Our First Katrina Refugees

[Jay Honeck]

We booked our first refugees at the Inn yesterday -- an older couple who had
stayed with us on vacation in the past, and who lost everything in Katrina.

They are living day-to-day, not sure when -- or if -- they'll be able to
return home. When I asked them why they came so far North to stay, they
just shrugged their shoulders and said "Because we like it here..."

So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice... (They
like old prop-driven airliners...)

Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't sound so
good to them:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS08/509070365/1001&lead=1


Here's the story, in case the link expires:
**********************************************
Iowa is ready, evacuees are not

Des Moines Register

September 7, 2005
Iowa is ready to welcome thousands of Hurricane Katrina evacuees - but it
was unclear Tuesday whether any of the people fleeing the Gulf Coast want to
come.

Iowans raced to be ready for hundreds of homeless people who had been
expected to arrive as soon as Tuesday afternoon.

The Iowa National Guard and American Red Cross prepared the Iowa State
Fairgrounds for up to 1,000 people who were expected to come from evacuation
points in Houston. The state has offered to assist up to 5,000 evacuees.

But they didn't come.

Late Tuesday afternoon, Iowa officials spoke with Federal Emergency
Management Agency officials who said they were having a hard time getting
people to leave the evacuation zones in Houston.

"People don't necessarily want to move," Gov. Tom Vilsack told reporters
Tuesday evening. "They are tired. They are frustrated. They want to stay
where they are. So, we're going to give them a breather, and we are going to
see where we are (today)."

Vilsack said evacuees still may come. He and other governors will
participate in a conference call with U.S. Homeland Security Secretary
Michael Chertoff and learn more about the evacuation plans.

"We stand ready and prepared if the call should come," Vilsack said.

It's not just Iowa. Evacuees have rejected accommodations on cruise ships,
for example.

"The folks in Texas are having some difficulty encouraging folks to get on
airplanes and travel to other locations. It's understandable. These people
have been through a lot," Vilsack said. "This is a day-by-day, hour-by-hour
situation."

State officials waited by the phone all day. They had expected a call from
the federal government that evacuees were on their way early Tuesday, state
officials said. It never came.

Nevertheless, Iowa stands ready. The Varied Industries Building at the
fairgrounds has been turned into the main hub for evacuees, who would then
be moved into hotels and homes around the community.
**********************************************
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

Glad to hear they are where they'd rather be.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Icebound]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:U0DTe.315756$_o.224968@attbi_s71...
> We booked our first refugees at the Inn yesterday --

Ya gotta watch more CNN, Jay.

The African-American leaders and the US government are very adamant about
NOT calling the displaced persons as "refugees", but insist on "evacuee", or
some such word.

They seem to feel that "refugee" somehow diminishes the status of these
people.

I am wondering, however, that if that is so, then why is it okay to call the
Sri Lankan, Thai (and other displacements of natural and man-made disasters)
as "refugees"?

Does that not diminish *their* status?

[Gary Drescher]

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:U0DTe.315756$_o.224968@attbi_s71...
>> We booked our first refugees at the Inn yesterday --
>
> Ya gotta watch more CNN, Jay.
>
> The African-American leaders and the US government are very adamant about
> NOT calling the displaced persons as "refugees", but insist on "evacuee",
> or some such word.
>
> They seem to feel that "refugee" somehow diminishes the status of these
> people.
>
> I am wondering, however, that if that is so, then why is it okay to call
> the Sri Lankan, Thai (and other displacements of natural and man-made
> disasters) as "refugees"?
>
> Does that not diminish *their* status?

Merriam-Webster: "refugee: one that flees; especially: a person who flees to
a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution". What's being
objected to is the connotation of having fled from a foreign country;
obviously, that connotation is not objectionable in situations where people
really do flee internationally.

I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.

--Gary

[Robert M. Gary]

Perhaps they think "refugees" won't return but "evacuee" will. In fact,
I would be surprised if 10% of the "evacuee" actually returned. Most of
those that had to flee more recently didn't have much to start with and
may not have much to go back to. People like you and I who would have
something to return home to would have just left well ahead of time and
gotten a hotel. We had a local guy just get back after getting stuck
while on vaction. He said while at the Super Dome he found a whole new
level of human depravity. Many of those people had no respect for human
lives and were just trying to take as much stuff as they could. He even
saw a 10 year old girl get killed. Sounded a lot like a Raider's game.
:)

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:44:04 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote in
<U0DTe.315756$_o.224968@attbi_s71>::

>So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice...

Your generosity in providing Katrina victims with a place to live
without cost is truly commendable.

[Dan Luke]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> Perhaps they think "refugees" won't return but "evacuee" will. In fact,
> I would be surprised if 10% of the "evacuee" actually returned. Most of
> those that had to flee more recently didn't have much to start with and
> may not have much to go back to.

The governor of Texas has got to be wondering, about now, just what the long
term repercussions are going to be for Houston and other of his cities. Of
course, in today's no accountability world, he may just figure it's the
mayors' problem.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Icebound]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>
> Merriam-Webster: "refugee: one that flees; especially: a person who flees
> to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution". What's
> being objected to is the connotation of having fled from a foreign
> country; obviously, that connotation is not objectionable in situations
> where people really do flee internationally.

World Book: A person who flees for refuge or safety in time of war,
persecution, or disaster.

(no mention of country)

>
> I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
> anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.
>

....which makes it all the more peculiar that the President and the Black
leaders would obsess so... and they are *extremely* adamant about it, too.
:-? This is but one of hundreds of articles about the issue:
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000056047

Anyway, I just didn't want Jay to get in trouble with the language police,
so, having completed the mission: <end of refugee-semantics sub-thread>
hopefully :-)

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't sound so
> good to them:
>
A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.

[Bob Gardner]

Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.

Bob Gardner

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't sound
>> so good to them:
>>
> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.

[Peter R.]

Bob Gardner > wrote:

> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.

Would you want to be floating on water after doing so for the previous ten
days?

--
Peter
























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[Icebound]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>

Having been on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship quite recently, were *I* a
refugee and had a choice, *I* would not want to live on a cruise ship for an
extended time....especially not with kids. The exception would be if that
was the only air-conditioned place available :-)

Not that I would mind the food or even the entertainment, but it is still a
very claustrophobic environment. Better use of donated cruise ships might
be as temporary extra hospital space, housing for out-of-state volunteers,
and that sort of thing.

Cruise ships accommodation is fine for people who have something to do,
somewhere to go. It would probably be a terrible place to sit and wait.

[sfb]

The DOD is saying essentially the same things about their ships. Once
the emergency is past, the Navy ships will be used for rescue workers.
Same thing happened in New York after 9/11.

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>>
>
> Having been on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship quite recently, were *I*
> a refugee and had a choice, *I* would not want to live on a cruise
> ship for an extended time....especially not with kids. The exception
> would be if that was the only air-conditioned place available :-)
>
> Not that I would mind the food or even the entertainment, but it is
> still a very claustrophobic environment. Better use of donated cruise
> ships might be as temporary extra hospital space, housing for
> out-of-state volunteers, and that sort of thing.
>
> Cruise ships accommodation is fine for people who have something to
> do, somewhere to go. It would probably be a terrible place to sit and
> wait.
>
>
>

[Ross Richardson]

Wait for the first winter!!

