mind and in your rhetoric. What is, in fact, morally and
intellectually *bankrupt* is for a "personal responsibility" advocate to
hide under a hood of anonymity to avoid taking any personal responsibility
for his unfounded public accusations against his favorite scapegoats.

--Gary

[Dan Luke]

"gregg" wrote:

>> Get a grip, Matt. CNN/Fox/NBC would *love* some white folks on a
>> rooftop. Most of their audience is white, and people love to watch
>> stories about people like themselves; it's money in the bank for tv
>> news.
>>
> Actually I think you are wrong. What the media want is the biggest
> viewership. They'll do anything to get that. Fomenting a notion of
> racism
> is a great way to get an audience.

So you, as well, believe that the tv networks conspired to conceal the
presence of stranded white victims?

[George Patterson]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
> shown on a roof waiting.

I haven't watched TV in years. I've been getting my visual input from the AP
feed. That seems to be more balanced than what you describe.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[TL]

Gary, although you are correct and your arguments very well stated,
I'm sure you realize that you will not change the minds of those whose
view of reality is clouded by their racism. Still, I think it is
important to not let such fools have the only word here. I am pleased
that you have entered the fray. The level of disconnect from reality
of a handful of posters here is astounding. They see a hundred
looters and can not dissociate them from the 50+ thousand law abiding
residents who have done exactly as instructed through five days of
incredible hardship.


"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

>"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
>> Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you
>> learn the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way
>> *opposite* to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural
>> disaster as an opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are
>> trying to help is *exactly* what you should expect from people who have
>> socially evolved over decades to live off the efforts of others.
>
>"Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the predatory
>violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is your evidence?
>If you have none, then how *dare* you characterize the behavior of a tiny
>minority as though it were typical of the larger group? That is the
>*essence* of pernicious sterotyping.
>
>> It isn't politically correct to say this but most of the people carting
>> off alcohol and TV sets instead of essential supplies have lived as wards
>> of the welfare state, and quite happily so, for their entire lives.
>
>What is incorrect--not just politically, but also morally, logically, and
>intellectually--is to make accusatory claims that are founded on nothing but
>derogatory stereotypes, feeling no obligation to find or present supporting
>evidence, and yet to misrepresent those assertions as established fact, both
>in your own mind and in your rhetoric. What is, in fact, morally and
>intellectually *bankrupt* is for a "personal responsibility" advocate to
>hide under a hood of anonymity to avoid taking any personal responsibility
>for his unfounded public accusations against his favorite scapegoats.
>
>--Gary
>

[TL]

Matt Whiting > wrote:

>Yes, that is what the liberal media would have you believe and that is
>why you mainly see black people on the roofs.

The video you speak of is pooled video from a photo journalist in a
helicopter flying around taking pictures of people being plucked from
rooftops. If that video shows mostly blacks being plucked from the
rooftops it is because most of the people being plucked from the
rooftops are black, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
Furthermore, I've seen a significant number of white people being
plucked from the rooftops so your conspiracy theory is nothing but
more of your inane racist bull****.

>If you
>really believe that what you are seeing on TV from the areas devastated
>by Katrina is representative, then I feel very sorry for you as you have
>been duped to the highest degree.

The fellow who killfiled you earlier today was correct, you are a
bigoted idiot! In truth, the TV news coverage has been quite balanced
in showing the devastation and the recovery efforts in the city of New
Orleans and points west such as Waveland, Gulfport, and Biloxi. The
reason you see lots of people being plucked from the rooftops in New
Orleans is because news agencies naturally seek dramatic visuals.
Despite a proclivity for showing dramatic visuals, the coverage has
been quite balanced and complete.

If one good thing has emerged from this thread, it is the emergence of
previously quite posters who have effectively refuted a handful of
newsgroup idiots, such as you, whose bigotry clouds their reason.

[TL]

Gary, it is refreshing to see normally quite posters, such a you,
intelligently rebutting a handful of demonstrably narrow-minded and
bigoted talking heads.


