Cleaning Spark Plugs is a Simple Job...

[Jay Honeck]

Lately I had noticed just a smidge of roughness in the engine. Not a
roughness, really, but a slight vibration, maybe a little, tiny, occasional
miss? It was not detectable by anyone except someone who flew the plane as
often as I do (and, in fact, Mary often couldn't sense it), but it was
definitely there.

It had been 150 or so hours since we last had our spark plugs cleaned and
gapped -- a good 50 hours past optimal, according to my A&P (although
burning unleaded mogas extends that interim dramatically) -- and I had the
day off with which to test my brand new "spark plug cleaning/gapping kit"
from Aircraft Spruce. I was determined that, for once, I wouldn't bug my
mechanic about stupid, "grunt work" -- I would do it myself!

"As long as I was at it" I decided to change the oil and filter, too. We
only had 29 hours on the oil, but it had seen some hard, hot, summer
hours -- and we like to aim for every 25 hours, anyway. And then, since I
was getting all greasy anyway, I figured it was a good day to put a new
battery in the "Mighty Grape" -- our fuel hauler which Mary was forced to be
push-start last week, due to low electrons.

I, of course, figured cleaning and gapping the plugs would take an hour,
maybe two, tops. As always, I was off by a factor of four. The first thing
I realized was that I had NO idea how to gap the plugs using my new gapping
tool. It was totally different from the automotive feeler gauges I had used
in the past, as was the "feeler gauge" they supplied that looked more like a
dental tool with short lengths of guitar strings sticking out of both ends.
What the hell was I supposed to do with *that*?

No problem -- the kit (which came in a VERY handsome walnut box, BTW) came
with instructions. Unfortunately, said instructions had been xeroxed from
another xerox, which was probably copied from an old mimeograph back in the
1960s. I could barely make out every other word, and nothing really made
sense.

Staring ruefully at that beautiful, useless walnut box, I reluctantly set
off for my mechanic, kit in hand, feeling sheepish and silly. I mean,
really -- all I was doing was trying to gap the stupid spark plugs!

Always a gentleman, he cordially showed me how to work my new tools -- and
then showed me how to clean the plugs with a dental pick. Of course, this
looked like it might take all day, so he then showed me how to use his cool
little plug cleaner -- a Radio Shack engraver with a special attachment for
getting down around the electrodes. It gently vibrates (as all engravers
do) the holy hell out of the crap and corruption that builds up in there,
allowing for proper inspection of the porcelain.

Of course, the plugs were still covered with gray baked-on stuff, which can
be cleaned off with an emery cloth and some patience. This, of course,
looked like it might take all day, so he patiently showed me how to use his
cool spark plug sand-blaster, where all I had to do was stick the plug in
the hole and push a button. 15 seconds later, voila! The plug looked like
new!

Then, of course, he showed me how to get the old, hardened thread anti-seize
compound out of the threads, using a dental pick and a wire brush. This, of
course, looked like it might take all day, so he patiently showed me how to
use his bench grinder's wire brush wheel to clean all the old gook out of
the threads.

And, finally, he recommended rinsing the newly cleaned plugs in solvent
before gapping them. This, of course, looked like it might take all day, so
he showed me how to rinse them using his motorized parts washer, and dry
them off with a blast or two of compressed air.

Then it was time to actually gap the plugs. The guitar string thingy turned
out to not be a gapping tool at all, but a gap measuring tool. The one side
was a thinner wire (14?) that should pass between the sides and the
electrode when the plug is gapped correctly. The other side was a thicker
wire (18?) which should NOT pass between the sides and the electrode when
the plug was gapped properly. Thus, by the process of elimination, using
the little gap setting tool (a circular collar that threads onto the plug,
with two opposing thumbscrews that squish the sides in closer to the
electrode) you could set the gap more or less properly.

Why this is the accepted way to do this, instead of the automotive feeler
gauge tool method, I don't know. But, after a little practice, it worked.

Then it was time to rotate the plugs. I had fashioned a box with
appropriately labeled holes for all 12 plugs, and my A&P showed me the
accepted way of rotating the plugs. He admitted that there may not be a lot
of logic or utility to the practice anymore, but he advised doing it anyway.

Then it was back to the plane.

By now the oil had fully drained, and the usual hanger bums had gathered to
see what was going on. I became tied up with them in conversation, so Mary
proceeded to remove the oil filter -- a first for her. She, of course, as
we all do the first few times, managed to dump oil all over the place. The
hanger bums were beside themselves with awe (at the fact that my wife was
actually willing to *do* any of this stuff) and laughter, as she tried
desperately to do a three-handed job with only two. But she eventually
wrestled it to the ground...

Putting the plugs back in required using my other new tool -- a gigantic
Craftsman torque wrench. I had my A&P set the torque properly the first
time, just to make sure I wasn't mis-reading the danged thing and twisting
something off inside the engine. Unfortunately, I discovered that my torque
wrench was a 3/8 inch drive, and my spark plug socket was a 1/2 inch
drive -- and I didn't have an adaptor to make them work together. So, off
to the local hardware store to fetch the little bugger, and -- 20 minutes
later -- I was finally able to properly reinstall all 12 plugs, six JPI
temperature probes, six washers, and 12 wires.

Then I installed the new oil filter, and Mary added 12 quarts of Aeroshell
oil.

We then, of course, had to reattach the cowlings and do a ground run,
testing for leaks. Everything ran perfectly, without leaks, and -- although
we didn't fly, due to high winds -- I think the engine ran noticeably
smoother.