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


Jay Honeck wrote:
> We booked our first refugees at the Inn yesterday -- an older couple who had
> stayed with us on vacation in the past, and who lost everything in Katrina.
>
> They are living day-to-day, not sure when -- or if -- they'll be able to
> return home. When I asked them why they came so far North to stay, they
> just shrugged their shoulders and said "Because we like it here..."
>
> So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice... (They
> like old prop-driven airliners...)
>
> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't sound so
> good to them:
>
> http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS08/509070365/1001&lead=1
>
>
> Here's the story, in case the link expires:
> **********************************************
> Iowa is ready, evacuees are not
>
> Des Moines Register
>
> September 7, 2005
> Iowa is ready to welcome thousands of Hurricane Katrina evacuees - but it
> was unclear Tuesday whether any of the people fleeing the Gulf Coast want to
> come.
>
> Iowans raced to be ready for hundreds of homeless people who had been
> expected to arrive as soon as Tuesday afternoon.
>
> The Iowa National Guard and American Red Cross prepared the Iowa State
> Fairgrounds for up to 1,000 people who were expected to come from evacuation
> points in Houston. The state has offered to assist up to 5,000 evacuees.
>
> But they didn't come.
>
> Late Tuesday afternoon, Iowa officials spoke with Federal Emergency
> Management Agency officials who said they were having a hard time getting
> people to leave the evacuation zones in Houston.
>
> "People don't necessarily want to move," Gov. Tom Vilsack told reporters
> Tuesday evening. "They are tired. They are frustrated. They want to stay
> where they are. So, we're going to give them a breather, and we are going to
> see where we are (today)."
>
> Vilsack said evacuees still may come. He and other governors will
> participate in a conference call with U.S. Homeland Security Secretary
> Michael Chertoff and learn more about the evacuation plans.
>
> "We stand ready and prepared if the call should come," Vilsack said.
>
> It's not just Iowa. Evacuees have rejected accommodations on cruise ships,
> for example.
>
> "The folks in Texas are having some difficulty encouraging folks to get on
> airplanes and travel to other locations. It's understandable. These people
> have been through a lot," Vilsack said. "This is a day-by-day, hour-by-hour
> situation."
>
> State officials waited by the phone all day. They had expected a call from
> the federal government that evacuees were on their way early Tuesday, state
> officials said. It never came.
>
> Nevertheless, Iowa stands ready. The Varied Industries Building at the
> fairgrounds has been turned into the main hub for evacuees, who would then
> be moved into hotels and homes around the community.
> **********************************************

[Steve Foley]

The state of Massachusetts scurried to open an unused national guard base to
house 2500 'guests', free of charge until March.

So far, they have had no takers.

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> >> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't
sound
> >> so good to them:
> >>
> > A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> > Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't
>> sound so good to them:
>>
> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.

DC I understand, but I wonder what the beef is with Iowa ... unless
they've been reading Jay's recent posts ... :-)

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
> anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.

Sometimes it seems like we couldn't make this kind of stuff up if we tried!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>
> Would you want to be floating on water after doing so for the previous ten
> days?

In the Queen Elizabeth II? Hell, yes!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
>> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.
>
> DC I understand, but I wonder what the beef is with Iowa ... unless
> they've been reading Jay's recent posts ... :-)

Well, given the number of states that have offered space -- and been ignored
or turned down -- perhaps the crisis is past?

Dunno, but doesn't it seem odd that folks are choosing to live in a flooded
cesspool rather than accepting free housing all over the country?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:PdKTe.332747$xm3.274353@attbi_s21...
> Dunno, but doesn't it seem odd that folks are choosing to live in a
> flooded cesspool rather than accepting free housing all over the country?

A number of elderly residents, in particular, have been reluctant to venture
to a new location:

***********
``I haven't left my house in my life. I don't want to leave,'' said a
frail-looking 86-year-old Anthony Charbonnet, shaking his head as he locked
his front door and walked slowly backwards down the steps of the house where
he had lived since 1955.
Charbonnet left only after a neighbor assured him: "Things will be OK. It'll
be like a vacation.'' Still protesting, Charbonnet stepped into the
ambulance in which soldiers from the Army's 82nd Airborne Division would
take him to a helicopter.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5262051,00.html
************

[Rich Lemert]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
>>>Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.
>>
>>DC I understand, but I wonder what the beef is with Iowa ... unless
>>they've been reading Jay's recent posts ... :-)
>
>
> Well, given the number of states that have offered space -- and been ignored
> or turned down -- perhaps the crisis is past?
>
> Dunno, but doesn't it seem odd that folks are choosing to live in a flooded
> cesspool rather than accepting free housing all over the country?

No, it doesn't. Accepting free housing all over the country means
leaving home and accepting change. These people are already going to
have to deal with more "change" than they ever wanted - they don't
want to add any more if they can help it.

These are people who cannot conceive of moving even to someplace like
Monroe, LA, because it would be so far from home and family, and it's
not just the under-educated that think this way. (My wife worked with
an engineer who turned down a job offer that would have involved an
equivalent scale of relocation because his wife thought this way.) It's
also an attidude that is not limited to the deep south - I've seen it
expressed even more forcefully in Appalachia.

To you and me the decision would be a no-brainer. These people aren't
you and me.

[Jay Honeck]

> These are people who cannot conceive of moving even to someplace like
> Monroe, LA, because it would be so far from home and family, and it's
> not just the under-educated that think this way. (My wife worked with
> an engineer who turned down a job offer that would have involved an
> equivalent scale of relocation because his wife thought this way.) It's
> also an attidude that is not limited to the deep south - I've seen it
> expressed even more forcefully in Appalachia.
>
> To you and me the decision would be a no-brainer. These people aren't
> you and me.

It must be very limiting to be so tied to the land that you can't let go.

One of the greatest feelings of freedom I've experienced was when I realized
that "home" was a state of mind, and not a place.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

Talk of the Nation on NPR had a caller this afternoon who lost everthing
in a flood somewhere out west. He was so fed up with all the hoops he
had to jump through that he did some research.
He found a National Geographic article that said Michigan was one of the
states least affected by environmental factors, so that is where he
moved to.
The most affected were California, Texas and Florida.
I will try to find the article.

[john smith]

> The governor of Texas has got to be wondering, about now, just what the long
> term repercussions are going to be for Houston and other of his cities. Of
> course, in today's no accountability world, he may just figure it's the
> mayors' problem.

Congressional redistricting, more Congress critters for the State of
Texas, more political clout nationally, more federal tax dollars,....

[john smith]

> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.

Eight families were supposed to arrive in Columbus Ohio this afternoon
aboard an airliner. They decided not to come, said Columbus was too far
away.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
>>>Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.
>>
>>DC I understand, but I wonder what the beef is with Iowa ... unless
>>they've been reading Jay's recent posts ... :-)
>
>
> Well, given the number of states that have offered space -- and been ignored
> or turned down -- perhaps the crisis is past?
>
> Dunno, but doesn't it seem odd that folks are choosing to live in a flooded
> cesspool rather than accepting free housing all over the country?

I don't know. I'd stay at my house in pretty dire circumstances. I'm
amazed that they are now throwing people out of their homes who wish to
stay. That just seems un-American to me.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>> These are people who cannot conceive of moving even to someplace like
>>Monroe, LA, because it would be so far from home and family, and it's
>>not just the under-educated that think this way. (My wife worked with
>>an engineer who turned down a job offer that would have involved an
>>equivalent scale of relocation because his wife thought this way.) It's
>>also an attidude that is not limited to the deep south - I've seen it
>>expressed even more forcefully in Appalachia.
>>
>> To you and me the decision would be a no-brainer. These people aren't
>>you and me.
>
>
> It must be very limiting to be so tied to the land that you can't let go.
>
> One of the greatest feelings of freedom I've experienced was when I realized
> that "home" was a state of mind, and not a place.

Insanity is also a state of mind. :-)

Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't know. I'd stay at my house in pretty dire circumstances. I'm
> amazed that they are now throwing people out of their homes who wish to
> stay. That just seems un-American to me.