"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

>Yes. It's important--and, often, ultimately effective--to speak out against
>evil, even if the direct targets of your speech are unlikely to be
>persuaded.
>
>I've never had any illusion about what lurks just beneath the
>public-relations veneer of "compassionate conservatism", so I'm not
>surprised to see the giddy orgy of self-righteous disparagement here (and
>elsewhere) that's being directed against the black underclass in the wake of
>the hurricane's devastation; the right wing's ascendancy has led to some
>unusually unguarded commentary.
>
>I do hope and expect, though, that as the inhumane victim-blaming cruelty of
>the right-wing agenda makes itself more boldly visible, their "let them eat
>cake" sentiment toward compatriots in a dire emergency will prove
>sufficiently shocking and revolting to most people to create a political
>turning point.
>
>--Gary

[Happy Dog]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in
>> Many of the victims are to blame. Doesn't it give you pause when you
>> learn the extent to which the people left there are behaving in a way
>> *opposite* to what you would do or expect others to do? Using a natural
>> disaster as an opportunity to plunder and rape and attack those that are
>> trying to help is *exactly* what you should expect from people who have
>> socially evolved over decades to live off the efforts of others.
>
> "Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the
> predatory violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is
> your evidence?

Evidence? Please. It's a veritable war zone. Res ipsa loquitor.

> If you have none, then how *dare* you

Inherent bravery. I'm touched you noticed...

characterize the behavior of a tiny
> minority as though it were typical of the larger group? That is the
> *essence* of pernicious sterotyping.
>
>> It isn't politically correct to say this but most of the people carting
>> off alcohol and TV sets instead of essential supplies have lived as wards
>> of the welfare state, and quite happily so, for their entire lives.
>
> What is incorrect--not just politically, but also morally, logically, and
> intellectually--is to make accusatory claims that are founded on nothing
> but derogatory stereotypes, feeling no obligation to find or present
> supporting evidence, and yet to misrepresent those assertions as
> established fact, both in your own mind and in your rhetoric. What is, in
> fact, morally and intellectually *bankrupt* is for a "personal
> responsibility" advocate to hide under a hood of anonymity to avoid taking
> any personal responsibility for his unfounded public accusations against
> his favorite scapegoats.

Comment:

Make up your mind. Maybe I'm not so daring after all. And, I post from an
ISP. I'm not anonymous. But I do understand that you feel that something
should be done about people like me. My opinions are worth exactly what you
pay. But they're usually correct. The "derogatory stereotypes" are a
figment you defend. To opine that many victims are not masters of their
demise or that the social conditions which are making relief efforts a
secondary concern are mostly the fault of a government that doesn't care
enough is stupid.

moo

The rules of engagement are hard to enforce,
when the illusion of conflict meets the illusion of force.

G. Downey

[cjcampbell]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:_1sSe.4062$aG.3295@trndny01...
> > Blanche wrote:
> >>
> >> You are insensitive and arrogant.
> >
> > and probably too stupid to listen to you. Thanks for trying.
>
> Yes. It's important--and, often, ultimately effective--to speak out against
> evil, even if the direct targets of your speech are unlikely to be
> persuaded.
>
> I've never had any illusion about what lurks just beneath the
> public-relations veneer of "compassionate conservatism", so I'm not
> surprised to see the giddy orgy of self-righteous disparagement here (and
> elsewhere) that's being directed against the black underclass in the wake of
> the hurricane's devastation; the right wing's ascendancy has led to some
> unusually unguarded commentary.
>
> I do hope and expect, though, that as the inhumane victim-blaming cruelty of
> the right-wing agenda makes itself more boldly visible, their "let them eat
> cake" sentiment toward compatriots in a dire emergency will prove
> sufficiently shocking and revolting to most people to create a political
> turning point.
>

Personally, I find it just as offensive to suggest a secret 'agenda' by
a "compassionate conservative" conspiracy as it is to suggest an
opposite 'agenda' by a "liberal media." There are conservative racists,
and there are liberal racists. I don't like and don't agree with either
kind. I don't think you can assume that someone who is a "conservative"
on some issues is a racist, any more than you can assume that someone
who is a "liberal" on some issues is not. Most people are far more
complex than that.