In the end, the job(s) took about 5 hours, although we wasted a lot of time
shooting the breeze. My goal of independence from my mechanic turned out to
be a complete farce, as I ended up needing his advice and tools at every
step of the job. While it's true that in the future this won't be the case,
advice-wise, using his tools sure made the job easier and the results of
higher quality -- and it doesn't make any sense for me to buy all of those
things for the twice a year I need to do this. So, I suspect I'll not be
declaring basic maintenance independence just yet...

As usual, he would not accept any money for all of his help. We ended up
buying a case of Coke for his shop, simply because that's the only thing he
said he needed -- and we felt we had to give him *something*. He's a great
guy, but I sure wish I didn't need him for such a "simple" job...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> Lately I had noticed just a smidge of roughness in the engine. Not a
> roughness, really, but a slight vibration, maybe a little, tiny,
> occasional miss? It was not detectable by anyone except someone who flew
> the plane as often as I do (and, in fact, Mary often couldn't sense it),
> but it was definitely there.


Oh my God, the prop!!


Montblack

[mikem]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Lately I had noticed just a smidge of roughness in the engine. Not a
> roughness, really, but a slight vibration, maybe a little, tiny, occasional
> miss? It was not detectable by anyone except someone who flew the plane as
> often as I do (and, in fact, Mary often couldn't sense it), but it was
> definitely there.

***Saga of changing oil, cleaning and gapping plugs deleted***

Jay, I'll wager that your roughness will still be there when you next
fly. I just went through this on an O320. I cleaned/gapped the plugs,
and this did not cure the roughness.

It turned out that my Slick Mags have 370 hours since new, and the
roughness resulted from the point gap in the Right Mag being too small.
The plastic block that opens the points had worn down to the point
where the point gap was reduced to ~0.006", instead of the specified
0.018".

This manifested as a slight roughness in flight, made more noticable by
shutting down the Left mag. The roughness was not noticable during a
run up (nor was there an asymetrical drop) .

Per the Slick SB, the mags are normally opened up at 500 hours, and the
point gap is set. Mine just happened to need this early...

Mike M.

[Jay Honeck]

> Per the Slick SB, the mags are normally opened up at 500 hours, and the
> point gap is set. Mine just happened to need this early...

You know, I've wondered about this. Our left mag shows a smidge more of a
drop than the right mag -- it's, again, probably not noticeable to someone
who doesn't fly the plane all the time.

What's involved with setting the mag point gap?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Oh my God, the prop!!

Funny you should mention that. It could, actually, *be* the prop -- but to
my ear it sounds more like a very slight engine roughness rather than a prop
imbalance.

Sometimes it's hard to separate the two -- and sounds have a funny way of
traveling.

For example, our Subaru Outback has developed a very annoying rattle in the
right rear that starts at around 50 mph. It's a harmonic rattle, and we've
looked at EVERYTHING trying to find something loose, to no avail. Yet,
clearly, there is something very loose, somewhere. Our best guess at this
point is that it's something inside the right rear door -- but I haven't had
time to rip it apart to see.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mikem]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > Per the Slick SB, the mags are normally opened up at 500 hours, and the
> > point gap is set. Mine just happened to need this early...
>
> You know, I've wondered about this. Our left mag shows a smidge more of a
> drop than the right mag -- it's, again, probably not noticeable to someone
> who doesn't fly the plane all the time.
>
> What's involved with setting the mag point gap?

Talk to your A&P. Proceedure is specified in the Service Bulletin.
Mag(s) have to be removed, split, internally inspected (particularly
the impulse coupling), lubricated, both the E gap and points gap set,
new gaskets, reinstalled on the engine, and retimed.

Mike M.

[[email protected]]

: What's involved with setting the mag point gap?

Depends on the mag. I'm not familiar with slicks, but on my Bendix there
aren't quite enough adjustments to set everything. The wear of the points vs. the
plastic wear block is fixed by the points. If either is out of spec, new points are
required.

I'd agree with the checking of the internal mag timing (i.e. e-gap). If
you've got a few hundred hours on the mags and/or if it's had the external timing
adjusted, it may have worn a bit out of spec. We just did it on both our mags last
year. Again... it's Bendix.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[karl gruber]

Did he also show you how to install new spark plug gaskets or re-anneal
the old ones?

[Jay Honeck]

> Did he also show you how to install new spark plug gaskets or re-anneal
> the old ones?

Yep.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: > Did he also show you how to install new spark plug gaskets or re-anneal
: > the old ones?

: Yep.

Which reminds me... should one try to do that on the spark-plug thermocouples
for measureing CHT? It's always bothered me that they *replace* the original copper
gaskets.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> : > Did he also show you how to install new spark plug gaskets or re-anneal
> : > the old ones?
>
> : Yep.
>
> Which reminds me... should one try to do that on the spark-plug thermocouples
> for measureing CHT? It's always bothered me that they *replace* the original copper
> gaskets.

No. As long as you get the gasket/washer/thermocouple on the same way
it came off, it's fine.

Which, by the way, is also true of the regular copper washers/gaskets
under your spark plugs, per my A&P.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <77TYe.360799$_o.107797@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> For example, our Subaru Outback has developed a very annoying rattle in the
> right rear that starts at around 50 mph. It's a harmonic rattle, and we've
> looked at EVERYTHING trying to find something loose, to no avail. Yet,
> clearly, there is something very loose, somewhere. Our best guess at this
> point is that it's something inside the right rear door -- but I haven't had
> time to rip it apart to see.

turn up the radio!!!!

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[RST Engineering]

It certainly is an easy job. You get your mechanic to save a set of plugs
for your engine from some other owner who has more money than good sense and
changes them with a few thousand hours left on them, you sent this set to
AIrcraft Spark Plug Service in Van Nuys CA, and they send you back
surgically clean, gapped, and "bomb tested" plugs with a new gasket in a
sealed plastic tube for about $4 a plug.