I agree. What seems truly horrible is that -- apparently in the interest of
"fairness"? -- they are now evicting people from their homes in areas of
N.O. that are NOT flooded.

That's just seems stupid, but I suppose it is the inevitable and ultimate
extension of not wanting to appear elitist or racist.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

I think the politically correct turn is "survivor"
stay tuned for "Survivor New Orleans" instead of Guatemala
BT

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:U0DTe.315756$_o.224968@attbi_s71...
>> We booked our first refugees at the Inn yesterday --
>
> Ya gotta watch more CNN, Jay.
>
> The African-American leaders and the US government are very adamant about
> NOT calling the displaced persons as "refugees", but insist on "evacuee",
> or some such word.
>
> They seem to feel that "refugee" somehow diminishes the status of these
> people.
>
> I am wondering, however, that if that is so, then why is it okay to call
> the Sri Lankan, Thai (and other displacements of natural and man-made
> disasters) as "refugees"?
>
> Does that not diminish *their* status?
>
>
>
>
>
>

[sfb]

"As many as five people have died from bacterial infections caused by
the dirty water that Hurricane Katrina drove ashore last week, the U.S.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Wednesday."

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/07/MTFH64451_2005-09-07_18-34-52_YUE762791.html

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message news:eOLTe.283
>
> I don't know. I'd stay at my house in pretty dire circumstances. I'm
> amazed that they are now throwing people out of their homes who wish
> to stay. That just seems un-American to me.
>
> Matt

[Dave]

Whoa!

The cruise ships I have been on, (mostly Carnival) were FAR
from claustrophobic.....

And I paid for the trip (s)... :)

And to get out of a sewer?

1 st in line.....

Dave


On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:19:17 -0400, "Icebound"
> wrote:

>
>
>
>"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
>> Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>>
>
>Having been on a Royal Caribbean cruise ship quite recently, were *I* a
>refugee and had a choice, *I* would not want to live on a cruise ship for an
>extended time....especially not with kids. The exception would be if that
>was the only air-conditioned place available :-)
>
>Not that I would mind the food or even the entertainment, but it is still a
>very claustrophobic environment. Better use of donated cruise ships might
>be as temporary extra hospital space, housing for out-of-state volunteers,
>and that sort of thing.
>
>Cruise ships accommodation is fine for people who have something to do,
>somewhere to go. It would probably be a terrible place to sit and wait.
>
>

[john smith]

> I think the politically correct turn is "survivor"
> stay tuned for "Survivor New Orleans" instead of Guatemala

This one I might watch!

[Bob Noel]

In article <v6MTe.315272$x96.238309@attbi_s72>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> I agree. What seems truly horrible is that -- apparently in the interest of
> "fairness"? -- they are now evicting people from their homes in areas of
> N.O. that are NOT flooded.
>
> That's just seems stupid, but I suppose it is the inevitable and ultimate
> extension of not wanting to appear elitist or racist.

Unlikely. More likely is that there isn't power, water, sewer, emergency
services etc etc available for the areas not flooded.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Margy]

Peter R. wrote:
> Bob Gardner > wrote:
>
>
>>Heck, they won't even go aboard cruise ships that are right there.
>
>
> Would you want to be floating on water after doing so for the previous ten
> days?
>
I heard rumor today that a Dr. treating children of NO took about 20
patients before he figured out why they wouldn't drink. Apparently,
they wanted NOTHING to do with water.

[Montblack]

("Ron Natalie" wrote)
> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.


Camp Ripley (approx 100 miles 'NORTH' of St Paul - Minneapolis) is expecting
3,000 people up from New Orleans. They will be housed in army style cinder
block dorms for now ....if they show up.

Nobody has told them that the "Woolly [Bear] Caterpillars" around here are
looking extra woolly this fall. <brrrrr>

http://www.coldspringschool.org/Mill/wooly.html
"Some people believe that the Woolly Bear caterpillar can tell if the winter
is going to be mild or rough. If the stripe on the woolly bear is narrow, it
means the winter is going to be mild. If the stripe on the caterpillar is
wide, it means the winter is going to be easy."

(Necessary aviation content: Woolly Caterpillars turn into ...Tiger Moths)


http://www.startribune.com/stories/468/5597834.html
Camp Ripley prepares for up to 3,000 Katrina refugees

By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer
September 5, 2005

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - The state prepared for up to 3,000 Hurricane Katrina
refugees on Monday without knowing when they might arrive, or how.

They'll be housed at Camp Ripley, a National Guard post near Brainerd.
Department of Public Safety spokesman Kevin Smith said the state could take
more refugees if the Federal Emergency Management Agency asks.

Once they arrive, refugees will get medical and mental health services along
with food and shelter. They'll be housed in 20 dormitories that have 184
beds each.

"We're building a mini-city in a week,'' he said.

"The goal of Camp Ripley is basically temporary housing,'' he said. "We
would like to move people into their own places or other places as quickly
as possible.''

Smith said they were expected to arrive by air, but he didn't know if they
would be coming through airports in the Twin Cities, Brainerd, or landing at
Camp Ripley's airstrip. It's also possible some will arrive by road.

The influx comes as Minnesota is absorbing a wave of Hmong refugees from
Laos that could number around 5,000, according to State Department
estimates. The state got a $23 million federal grant to help pay for
additional social services, but it wasn't clear whether such help would be
available for the Katrina refugees.


Montblack

[john smith]

Well, there goes the BRAC decisions!
Any facility destined to be closed will now become an evacuee
resettlement facility.

[Morgans]

"Dan Luke" > wrote

> The governor of Texas has got to be wondering, about now, just what the
long
> term repercussions are going to be for Houston and other of his cities.
Of
> course, in today's no accountability world, he may just figure it's the
> mayors' problem.

YOU are the first to voice what I have been wondering, since the evacuations
started. If I were living in Houston, I would think about loading up a
moving truck, and leaving there, now. Me thinks the problems will be huge,
and soon.

The people need a place to go, but I have to wonder how many of these
citizens are going to be a huge crime problem. It will only take a few
percent. They have nothing to lose.

I hope I am totally wrong.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Well, given the number of states that have offered space -- and been
ignored
> or turned down -- perhaps the crisis is past?
>
> Dunno, but doesn't it seem odd that folks are choosing to live in a
flooded
> cesspool rather than accepting free housing all over the country?

MY guess is that they think when the water is gone, they can go back in, get
their place fixed up for free, and life goes back to the status quo. They
have no idea how bad it really is.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:v6MTe.315272

> I agree. What seems truly horrible is that -- apparently in the interest
of
> "fairness"? -- they are now evicting people from their homes in areas of
> N.O. that are NOT flooded.
>
> That's just seems stupid, but I suppose it is the inevitable and ultimate
> extension of not wanting to appear elitist or racist.
>
No, I think it is in anticipation of the massive health problem that is
about to take place. There are going to be outbreaks of NASTY things, in
concentrations we have never seen before, if we don't get everyone out, and
now.

If not, the outbreaks start, then people flee, taking epidemics with them,
all over the US, and world. This could get really bad, folks. Really,
really bad. The worst may be yet to come, I fear.
--
Jim in NC

[Darrel Toepfer]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> Merriam-Webster: "refugee: one that flees; especially: a person who flees to
> a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution". What's being
> objected to is the connotation of having fled from a foreign country;
> obviously, that connotation is not objectionable in situations where people
> really do flee internationally.
>
> I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
> anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.

You gotta remember, alot went to Texas as the article mentioned,
"Texas, its like a whole other country." The fact that they distributed
$2k debit cards to those in the Astrodome, I'm sure kinda made them want
to stay put...

[Darrel Toepfer]

Dan Luke wrote:

> The governor of Texas has got to be wondering, about now, just what the long
> term repercussions are going to be for Houston and other of his cities. Of
> course, in today's no accountability world, he may just figure it's the
> mayors' problem.