While I see much of the media being intent on stirring up controversy
in order to increase viewership, I do not think that it is entirely
because of liberal bias. Rather, playing the race card is worth big
money, and the news media love getting people to kill each other for
fun and profit (the fun and profit of the news media, of course). In
this regard, CNN Asia has been downright evenhanded compared to BBC
World, which has been sickening. To be honest, the most balanced
reporting around here has been coming from the communist Chinese....

I really don't get the bit about the media showing only black people on
rooftops. Even BBC has been showing people of all types on rooftops,
getting rescued, looting, etc.

I also don't get the media complaints of the slowness of the response.
The first camera crews on the scene showed Coast Guard helicopters
rescuing people, National Guardsmen, police, and fire crews in the
center of New Orleans, etc. Obviously all of these emergency workers
managed to get there before the news media did.

If I was sitting in a pool of filthy water without food, fresh water,
or medical aid, no contact with the outside world and dead bodies
floating around me, completely unaware of conditions in the rest of the
city and the rescue efforts being made there, and some reporter came up
and said no one was coming to help and then turned on the camera and
asked me if I was satisfied with the speed of relief, I probably would
give the reporter just the answer he was looking for. Surprise,
surprise.

[Happy Dog]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:IQNSe.7577$aG.5517@trndny01...
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>>
>> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
>> shown on a roof waiting.
>
> I haven't watched TV in years. I've been getting my visual input from the
> AP feed. That seems to be more balanced than what you describe.

*Groan.* I know so few people who don't watch TV. I watch it a bit when I
travel. But I yanked my cable on 9/12/1. I don't know that it's gotten
more juvenile. Maybe it's just weaning. But I read the CNN website. And,
the odd time I see the TV version, I note that it expands the bit of content
on the website into an hour of tawdry emotion laden wanking.

lm

[Peter Duniho]

"TL" > wrote in message
...
> Gary, although you are correct and your arguments very well stated,
> I'm sure you realize that you will not change the minds of those whose
> view of reality is clouded by their racism. Still, I think it is
> important to not let such fools have the only word here. [...]

His comments probably fall on deaf ears. But I agree with you, I for one am
happy someone has the stamina and motivation to keep up the good fight. I
hate to imagine how bad things would be if no one spoke out in favor of
logic and compassion when presented with the kinds of backward thinking
Gary's been dealing with here.

Pete

[Gary Drescher]

"cjcampbell" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Personally, I find it just as offensive to suggest a secret 'agenda' by
> a "compassionate conservative" conspiracy as it is to suggest an
> opposite 'agenda' by a "liberal media." There are conservative racists,
> and there are liberal racists. I don't like and don't agree with either
> kind. I don't think you can assume that someone who is a "conservative"
> on some issues is a racist, any more than you can assume that someone
> who is a "liberal" on some issues is not. Most people are far more
> complex than that.

No argument there. I do not, by any means, simply equate conservatives with
racists (or liberals with the opposite). And yes, there are certainly many
conservatives who are compassionate. (Even the most egregiously offensive
posters here are likely compassionate in many aspects of their lives. People
are indeed complex.) But I do think "compassionate conservatism", as a
political movement, was engineered to whitewash for public consumption an
ideology whose motivations and effects are, on the whole, anything but
compassionate. (Surely it is not implausibly conspiratorial to suggest that
national political campaigns explicitly try to put an appealing spin on
their messages.)

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> (Surely it is not implausibly conspiratorial to suggest that
> national political campaigns explicitly try to put an appealing spin on
> their messages.)

yes. In fact, all national political campaigns do that, from the most
left-wing liberal stuff to the most right-wing conservative stuff, as well
as all the wacko stuff that wouldn't fit logically into such a spectrum.

and don't call me ... ;-)

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Dan Luke]

"Bob Noel" wrote:
>> (Surely it is not implausibly conspiratorial to suggest that
>> national political campaigns explicitly try to put an appealing spin
>> on
>> their messages.)
>
> yes. In fact, all national political campaigns do that, from the most
> left-wing liberal stuff to the most right-wing conservative stuff, as
> well
> as all the wacko stuff that wouldn't fit logically into such a
> spectrum.

What makes me want to weep is the number of my fellow citizens who fall
for this crap. People seem to yearn to have their prejudices stroked,
and select their information sources accordingly, so that they are not
confronted with anything that might-God forbid-cause them to have to
rethink their views of the world.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Gary Drescher]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in
>> "Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the
>> predatory violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is
>> your evidence?
>
> Evidence? Please.

