'Renting' my plane.

[N93332]

I have a '46 Ercoupe that can be flown under Sport Pilot rules. I have a
couple friends that are interested in 'renting' my plane. One is my cousin
who has ATP and CFI ratings and the other hasn't renewed his medical lately
so he'd like to fly it under the Sport. I have let my cousin borrow my plane
and give the other friend a checkout.

What can/should I charge my friends for borrowing my plane? Just the cost of
fuel/oil? Or should it be something like $25 dry or $50 wet (it gets about
5gph-tach time)? Both friends say they want to be able to borrow the plane
in the future. I checked my insurance policy and it says that I can allow
any current pilot to fly my plane but I don't want to get into the 'rental'
insurance costs.

I'm also considering adding Sport Pilot CFI to my private certificate and
doing some training in my Ercoupe. I have the hours in my plane and just
need to study to take the tests. This, too, would be for training my (other)
friends to fly my Ercoupe.

Or should I just forget about 'renting' it, let friends fly the plane and
eat the costs???

-Greg B.

[john smith]

Form a flying club and lease back the aircraft to the club.
Be advised, you insurance cost will at minimum, double.

[N93332]

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Form a flying club and lease back the aircraft to the club.
> Be advised, you insurance cost will at minimum, double.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I bought my Ercoupe a few years ago from a 'club'. There were 6 owners
originally in that club and I purchased it from the remaining owner. I'll
chat with him to see what they did in that club for insurance, 'rental',
maintenance, hangar rent, etc., to get some ideas if I want to club out my
plane, again.

My insurance policy states that any current pilot can fly my aircraft with
my permission. I'd like to find out the options of lending (and charging?)
my plane to friends without having to get additional rental or club
insurance. Both friends (my cousin with CFI/ATP and the Sport Pilot friend)
said they don't want, or need, to 'rent' my plane very often so I doubt that
they would want to join a flying club, but I'll ask them.

-Greg B.

[Jack Allison]

Hey Greg. IMHO, at least have them contribute toward engine and
maintenance. I mean, you're a nice guy and all but every hour flown
costs something. Besides, at 5 gph, anyone should be able to afford
$10-$15/hr. towards your costs. Hope it all works out for the best.

I hear Montblack is in the market for a sport pilot ready plane. You
should have seen him drooling over every Ercoupe we saw at Oshkosh. "No
Paul...let go of the plane, walk away...once you actually learn how to
fly, *then* think about buying. Sorry Mr. Ercoupe owner, he's always
like this. I'm sure the drool stains will wash right off. It won't
happen again. Yes, I'll make sure he doesn't get off his meds again". :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[N93332]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Greg. IMHO, at least have them contribute toward engine and
> maintenance. I mean, you're a nice guy and all but every hour flown costs
> something. Besides, at 5 gph, anyone should be able to afford $10-$15/hr.
> towards your costs. Hope it all works out for the best.

Thanks. That's why I'm leaning towards charging my friends somewhere around
$25 dry or $50 wet to borrow my plane.

> I hear Montblack is in the market for a sport pilot ready plane. You
> should have seen him drooling over every Ercoupe we saw at Oshkosh. "No
> Paul...let go of the plane, walk away...once you actually learn how to
> fly, *then* think about buying. Sorry Mr. Ercoupe owner, he's always like
> this. I'm sure the drool stains will wash right off. It won't happen
> again. Yes, I'll make sure he doesn't get off his meds again". :-)

Maybe I shouldn't offer Paul a ride??? ;-) I'd consider flying up to ANE
(90nm from JYG) but I don't have a transponder to get around or near MSP's
class B.

On a different topic (kinda), what should I charge as a Sport Pilot CFI?
Talking with someone at FSDO says that a sport pilot CFI with only a private
certificate can charge for the training. I suppose it'll depend if there's
any market for (Ercoupe) sport pilots in the area. I still have to study for
the tests anyways so it'll be a while before I get the SP-CFI added.

-Greg B.

[Jack Allison]

N93332 wrote:
>
> On a different topic (kinda), what should I charge as a Sport Pilot CFI?
> Talking with someone at FSDO says that a sport pilot CFI with only a private
> certificate can charge for the training. I suppose it'll depend if there's
> any market for (Ercoupe) sport pilots in the area. I still have to study for
> the tests anyways so it'll be a while before I get the SP-CFI added.
Hmmm, good question. My last CFII and the guy I'm going to be flying
with soon both charge $35/hr. Now, does this mean that a sport pilot
CFI with a private certificate should charge less? Good question and
one that I'm certainly not qualified to answer. Good luck with the
SP-CFI thing. It will be interesting to hear how that all works out for
you.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[George Patterson]

N93332 wrote:
>
> Or should I just forget about 'renting' it, let friends fly the plane and
> eat the costs???