I was told by a Houstonite, that if just one opens a cajun restaurant,
it'd be worth it...

I didn't have the heart to tell him that New Orleans isn't really cajun
country...

[Newps]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't
>> sound so good to them:
>>
> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as well.
> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate to.

Here in Montana we have offered to take in several thousand and put them
up at the long defunct Glasgow Air Force Base. You wanna talk about
culture shock, wait until about January 15 and it's -50.

[Darrel Toepfer]

Rich Lemert wrote:

> These are people who cannot conceive of moving even to someplace like
> Monroe, LA, because it would be so far from home and family, and it's
> not just the under-educated that think this way. (My wife worked with
> an engineer who turned down a job offer that would have involved an
> equivalent scale of relocation because his wife thought this way.) It's
> also an attidude that is not limited to the deep south - I've seen it
> expressed even more forcefully in Appalachia.
>
> To you and me the decision would be a no-brainer. These people aren't
> you and me.

Monroe? Far to far north... brrrr

[Dave Stadt]

"Icebound" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Merriam-Webster: "refugee: one that flees; especially: a person who
flees
> > to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution". What's
> > being objected to is the connotation of having fled from a foreign
> > country; obviously, that connotation is not objectionable in situations
> > where people really do flee internationally.
>
> World Book: A person who flees for refuge or safety in time of war,
> persecution, or disaster.
>
> (no mention of country)
>
> >
> > I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
> > anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.
> >
>
> ...which makes it all the more peculiar that the President and the Black
> leaders would obsess so... and they are *extremely* adamant about it, too.
> :-? This is but one of hundreds of articles about the issue:
> http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7000056047
>
> Anyway, I just didn't want Jay to get in trouble with the language police,
> so, having completed the mission: <end of refugee-semantics sub-thread>
> hopefully :-)

With the "leaders" sitting around deciding what words to use it is not
surprising nothing got done for days after the hurricane hit.

[George Patterson]

Morgans wrote:
>
> There are going to be outbreaks of NASTY things, in
> concentrations we have never seen before, if we don't get everyone out, and
> now.

In the real sense of "we", that is, you and I, yes, we've never seen these
before. In the historical sense, the U.S. has seen massive epidemics in the
past. Cholera is a near-certainty. Typhoid will be right behind it (or maybe
ahead, who knows).

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

john smith wrote:
> Well, there goes the BRAC decisions!
> Any facility destined to be closed will now become an evacuee
> resettlement facility.

Not so. The closings are scheduled to take place over a 5 year period, so none
of the facilities are actually available yet. Take a look at the ones closed
during Clinton's administration. Those may be available.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Ross Richardson wrote:
> Wait for the first winter!!

You don't have to wait that long. When it starts getting chilly about a month
before they're used to it, they'll be hankering for warmer climes.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Morgans]

"Montblack" > wrote

> "Some people believe that the Woolly Bear caterpillar can tell if the
winter
> is going to be mild or rough. If the stripe on the woolly bear is narrow,
it
> means the winter is going to be mild. If the stripe on the caterpillar is
> wide, it means the winter is going to be easy."

That makes no sense. Wide or narrow, and neither tells if it will be a hard
winter.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Burns]

I think it's an attempt to move people to a safer environment and to limit
the number of emergency cases that the workers will have to return to if the
people stay. Imagine the diseases and illness that can be prevented by
getting the remaining people out of that infectious area. Every person that
insists on staying and then later requires emergency assistance stresses the
relief and emergency response efforts even further.

The whole shock and awe that is now starting in the media about the e.coli
in the water amazes me. (they're starting to talk about mosquitos also) I
guess I'll never get used to just how stupid the media or the politicians
they huddle up with are. Just WHERE do they think all the sewage went??
They've got dead bodies, corpses from graveyards, dead animals, and rotting
food all floating in that water and when they discover e.coli they are
surprised??? and now the Governor says that instead of continuing to
evacuate N.O. as it's mayor desires, she thinks they should study how
infected the water is??? I'll buy her a brand new set of chest high waders
and all the test tubes she wants, but I think we all know what she'll find.

Jim

[Montblack]

("Morgans" wrote)
> That makes no sense. Wide or narrow, and neither tells if it will be a
> hard
> winter.


Good catch :-)

http://www.coldspringschool.org/Mill/wooly.html
Ana, Riane, Leah M, Marina, and Rachel from Cold Springs (Elementary?)
School get a B.

They had the best pictures on their site which is why I chose the link.
Details got past me.

Here:
http://www.almanac.com//preview2000/woollybears.html
"According to legend, the wider that middle brown section is (i.e., the more
brown segments there are), the milder the coming winter will be. Conversely,
a narrow brown band is said to predict a harsh winter."


Montblack ...and much brown this winter?

[gregg]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>> I don't think the terminology is worth obsessing over. But still less is
>> anyone's obsession over it worth obsessing over.
>
> Sometimes it seems like we couldn't make this kind of stuff up if we
> tried!
>
> ;-)


I paraphrase (heavily) from a patrick O'Brian Book:

They have a suffused constant indignance which, if there was nothing to
warrant it at present, they were sure something would come along.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cOKTe.91515$084.4965@attbi_s22...

> It must be very limiting to be so tied to the land that you can't let go.
>
> One of the greatest feelings of freedom I've experienced was when I
realized
> that "home" was a state of mind, and not a place.

I see what you're saying, but a lot of these folks don't have much. They
don't have much in the way of resources, so they hold on dearly to what they
do have, even if it's just memories or a "feeling" of home. I believe one of
the biggest failures of the emergency response to this catastrophy is
governments (local and federal) not understanding the issues of evacuating
people of little means.

Also, about home not being a place, I don't believe kids think like that.
Moving anywhere is downright traumatic to all but the youngest of them.
We've got refugees, excuse me, evacuees, here in NC and several are kids of
elementary school age. It's got to be really scary for them to lose all that
they have known, living in a shelter and to have no friends. Kids need
security and as hard as it is for adults to go through this, it is 10 times
harder for the kids.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Jay Honeck]

> Also, about home not being a place, I don't believe kids think like that.
> Moving anywhere is downright traumatic to all but the youngest of them.
> We've got refugees, excuse me, evacuees, here in NC and several are kids
> of
> elementary school age. It's got to be really scary for them to lose all
> that
> they have known, living in a shelter and to have no friends. Kids need
> security and as hard as it is for adults to go through this, it is 10
> times
> harder for the kids.

Oh, absolutely. As a kid, "home" was my house, my friends, and my toys. To
have that wrenched from me (as it was when, as an 9 year old, we moved to a
big, new city) was traumatic. I didn't come to my "home-is-a-state-of-mind
epiphany" until I was in my late 30s.

What N.O. kids are going through right now has to be combination of the
world's greatest adventure, and the world's greatest trauma... Luckily,
kids are incredibly resilient.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

I was taken from Laos, dropped off in Thailand at the age of three. At
the eight of nine, I was brought to Elheart, KS. Six months later I
was brought to Herndon, VA. I went to Herndon Elementary, Herndon
Intermediate, Herdon High. All in Herdon , VA. I went to Radford
Univ. also in VA. I now live in Sterling, VA not far from my dad who
lives in sterling bordering Herndon. I have been in VA since that move
from Kansas (Christmas '76). I'm reluctant to move far away because I
see Herndon/Sterling, VA as "home". My wife too! We had a chance to
live overseas, on the taxpayer's dime, for a few years, but passed it
up. We have our routine down pat as far as living here.

[Flyingmonk]

that should have been "age of nine" not eight of nine.

Home is where one feels 'at home'.