Yes. Evidence. Please.

> It's a veritable war zone. Res ipsa loquitor.

"Res ipsa loquitor [sic]"? So you think your beliefs in this matter are just
obviously correct, and thus require no evidence? What a profound abrogation
of intellectual responsibility! (Even in a *literal* war zone, there is not
necessarily more than one person in a hundred participating in the
hostilities.)

All that is obvious is that *some* of the stranded N.O. residents have
behaved violently. What I asked, specifically, is whether the percentage is
nonnegligible. You have not been able or willing to articulate any reason to
think so.

--Gary

[Luke Scharf]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
> shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media
> shows what is controversial rather than what actually is?

In the pictures, I can't even *TELL* what race the folks are. They just
look like very wet folks who could use some potable water, a hot meal, a
shower, and a lift to the nearest solid ground.

Why should anyone care about anything else?

-Luke

[Matt Whiting]

Luke Scharf wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>> Majority, yes, 100%, no. I've not seen a white or Hispanic person yet
>> shown on a roof waiting. Are you actually not aware that the media
>> shows what is controversial rather than what actually is?
>
>
> In the pictures, I can't even *TELL* what race the folks are. They just
> look like very wet folks who could use some potable water, a hot meal, a
> shower, and a lift to the nearest solid ground.
>
> Why should anyone care about anything else?

They shouldn't. The sad part of this is that many folks in the media
and politics are claiming that race is playing a role. I find that hard
to believe, but I don't live anywhere near NO so who knows. I don't
think it is at the federal level which is what the claims have mainly
been as Bush clearly did his part even BEFORE the storm hit. I don't
know what else they expected Bush to do without a request from the governor.


Matt

[Happy Dog]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in
>>> "Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the
>>> predatory violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is
>>> your evidence?
>>
>> Evidence? Please.
>
> Yes. Evidence. Please.
>
>> It's a veritable war zone. Res ipsa loquitor.
>
> "Res ipsa loquitor [sic]"? So you think your beliefs in this matter are
> just obviously correct, and thus require no evidence?

Yes. The word I used was "many". Look it up. I made no mention of a
percentage. You did, in a lame attempt to claim I'm a bigoted anonymous
coward. Idiot.

moo

[Gary Drescher]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in
>>>> "Many" of the victims are to blame? *How* many have engaged in the
>>>> predatory violence you refer to? Even one in a hundred? If so, what is
>>>> your evidence?
>>>
>>> Evidence? Please.
>>
>> Yes. Evidence. Please.
>>
>>> It's a veritable war zone. Res ipsa loquitor.
>>
>> "Res ipsa loquitor [sic]"? So you think your beliefs in this matter are
>> just obviously correct, and thus require no evidence?
>
> Yes. The word I used was "many". Look it up. I made no mention of a
> percentage. You did,

Right. I *asked* you if you had evidence of violence by even one percent of
the victims, in an attempt to understand why you characterized the violence
as "what you should expect" from people who receive public assistance. And
in response to that question about the percentage, your reply (translated
from the misspelled Latin) was: "Evidence? Please... It's self-evident.".

--Gary

[Happy Dog]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in
>>> "Res ipsa loquitor [sic]"? So you think your beliefs in this matter are
>>> just obviously correct, and thus require no evidence?
>>
>> Yes. The word I used was "many". Look it up. I made no mention of a
>> percentage. You did,
>
> Right. I *asked* you if you had evidence of violence by even one percent
> of the victims, in an attempt to understand why you characterized the
> violence as "what you should expect" from people who receive public
> assistance. And in response to that question about the percentage, your
> reply (translated from the misspelled Latin) was: "Evidence? Please...
> It's self-evident.".