If one of the plugs will not pass muster, they will sell you a good
reconditioned plug in approximately the same wear condition as the bad plug
for about $8.

This is the inexpensive way to do it.



Jim

[Jay Masino]

Wow. I'm not exactly sure why you had to waste 132 line to tell us you
just learned how to clean your sparkplugs, but I'm shocked it took you so
many years to learn to do it. Do yourself a favor and get one of these...

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/cgi-bin/air/hazel.cgi?action=serve&item=/Aircraft/Tools/SparkPlugService.html#SparkPlugCleaner

It cleans your plugs in short order, and does a good job. Just don't
over do it. You can prematurely wear them out by "over" cleaning them
with one of these.

--- Jay



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[N93332]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> Wow. I'm not exactly sure why you had to waste 132 line to tell us you
> just learned how to clean your sparkplugs, but I'm shocked it took you so
> many years to learn to do it.

I got a lot of information out of Jay's post about his experience cleaning
the plugs. I'm a fairly new aircraft owner and have thought about pulling
the plugs to recheck the gap and clean them as needed. But after reading
through Jay's post, I'm not about to attempt it yet without having someone
giving me some guidance. I also don't have the luxury of an on-airport
mechanic available to ask for assistance like Jay has.

Until I get the proper equipment needed, some guidance, and some old plugs
to practice on first, I'm not about to touch my plane's plugs, yet. I kept
Jay's post so at least I have some idea as to what and what not to do...

-Greg B.

[BTIZ]

5hours will eventually become 2,... after you have more $$ invested in all
his neat little time $aver tool$

good to work on your own things.. stocking up his Cola closet was a nice
touch.

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:SjLYe.157590$084.124008@attbi_s22...
> Lately I had noticed just a smidge of roughness in the engine. Not a
> roughness, really, but a slight vibration, maybe a little, tiny,
> occasional miss? It was not detectable by anyone except someone who flew
> the plane as often as I do (and, in fact, Mary often couldn't sense it),
> but it was definitely there.
>
> It had been 150 or so hours since we last had our spark plugs cleaned and
> gapped -- a good 50 hours past optimal, according to my A&P (although
> burning unleaded mogas extends that interim dramatically) -- and I had the
> day off with which to test my brand new "spark plug cleaning/gapping kit"
> from Aircraft Spruce. I was determined that, for once, I wouldn't bug my
> mechanic about stupid, "grunt work" -- I would do it myself!
>
> "As long as I was at it" I decided to change the oil and filter, too. We
> only had 29 hours on the oil, but it had seen some hard, hot, summer
> hours -- and we like to aim for every 25 hours, anyway. And then, since I
> was getting all greasy anyway, I figured it was a good day to put a new
> battery in the "Mighty Grape" -- our fuel hauler which Mary was forced to
> be push-start last week, due to low electrons.
>
> I, of course, figured cleaning and gapping the plugs would take an hour,
> maybe two, tops. As always, I was off by a factor of four. The first
> thing I realized was that I had NO idea how to gap the plugs using my new
> gapping tool. It was totally different from the automotive feeler gauges
> I had used in the past, as was the "feeler gauge" they supplied that
> looked more like a dental tool with short lengths of guitar strings
> sticking out of both ends. What the hell was I supposed to do with *that*?
>
> No problem -- the kit (which came in a VERY handsome walnut box, BTW) came
> with instructions. Unfortunately, said instructions had been xeroxed from
> another xerox, which was probably copied from an old mimeograph back in
> the 1960s. I could barely make out every other word, and nothing really
> made sense.
>
> Staring ruefully at that beautiful, useless walnut box, I reluctantly set
> off for my mechanic, kit in hand, feeling sheepish and silly. I mean,
> really -- all I was doing was trying to gap the stupid spark plugs!
>
> Always a gentleman, he cordially showed me how to work my new tools -- and
> then showed me how to clean the plugs with a dental pick. Of course,
> this looked like it might take all day, so he then showed me how to use
> his cool little plug cleaner -- a Radio Shack engraver with a special
> attachment for getting down around the electrodes. It gently vibrates (as
> all engravers do) the holy hell out of the crap and corruption that builds
> up in there, allowing for proper inspection of the porcelain.
>
> Of course, the plugs were still covered with gray baked-on stuff, which
> can be cleaned off with an emery cloth and some patience. This, of
> course, looked like it might take all day, so he patiently showed me how
> to use his cool spark plug sand-blaster, where all I had to do was stick
> the plug in the hole and push a button. 15 seconds later, voila! The
> plug looked like new!
>
> Then, of course, he showed me how to get the old, hardened thread
> anti-seize compound out of the threads, using a dental pick and a wire
> brush. This, of course, looked like it might take all day, so he patiently
> showed me how to use his bench grinder's wire brush wheel to clean all the
> old gook out of the threads.
>
> And, finally, he recommended rinsing the newly cleaned plugs in solvent
> before gapping them. This, of course, looked like it might take all day,
> so he showed me how to rinse them using his motorized parts washer, and
> dry them off with a blast or two of compressed air.
>
> Then it was time to actually gap the plugs. The guitar string thingy
> turned out to not be a gapping tool at all, but a gap measuring tool. The
> one side was a thinner wire (14?) that should pass between the sides and
> the electrode when the plug is gapped correctly. The other side was a
> thicker wire (18?) which should NOT pass between the sides and the
> electrode when the plug was gapped properly. Thus, by the process of
> elimination, using the little gap setting tool (a circular collar that
> threads onto the plug, with two opposing thumbscrews that squish the sides
> in closer to the electrode) you could set the gap more or less properly.
>
> Why this is the accepted way to do this, instead of the automotive feeler
> gauge tool method, I don't know. But, after a little practice, it worked.
>
> Then it was time to rotate the plugs. I had fashioned a box with
> appropriately labeled holes for all 12 plugs, and my A&P showed me the
> accepted way of rotating the plugs. He admitted that there may not be a
> lot of logic or utility to the practice anymore, but he advised doing it
> anyway.
>
> Then it was back to the plane.
>
> By now the oil had fully drained, and the usual hanger bums had gathered
> to see what was going on. I became tied up with them in conversation, so
> Mary proceeded to remove the oil filter -- a first for her. She, of
> course, as we all do the first few times, managed to dump oil all over the
> place. The hanger bums were beside themselves with awe (at the fact that
> my wife was actually willing to *do* any of this stuff) and laughter, as
> she tried desperately to do a three-handed job with only two. But she
> eventually wrestled it to the ground...
>
> Putting the plugs back in required using my other new tool -- a gigantic
> Craftsman torque wrench. I had my A&P set the torque properly the first
> time, just to make sure I wasn't mis-reading the danged thing and twisting
> something off inside the engine. Unfortunately, I discovered that my
> torque wrench was a 3/8 inch drive, and my spark plug socket was a 1/2
> inch drive -- and I didn't have an adaptor to make them work together.
> So, off to the local hardware store to fetch the little bugger, and -- 20
> minutes later -- I was finally able to properly reinstall all 12 plugs,
> six JPI temperature probes, six washers, and 12 wires.
>
> Then I installed the new oil filter, and Mary added 12 quarts of Aeroshell
> oil.
>
> We then, of course, had to reattach the cowlings and do a ground run,
> testing for leaks. Everything ran perfectly, without leaks, and --
> although we didn't fly, due to high winds -- I think the engine ran
> noticeably smoother.
>
> In the end, the job(s) took about 5 hours, although we wasted a lot of
> time shooting the breeze. My goal of independence from my mechanic turned
> out to be a complete farce, as I ended up needing his advice and tools at
> every step of the job. While it's true that in the future this won't be
> the case, advice-wise, using his tools sure made the job easier and the
> results of higher quality -- and it doesn't make any sense for me to buy
> all of those things for the twice a year I need to do this. So, I
> suspect I'll not be declaring basic maintenance independence just yet...
>
> As usual, he would not accept any money for all of his help. We ended up
> buying a case of Coke for his shop, simply because that's the only thing
> he said he needed -- and we felt we had to give him *something*. He's a
> great guy, but I sure wish I didn't need him for such a "simple" job...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Wow. I'm not exactly sure why you had to waste 132 line to tell us you
> just learned how to clean your sparkplugs