[W P Dixon]

Imagine seeing someone on the newsgroup that went to Radford. Pretty area of
Virginia, just a few hours drive from my house ;) I tried like heck to find
a place around there and Roanoke to fly with no luck. Not much going on at
Virginia Highlands either.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I was taken from Laos, dropped off in Thailand at the age of three. At
> the eight of nine, I was brought to Elheart, KS. Six months later I
> was brought to Herndon, VA. I went to Herndon Elementary, Herndon
> Intermediate, Herdon High. All in Herdon , VA. I went to Radford
> Univ. also in VA. I now live in Sterling, VA not far from my dad who
> lives in sterling bordering Herndon. I have been in VA since that move
> from Kansas (Christmas '76). I'm reluctant to move far away because I
> see Herndon/Sterling, VA as "home". My wife too! We had a chance to
> live overseas, on the taxpayer's dime, for a few years, but passed it
> up. We have our routine down pat as far as living here.
>

[john smith]

> Also, about home not being a place, I don't believe kids think like that.
> Moving anywhere is downright traumatic to all but the youngest of them.
> We've got refugees, excuse me, evacuees, here in NC and several are kids of
> elementary school age. It's got to be really scary for them to lose all that
> they have known, living in a shelter and to have no friends. Kids need
> security and as hard as it is for adults to go through this, it is 10 times
> harder for the kids.

Wow! That's totally different from my experiences.
I find that kids adapt much more quickly than their parents.
Up until middle school (6 grade - 8 grade) when they start to form
social cliques (the kids, that is).

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Oh, absolutely. As a kid, "home" was my house, my friends, and my toys. To
> have that wrenched from me (as it was when, as an 9 year old, we moved to a
> big, new city) was traumatic. I didn't come to my "home-is-a-state-of-mind
> epiphany" until I was in my late 30s.

My family moved every two years (completely different school districts) of
my life until I entered high school.

I have vowed to remain in the same home for the sake of my young children.

--
Peter
























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[Blanche]

As early as this past weekend health officials were talking about
mold and spores that will run rampant as soon as the water level
recedes. (receeds?) Even if the sturcture is still viable, it will
probably be torn down to avoid the mold contamination.

I have this odd feeling that after the flood will come a man-made
fire to kill off the mold, spores, germs, etc. Not being involved
with any health organization (and flunking chemistry and barely
making it thru biology in high school) I don't know any other way
to uncontaminate the area.

[Icebound]

"Darrel Toepfer" > wrote in message
.. .

> You gotta remember, alot went to Texas as the article mentioned,
> "Texas, its like a whole other country." The fact that they distributed
> $2k debit cards to those in the Astrodome,

....were and/or are *planning* to distribute... *not* distributed

[Dave S]

They can be adamant all they want. Refugee is the terminology *I* am
using :) It's accurate.

Dave

[Dave S]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Many of those people had no respect for human
> lives and were just trying to take as much stuff as they could.

Such is the result of the disenfranchised being groomed to rely on
others for their well-being... not being raised with respect for
themselves or others, nor to be responsible for one's own actions.

Keep in mind I am referring soley to the troublemakers, regardless of
their race. Depravity is colorblind.

Dave

[Dave S]

Morgans wrote:


>
> The people need a place to go, but I have to wonder how many of these
> citizens are going to be a huge crime problem. It will only take a few
> percent. They have nothing to lose.
>
> I hope I am totally wrong.

Yea... they have plenty to lose. They will lose what freedom they have
left (individual criminals) and they also would be banished from the
dome. There have already been crackdowns on pot selling at the Dome
(apparently the Louisiana cops only cited you for smoking it, not having
it). There has been only one CONFIRMED sexual assault on premises per
the media, but the email and gossip rumors are abounding.

Slowly but surely the thugs will be weeded out, and removed. There is a
constant police presence not only at the dome, but at most of the
hospitals as well, and I am sure some of the local businesses are hiring
off duty cops in the interim as well. Not the place to act stupid, and
the stupid will quickly find this out the hard way. Unlike New Orleans,
our Jail is open for business.

One subway restaurant put up a sign that prohibited loitering,
essentially saying you need to buy something to hang out and sit in the
restaurant, otherwise the Police would be called to escort you out.

On the flip side, there are opportunities abound for those who WANT to
help themselves: there are already job fairs, resume building sessions,
nationwide companies are finding local work for displaced citizens.

The shelters in other Texas cities have already emptied considerably
(into private establishments and housing), but the Dome is gonna be
ground central for the disenfranchised for quite a while, I believe.

Dave

[Dave S]

john smith wrote:

>>I think the politically correct turn is "survivor"
>>stay tuned for "Survivor New Orleans" instead of Guatemala
>
>
> This one I might watch!

Wading through turd-infested waters to scroune a water bottle... then
hijack a generator, siphon the gas from a flooded car while being shot
at by a sniper..

the plot has potential.

[Flyingmonk]

It's a small world ain't it? Made smaller by the internet. VPI has a
strip if I remember correctly.

[Flyingmonk]

Oh yes, I forgot, that is some of the most BEAUTIFUL area I have ever
been in. I still take my wife and kids down there just to see where
daddy went to school and just to see the nice rural area and the
beautiful scenery.

I used to go splunking around that area and tubing in New River. BTW,
the Klan had their march in Radford while I was there.

[Flyingmonk]

Elkheart, KS not Elheart.

[W P Dixon]

Interesting ,
I have not seen any KKKnothead activity since I have been here. Back to
aviation, I do love flying around this area, it really is a beautiful part
of the country. And I sure do hope some sport planes become available here.
trying to move over closer to Bristol, that's where the wife works. If we do
I may end up flying out of Abingdon alot....when I get a plane in the air ;)
But I actually like Hawkins Co. TN airport better. Nice bunch of guys there,
most of which love to restore planes, or build them. One can learn alot from
such folks !!!!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Oh yes, I forgot, that is some of the most BEAUTIFUL area I have ever
> been in. I still take my wife and kids down there just to see where
> daddy went to school and just to see the nice rural area and the
> beautiful scenery.
>
> I used to go splunking around that area and tubing in New River. BTW,
> the Klan had their march in Radford while I was there.
>

[Flyingmonk]

Back to aviation? I thought we were talking 'bout Ketrina Refugees. ;
^)

[Trent Moorehead]

"john smith" > wrote in message
news:jsmith-C25913.11220508092005@news-rdr-

> Wow! That's totally different from my experiences.
> I find that kids adapt much more quickly than their parents.
> Up until middle school (6 grade - 8 grade) when they start to form
> social cliques (the kids, that is).

Was it your personal experience as a kid or as an adult with kids?

[Flyingmonk]

Montblack wrote:
>The influx comes as Minnesota is absorbing a wave of Hmong refugees from
>Laos that could number around 5,000, according to State Department
>estimates. The state got a $23 million federal grant to help pay for
>additional social services, but it wasn't clear whether such help would be
>available for the Katrina refugees.

Yes, help is there for the Katrina victims. I'm also from Laos, many
moons ago, but not of a Hmong decent. I like to add that, from the
very first week my family have not been a burden on the tax payers. We
have never collected unemployment. In fact all of our family members
have done pretty well and are big contributors to the IRS and local
taxes. I'm sure that the Lao Hmong refugees that are coming will
become an asset to this country just like most other legal immigrants
have been.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Montblack wrote:
>>The influx comes as Minnesota is absorbing a wave of Hmong refugees from
>>Laos that could number around 5,000, according to State Department
>>estimates. The state got a $23 million federal grant to help pay for
>>additional social services, but it wasn't clear whether such help would be
>>available for the Katrina refugees.
>
> Yes, help is there for the Katrina victims. I'm also from Laos, many
> moons ago, but not of a Hmong decent. I like to add that, from the
> very first week my family have not been a burden on the tax payers. We
> have never collected unemployment. In fact all of our family members
> have done pretty well and are big contributors to the IRS and local
> taxes. I'm sure that the Lao Hmong refugees that are coming will
> become an asset to this country just like most other legal immigrants
> have been.
>


Why Minnesota? It is cold there and they talk funny. I know because I listen
to PHC on NPR.

