Instrument Training at night? Good Idea or not?

[[email protected]]

I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

[Jimmy B.]

wrote:
> I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
> during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.
>
> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
> don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
> However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
> Instrument.
>
> I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
> PPSEL, but not while IFR.
>
> So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
> risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?
>


I did most of my IFR training at night. As long as the weather is clear
and you have a proficient instructor, the risk is small.

I love flying at night. In fact, night flying is why I got my IFR
ticket to begin with. It is a lot harder to spot clouds over rural
areas at night.

You may be laughing at my "proficient instructor" comment, but there are
a lot of instructors out there who are not proficient at real IFR
flying. Ask your potential instructor if he will do training in actual
IFR conditions. If he says no, then I wouldn't use him. I would
recommend getting some actual IMC during your training. There is a huge
difference between you wearing foggles and being in actual IMC.

[Kobra]

> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?

> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?

There is a small increased risk in any night flying. The main thing is an
engine failure and the inability to find a safe landing spot as easily as
during the day. IFR training in VFR conditions carries no additional risk
IMO other than the increased risk of any night flying.

If the area you fly in has a reasonable amount of ground light, night flying
is rewarding and pleasurable. The night landing robs you of a bit of depth
perception and you might have a few hard landings until you get the hang of
it.

If you are in mountainous or sloping terrain or in an area were there is
little ground light be aware of the usual optical illusions (black hole,
false horizon, spatial disorientation, etc). Personally, I don't like
landing at an unfamiliar airport at night unless there is glide slope
indication of some sort (ILS, VASI, PAPI).

Learn to fly at night and become proficient. Passengers love to fly with
you at night for the smooth air and great view. Once you're comfortable you
will fly much less during the day.

Kobra

[David Cartwright]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
> don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
> However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
> Instrument.
> So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
> risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

The main thing with flying at night in a single-engine aircraft is that life
is less encouraging when it comes to engine failures. This said, though, I
can't see that it's really more risky flying on a nice, clear night than,
say, flying single-engine in daytime IMC with a low cloud base.

The main thing to be sure of is that your instructor is experienced and
extremely competent with night flying. Again, no surprises here - if you're
doing an IMC course in real IMC you'd want your instructor to have loads of
experience. The trick is to be confident that (a) they're sharp enough to
stop you getting into trouble; and (b) if, by some misfortune, they were
looking at the map while you got yourself into an inverted, screaming
descent, they'll be able to get you out of it.

I was fortunate in that my IMC instructors were both several-thousand-hours
ex-commercial pilots who had thousands of hours of hands-on IMC between them
(i.e. none of this namby-pamby auto-land stuff for the ex- Hunter and Fokker
50 pilot, and lots of nice North Sea weather for the helicopter captain :-)
Sadly I can only fly at night with an instructor because the CAA thinks I'm
too colour-blind, but it's immense fun and the views are awesome.

D.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
: during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

: What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
: don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
: However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
: Instrument.

: I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
: PPSEL, but not while IFR.

: So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
: risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

I won't reiterate what others have said regarding night flying and instrument
instructor proficiency. When I got my rating, I was adament about getting some actual
IMC time. I waited for "good bad weather" to do my cross-country training flights
for my instrument training. Something like 800-1000' overcast, stable stratus, no
icing or CB's, and good vis below.

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Brad Zeigler]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
> during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.
>
> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
> don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
> However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
> Instrument.
>
> I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
> PPSEL, but not while IFR.
>
> So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
> risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

As an instrument instructor, I prefer teaching instruments at night. Here's
why:
1) It's more realistic to simulate instrument conditions in VMC at night.
2) Most airports seem to be less busy so busting into the pattern from a
practice approach is less problematic.
3) In my area, ATC tends to be less busy so controllers tend to be more
patient with my students
4) The air is smoother (although sometimes its *too* smooth)
5) the night environment forces good cockpit management habits. Fishing
around for a chart is harder at night when they all look alike in the dark.

There are challenges and risks though...
1) I tend not to do aggressive unusual attitudes or stalls at night. At
night a stall is an instrument manuever for both the student and the
instructor, especially on a dark night with no moon.
2) Some fields do not allow practice approachs later in the evening. My
local class C doesn't allow them after 10pm, presumably for noise abatement.
3) Airports services are less likely to be available...locked FBOs, no fuel
truck, empty vending machines, etc.
4) Greater potential for ground fog...must watch the temperature dewpoint
spread.
5) less options available for forced or precautionary landings. Highways and
parking lots become viable options.
6) night generally occurs at the end of the day, so stress and rest are
factors for both the student and the instructor. An IMSAFE audit is real
important.