I'm always touched by the occasional dweebish tactic of repeated using a
typo to bolster a bull**** argument. I used the word "many" in reference to
victims who mastered their own misfortune. I made no mention of
percentages. You seem to think it's incumbent upon me to do this and that a
failure to meet your expectations diminishes my valid and self-evident
point. My references to welfare cases did not disparage the entire group
nor did I refer to them as one nor do I think that the majority are social
leeches. I referred to a subset of from whom I would expect the observed
behavior. And, I said that most of the people carting off TV sets and
alcohol instead of essential supplies were wards of the welfare state.
We'll see. And, to that, you responded with a paragraph that consisted
entirely of a personal attack. Got anything else?

moo

[Gary Drescher]

"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
...
> My references to welfare cases did not disparage the entire group nor did
> I refer to them as one nor do I think that the majority are social
> leeches. I referred to a subset of from whom I would expect the observed
> behavior.

If that was your intent, then your sentiment was indeed less extreme than
your original phrasing (asking rhetorically, "what should you expect" from
welfare recipients?) suggested.

But even if you merely meant to suggest that receiving welfare payments
caused an elevated level of violence in a *minute fraction* of recipients in
N.O., your assertion is still unfairly issued without any
foundation--indeed, without even any *attempt* to provide a foundation. You
have not even shown that there *is* a higher level of violence in N.O. than
in other dire emergencies in the world in which civil authority collapsed
(in the absence of any history of welfare support)--let alone showing that
welfare support is the *cause* of the supposedly higher level of violence in
N.O.

For what it's worth, I think a much more plausible speculation (but only a
speculation) about the social policies underlying the violence is that it's
partly fallout from drug prohibition. The most combat-like violence in N.O.
seems to be coming from the organized criminal gangs. And we know from our
alcohol-prohibition era that such prohibitions readily promote runaway
organized crime that can ravage cities with violence even in the absence of
widespread disasters. (Or do you attribute the rise of the Mafia to welfare
payments, too?)

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> For what it's worth, I think a much more plausible speculation (but only a
> speculation) about the social policies underlying the violence is that it's
> partly fallout from drug prohibition. The most combat-like violence in N.O.
> seems to be coming from the organized criminal gangs. And we know from our
> alcohol-prohibition era that such prohibitions readily promote runaway
> organized crime that can ravage cities with violence even in the absence of
> widespread disasters.

I don't believe prohibitions cause or promote organized crime. The
prohibitions create demand for a product, but organized crime is not
dependent on the prohibition - organized crime will find *something*
even if it has to create it (e.g., "protection").

But at least we can agree that criminal gangs seem to be a primary
source of the violence in New Orleans - even if we can't agree on the
underlying cause(s).

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>> For what it's worth, I think a much more plausible speculation (but only
>> a
>> speculation) about the social policies underlying the violence is that
>> it's
>> partly fallout from drug prohibition. The most combat-like violence in
>> N.O.
>> seems to be coming from the organized criminal gangs. And we know from
>> our
>> alcohol-prohibition era that such prohibitions readily promote runaway
>> organized crime that can ravage cities with violence even in the absence
>> of
>> widespread disasters.
>
> I don't believe prohibitions cause or promote organized crime. The
> prohibitions create demand for a product, but organized crime is not
> dependent on the prohibition - organized crime will find *something*
> even if it has to create it (e.g., "protection").

Prohibited alcohol and other drugs are an especially lucrative source of
illegal income. That they are not the *only* source does not imply that they
don't significantly fuel the rise of violent gangs.

--Gary

[George Patterson]

Happy Dog wrote:
>
> But I yanked my cable on 9/12/1.

They had a ratings war in 1980. I chased my favorite shows (like WKRP) through
the different time slots. The next year, I started graduate school, which left
me little time for television. I just never got back into the habit.

And it is a habit. I know me, and I will sit down and watch anything if there's
a TV going in the room. Now, I deliberately avoid it.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> What makes me want to weep is the number of my fellow citizens who fall
> for this crap. People seem to yearn to have their prejudices stroked,
> and select their information sources accordingly, so that they are not
> confronted with anything that might-God forbid-cause them to have to
> rethink their views of the world.

I like P.J. O'Roarke's take on this. He's conservative. He listens to things
like NPR. He says there's no reason for him to just listen to people who think
just like he does.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> Prohibited alcohol and other drugs are an especially lucrative source of
> illegal income.

true.

> That they are not the *only* source does not imply that they
> don't significantly fuel the rise of violent gangs.