When I was working on my tailwheel training, a friend of mine had a Cessna 140.
I don't know what hoops he had to jump through, but he rented me that aircraft.
I *do* remember that I had to pay him and the CFI separately. He charged me
about what a Cessna 150 would've cost from the FBO - maybe a little more. In any
case, renting for your actual cost should be doable.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Montblack]

("Jack Allison" wrote)
[snip]
> I hear Montblack is in the market for a sport pilot ready plane. You
> should have seen him drooling over every Ercoupe we saw at Oshkosh. "No
> Paul...let go of the plane, walk away...once you actually learn how to
> fly, *then* think about buying. Sorry Mr. Ercoupe owner, he's always like
> this. I'm sure the drool stains will wash right off. It won't happen
> again. Yes, I'll make sure he doesn't get off his meds again". :-)


Lesson #1 - Rudder pedals.

Um, what say we skip to the next lesson Sparky!


BTW ...Ikesyay! On'tday entionmay ethay edsmay. <g>


Montblack
Sport Pilot Rocks

[Roy Page]

It is important to remember, that although your insurance will cover YOU for
damage to the plane they may well subrogate the claim to your friend flying
it.
i.e. You will get paid, but they will claim the cost off your friend.
He would need "Renters Insurance" to cover him.

Good luck.

Roy
N5804F

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:zvPSe.7710$aG.6953@trndny01...
> N93332 wrote:
>>
>> Or should I just forget about 'renting' it, let friends fly the plane and
>> eat the costs???
>
> When I was working on my tailwheel training, a friend of mine had a Cessna
> 140. I don't know what hoops he had to jump through, but he rented me that
> aircraft. I *do* remember that I had to pay him and the CFI separately. He
> charged me about what a Cessna 150 would've cost from the FBO - maybe a
> little more. In any case, renting for your actual cost should be doable.
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jack Allison]

Montblack wrote:

> Lesson #1 - Rudder pedals.
Rudder pedals? We don't need no stinking rudder pedals!!! Though,
forward slips to landing are a lot of fun. Nothing like falling out of
the sky like a rock, all the while your airspeed is just fine.
>
> Um, what say we skip to the next lesson Sparky!
Wasn't going there, at least not in a public forum like this :-)
>
>
> BTW ...Ikesyay! On'tday entionmay ethay edsmay. <g>
Wow, that took me a couple of times to read/understand. Much harder
when this is written vs. spoken. Either that or whatever you're taking
has affected your typing. You need help man! Um...but many of us have
known that for a long time. I know, airplane therapy. You need that
light sport plane...it's a matter of life and ... um ... well ... Paul
can actually fly to Oshkosh. Oooooh, that would mean that Jim B. is the
go-to guy for food. Hmmm, not a bad deal really, I mean considering the
spread from this year.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[N93332]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> You need that light sport plane...it's a matter of life and ... um ...
> well ... Paul can actually fly to Oshkosh. Oooooh, that would mean that
> Jim B. is the go-to guy for food. Hmmm, not a bad deal really, I mean
> considering the spread from this year.

Now, I expect to see Paul at Oshkosh with a Sport certificate and an Ercoupe
next year. How much fud could he bring in an Ercoupe??? Just put it where
the rudder pedals would be. ;-)

[Montblack]

("N93332" wrote)
> Now, I expect to see Paul at Oshkosh with a Sport certificate and an
> Ercoupe next year. How much fud could he bring in an Ercoupe??? Just put
> it where the rudder pedals would be. ;-)


How was the flight over?

Well, I was in the soup the entire way :-)


Montblack

[Jack Allison]

> How was the flight over?
>
> Well, I was in the soup the entire way :-)
Hmmm, soup tonight? Suddenly, I'm not hungry...either that or I'm
willing to wait outside of Friar Tucks for an hour.
>



--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[N93332]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
>> How was the flight over?
>>
>> Well, I was in the soup the entire way :-)
> Hmmm, soup tonight? Suddenly, I'm not hungry...either that or I'm willing
> to wait outside of Friar Tucks for an hour.

No soup for you!!! ;-)

[Jack Allison]

N93332 wrote:
>
> No soup for you!!! ;-)
>
>
<sound of palm hitting forehead>...I missed my chance at that one. No
soup for MontBlack! Doesn't have the same ring to it... :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Don Hammer]

Don't forget to do your 100hr inspections if you rent. Test question
- what's the difference between a 100hr and an Annual?