I will fly in IMC at night in a single provided:
1) I am familiar with the aircraft. While engine failure can occur anytime
to any engine, the probability is much less on a well maintained aircraft.
2) We are over flat terrain. I will fly over mountains (east coast
mountains, that is) at night in VMC provided we have enough visibility,
altitude and options below us (i.e. valleys, highways, etc.)
3) We have a GPS with an independent electrical source. This is my rule for
day IMC as well.

[Gerald Sylvester]

Kobra wrote:
>>What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?
> There is a small increased risk in any night flying. The main thing is an
> engine failure and the inability to find a safe landing spot as easily as
> during the day. IFR training in VFR conditions carries no additional risk
> IMO other than the increased risk of any night flying.

Definitely correct on all accounts including the stuff I deleted.
I did much of my IFR training at night and about 25% of my
200 hours is at night. I am actually fairly comfortable at night
and almost wonder why people are so scared of it (noting the additional
risks listed above). With foggles, it is a
great substitute for IMC. It is also more challenging which
is good as you have the CFII to fall back on. Same thing for
getting night experience with the experience of the CFII on board.
I highly recommend it.

Gerald

[Mark T. Dame]

Jimmy B. wrote:
>
> I would
> recommend getting some actual IMC during your training. There is a huge
> difference between you wearing foggles and being in actual IMC.

I would have to concur *strongly*. You don't want your first experience
in actual to with your family in the plane.

In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual. I
learned very quickly to ignore it and trust my instruments.
Fortunately, my first experience in actual was while I was still
training. To make it extra special, it was at night and we departed
with ceilings about 700' AGL. We entered IMC in a climbing left turn
that quickly turned into a descending left turn. Had I not been with an
experienced instructor, I may not have been able to recover as I
wouldn't have realized the problem until I broke out again at 700' in a
1,000 - 1,500 fpm spiral dive. As it was, my instructor made a comment
like "are you going to correct that?" and immediately I realized the
situation and corrected it.

Which is the other thing. You need to have an instructor that is
confident enough and experienced enough to let you get into trouble and
let you get out of it again. If your instructor takes control every
time you get into trouble, you won't learn much. Recognizing that you
are in an unusual attitude and then recovering is, in my mind, the most
important skill in instrument flying. Being able to keep the needles
exactly centered or flying a perfectly wind corrected hold is nice for
showing off, but you have room for error in those operations. You don't
have to fly them with autopilot precision. On the other hand,
recognizing that you're entering a descending left turn instead of the
climbing right turn that you intended or that from straight and level
you have somehow managed to get into an increasingly steep climbing turn
is far more useful. You don't get to learn this properly under the
hood. It takes the real thing to truly learn it. If your instructor
won't do it or your instructor takes control too quickly, you are
missing out on training that could save your life one day.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer."
-- Star Trek: Dr. McCoy, "The Devil In The Dark"

[Michelle P]

I did half of my IFR training at night. If it is VFR go for it. I do not
recommend training in actual at night. Flying IMC at night is some of
the hardest flying you will do especially if there is turbulence.
Michelle

wrote:

>I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
>during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.
>
>What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
>don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
>However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
>Instrument.
>
>I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
>PPSEL, but not while IFR.
>
>So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
>risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?
>
>
>

[xyzzy]

wrote:
>
> As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
> The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
> and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
> reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
> overloaded head.

Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
use charts).

> On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
> foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
> the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
> at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
> references."

I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
afternoons.

[pgbnh]

Most definitely do some instrument training at night. As others have said,
you do not want your first encounter to be real IMC when it is real dark.

Having said that, I add the following:
Do some night IFR simulated in VMC with a competent instructor
Do some night IFR in ACTUAL IMC, but with good enough visibiity and high
enough ceilings to provide an 'out' if you need it (I would vote for a
4-5000 ceiling and 5-8 vis.). These are my personal minimums for night IFR.

I scared the crap out of myself with a night flight in actual, with family
aboard, and about 1000/3. Will not do it again.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
> during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.
>
> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
> don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
> However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
> Instrument.
>
> I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
> PPSEL, but not while IFR.
>
> So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
> risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/20/2005 12:45, xyzzy wrote:

> wrote:
>>
>> As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
>> The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
>> and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
>> reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
>> overloaded head.
>
> Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
> basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
> instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
> with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
> gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
> two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
> use charts).

I too saw this the first time I did a cross county IFR training flight
at night. I had to look at the chart and determine on which bearing
I was from various VORs along the route.

