Re: Flying a Bonanza

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:41:41 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>I have a 64 S35, first year with the IO520 and the first year as a six
>seater so as a four seater you have a lot of cargo space. One of the
>first things you notice is these things are really put together.
>Cessnas and Pipers are flimsy beer cans compared to a Bonanza, of course
>thats also why the empty weight is 230 pounds more.

You probably haven't had your Bonanza long enough to answer this
question, but how do you find the cost of maintenance? I have heard
that Raytheon charges exorbitant prices for parts.

Back in the late 90s I made a short trip from John Wayne Airport to
Van Nuys to pick up a passenger. The owner of the FBO from whom I
rented the aircraft for the flight asked if I might pick up a set of
generator brushes for him. I intended to pick up my passenger at the
Raytheon ramp on KVNY, so I agreed to bring the parts back with me.
The cost for two generator brushes (for clarity, these are about the
size of a half stick of blackboard chalk and made of carbon). The
bill was about $200.00! I was shocked. When I worked at the
electrical wholesale house in the 70s, we sold similar brushes for
$0.50 each.

So what has been the experience of other Bonanza owners with regard to
maintenance costs?

[crossposted to rec.aviation.owning]

[[email protected]]

Alot of bonanza parts are expensive. However, accessory parts are what
the market offers since they aren't aircraft specific ie brushes.
Those don't need to be bought from Beechcraft.
If you buy them from Beech, they will be marked up 300%.

Most of the Beechcraft parts are very well built and don't need changing
very often.
Once the aircraft is up to snuff, the maintenance isn't much different
than other aircraft of the same type.

Nothing flys like a Bonanza!!!



Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:41:41 -0600, Newps > wrote
> in >::
>
>
>>I have a 64 S35, first year with the IO520 and the first year as a six
>>seater so as a four seater you have a lot of cargo space. One of the
>>first things you notice is these things are really put together.
>>Cessnas and Pipers are flimsy beer cans compared to a Bonanza, of course
>>thats also why the empty weight is 230 pounds more.
>
>
> You probably haven't had your Bonanza long enough to answer this
> question, but how do you find the cost of maintenance? I have heard
> that Raytheon charges exorbitant prices for parts.
>
> Back in the late 90s I made a short trip from John Wayne Airport to
> Van Nuys to pick up a passenger. The owner of the FBO from whom I
> rented the aircraft for the flight asked if I might pick up a set of
> generator brushes for him. I intended to pick up my passenger at the
> Raytheon ramp on KVNY, so I agreed to bring the parts back with me.
> The cost for two generator brushes (for clarity, these are about the
> size of a half stick of blackboard chalk and made of carbon). The
> bill was about $200.00! I was shocked. When I worked at the
> electrical wholesale house in the 70s, we sold similar brushes for
> $0.50 each.
>
> So what has been the experience of other Bonanza owners with regard to
> maintenance costs?
>
> [crossposted to rec.aviation.owning]

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:41:41 -0600, Newps > wrote
> in >::
>
>
>>I have a 64 S35, first year with the IO520 and the first year as a six
>>seater so as a four seater you have a lot of cargo space. One of the
>>first things you notice is these things are really put together.
>>Cessnas and Pipers are flimsy beer cans compared to a Bonanza, of course
>>thats also why the empty weight is 230 pounds more.
>
>
> You probably haven't had your Bonanza long enough to answer this
> question, but how do you find the cost of maintenance? I have heard
> that Raytheon charges exorbitant prices for parts.

I've heard that too, we'll see. My IA has the same model Bo I do so I
am lucky there. No paying for learning about Bonanza's.


>
> Back in the late 90s I made a short trip from John Wayne Airport to
> Van Nuys to pick up a passenger. The owner of the FBO from whom I
> rented the aircraft for the flight asked if I might pick up a set of
> generator brushes for him. I intended to pick up my passenger at the
> Raytheon ramp on KVNY, so I agreed to bring the parts back with me.
> The cost for two generator brushes (for clarity, these are about the
> size of a half stick of blackboard chalk and made of carbon). The
> bill was about $200.00! I was shocked. When I worked at the
> electrical wholesale house in the 70s, we sold similar brushes for
> $0.50 each.

My mechanic says I have an alternator that costs a lot to overhaul if
you do it the right(FAA) way. We will be taking it to the automotive
shop down the street when the time comes. Right now I have one dimmer
switch that is belly up. Mechanic says $350 from Beech but he will
check his other sources and get a cheaper one. Cessna was the same,
very expensive for a dimmer but we found a different source.

[Paul kgyy]

Beech isn't the only one that's exorbitant. I got a recent quote from
Piper for $200 each for a pair of gas caps for my Arrow.