Why, because I *knew* it would **** you off, Jay!

:-)

Seriously, we're not all experts here. I write like things like that
because when I was a new owner, I learned from other posters who wrote stuff
like that here.

Lately, it seems like there has been a dearth of instructional "how-to"
posts (like Mike Spera's excellent "replace the interior" series) here. I
would like to read more of them, and -- when I can -- I will continue to
contribute them.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

Hey Jay,
I'm always happy to see you get your hands dirty! :) With your interest
currently peaked about changing spark plugs, I'd suggest googleing about it.
Both Lycoming and Champion have some good articles online concerning torque,
gaps, gaskets, anti-seize and other spark plug related subjects.
Jim

[Margy]

Jay Honeck wrote:
o, I suspect I'll not be
> declaring basic maintenance independence just yet...
>
> As usual, he would not accept any money for all of his help. We ended up
> buying a case of Coke for his shop, simply because that's the only thing he
> said he needed -- and we felt we had to give him *something*. He's a great
> guy, but I sure wish I didn't need him for such a "simple" job...

I always find my mechanic is pleased when after using her tools I sweep
the hangar, go buy lunch, bring the sodas, etc.

Margy

[john smith]

> Our best guess at this point is that it's something inside the
> right rear door -- but I haven't had time to rip it apart to see.

Is that where Joe or Becka sits?

[john smith]

> Putting the plugs back in required using my other new tool -- a gigantic
> Craftsman torque wrench. I had my A&P set the torque properly the first
> time, just to make sure I wasn't mis-reading the danged thing and twisting
> something off inside the engine.

If I read this correctly, you got the torque wrench that "breaks" at the
torque set on the handle.
When you finished, did you "properly" store the torque wrench?
(Just a test to see if you read the instructions that came with the
tool.)

[Jay Honeck]

> When you finished, did you "properly" store the torque wrench?
> (Just a test to see if you read the instructions that came with the
> tool.)

Um, well, I very carefully put it back in the cheap plastic case it came in,
and wrapped the directions around the handle.

Was there more to it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <NwoZe.161520$084.66032@attbi_s22>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > When you finished, did you "properly" store the torque wrench?
> > (Just a test to see if you read the instructions that came with the
> > tool.)
>
> Um, well, I very carefully put it back in the cheap plastic case it came in,
> and wrapped the directions around the handle.
>
> Was there more to it?

unlock it, and unload the setting (e.g., set the torque setting to the low
end of the scale).

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

[Scott Skylane]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Um, well, I very carefully put it back in the cheap plastic case it came in,
> and wrapped the directions around the handle.
>
> Was there more to it?

Jay,

He's trying to dazzle you with the brilliance that he knows to set the
torque wrench back to "zero" when you put it away. This relieves
tension on the internal spring, thus not wearing it out. (hope you did
this)

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <NwoZe.161520$084.66032@attbi_s22>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > When you finished, did you "properly" store the torque wrench?
> > (Just a test to see if you read the instructions that came with the
> > tool.)
>
> Um, well, I very carefully put it back in the cheap plastic case it came in,
> and wrapped the directions around the handle.
>
> Was there more to it?