There is a larger work load when having to point a flashlight at the
chart, then at the panel to scan the instruments, then back to the
chart, etc.

It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).

>
>> On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
>> foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
>> the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
>> at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
>> references."
>
> I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
> over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
> your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
> actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
the planet to be sure.


>
> IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
> afternoons.
>

Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[[email protected]]

: It would have been easier if my light had been brighter, but there's
: a cost associated with that (in reduced night adaptation).

Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light for night
flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced the bulb with a
single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or something... don't remember the size
packages of LEDs offhand) is almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had
to rig in a resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

Anyway, bottom line is that it's just enough light to read the features of the
chart easily, but not too much to destroy your night vision. Useless as a regular
flashlight, but it's perfect for charts and it'll last almost forever on a single set
of batteries.

: I agree with this as well. While training, I used to try to ignore all
: the visual cues (and was able to get disoriented from time to time) -
: flying at night didn't make this any easier... but I was flying over
: the valley between Oakland and Sacramento - not the darkest part of
: the planet to be sure.

I'm a bit skewed. Here in the mountains southwest Virginia, there aren't all
that many lights. Certainly little "glow from below". You'd have to see the lights
out of your peripheral vision to get references from them. I found daylight shadows
moving (and my fixed-pitch prop loading/unloading the engine) the most irritating
"cheats" to simulated IMC.

: >
: > IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
: > afternoons.
: >

: Of course, as others have said - nothing beats actual IMC for giving
: you respect for IMC ;-) If any pilot (or prospective pilot) hasn't
: experienced it yet, they should grab an instructor and go do it; regardless
: of their Instrument Rating aspirations. It will really open your eyes -
: Especially if you think "How hard can it be?" ;-)

Absolutely agree. My instructor had me do actual for some of my instrument
work for my private. It was a nice, February high overcast chilly day... spent about
20 minutes 500' up in a solid overcast (but above MEA for the area). It felt like 20
hours and I never knew I could sweat so quickly. Here I am... probably about 30 hours
total, flying in solid soup using 98% of my brainpower to keep the shiny side up.
Instructor leans over and points at the windshield saying, "See that? That's airframe
ice."
Anyway... enough to instantly instill respect for IMC and icing. Good
experience to have under controlled circumstances so you don't blunder into it
yourself.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[A Lieberman]

On 19 Sep 2005 14:38:55 -0700, wrote:

> What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
> don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.

Having the fact that I own my plane, I would fly at night in a heart beat.

I had my engine overhauled shortly after I bought the plane, and I have
managed to nurse my plane to where every button, knob and lever works. It
took me 2 years to get to this point.

Having said this, my first night flight in IMC was not expected. I managed
to get 8.6 actual in the daylight (all training flights) before my first
night cross country flight in actual conditions.

My flight from Stuebenville Ohio to Madison MS, when I left, the forecast
was for severe clear on departure. I knew I would be flying 2 hours after
sunset.

I planned a fuel stop in Bowling Green KY. It was at that fuel stop where
I found out the cold front that was suppose to move south instead became
stationary and turned into a warm front. I had got a flight briefing the
night before, but didn't get one that morning, so I was surprised how
quickly things had changed.

It was severe clear on my first leg, and it was bumpier then I am used to
(should have been my first clue the weather pattern was changing).

Night IFR in the clouds, TO ME, was actually easier then severe clear. The
nav lights gave a very soft glow inside the clouds, making it a soft grey
rather then pitch black. So, while I had to continuously scan my
instruments, I found the nav lights a rather soothing feeling, that I
wasn't in a dark hole and to rest my eyes, I would look at each wing tip to
force myself not to focus on one instrument. I felt no different flying
night IFR then flying VFR as my instrument scan was the same.

I was in and out of rain showers at night, and the only way I knew this was
from hearing the rain beat on the windshield. It was bumpier then all get
out in the clouds, and ATC was more then accommodating when I ask for
altitude changes.

For this flight, I flew 2.5 in actual conditions at night which terminated
as an VOR Alpa approach where I broke out at 1400 feet at MBO.

There is a lot more work at night in cockpit management. You can't just
glance down and pick up a chart, you must be organized. If you have good
cockpit management at night, day IFR operations will be that much simpler.

Radio is much quieter at night! Almost too quiet! I would fly 10 minutes
without hearing a voice. While that is nice in some respect, it also makes
you paranoid, did I lose my radios.

The plane doesn't care if it's IMC or severe clear, day or night. As long
as you have a plane you can trust your life in the daytime, night time IFR
is no different in my opinion.