I've always wanted a Bo but am getting concerned now about structural
issues - an AD for tail strengthening on older models, and more
recently an issue about cracks in the wing spar web.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 20:27:29 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>My mechanic says I have an alternator that costs a lot to overhaul if
>you do it the right(FAA) way. We will be taking it to the automotive
>shop down the street when the time comes.

Have you any idea with the differences in overhaul procedures are?

> Right now I have one dimmer switch that is belly up. Mechanic says
>$350 from Beech but he will check his other sources and get a cheaper
>one.

A dimmer is nothing more than a wire-wound rheostat right? If it
hasn't been charred beyond serviceability, and the fault is a result
of an open winding, it might be an easy matter to procure the proper
gage Nichrome wire, and rewind it. Materials: <$1.00

>Cessna was the same, very expensive for a dimmer but we found
>a different source.

Well, you can't blame the manufacturers for trying to make a profit,
but attempted price gouging because they officially have a monopoly on
an approved part that is comparable to those priced at 1/10th won't
endear them to their customers.

[Larry Dighera]

On 9 Sep 2005 06:13:28 -0700, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
in . com>::

>Beech isn't the only one that's exorbitant. I got a recent quote from
>Piper for $200 each for a pair of gas caps for my Arrow.

I would hope Cessna's charging 100 times the market rate for similar
items is a result of an attempt to included the cost of liability
exposure in the price, and not monopolistic profiteering.

>I've always wanted a Bo but am getting concerned now about structural
>issues

I too am considering a Bonanza. It's cost of operation per-seat-mile
seems superior to anything else in its class, but a 40-50 year old
aircraft does make one think about its structural integrity.

>- an AD for tail strengthening on older models,

That Airworthiness Directive was a result of a number of in-flight
failures attributed to flutter wasn't it? It was a necessary design
change to deal with an unanticipated problem inherent in the original
design, IIRC.

>and more recently an issue about cracks in the wing spar web.

That is probably the biggest concern, but there are methods of
detecting problems there aren't there? Isn't there a retrofit kit
available also?

[Robert M. Gary]

No different from Mooney or probably any other.

-Robert

[john smith]

> A dimmer is nothing more than a wire-wound rheostat right? If it
> hasn't been charred beyond serviceability, and the fault is a result
> of an open winding, it might be an easy matter to procure the proper
> gage Nichrome wire, and rewind it. Materials: <$1.00

Have you ever taken one apart and tried to rewind it?

[john smith]

> That Airworthiness Directive was a result of a number of in-flight
> failures attributed to flutter wasn't it? It was a necessary design
> change to deal with an unanticipated problem inherent in the original
> design, IIRC.

Not flutter, over stressed by exceeding design speeds.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:17:55 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>> A dimmer is nothing more than a wire-wound rheostat right? If it
>> hasn't been charred beyond serviceability, and the fault is a result
>> of an open winding, it might be an easy matter to procure the proper
>> gage Nichrome wire, and rewind it. Materials: <$1.00
>
>Have you ever taken one apart and tried to rewind it?

I have not taken a Cessna nor Bonanza dimmer apart, but I have rewound
rheostats and coils. But then I'm an IBEW trained, card-caryin'
Journeyman Wireman 'A', and electronics technician. Such a task may
not be for everyone, just as some find soldering difficult.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:19:07 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>> That Airworthiness Directive was a result of a number of in-flight
>> failures attributed to flutter wasn't it? It was a necessary design
>> change to deal with an unanticipated problem inherent in the original
>> design, IIRC.
>
>Not flutter, over stressed by exceeding design speeds.

Right. That makes sense.

[Roger]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:39:11 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 21:41:41 -0600, Newps > wrote
>in >::
>
>>I have a 64 S35, first year with the IO520 and the first year as a six
>>seater so as a four seater you have a lot of cargo space. One of the
>>first things you notice is these things are really put together.
>>Cessnas and Pipers are flimsy beer cans compared to a Bonanza, of course
>>thats also why the empty weight is 230 pounds more.
>
>You probably haven't had your Bonanza long enough to answer this
>question, but how do you find the cost of maintenance? I have heard
>that Raytheon charges exorbitant prices for parts.
>
>Back in the late 90s I made a short trip from John Wayne Airport to
>Van Nuys to pick up a passenger. The owner of the FBO from whom I
>rented the aircraft for the flight asked if I might pick up a set of
>generator brushes for him. I intended to pick up my passenger at the
>Raytheon ramp on KVNY, so I agreed to bring the parts back with me.
>The cost for two generator brushes (for clarity, these are about the
>size of a half stick of blackboard chalk and made of carbon). The
>bill was about $200.00! I was shocked. When I worked at the
>electrical wholesale house in the 70s, we sold similar brushes for
>$0.50 each.
>
>So what has been the experience of other Bonanza owners with regard to
>maintenance costs?