Yup. You are supposed to reset the torque setting to zero when you put
the wrench away. Otherwise, the torque wrench can acquire a set and lose
calibration -- usually it will click early, or a a lower than designated
torque.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Our best guess at this
> point is that it's something inside the right rear door -- but I haven't had
> time to rip it apart to see.

A friend of mine worked on the warrantee line of a Datsun dealer back in the
late 70s. One day he got in a car with the same complaint you have. Opened up
the door and found an unopened can of soda with Japanese lettering. Near as he
could figure, the factory had a rule against food on the assembly line, and some
manager happened by just as one of the workers was about to open the can, so he
stuffed it in the door and put the panel on.

Al said it didn't taste very good to him.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

Margy wrote:

> I always find my mechanic is pleased when after using her tools I sweep
> the hangar, go buy lunch, bring the sodas, etc.

And I just find that my mechanic gets ****ed when I use his tools. :-)

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jay Honeck]

> He's trying to dazzle you with the brilliance that he knows to set the
> torque wrench back to "zero" when you put it away. This relieves tension
> on the internal spring, thus not wearing it out. (hope you did this)

Well, nope, I sure didn't.

But I'll do it tomorrow when I'm at the hangar...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> But I'll do it tomorrow when I'm at the hangar...

Too late, you've ruined it!


(just kidding) :-)

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Why, because I *knew* it would **** you off, Jay!
>
ROTFL...

Well, that and you're one of those guys that thinks we have a limited
supply of lines Jay. Dontcha know, it's like oil...there is a finite
amount of lines to be written Jay...don't waste them man...the rest of
us have lines to write...come on man, play fair...please?

:-)




--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Michelle P]

Jay,
If you have a shield around the exhaust check for dirt, sand and small
rocks. This will sound like the car is falling apart.
Michelle

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Oh my God, the prop!!
>>
>>
>
>Funny you should mention that. It could, actually, *be* the prop -- but to
>my ear it sounds more like a very slight engine roughness rather than a prop
>imbalance.
>
>Sometimes it's hard to separate the two -- and sounds have a funny way of
>traveling.
>
>For example, our Subaru Outback has developed a very annoying rattle in the
>right rear that starts at around 50 mph. It's a harmonic rattle, and we've
>looked at EVERYTHING trying to find something loose, to no avail. Yet,
>clearly, there is something very loose, somewhere. Our best guess at this
>point is that it's something inside the right rear door -- but I haven't had
>time to rip it apart to see.
>
>

[john smith]

> > When you finished, did you "properly" store the torque wrench?
> > (Just a test to see if you read the instructions that came with the
> > tool.)

> Um, well, I very carefully put it back in the cheap plastic case it came in,
> and wrapped the directions around the handle.
> Was there more to it?

You are supposed to release the setting/set it to zero/whatever it is
called, to take the pressure/stress/strain/whatever off the torque break
mechanism.

[Margy]

George Patterson wrote:
> Margy wrote:
>
>> I always find my mechanic is pleased when after using her tools I
>> sweep the hangar, go buy lunch, bring the sodas, etc.
>
>
> And I just find that my mechanic gets ****ed when I use his tools. :-)

Not everyone is allowed to use her tools and you know which ones you can
and can't and if one asks, puts away and cleans up they get to use them
again.

Margy
>
> George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[[email protected]]

Releasing the tension on the torque wrench's spring maintains its
accuracy, but most torque wrenches aren't very accurate when new,
especially cheap imported ones. Standard practice as per AC43.13 (and
required by aircraft maintenance law, at least in Canada) is to have it
calibrated when new, and then every year or two depending on use. It
can cost more to calibrate the thing than it cost to buy it, which is
why they're so inaccurate when boxed at the factory.

Dan

[[email protected]]

>Talk to your A&P. Proceedure is specified in the Service Bulletin.
>Mag(s) have to be removed, split, internally inspected (particularly
>the impulse coupling), lubricated, both the E gap and points gap set,
>new gaskets, reinstalled on the engine, and retimed.

The E-gap is determined by points gap; they're not separate
settings. The ideal is to set the E-gap, since wear to the points and
cam can result in the wrong E-gap if the adjustment is made using
points gap.
Most of my students struggle with the theory of the magneto's
operation, and I imagine most pilots are no better off. The E-gap is
the point at which the mag's rotor (a strong permanent magnet) is past
the neutral point after having generated a current in the primary
winding. This current generates its own field, which in beginning to
collapse tends to maintain current flow in the winding after the rotor
has passed through neutral and stopped generating. To get spark, we
open the points when the maximum magnetic flux change will happen, and
when the points open the current is arrested suddenly, the field
collapses violently, generating a large voltage in the secondary
winding. Big spark for the plug.
If the E-gap is off, the spark's strength is reduced and
roughness may occur.

Mag that are slightly mistimed can cause roughness, too. If the
engine's data plate calls for them to be set at the same TDC angle, you
want them real close to being together. If one is much later than the
other. the pressure rise in the cylinder caused by the first plug's
firing can get high enough to prevent the second plug's firing, and the
cylinder loses a bit of power. Sparkplugs need more voltage than mags
can provide to spark at high pressures.
Worn points cause resistance that prevents full current flow in
the primary winding. A worn capacitor can leak and reduce spark
intensity. An open capacitor can kill spark altogether, and one will
reduced capacity will burn the points. The Slick distributor's rotor
bushings wear and the rotor's finger gap can get too big and weaken
spark. Lots of reasons to open the mags and spend a bit of money on
them.
We've recently had trouble with AC plugs; the internal resistor
seems to be failing. Champs have had that problem for years.

Dan

[Jay Honeck]

> If you have a shield around the exhaust check for dirt, sand and small
> rocks. This will sound like the car is falling apart.