After all, when you are in the clag, you won't have too many landing
options to look for anyway especially if ceilings are only 1000 feet day or
night.

So, to answer your question, based on my experienced, a big yes, night IFR
training would be a good idea.

Allen

[Stan Gosnell]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in :

> In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
> the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.

My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and fly much worse.
Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

I do most of my flying at night, over water, and it's all instrument flying, whether there
are clouds or not. In general, the air is smoother at night, so you'll get much less
turbulence, and thus the aircraft is easier to control. I also find that an ILS approach to
minimums is easier in the dark, because the approach and runway lights are easier to make
out without sunlight scattering everything in the fog. If I have to fly an ILS with 100'
overcast and 1/4 mile vis, I want to do it when it's very dark. I've done it at night and
in the daylight, and I prefer the dark. It does take a different mindset to fly at night,
but that's mostly for takeoff and landing. The enroute flying is pretty much the same, and
I don't think the risk is that much higher at night, disregarding an engine failure. An
engine failure in a single-engine airplane at night is going to be dangerous, no matter
whether you're practicing instruments or just out for fun.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither
liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[Stan Gosnell]

wrote in
:

>
> Just for the record, I have made (IMO) the perfect chart light
> for night
> flying. I took a regular minimag flashlight (2-AA type) and replaced
> the bulb with a single green LED. The smaller one (3/4 T or
> something... don't remember the size packages of LEDs offhand) is
> almost the same size as the original light bulb. I had to rig in a
> resistor (47 Ohm IIRC) in between the two AA's to limit the current.

I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[David Cartwright]

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
>> In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
>> the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.
> My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and
> fly much worse.
> Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

Whether or not you experience negative feelings such as discomfort or
vertigo in artificial IMC, the fact we all seem to concur on is that there's
nothing quite like real IMC. I've used two types of foggles (both a pain in
the backside, particularly if you have to wear glasses to see correctly) and
I've flown an aircraft with custom-made screens that prevent the pilot (but
not the instructor) from seeing outside. Even with such screens, though, the
fact remains that because there are louvres cut so the instructor can keep a
lookout, if you have half-decent peripheral vision there's a good chance
you'll see a horizon there somewhere, out of the corner of your eye, thus
failing to simulate the whole spatial-disorientation thing you're trying to
achieve.

Don't get me wrong, it's handy to have artificial IMC available - not least
because Sod's law dictates that when you want to do an IMC lesson, there's
never a decent cloud around when you want one. But you absolutely must do
some real IMC, or you stand a good chance of being bitten the first time you
do it for real on your own.

The week before I was to do my IMC test, my instructor sent another student
and me with one of his colleagues (it's good to have a check-ride with
someone independent) to fly from my home airfield to another about 60 miles
away. I flew there and did an NDB approach, the other guy flew back and had
the luxury of an ILS. Cloudbase was 1,200 feet with the tops at about 3,500
feet; we departed, climbed through the cloud, flew on top following the
navaids (just us and something big and grey going into Mildenhall - such a
neat experience), then did the approach through cloud. Not only did it
convince the other instructor that I stood a chance of passing my test, but
more importantly it made me think: "Hey, this stuff really does work - if
you do it like it says on the plate, there's a runway at the end of it".

D.

[[email protected]]

Stan Gosnell > wrote:
: I have a minimag that uses AAA batteries, and put a green LED in it. The
: T3 is the right size. I got it from Mouser. I haven't seen the need for
: a resistor - it just plugs into the holes for the regular bulb. I wear
: it on a lanyard around my neck so I can always find it. But I seldom use
: this. I normally use a cheap headlight, which has 2 bright white bulbs
: and a single green LED. It came with red, but I changed it out for
: green. The white is very useful for preflights and startup, and the
: green works well for flying. It always points where I'm looking, and
: doesn't blind my FO when I need to read charts and do the company
: paperwork. I also carry a regular AA minimag, with a 2 Amp LED bulb and
: a diffusion lens, for when I really need light, especially for preflight
: walkarounds. White LEDs are great for preflights, because the synthetic
: turbine oil in the sightglasses can be hard to see using a weak yellow
: incandescent lens. The white LED light makes it show up very well.

I've run LEDs directly from AA's and found that without a bit of current
limiting they tend to damage themselves. Perhaps the AAA has a bit more internal
resistance or the LEDs you chose are a little more resilient or slightly different
material and operating voltage.