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:29:38 -0500, Don Hammer > wrote:

>
>Don't forget to do your 100hr inspections if you rent. Test question
>- what's the difference between a 100hr and an Annual?

Don't you mean trick question ;)

[George Patterson]

Don Hammer wrote:
> Don't forget to do your 100hr inspections if you rent. Test question
> - what's the difference between a 100hr and an Annual?

Any A&P can sign off the 100 hour. Takes an IA for an annual.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Flyingmonk]

George wrote:
>Any A&P can sign off the 100 hour. Takes an IA for an annual.

Other than what George said above above, isn't the question a given? A
rental/commercial is required to have 100hr inspections and a private
non-commercial only requires an annual.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Blanche Cohen]

Flyingmonk > wrote:
>George wrote:
>>Any A&P can sign off the 100 hour. Takes an IA for an annual.
>
>Other than what George said above above, isn't the question a given? A
>rental/commercial is required to have 100hr inspections and a private
>non-commercial only requires an annual.

Not only that, but has the topic of insurance been mentioned yet? It'll
be 3-4 times what you pay if the aircraft is not on a lease-back.

[N93332]

"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
>>>Any A&P can sign off the 100 hour. Takes an IA for an annual.
>>
>>Other than what George said above above, isn't the question a given? A
>>rental/commercial is required to have 100hr inspections and a private
>>non-commercial only requires an annual.
>
> Not only that, but has the topic of insurance been mentioned yet? It'll
> be 3-4 times what you pay if the aircraft is not on a lease-back.

As far as the 100 hour inspection, it'll depend on if me and my 'renters'
fly my Ercoupe over 100 hours total per year. At this time my plane is
hangared in St James, MN (JYG) and my sport pilot friend and me live in
Fairmont (FRM) so it's a 30 minute drive up to the airport to do any flying
for either of us. My cousin (CFI/ATP) is in Sioux Falls so he won't be
borrowing my plane very often either.My cousin says he wants to borrow my
plane occasionally, maybe 20-30 hours a year. My other friend with the
expired medical wants to fly it under Sport rules and said he'd probably
only fly about 10 hours a year, mostly during summer months and with a CFI
the first few hours each year. Even if I (eventually) do some Sport pilot
training in my plane, I doubt that all of us together will put over 100
hours per year but I'll keep an eye on it and get a 100 hour inspection as
needed.

>>>>I checked my insurance policy and it says that I can allow any current
>>>>pilot to fly my plane but I don't want to get into the 'rental'
>>>>insurance costs.

That's why my friends want to borrow the plane from me and not 'rent' the
plane. I might have to 'club' the plane and add my friends' names to the
insurance policy.

-Greg B.

[N93332]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1126533714.841522@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>> Don't forget to do your 100hr inspections if you rent. Test question
>> - what's the difference between a 100hr and an Annual?
>
> Since you didn't include any context I'm not sure what you're responding
> to, and I haven't read the whole thread, but...
>
> renting, by itself, does not constitute commercial use, and therefore does
> not require 100 hour inspections.

I'm the OP and I originally asked about lending my plane to my friends to
fly occasionally. Not really 'renting' it out but let them borrow it and pay
for the fuel, etc. I then asked about doing Sport Pilot training in my
Ercoupe and that's where the 100 hour inspection concern came up. Looking at
Far 91.409(b) says that a 100 hour inspection is required for instruction in
my plane if I supply the plane. It'll depend on if 100 hours are put on
between annuals.

-Greg B.

[George Patterson]

N93332 wrote:
>
> It'll depend on if 100 hours are put on
> between annuals.

Actually, it would depend on whether you put 100 hours on the plane in 6 months
or less. If you put 100 hours on the plane in, say, 8 months, it would pay to
have an IA sign it off as an annual. If you don't, then you're going to have to
have an annual inspection done in 4 more months.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[N93332]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:LRhVe.5107$sa6.4473@trndny06...
> N93332 wrote:
>>
>> It'll depend on if 100 hours are put on between annuals.
>
> Actually, it would depend on whether you put 100 hours on the plane in 6
> months or less. If you put 100 hours on the plane in, say, 8 months, it
> would pay to have an IA sign it off as an annual. If you don't, then
> you're going to have to have an annual inspection done in 4 more months.

Thanks, George, for that information! If I do get into instruction in my
Ercoupe, I'll keep track as to whether to get it signed as a 100 hour or
annual depending on the timing and usage.

-Greg B.