As of 5 years ago:
Sisors pin for nose gear: Was over $300 (It's 1/4 inch drill rod)
Shimp pack for nose gear: Varies, but bout $170 give or take.
Nose gear strut: $7000
Gear Door hinges: About $470 each and there are two per door.
Outer gear door: About $500

Throttle cable: A tad less than $300, but you'll probably have to
find a supplier for the older Bos as Ratheon doesn't carry them.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>[crossposted to rec.aviation.owning]

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:51:56 -0400, Roger
> wrote in
>::

>
>>So what has been the experience of other Bonanza owners with regard to
>>maintenance costs?
>
>As of 5 years ago:
>Sisors pin for nose gear: Was over $300 (It's 1/4 inch drill rod)
>Shimp pack for nose gear: Varies, but bout $170 give or take.
>Nose gear strut: $7000
>Gear Door hinges: About $470 each and there are two per door.
>Outer gear door: About $500
>
>Throttle cable: A tad less than $300, but you'll probably have to
>find a supplier for the older Bos as Ratheon doesn't carry them.

Those prices are similarly outrageous to the generator brushes I
mentioned. I presume they are retail prices. The brushes were
wholesale presumably, as I was picking them up for an A&P. Or does
Raytheon offer wholesale pricing at all?

Have you had any luck in mitigating parts costs by shopping at
Wentworth Aircraft, Inc: http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/home.htm

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> No different from Mooney or probably any other.
>
> -Robert

What?

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:


>
>>Right now I have one dimmer switch that is belly up. Mechanic says
>>$350 from Beech but he will check his other sources and get a cheaper
>>one.
>
>
> A dimmer is nothing more than a wire-wound rheostat right? If it
> hasn't been charred beyond serviceability, and the fault is a result
> of an open winding, it might be an easy matter to procure the proper
> gage Nichrome wire, and rewind it. Materials: <$1.00

I went flying today and saw that my mechanic had fixed the rheostat,
don't yet know what he did. I have Nulites and now the panel looks
really cool.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:10:12 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>
>I went flying today and saw that my mechanic had fixed the rheostat,
>don't yet know what he did. I have Nulites and now the panel looks
>really cool.

Great.

I'll bet it was an easy fix; it's a very simple system:
http://www.nulite.net/electrical.htm

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:06:20 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>
>
>Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> No different from Mooney or probably any other.
>>
>> -Robert
>
>What?

I think he was referring to the enormously inflated price of aircraft
parts.

[john smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:10:12 -0600, Newps > wrote
> in >::
>
> >
> >I went flying today and saw that my mechanic had fixed the rheostat,
> >don't yet know what he did. I have Nulites and now the panel looks
> >really cool.
>
> Great.
>
> I'll bet it was an easy fix; it's a very simple system:
> http://www.nulite.net/electrical.htm

Another high priced product.
Google "electroluminescent rope"

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:05:39 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>"electroluminescent rope"

Oh, you mean this stuff:
http://www.glowire.com/basic_glowire_information.htm
Cleaver.

Here
http://www.talkingelectronics.com/Projects/Electroluminescence/LitELine04.html
they say it operates at 120V 500Hz, there might be some interaction
with the ADF at that frequency and its harmonics. Or perhaps Nulites
chose another frequency for their inverter.

[Montblack]

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
>>> [Robert M. Gary wrote]
>>> No different from Mooney or probably any other.

>>What?

> I think he was referring to the enormously inflated price of aircraft
> parts.


You seldom know what R.M.G. is talking about because he "over-trims."


Montblack

[Michael]

> Alot of bonanza parts are expensive.

Aircraft parts in general are expensive; Beech parts are simply
outrageous.

My injected engines have one way valves that allow fuel to drain in
case it was overprimed. They are Piper parts, and are $50 each. They
are functionally equivalent to automotive valves that cost $10 each.
But that's nothing. My friend has a Baron, and his valves are $600
each. That's the Beech way.

Similar example - rod ends for trim tab actuators. Normally an AN
part, about $15. On the Baron, it's $120.

> Most of the Beechcraft parts are very well built and don't need changing
> very often.

Many of my friends own Bonanzas and Barons. I have not noticed them
replacing parts less often than I do on my Piper, same vintage. Beech
parts are no better (or worse) than any other aircraft parts. They are
more expensive.

> Once the aircraft is up to snuff, the maintenance isn't much different
> than other aircraft of the same type.

That's true. Mostly, the parts that wear out are engine, not airframe
parts. Fortunately, the engines are Continental - not Beech/Raytheon.
By the time you figure in all the other expenses - labor, engine parts,
fuel, insurance, hangar, engine overhaul - the high cost of Beech parts
isn't really a significant factor in owning a Beech. It's only when
you buy something that needs a lot of airframe work that the Beech
parts cost hits you hard. That's why you can get such a great deal on
an old Bonanza, Baron, or TravelAir.