Are you saying that making drugs legal would be a net benefit
to society?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>> Prohibited alcohol and other drugs are an especially lucrative source of
>> illegal income.
>
> true.
>
>> That they are not the *only* source does not imply that they
>> don't significantly fuel the rise of violent gangs.
>
> Are you saying that making drugs legal would be a net benefit
> to society?

Aren't we off-topic enough already without launching *that* debate? :)

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> > Are you saying that making drugs legal would be a net benefit
> > to society?
>
> Aren't we off-topic enough already without launching *that* debate? :)

way more than enough.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Trent Moorehead]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> They shouldn't. The sad part of this is that many folks in the media
> and politics are claiming that race is playing a role. I find that hard
> to believe, but I don't live anywhere near NO so who knows. I don't
> think it is at the federal level which is what the claims have mainly
> been as Bush clearly did his part even BEFORE the storm hit. I don't
> know what else they expected Bush to do without a request from the
governor.

The mayor of New Orleans says the governor of Louisiana hesitated to pull
the trigger on Federal aid for 24 hours.

With all the blame flying around, I am amazed that the state and local
governments have escaped it thus far. It is my opinion that this is where
the majority of the blame should reside, at least in New Orleans.

The folks fanning the racial flames ought to be downright ashamed of
themselves too. They didn't help things one little bit. Hull of a slave ship
indeed. Reverend Jackson is such a uniter and healer. Someone asked him if
he would make the same comment if the refugees were white. I thought that
was funny. I don't remember his response, but it was funny to me because he
wouldn't *be there* if they were white.

It is pretty simple. Huge hurricane + unprepared vulnerable area +
incompetent local government = HUGE disaster. I can't see where race enters
into it. I can see where socio-economic class does though, but the race
issue is a red herrring in this situation.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Dave Stadt]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > They shouldn't. The sad part of this is that many folks in the media
> > and politics are claiming that race is playing a role. I find that hard
> > to believe, but I don't live anywhere near NO so who knows. I don't
> > think it is at the federal level which is what the claims have mainly
> > been as Bush clearly did his part even BEFORE the storm hit. I don't
> > know what else they expected Bush to do without a request from the
> governor.
>
> The mayor of New Orleans says the governor of Louisiana hesitated to pull
> the trigger on Federal aid for 24 hours.
>
> With all the blame flying around, I am amazed that the state and local
> governments have escaped it thus far. It is my opinion that this is where
> the majority of the blame should reside, at least in New Orleans.
>
> The folks fanning the racial flames ought to be downright ashamed of
> themselves too. They didn't help things one little bit. Hull of a slave
ship
> indeed. Reverend Jackson is such a uniter and healer. Someone asked him if
> he would make the same comment if the refugees were white. I thought that
> was funny. I don't remember his response, but it was funny to me because
he
> wouldn't *be there* if they were white.

Just remember, if there are no more race relations problems Jesse is out of
a job and out of the TV spotlight. He has no incentive to fix anything.
Making things worse suits him just fine. Spend some time in his home town
if you want real insight into his antics. Often those claiming to be the
uniters and healers are at the top of the racist heap.

[George Patterson]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> Spend some time in his home town
> if you want real insight into his antics.

I lived there for 9 years and that's the way things looked then.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[cjcampbell]

Dave Stadt wrote:
..
>
> Just remember, if there are no more race relations problems Jesse is out of
> a job and out of the TV spotlight. He has no incentive to fix anything.
> Making things worse suits him just fine. Spend some time in his home town
> if you want real insight into his antics. Often those claiming to be the
> uniters and healers are at the top of the racist heap.

All of this may be true. If space aliens invaded the planet, CNN could
count on Jesse Jackson to issue a statement blaming it all on racism.

Nevertheless, just because Jesse Jackson says that racism has played a
part in the suffering in New Orleans does not mean he is wrong. I think
racism has a great deal to do with poverty, ignorance, and the
breakdown of social and family structures in the city. I would even go
so far as to claim that many of these problems stem from people who,
with perfectly good intentions, have been attempting to help people
they genuinely believed incapable of helping themselves. Racism was at
the heart of creating a dependency culture in New Orleans, and this is
the result. Come to think of it, even Jesse Jackson has said something
like that from time to time. Maybe he is a closet conservative. :-)