Thanks, Michelle -- but I just found the source of the rattle ten minutes
ago. I took the right rear door apart, and the retaining screws for the
stereo speaker had simply vibrated out over the last 8 years. The speaker
was just laying loose inside the door...

And to think I laid under the car for 30 minutes trying to find loose
stuff... Argh.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Lots of reasons to open the mags and spend a bit of money on
> them.

<Much good stuff snipped>

Wow -- thanks, Dan. I didn't understand half of what you wrote, but I've
saved your post for the future day when I've got time to figure out things
like "electricity" and "engines"...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> >Talk to your A&P. Proceedure is specified in the Service Bulletin.
>>Mag(s) have to be removed, split, internally inspected (particularly
>>the impulse coupling), lubricated, both the E gap and points gap set,
>>new gaskets, reinstalled on the engine, and retimed.
>
> The E-gap is determined by points gap; they're not separate
> settings. The ideal is to set the E-gap, since wear to the points and
> cam can result in the wrong E-gap if the adjustment is made using
> points gap.
> Most of my students struggle with the theory of the magneto's
> operation, and I imagine most pilots are no better off. The E-gap is
> the point at which the mag's rotor (a strong permanent magnet) is past
> the neutral point after having generated a current in the primary
> winding. This current generates its own field, which in beginning to
> collapse tends to maintain current flow in the winding after the rotor
> has passed through neutral and stopped generating. To get spark, we
> open the points when the maximum magnetic flux change will happen, and
> when the points open the current is arrested suddenly, the field
> collapses violently, generating a large voltage in the secondary
> winding. Big spark for the plug.
> If the E-gap is off, the spark's strength is reduced and
> roughness may occur.
>
> Mag that are slightly mistimed can cause roughness, too. If the
> engine's data plate calls for them to be set at the same TDC angle, you
> want them real close to being together. If one is much later than the
> other. the pressure rise in the cylinder caused by the first plug's
> firing can get high enough to prevent the second plug's firing, and the
> cylinder loses a bit of power. Sparkplugs need more voltage than mags
> can provide to spark at high pressures.
> Worn points cause resistance that prevents full current flow in
> the primary winding. A worn capacitor can leak and reduce spark
> intensity. An open capacitor can kill spark altogether, and one will
> reduced capacity will burn the points. The Slick distributor's rotor
> bushings wear and the rotor's finger gap can get too big and weaken
> We've recently had trouble with AC plugs; the internal resistor
> seems to be failing. Champs have had that problem for years.
>
> Dan
>

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Why, because I *knew* it would **** you off, Jay!
> :-)

Nah.

> Seriously, we're not all experts here. I write like things like that
> because when I was a new owner, I learned from other posters who wrote stuff
> like that here.

It's a good idea, but if you really look at your post, you're not really
teaching anyone anything. You mostly said "my mechanic showed me how
to...", etc. I think that cleaning/gapping sparkplugs is probably one of
those things that someone needs to *see*. If we're gonna teach the
newsgroup newbies, we should probably document how to do it with digital
pictures and post them somewhere.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[[email protected]]

>It's a good idea, but if you really look at your post, you're not really
>teaching anyone anything.

He's teaching much. A lot of other pilots might think cleaning
and gapping plugs is a simple thing, and Jay's detailing of his
experience showed that it's not. Reading his post saves them fumbling
through the same process if they realize they're not going to enjoy it,
and might save them money if it keeps them from damaging plugs or
stripping plug threads out of the cylinder head.

Dan

[nrp]

wrote:
> Releasing the which is
> why they're so inaccurate when boxed at the factory.
>
> Dan

Which is why I prefer bending beam type torque wrenches. At least the
stiffness of steel won't change with time. If it returns to zero, it
should be OK to use again. With the detent/click type, you never know,
although I don't see where returning them to zero will reduce any
internal plastic deformation. Steel doesn't creep at normal
temperatures.


One minor additional thing - Occasionally also clean the sparkplug
helicoil threads in the cylinder. Somewhere (a surplus tore as I
recall) I found some small wire brushes about 3/8 inch dia that could
be chucked into an electric drill and slowly rotated in the threaded
hole to clean the crud out of the threads.

[George Patterson]

nrp wrote:

> I found some small wire brushes about 3/8 inch dia that could
> be chucked into an electric drill and slowly rotated in the threaded
> hole to clean the crud out of the threads.

Probably .30 caliber rifle cleaning brushes.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:50:17 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> If you have a shield around the exhaust check for dirt, sand and small
>> rocks. This will sound like the car is falling apart.
>
>Thanks, Michelle -- but I just found the source of the rattle ten minutes
>ago. I took the right rear door apart, and the retaining screws for the
>stereo speaker had simply vibrated out over the last 8 years. The speaker
>was just laying loose inside the door...
>
>And to think I laid under the car for 30 minutes trying to find loose
>stuff... Argh.
Jay you should have better faith in Subaru ;-)

[Gary]

OMG Jay that was one awsome read!! I had a smile on my face the whole time I
was reading it (all except the first part about the rough running engine) I
know cause I like to work on my own cars and trucks, And my wife is now
finally starting to accept the idea that she should get her hands dirty too!
:)

One day when I finally get my PPL and can own a plane I would love to get
the tools out and tinker! I think I'll get the wife out to help too! :O


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:SjLYe.157590$084.124008@attbi_s22...
>
>

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: >It's a good idea, but if you really look at your post, you're not really
: >teaching anyone anything.

: He's teaching much. A lot of other pilots might think cleaning
: and gapping plugs is a simple thing, and Jay's detailing of his
: experience showed that it's not. Reading his post saves them fumbling
: through the same process if they realize they're not going to enjoy it,
: and might save them money if it keeps them from damaging plugs or
: stripping plug threads out of the cylinder head.

Exactly. Ignorance is bliss, but not necessarily healthy for aircraft
maintenance. If you don't *know* you're doing something wrong or forgot to do
something right, you won't seek out the correct way.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

>I found some small wire brushes about 3/8 inch dia >that could
>be chucked into an electric drill and slowly rotated >in the threaded
>hole to clean the crud out of the threads.

I pump compressed air into the cylinder through one plug
hole while picking the crud out of the threads of the other. This makes
sure the stuff doesn't lay in the cylinder and get into places it
shouldn't. Got to wear goggles while doing it, and a respirator is a
good idea, since the dust has lead in it.
Chunks of the stuff have caused problems when they break
off in flight: they can foul a plug or get under a valve and reduce
power. Not a good thing if you're just lifting off.

Dan

[nrp]

Good idea using a gun cleaning brush & an air blast.

Which also brings to mind a thought that John Thorp expressed many
years ago. If compression is going to be measured, remove the bottom
plug first so crud doesn't fall on an open exhaust valve sealing
surface. Then rotate the engine to TDC before removing the top plug.

[Ross Richardson]

My (>50 years in the business) A&P has me replace the gaskets each time
I clean the plugs. I never reuse them. He as all the nice equipment that
you mentioned. Easy job.


-------------
Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


Jay Honeck wrote:
>>: > Did he also show you how to install new spark plug gaskets or re-anneal
>>: > the old ones?
>>
>>: Yep.
>>
>> Which reminds me... should one try to do that on the spark-plug thermocouples
>>for measureing CHT? It's always bothered me that they *replace* the original copper
>>gaskets.
>
>
> No. As long as you get the gasket/washer/thermocouple on the same way
> it came off, it's fine.
>
> Which, by the way, is also true of the regular copper washers/gaskets
> under your spark plugs, per my A&P.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Dave Butler]

> The speaker
> was just laying loose inside the door...

Yum! Speaker eggs.

[[email protected]]

On 25 Sep 2005 19:26:01 -0700, "nrp" > wrote:

snip
>One minor additional thing - Occasionally also clean the sparkplug
>helicoil threads in the cylinder. Somewhere (a surplus tore as I
>recall) I found some small wire brushes about 3/8 inch dia that could
>be chucked into an electric drill and slowly rotated in the threaded
>hole to clean the crud out of the threads.

Champion useta sell a thread chaser for this purpose. Looked a lot
like a spark plug, had cut-outs in the threads to catch the crud. SOP
was stick a finger full of grease into the cut-outs to help it
"stick".

TC

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
wrote:

> On 25 Sep 2005 19:26:01 -0700, "nrp" > wrote:
>
> snip
> >One minor additional thing - Occasionally also clean the sparkplug
> >helicoil threads in the cylinder. Somewhere (a surplus tore as I
> >recall) I found some small wire brushes about 3/8 inch dia that could
> >be chucked into an electric drill and slowly rotated in the threaded
> >hole to clean the crud out of the threads.
>
> Champion useta sell a thread chaser for this purpose. Looked a lot
> like a spark plug, had cut-outs in the threads to catch the crud. SOP
> was stick a finger full of grease into the cut-outs to help it
> "stick".
>
> TC


I don't see why you couldn't make a chaser out of an old plug, using a
Moto Tool to cut the tapping slots.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 02:35:01 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote:


>I don't see why you couldn't make a chaser out of an old plug, using a
>Moto Tool to cut the tapping slots.

umm errr-that's what I used before one of my employers bought me the
jen-yoo-wine article. Actually, I used a new plug that I had dropped
and subsequently busted the guts out of so somebody else wouldn't try
to stick in in an airplane.

A very important part of Jay's plug-cleaning story was
solvent-cleaning after grit-blasting. Since OSHA didn't spend a lot of
time in the hangar, I allegedly used a highly toxic low-flashpoint
solvent drained out of a nearby sump drain into a cut-down oil bottle.

Had a customer ask me why I was wasting my time (and his money)
rinsing the plugs. Showed him the grit in the bottom of the bottle and
asked him if he really wanted it inside his engine...

TC

[mikem]

wrote:

.... good info snipped...

> We've recently had trouble with AC plugs; the internal resistor
> seems to be failing. Champs have had that problem for years.

Dan,
I recently used my Fluke 77 DMM to check eight Champion REM40E
spark plugs, which have a built in radio suppression resistor. I
measured Ohms between center electrodes and threads (all Open). I then
measured the resistance through the center electrode from the wire end
to the electrode end, and noticed that two of eight plugs were "Open"
(>10MegOhm), while the other six ranged from 1.4K to about 7K.

I expected all of these to be the same resistance, but was surprised at
the variablity plug to plug. I am puzzled at the two that read open.
They were not misfiring before removal. What's going on?

btw- I also measured 12 brand-new RHM40Es; 4 of 12 were open end to
end???

[RST Engineering]

But for the love of Orville, paint the top of the sonofoabitch red or
somebody will try and use it in an airplane as a spark plug. GUARANTEED.

I've got two of them around here. One with a narrow slot for fairly clean
helicoils and one with a Tijuana whore's slot for absolutely filthy
helicoils.

Toecutter's comment about grease in the slot is right on. However, wipe the
helicoil out after you do the cleaning or the grease will stick the next
plug tighter than Tilly's titty.

I switched from the graphite thread lube to the copper loaded stuff and have
found an absolute order of magnitude of ease of removal. Any other
comments?