[Flyingmonk]

Aparently there's already an etablished Hmong community in that neck of
the woods. The Hmong are the Highlanders of Laos, they are from the
mountainous regions of Laos and were the CIA's secret soldiers against
VCs during the Vietnam Conflict. The mountainous areas of Laos are a
little colder than the rest of Laos, higher up and closer to China.
They get frosts on the leaves in the mornings, they are more
comfortable in the colder climates than most lower Lao people such as
myself. The Hmongs are fearless fighters and do not take criticism
well, such as Cha Vang ~ the Lao Hmong Hunter that killed all them good
white folks last hunting season. Be cautious when insulting a Lao
Hmong or any Lao for that matter.

I'm rambling...

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Jay Honeck]

> Aparently there's already an etablished Hmong community in that neck of
> the woods. The Hmong are the Highlanders of Laos, they are from the
> mountainous regions of Laos and were the CIA's secret soldiers against
> VCs during the Vietnam Conflict. The mountainous areas of Laos are a
> little colder than the rest of Laos, higher up and closer to China.
> They get frosts on the leaves in the mornings, they are more
> comfortable in the colder climates than most lower Lao people such as
> myself. The Hmongs are fearless fighters and do not take criticism
> well, such as Cha Vang ~ the Lao Hmong Hunter that killed all them good
> white folks last hunting season. Be cautious when insulting a Lao
> Hmong or any Lao for that matter.

Speaking of Hmong...

Last year there was a huge controversy in neighboring Wisconsin, when a
Hmong immigrant open fire and killed half a dozen or so deer hunters who he
felt were threatening him in some way. (I don't remember the details, but
it had something to do with him hunting on private property, and him
resenting being told to leave?)

I haven't followed the trial (I assume he'll be put away for life, as
Wisconsin has no death penalty), but last I heard the case has created
friction between the fairly large Hmong community and native Wisconsinites.
Apparently since coming over in the '70s and '80s, the Hmong have kept
largely to themselves, have not assimilated well into day-to-day American
life, and the locals (primarily in very rural Northern Wisconsin) have come
to resent them quite strongly.

These feelings were all pretty "behind-the-scenes" until the shootings,
apparently. I certainly never heard anything about the Hmong one way or the
other when I lived in Wisconsin.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

That's the guy I was talking about Jay, Cha Vang. BTW he was US
military trained a sharp shooter and vet of the first Gulf War. He got
to the US at the age of ten or eleven like myself. Grew up in US
school system like myself and signed up to go fight for his country,
the US.

His version ~ He was found in a tree stand by some of the deceased and
was told to "get off the f'in tree stand you dumb*ss Gouk, this is
private property". He got off the tree stand and said he thought he
was in public land, property in question is right next to public land.
Said they exchanged some words and he started to walk away when the one
of the men shouted some more profanities and shot in his general
direction. He then dove down, as trained and shot back killing I don't
remember how many.

The men called on their walkie talkie for help and a few at the hunting
camp responded on a fourwheeler and they were also shot, wounded and
killed I don't remember how many were woulded and I think the total
killed was eight. He left, threw the rest of his ammo in the swamp.
He was found asking for a ride, said he was lost. He was taken into
custody w/o any problem. The weapon that he used was a SKS, which is a
ten shot semiautomatic a precursor of the AK47, but not as 'assault
rifle' looking (ten shot non-detachable clip and no pistol grip sort of
like an M1 Garand).

I wasn't there so I don't know what happened, but I can't see him just
killing all those people for nothing. They must have either shot at
him like he said, he was fearing for his live or he just didn't what
they said to him. Maybe he's been harboring animousity against whites
from how he was treated during his life time and this incident set him
off. Who knows.

This is the reason why I warn people to be careful of who you insult.


As far as the Hmongs not assimilating, I have heard contrary. I have
gotten news when Lao or Lao Hmongs get accepted into Harvard, got an
MBA, got their doctorate, gets a promotion to management, opened their
dental clinic, insurance agencies, opened a supermarket, a restaurant,
a factory, a chicken farm...etc. One of the US Representative is a
Hmong.

After the Cha Vang incident there was a controversy over a bumper stick
that read "Save a Hunter, kill a Mong". This act was committed by a
man, one man. It was not committed by all the Hmongs. I don't condone
his actions. I haven't been following his trial, but I hope he gets a
fair trial by the Jury of his pears.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Flyingmonk]

I got the following in my email this morning:

Good luck Chai Soua Vang, you *******. You have abled and valiant legal
warriors battling on your behalf; otherwise, you have all but been
abandoned.

Your birth country is no longer. You are descended from a strong people
that have survived countless holocausts and exoduses from the fertile
plains of southern China to the southern plantations of America. And
the strength of your people has been the ties that bound differing
clans and traditions together. And a strength of your people has been
its unwavering practicality. And, characteristic of your people's
practicality, your own leaders have left you as a sacrifice at the
lynching tree in hopes that the rabid hounds of racism might let the
rest of us alone.

You adopted your new country, embracing whole heartedly in the American
dream. And, unquestioningly, you served her honorably and well
earning your status as an American veteran. You naively believed that
through your hard work, and based on your own merit, you would be
welcomed at the table as an American. But, last autumn it became
violently apparent that you never escaped your skin as a chink, a gook,
a nip, an immigrant. Not an American.

Today, in accordance with the supreme law of the Land, 12 people were
selected to determine your fate. The Law says that they are men and
women of your peers. But everyone knows better. From the audience
watching this story unravel on TV to the participants at the setting of
this play everyone but you realized the situational irony: you are not
an American.

So the Law says that the 12 who are to pass judgment upon you are your
peers. That they are unbiased. That they will hear your case. And
pass final judgment based on the merits of the evidence presented by
the legal warriors. And the Law says that you will get a fair shake.

But everyone knows better; from the audience unraveling the plot in the
papers to your darker skinned neighbors. Everyone realizes the
situational irony: you are to be a ritual sacrifice after whose
slaughter, the holy priests will hold up the Law of the Land, stained
with cronyism, sarcasm and hypocrisy and proclaim that the wise oracles

of 300 hundred years ago had indeed crafted a marvelous play.

So I say to you, "Good luck, Chai Soua Vang, you *******."
And I hope that Luck herself, also, has not abandoned you.

Frank Lis
09/08/2005

[john smith]

> > Wow! That's totally different from my experiences.
> > I find that kids adapt much more quickly than their parents.
> > Up until middle school (6 grade - 8 grade) when they start to form
> > social cliques (the kids, that is).

> Was it your personal experience as a kid or as an adult with kids?

As an adult who has two early teen agers and teaching and coaching 3-14
year olds for the last 10 years.
Girls have a harder time than boys.

[john smith]

In article <UI6Ue.318633$_o.199910@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Aparently there's already an etablished Hmong community in that neck of
> > the woods. The Hmong are the Highlanders of Laos, they are from the
> > mountainous regions of Laos and were the CIA's secret soldiers against
> > VCs during the Vietnam Conflict. The mountainous areas of Laos are a
> > little colder than the rest of Laos, higher up and closer to China.
> > They get frosts on the leaves in the mornings, they are more
> > comfortable in the colder climates than most lower Lao people such as
> > myself. The Hmongs are fearless fighters and do not take criticism
> > well, such as Cha Vang ~ the Lao Hmong Hunter that killed all them good
> > white folks last hunting season. Be cautious when insulting a Lao
> > Hmong or any Lao for that matter.
>
> Speaking of Hmong...
>
> Last year there was a huge controversy in neighboring Wisconsin, when a
> Hmong immigrant open fire and killed half a dozen or so deer hunters who he
> felt were threatening him in some way. (I don't remember the details, but
> it had something to do with him hunting on private property, and him
> resenting being told to leave?)