> Nothing flys like a Bonanza!!!

Actually, lots of things fly like a Bonanza. It's an airplane.
Nothing special.

The real truth is, nothing lands like a Bonanza. Most airplanes in its
class require some skill to land. The Bonanza really doesn't. It's
easier to land than a C-172. It makes you look good. That's why so
many pilots love it.

Michael

[Jon Kraus]

I hope their parts prices are better than their websight. It is pretty
much worthless. I bookmarked it anyway, just in case :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 14:51:56 -0400, Roger
> > wrote in
> >::
>
>
>>>So what has been the experience of other Bonanza owners with regard to
>>>maintenance costs?
>>
>>As of 5 years ago:
>>Sisors pin for nose gear: Was over $300 (It's 1/4 inch drill rod)
>>Shimp pack for nose gear: Varies, but bout $170 give or take.
>>Nose gear strut: $7000
>>Gear Door hinges: About $470 each and there are two per door.
>>Outer gear door: About $500
>>
>>Throttle cable: A tad less than $300, but you'll probably have to
>>find a supplier for the older Bos as Ratheon doesn't carry them.
>
>
> Those prices are similarly outrageous to the generator brushes I
> mentioned. I presume they are retail prices. The brushes were
> wholesale presumably, as I was picking them up for an A&P. Or does
> Raytheon offer wholesale pricing at all?
>
> Have you had any luck in mitigating parts costs by shopping at
> Wentworth Aircraft, Inc: http://www.wentworthaircraft.com/home.htm

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:19:53 GMT, Jon Kraus > wrote
in >::

>I hope their parts prices are better than their websight.

Well, used aircraft parts are quite functional in some applications,
and given they are genuine, you shouldn't run afoul of the FAA as
might occur if automotive parts are substituted. I have found
Wentworth prices to be reasonable, about half of the cost of new.

[Robert M. Gary]

>You seldom know what R.M.G. is talking about because he "over-trims."

I have a newsreader that puts replys under the associated posts w/o
regard to time. If you're just reading news sorted by date, I can see
how you can be confused.

[Robert M. Gary]

> I think he was referring to the enormously inflated price of aircraft

BTW: A friend of mine just replaced the tire and wheel on his
Gulfstream. $40K!!

-Robert

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>You seldom know what R.M.G. is talking about because he "over-trims."
>
>
> I have a newsreader that puts replys under the associated posts w/o
> regard to time. If you're just reading news sorted by date, I can see
> how you can be confused.
>

I see only new posts, so if you just post a reply with no context then
it's just drivel.

[Roger]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:33:40 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On 9 Sep 2005 06:13:28 -0700, "Paul kgyy" > wrote
>in . com>::
>
>>Beech isn't the only one that's exorbitant. I got a recent quote from
>>Piper for $200 each for a pair of gas caps for my Arrow.
>
>I would hope Cessna's charging 100 times the market rate for similar
>items is a result of an attempt to included the cost of liability
>exposure in the price, and not monopolistic profiteering.
>
>>I've always wanted a Bo but am getting concerned now about structural
>>issues
>
>I too am considering a Bonanza. It's cost of operation per-seat-mile
>seems superior to anything else in its class, but a 40-50 year old
>aircraft does make one think about its structural integrity.
>
>>- an AD for tail strengthening on older models,
>
>That Airworthiness Directive was a result of a number of in-flight
>failures attributed to flutter wasn't it? It was a necessary design
>change to deal with an unanticipated problem inherent in the original
>design, IIRC.
>
>>and more recently an issue about cracks in the wing spar web.
>
>That is probably the biggest concern, but there are methods of
>detecting problems there aren't there? Isn't there a retrofit kit
>available also?

It's a visual inspection and can be fixed by stop drilling and
doublers. The current question is whether that is good enough or not.
It's thought the cracks come from taxiing on rough surfaces rather
than in flight, but who knows.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 9 Sep 2005 15:46:16 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>>You seldom know what R.M.G. is talking about because he "over-trims."
>
>I have a newsreader that puts replys under the associated posts w/o
>regard to time. If you're just reading news sorted by date, I can see
>how you can be confused.

Posts in order by date are in logical order only by chance by the time
they've gone through several servers.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[xyzzy]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>>You seldom know what R.M.G. is talking about because he "over-trims."
>
>
> I have a newsreader that puts replys under the associated posts w/o
> regard to time. If you're just reading news sorted by date, I can see
> how you can be confused.
>
Many newsreaders don't show already-read posts. Mine does but they are
marked as already read, so I don't look at them again. If the post you
replied is already read when I read yours, what you're replying to is
not fresh in my mind and I'm not about to go back and look at that just
so I can figure out wtf you are saying.

Leaving some context in is simple netiquitte.