Jim



"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>> On 25 Sep 2005 19:26:01 -0700, "nrp" > wrote:
>> Champion useta sell a thread chaser for this purpose. Looked a lot
>> like a spark plug, had cut-outs in the threads to catch the crud. SOP
>> was stick a finger full of grease into the cut-outs to help it
>> "stick".
>>
>> TC
>
>
> I don't see why you couldn't make a chaser out of an old plug, using a
> Moto Tool to cut the tapping slots.

[RST Engineering]

"mikem" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> (>10MegOhm), while the other six ranged from 1.4K to about 7K.
>
> I expected all of these to be the same resistance, but was surprised at
> the variablity plug to plug. I am puzzled at the two that read open.
> They were not misfiring before removal. What's going on?

No problem. The ones that read open had a sub-thousandth crack on the
resistor and would arc across the crack before going to the two orders of
magnitude larger crack called a spark gap.


>
> btw- I also measured 12 brand-new RHM40Es; 4 of 12 were open end to
> end???

QC strikes again. They only "bomb test" the suckers. If there is a minute
crack between the resistor and the plug, they figure that the plug gap will
predominate in the sparking mechanisms. With the obvious comment that a
spark in oxygen rich atmosphere will wear down a contact MUCH further than
in the combustion chamber. Thus a failed plug in a few hundred hours. I'd
suggest you reject the opens. Unless we all continue to do so, plug
manufacturers will be getting away with this slop.

Jim

[[email protected]]

We learned a long time ago to bomb-test even brand-new
plugs. We've had new Champs fail right out of the box. It can't be just
a tiny crack in the resistor; there has to be something else going on
here. When I remove that screw inside the barrel and take out the
spring and resistor, I can't find anything wrong with it. And if I take
that stuff out of a working plug, it doesn't want to work again after
reassembly. I think there's something wrong with the spring-loaded
resistor concept.
The old Auburn plugs had a molded-in resistor that seldom
failed, and AC copied that idea but have had some trouble anyway.
Now here's a debate: The resistor was originally to reduce
radio interference in automotive plugs. Since aircraft plugs are
shielded, that's not necessary. The textbooks say that the resistor is
there to shorten the spark duration and reduce electrode erosion.
Wouldn't it be better to leave the resistor out and accept shorter but
consistent plug life?

Dan

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: Now here's a debate: The resistor was originally to reduce
: radio interference in automotive plugs. Since aircraft plugs are
: shielded, that's not necessary. The textbooks say that the resistor is
: there to shorten the spark duration and reduce electrode erosion.
: Wouldn't it be better to leave the resistor out and accept shorter but
: consistent plug life?

It *may* be acceptable, but the shielding isn't 100". Also, the increased
distributed capacitance of the shielded plug wires would lead to extra-high currents
if there were no resistance in the loop. I think that plug life is already pretty
low... it would probably be horrid without the resistor.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Montblack]

("Dave Butler" wrote)
> > The speaker was just laying loose inside the door...

> Yum! Speaker eggs.


Yum, food based - finally, you're in *my* wheelhouse.

So, the speaker is now the pencil?


Montblack

[Jay Honeck]

> My (>50 years in the business) A&P has me replace the gaskets each time I
> clean the plugs. I never reuse them. He as all the nice equipment that you
> mentioned. Easy job.

My mechanic is also very old school. (42 years as an A&P/IA) He's also a
former Grand Champion EAA and AAA home-builder. He's also the guy who
overhauled my engine.

The guy knows his stuff.

If he says the washers can be re-used, so long as you make sure they go back
on the same way they came off (so that the perfectly mated side matches the
under-side of the plug), I believe him.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[karl gruber]

Airpower has a pretty good deal on NEW Autolite plugs right now, until
Oct 14th.

New $8.95 each

866-287-8506

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[No Spam]

On 9/28/05 09:15, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> If he says the washers can be re-used, so long as you make sure they go back
> on the same way they came off (so that the perfectly mated side matches the
> under-side of the plug), I believe him.
> --
> Jay Honeck

Jay,

How should they be installed the first time? There's a flat side and a
rounded side to the washers - which goes toward the cylinder and which goes
toward the plug?

-> Don
Whether we call it sacrifice, or poetry, or adventure,
it is always the same voice that calls.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Doug]

I switched to irridium plugs and have fewer problems. They seem to go
longer between needing cleaning. They last virtually forever (2000
hours plus). Careful not to sandblast them too much as they are
delicate.

[Ross Richardson]

I'm not Jay, but the flat side goes to the cylinder.


-------------
Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI


No Spam wrote:
> On 9/28/05 09:15, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>
>>If he says the washers can be re-used, so long as you make sure they go back
>>on the same way they came off (so that the perfectly mated side matches the
>>under-side of the plug), I believe him.
>>--
>>Jay Honeck
>
>
> Jay,
>
> How should they be installed the first time? There's a flat side and a
> rounded side to the washers - which goes toward the cylinder and which goes
> toward the plug?
>
> -> Don
> Whether we call it sacrifice, or poetry, or adventure,
> it is always the same voice that calls.
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>
>

[No Spam]

On 10/5/05 10:51, "Ross Richardson" > wrote:

> I'm not Jay, but the flat side goes to the cylinder.
>
>
> -------------
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI
>
>
> No Spam wrote:
>> On 9/28/05 09:15, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If he says the washers can be re-used, so long as you make sure they go back
>>> on the same way they came off (so that the perfectly mated side matches the
>>> under-side of the plug), I believe him.
>>> --
>>> Jay Honeck
>>
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>> How should they be installed the first time? There's a flat side and a
>> rounded side to the washers - which goes toward the cylinder and which goes
>> toward the plug?
>>
>> -> Don
>> Whether we call it sacrifice, or poetry, or adventure,
>> it is always the same voice that calls.
>> - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
>>
>>

Thanks, Ross.

-> Don
Any nation that does not honor its heroes will not long endure
- A. Lincoln