Jaaaayyyyy.... what do you think Bryan's post is about? :-))

[Dave Stadt]

If he is allowed in the general prison population he won't last a week. My
guess he will be isolated the rest of his life. The start of his trial is
imminent.

"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I got the following in my email this morning:
>
> Good luck Chai Soua Vang, you *******. You have abled and valiant legal
> warriors battling on your behalf; otherwise, you have all but been
> abandoned.
>
> Your birth country is no longer. You are descended from a strong people
> that have survived countless holocausts and exoduses from the fertile
> plains of southern China to the southern plantations of America. And
> the strength of your people has been the ties that bound differing
> clans and traditions together. And a strength of your people has been
> its unwavering practicality. And, characteristic of your people's
> practicality, your own leaders have left you as a sacrifice at the
> lynching tree in hopes that the rabid hounds of racism might let the
> rest of us alone.
>
> You adopted your new country, embracing whole heartedly in the American
> dream. And, unquestioningly, you served her honorably and well
> earning your status as an American veteran. You naively believed that
> through your hard work, and based on your own merit, you would be
> welcomed at the table as an American. But, last autumn it became
> violently apparent that you never escaped your skin as a chink, a gook,
> a nip, an immigrant. Not an American.
>
> Today, in accordance with the supreme law of the Land, 12 people were
> selected to determine your fate. The Law says that they are men and
> women of your peers. But everyone knows better. From the audience
> watching this story unravel on TV to the participants at the setting of
> this play everyone but you realized the situational irony: you are not
> an American.
>
> So the Law says that the 12 who are to pass judgment upon you are your
> peers. That they are unbiased. That they will hear your case. And
> pass final judgment based on the merits of the evidence presented by
> the legal warriors. And the Law says that you will get a fair shake.
>
> But everyone knows better; from the audience unraveling the plot in the
> papers to your darker skinned neighbors. Everyone realizes the
> situational irony: you are to be a ritual sacrifice after whose
> slaughter, the holy priests will hold up the Law of the Land, stained
> with cronyism, sarcasm and hypocrisy and proclaim that the wise oracles
>
> of 300 hundred years ago had indeed crafted a marvelous play.
>
> So I say to you, "Good luck, Chai Soua Vang, you *******."
> And I hope that Luck herself, also, has not abandoned you.
>
> Frank Lis
> 09/08/2005
>

[Jay Honeck]

>> Last year there was a huge controversy in neighboring Wisconsin, when a
>> Hmong immigrant open fire and killed half a dozen or so deer hunters who
>> he
>> felt were threatening him in some way. (I don't remember the details,
>> but
>> it had something to do with him hunting on private property, and him
>> resenting being told to leave?)
>
> Jaaaayyyyy.... what do you think Bryan's post is about? :-))

Guess I didn't read it all the way to the end, eh?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> But everyone knows better; from the audience unraveling the plot in the
> papers to your darker skinned neighbors. Everyone realizes the
> situational irony: you are to be a ritual sacrifice after whose
> slaughter, the holy priests will hold up the Law of the Land, stained
> with cronyism, sarcasm and hypocrisy and proclaim that the wise oracles
> of 300 hundred years ago had indeed crafted a marvelous play.
>
> So I say to you, "Good luck, Chai Soua Vang, you *******."
> And I hope that Luck herself, also, has not abandoned you.

Wow, now THAT is cynical.

I don't know what's worse -- assuming that the guy is somehow "innocent"
after admitting to killing 8 (?) guys, or assuming that a guy who killed 8
(?) people is somehow going to be ritually sacrificed by an unfair legal
system.

Unless he can prove self-defense -- which seems pretty unlikely, given the
circumstances -- I'd say he'll be going to the Big House for a long, long
time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Flyingmonk]

Jay wrote:
>Wow, now THAT is cynical.

It is I agree.

I think he has a week case too (self defense). I think he snapped,
might be a good case of temporary insanity. Wonder which strategy his
lawyers will use.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone.

[Flyingmonk]

I want to add that he's a father of six.

Tragic for all concerned; his kids, his wife, the deceased kids,
wives...the community.

How one action can have so many consequences.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Montblack]

("Flyingmonk" wrote)
> So I say to you, "Good luck, Chai Soua Vang, you *******."
> And I hope that Luck herself, also, has not abandoned you.
>
> Frank Lis
> 09/08/2005


Yeah, and OJ was simply getting in touch with his feelings when he
decapitated his ex-wife and her friend!!

Hmongs are the Gypsies of China. They were kicked out of China over 300
years ago. Then they were booted from the lowlands of Laos and surrounding
areas ...fleeing into the mountains for survival. They're like grizzly bears
and Mormons - living on the plains is preferred but the mountains are safer.

Since the late 70's St Paul welcomed many Hmong and Vietnamese
immigrants/refugees to this area. Locals warmed up to the Vietnamese, but
not so much to the Hmong. When this story broke I said to my gal, before any
info about the shooter had been released - "Hmong!"

Why?

Because they go into the woods, State Forests, private lands, State Parks,
Wildlife Management Areas, etc with guns and shoot anything that moves.
Fishing limits? Ha, not if you're Hmong - then you just ignore them. Talk to
any DNR agent "off the record" and they'll tell you they're surprised
something like this hasn't happened sooner. Hmong hunters are scary out in
the woods.

After this happened, many old reports of threats by Hmong hunters began to
surface. Reports in police files, DNR files, FBI files, County Sheriff
files, etc.

The Hmong hunters(?) have earned a reputation (over two decades) up here,
and it isn't a good one. (If you're in the media, then you're
institutionally blind to all of this)

BTW, he chased down and executed a number of his victims as they were
running away, or turning to flee - 4 of the 6 murdered were shot in the
back. The reason they all died that day in the woods is, IMHO - they could
not fathom ever shooting a fellow hunter. By the time they got their
thinking around to that reality, it was too late.

Also, I am so sick of race, race, race... HE KILLED 6 PEOPLE IN COLD BLOOD
PEOPLE!! Racial slurs my ass...end of story.


Montblack

[Dan Luke]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>> Interestingly, others in New Orleans have decided that Iowa doesn't
>>> sound so good to them:
>>>
>> A bunch of buses went down from DC and came back mostly empty as
>> well.
>> Washington and Iowa aren't on the top of people's list to relocate
>> to.
>
> Here in Montana we have offered to take in several thousand and put
> them up at the long defunct Glasgow Air Force Base. You wanna talk
> about culture shock, wait until about January 15 and it's -50.

That'll be a long wait, since the all time record for January is -30.

[Jay Honeck]

> Also, I am so sick of race, race, race... HE KILLED 6 PEOPLE IN COLD BLOOD
> PEOPLE!! Racial slurs my ass...end of story.

Well put. Criminal justice must be color blind, or we have made no
progress at all.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Here in Montana we have offered to take in several thousand and put them
>> up at the long defunct Glasgow Air Force Base. You wanna talk about
>> culture shock, wait until about January 15 and it's -50.
>
> That'll be a long wait, since the all time record for January is -30.

Think wind chill, man.

Brrrr.... It's hard to believe that winter is just a few months off, with
the temperature still pushing 90 around here.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

> >> So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice...

> > Your generosity in providing Katrina victims with a place to live
> > without cost is truly commendable.