In any event, I agree that a headlamp would be nice... haven't rigged one up
yet. Trouble with all the commercial LED lights I've seen is that they're set up to
be like regular flashlights. You know... flood the area with as much light as
possible. That'll wreck any night vision in a heartbeat. The single LED works great
(as you've also found out).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Mark T. Dame]

Stan Gosnell wrote:

> "Mark T. Dame" > wrote in :
>
>
>>In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
>>the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual.
>
> My experience is mostly the opposite - I hate being under the hood, and fly much worse.
> Actual IMC is a piece of cake in comparison. YMMV.

I fly better in actual than under the hood as well and much prefer it,
but I don't get vertigo under the hood, whereas I will frequently get it
in actual. Maybe that's why I fly better in actual: I'm expecting
vertigo, so I pay more attention. (-:

I have a friend who gets vertigo so bad in actual (but not with the
foggles) that if he flies into IMC, he'll put on his foggles. Everyone
is affected differently. Which is why you want your first experience in
it to be with an experienced instructor.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"We must acknowledge once and for all that the purpose of diplomacy
is to prolong a crisis."
-- Star Trek: Spock, "The Mark of Gideon"

[Robert M. Gary]

> You may be laughing at my "proficient instructor" comment, but there are
> a lot of instructors out there who are not proficient at real IFR

100% correct. At the FBO I teach at I would argue that I'm the ONLY CFI
who feels safe going into the clouds for anything more than a little
whisp. I usually get a fair amount of actual each year. However, I
don't do instrument training (too busy)

-Robert, CFI

[Stan Gosnell]

wrote in
:

> I've run LEDs directly from AA's and found that without a bit of
> current
> limiting they tend to damage themselves. Perhaps the AAA has a bit
> more internal resistance or the LEDs you chose are a little more
> resilient or slightly different material and operating voltage.

I don't know. I've been using this light for several years with no ill
effects.

> In any event, I agree that a headlamp would be nice... haven't
> rigged one up
> yet. Trouble with all the commercial LED lights I've seen is that
> they're set up to be like regular flashlights. You know... flood the
> area with as much light as possible. That'll wreck any night vision
> in a heartbeat. The single LED works great (as you've also found
> out).

The headlight I have offers a choice of 2 focused white LEDs or a single
unfocused, unreflected LED, depending on the switch position. It's bog-
standard, except that it came with a red LED which switched for a green
one. Red light makes reading charts and LCD-based too hard to read for
me. Also, it makes no sense to me to use red light when the instrument
lights are white anyway. The human eye is most sensitive to green light,
so you need less of it to make things visible.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[Stan Gosnell]

"Mark T. Dame" > wrote in :

> I have a friend who gets vertigo so bad in actual (but not with the
> foggles) that if he flies into IMC, he'll put on his foggles.
> Everyone is affected differently. Which is why you want your first
> experience in it to be with an experienced instructor.

I certainly agree with this. But the sad fact is that most instructors,
both CFI and CFII, don't have adequate experience. This isn't likely to
change, either, given the economics of the field.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[[email protected]]

: one. Red light makes reading charts and LCD-based too hard to read for
: me. Also, it makes no sense to me to use red light when the instrument
: lights are white anyway. The human eye is most sensitive to green light,
: so you need less of it to make things visible.

My aircraft has red cabin illumination, but with the dimmer it can be turned
*way* down. Between that and the tiny green LED light, you can even make out some
semblance of color.

I think I read somewhere that the red/green debate is that red light damages
night vision the least. That's a fact. Turns out, what's more important to
preserving night vision is the *amount* of light. Since the eye is most sensitive to
green, it can be at a lower level than red and still be useful.

My completely anecdotal experiences have bourne this out.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Mark T. Dame]

Stan Gosnell wrote:

> "Mark T. Dame" > wrote in :
>
> I certainly agree with this. But the sad fact is that most instructors,
> both CFI and CFII, don't have adequate experience. This isn't likely to
> change, either, given the economics of the field.

Very true. I was fortunate in that one of the three instructors that I
took instrument training with was experienced and competent flying IMC.
He's the one I flew with the first time I flew in actual IMC.

I had three instructors during my training for exact that reason. My
primary instrument instructor is a very competent pilot and good at
teaching techniques, but he's a "weather wimp". He got a corporate job
and quit after a few months because he wasn't comfortable flying in
actual IMC. (Now he's a dispatcher for a regional airline, so he
doesn't have to worry about it.) Since I knew I wasn't going to get any
quality IMC time with him, I flew with a couple of other guys for that.
I think my primary instructor was secretly relieved that he didn't
have to do that part!


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame >
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"...he began by assuring me that it was actually pretty simple -- a
promise engineers always make just before they start speaking in
tongues."
-- J. Kluger, Discover, Aug. 1993