> I seriously doubt that Honeck is doing this gratis. I'll bet he's
> getting paid by somebody.

Tommy Boy, you need to learn to separate business from personal.
Any business that gives away its services for any length of time will
not remain in business. That's Economics 101.
Jay hasn't survived this long in the guest services business by being
stupid.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:13:02 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>> >> So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice...
>
>> > Your generosity in providing Katrina victims with a place to live
>> > without cost is truly commendable.
>
>> I seriously doubt that Honeck is doing this gratis. I'll bet he's
>> getting paid by somebody.
>
>Tommy Boy, you need to learn to separate business from personal.
>Any business that gives away its services for any length of time will
>not remain in business. That's Economics 101.
>Jay hasn't survived this long in the guest services business by being
>stupid.

I'm glad we got that cleared up. For a minute there I thought Mr.
Honeck was displaying altruistic compassion for his fellow man. :-)

[John Theune]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:13:02 GMT, john smith > wrote in
> >::
>
>
>>>>>So, the Constellation Suite is their new home until further notice...
>>
>>>>Your generosity in providing Katrina victims with a place to live
>>>>without cost is truly commendable.
>>
>>>I seriously doubt that Honeck is doing this gratis. I'll bet he's
>>>getting paid by somebody.
>>
>>Tommy Boy, you need to learn to separate business from personal.
>>Any business that gives away its services for any length of time will
>>not remain in business. That's Economics 101.
>>Jay hasn't survived this long in the guest services business by being
>>stupid.
>
>
> I'm glad we got that cleared up. For a minute there I thought Mr.
> Honeck was displaying altruistic compassion for his fellow man. :-)
>
No where in any of Jay's postings did I see anything to indicate that
his guests were unable to pay for their rooms. Are you saying that
everybody who is in the business of selling a service should now give
them away to anyone who lived in the general area of the gulf coast? I
certainly see many people giving things to those who cannot pay but it's
rather silly to say that those who can afford to pay should not.

[Jay Honeck]

> No where in any of Jay's postings did I see anything to indicate that his
> guests were unable to pay for their rooms. Are you saying that everybody
> who is in the business of selling a service should now give them away to
> anyone who lived in the general area of the gulf coast? I certainly see
> many people giving things to those who cannot pay but it's rather silly to
> say that those who can afford to pay should not.

We gave our Katrina guests a very attractive (read: Cheap!) rate, which
their insurance company is more than happy to pay. It is for events like
this that people carry insurance, after all.

Their home is no longer flooded, but they still have no electricity, sewer,
phone, or cable service, so they're taking it "day by day" with us.
(Actually, they'll have to be out before Big Ten football starts, as there's
no room left at the inn on home game weekends...)

Because our suites have full kitchens (with full-sized appliances, etc.), we
do a small amount of business with "displaced people" whose insurance
companies pay their way while their homes are cleaned of smoke damage, etc.
(Check your policies to make sure you've got this kind of coverage, or
you'll be crashing at the in-laws for longer than you might wish in the
event of a fire, etc....)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[beavis]

This seems as appropriate as ever:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/nicklozon/retard.jpg


(sorry)

[W P Dixon]

That draws a PLONK! Somebody hang up the "No 10 year olds allowed" sign.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"beavis" > wrote in message
...
> This seems as appropriate as ever:
>
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/nicklozon/retard.jpg
>
>
> (sorry)

[Flyingmonk]

Well, update on this:

He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
eight women and four men.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=

No comment from me.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Jay Honeck]

> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
> eight women and four men.

Sounds like Vang's defense attorney, Steve Cohn, did a ****-poor job
during jury selection?

> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=
>
> No comment from me.

C'mon, man. The guy shot half those folks in the *back*! I'd say
something in him snapped, and he just went nuts.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[W P Dixon]

Yep when you shoot people in the back trying to get away from you, you
pretty much can rule out any self defense arguments. If 8 or 10 hunters were
trying to shoot this guy don't you think he would have been shot? Just from
what I read he went on a human hunting trip. He was either meaner than a
snake or just went nuts.

Patrick
studentSP
aircraft structural mech

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
>> eight women and four men.
>
> Sounds like Vang's defense attorney, Steve Cohn, did a ****-poor job
> during jury selection?
>
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=
>>
>> No comment from me.
>
> C'mon, man. The guy shot half those folks in the *back*! I'd say
> something in him snapped, and he just went nuts.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Newps]

Flyingmonk wrote:

> Well, update on this:
>
> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
> eight women and four men.

Hayward, Wisconsin is all white. Always has been. Even if it wasn't
are you saying that a white guy isn't a peer of a Hmong? How about a
black guy? Is that your America?

[Dave Stadt]

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message
...
> Yep when you shoot people in the back trying to get away from you, you
> pretty much can rule out any self defense arguments. If 8 or 10 hunters
were
> trying to shoot this guy don't you think he would have been shot? Just
from
> what I read he went on a human hunting trip. He was either meaner than a
> snake or just went nuts.

Some of those he killed did not have guns. That little fact kinda makes the
self-defense defense
argument tough for people to believe. It took the jury 3 hours to come to a
verdict.

> Patrick
> studentSP
> aircraft structural mech
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
> >> eight women and four men.
> >
> > Sounds like Vang's defense attorney, Steve Cohn, did a ****-poor job
> > during jury selection?
> >
> >>
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=
> >>
> >> No comment from me.
> >
> > C'mon, man. The guy shot half those folks in the *back*! I'd say
> > something in him snapped, and he just went nuts.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
>

[Montblack]

("Dave Stadt" wrote)
> Some of those he killed did not have guns. That little fact kinda makes
> the
> self-defense defense argument tough for people to believe. It took the
> jury 3 hours to come to a verdict.


I hope 2 hours of that was ordering the pizza, waiting for the pizza, and
eating the pizza!!


Montblack

[Montblack]

("Flyingmonk" wrote)
> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
> eight women and four men.
>
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=
>
> No comment from me.


And just how many Hmong were on the jury that sentenced those six hunters to
death?

He's a mass murderer - period!


Montblackandwhite

[Flyingmonk]

If anyone wants read further on how some Lao or how some Hmongs feel
about this whole situation, there are two forums in Google;

one is soc.culture.laos
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.laos?lnk=li

and one is soc.culture.hmong.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.hmong?lnk=lr

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Matt Barrow]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Flyingmonk" wrote)
>> He was found guilty by the jury of his peers, an all white jury of
>> eight women and four men.
>>
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-050916hunter,0,4256057.story?coll=
>>
>> No comment from me.
>
>
> And just how many Hmong were on the jury that sentenced those six hunters
> to death?

One. One Hmong judge, one Hmong jury, and one Hmong executioner.

>
> He's a mass murderer - period!

DUH!! :>)

[Flyingmonk]

I wrote earlier:
>After the Cha Vang incident there was a controversy over a bumper stick
>that read "Save a Hunter, kill a Mong". This act was committed by a
>man, one man. It was not committed by all the Hmongs. I don't condone
>his actions. I haven't been following his trial, but I hope he gets a
>fair trial by the Jury of his pears.

I think he I'd have to be there to know what happened. I wasn't there,
therefore I have no comments.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[RST Engineering]

Or a jury of his peaches or oranges.

Jim


"Flyingmonk" > wrote in message
ups.com...


I haven't been following his trial, but I hope he gets a
>>fair trial by the Jury of his pears.

[Flyingmonk]

Yeah I caught my typo too! : ^) "words are like bullets, once fired,
you cannot take it back."

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

[Flyingmonk]

I have heard somewhere that "Duh!" can be translated as "No ****
Sherlock!". Somehow I feel "Duh!" is less offensive. : ^)

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone