Should you tell Tower you're departing IFR

[John Clonts]

or should they just know it already?

I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.

Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.

Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
"local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[S Narayan]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> or should they just know it already?
>
> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
> clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
>

I tell tower I am waiting for IFR release. But considering the traffic in
your area, they probably forgot.

Last week, they got my destination wrong and that messed up a few things
during handoffs between controllers, but eventually it sorted itself out.

[rps]

I fly out of a pretty busy towered airport. I've been taught to always
inform tower that I'm IFR. I believe that is because the tower has to
coordinate with the local center/approach before an IFR flight launches
as each controller can only handle a specified number of planes
simultaneously. That's probably why you are sometimes requested to
"standby for release."

[Bob Gardner]

I recommend that practice. Can't hurt.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> or should they just know it already?
>
> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
> clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>
> Thanks!
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/23/2005 09:01, John Clonts wrote:

> or should they just know it already?
>
> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
> clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).

Well, you get your clearance from Ground/Clearance Delivery, but then
there may be any number of delays between that time, and when you're
ready to take off.

You need to let the tower know when you're ready (by telling them that
you're holding for IFR release). The tower then begins negotiating for
a slot in the 'system' for your flight. Once they have a slot ready,
they clear you to take off.

I was told this 'holding for release' should never take more than a
few minutes, but then I fly out of a not-so-busy tower-controlled
airport (Sacramento Executive, KSAC).

I was taught never to assume that I would be able to just tell the
tower that I was ready to go. This step of finding a slot in the
system for me can't begin until I let the tower know that I'm ready.

So far, in the dozens of training flights - I've never been given a
take-off clearance right away - although most delays are brief.


>
> Thanks!
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Dave Butler]

John Clonts wrote:

<snip>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
<snip>

This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU, Raleigh-Durham, NC,
and I've never had that happen, and I've never informed tower that I was IFR.
Never heard anyone else do it either.

[Scott Draper]

<<or should they just know it already?>>

They should know it already.

I don't believe in volunteering a lot of unneeded information, because
that just craps up the airwaves.

[Allan9]

Be my guess that departing from the airport where the Approach Control is
located internal operating procedures contain provisions for a "silent
release' of departing IFR aircraft. If you are at an airport that is
colocated with approach control an individual release is required.
Al

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1127496435.982217@sj-nntpcache-3...
> John Clonts wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
> <snip>
>
> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.

[Bob Gardner]

I have heard enough "Oh...are you IFR?" out of Boeing Field that I consider
a little crap necessary at times.

Bob Gardner

"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> <<or should they just know it already?>>
>
> They should know it already.
>
> I don't believe in volunteering a lot of unneeded information, because
> that just craps up the airwaves.

[S Narayan]

"Scott Draper" > wrote in message
...
> <<or should they just know it already?>>
>
> They should know it already.
>
> I don't believe in volunteering a lot of unneeded information, because
> that just craps up the airwaves.

I don't see a big difference in the time taken from saying "Ready for
takeoff" to saying "Holding for IFR release".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> or should they just know it already?
>
> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
> clearance from ground control.
>

How much time elapsed between getting your clearance and taxiing for
departure?


>
> Tower assigned me runway heading (this
> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure.
>

Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?


>
> I had trouble getting a
> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>

How did you come to be on a 270 vector? Sugarland has only a north-south
runway and the tower assigned runway heading. Who then assigned a west
heading and for what purpose?


>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>

If some time elapsed between issuance of IFR clearance and taxiing for
departure ground control may have forgotten that you were an IFR departure
and prepared a new VFR strip for local control. Did you request taxi right
after getting your clearance? If not, did you tell ground you were IFR when
you called for taxi?


>
> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>

Are you sure the code was 0044? The National Beacon Code Allocation Plan
assigns codes 0100-0477 to terminal operations, it doesn't assign the block
0000-0077 to any purpose (which I find rather odd). Since your flight was
entirely within Houston Center you should have been assigned a code from one
of ZHU's internal departure blocks; 45xx, 46xx, or 47xx.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, you get your clearance from Ground/Clearance Delivery, but then
> there may be any number of delays between that time, and when you're
> ready to take off.
>
> You need to let the tower know when you're ready (by telling them that
> you're holding for IFR release). The tower then begins negotiating for
> a slot in the 'system' for your flight. Once they have a slot ready,
> they clear you to take off.
>

Why is it necessary to tell the tower you're holding for an IFR release?
Whether or not an IFR release is necessary is an internal ATC matter. If
the tower must call for IFR release it should do so right after taxi
clearance is issued to an aircraft that previously was issued an IFR
clearance.


>
> I was told this 'holding for release' should never take more than a
> few minutes, but then I fly out of a not-so-busy tower-controlled
> airport (Sacramento Executive, KSAC).
>
> I was taught never to assume that I would be able to just tell the
> tower that I was ready to go.
>

Were you taught why you should never assume that?


>
> This step of finding a slot in the
> system for me can't begin until I let the tower know that I'm ready.
>

That's ridiculous.

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/23/2005 11:34, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> or should they just know it already?
>>
>> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
>> clearance from ground control.
>>
>
> How much time elapsed between getting your clearance and taxiing for
> departure?
>
>
>>
>> Tower assigned me runway heading (this
>> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
>> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure.
>>
>
> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?

They do when you've requested flight following.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Scott Moore]

"Waiting for IFR release". It says it all.

John Clonts wrote On 09/23/05 09:01,:
> or should they just know it already?
>
> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
> clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>
> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>
> Thanks!
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?
>>
>
> They do when you've requested flight following.
>

Do IFR departures normally request flight following?

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/23/2005 11:43, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Well, you get your clearance from Ground/Clearance Delivery, but then
>> there may be any number of delays between that time, and when you're
>> ready to take off.
>>
>> You need to let the tower know when you're ready (by telling them that
>> you're holding for IFR release). The tower then begins negotiating for
>> a slot in the 'system' for your flight. Once they have a slot ready,
>> they clear you to take off.
>>
>
> Why is it necessary to tell the tower you're holding for an IFR release?
> Whether or not an IFR release is necessary is an internal ATC matter. If
> the tower must call for IFR release it should do so right after taxi
> clearance is issued to an aircraft that previously was issued an IFR
> clearance.

How long will it take the aircraft to go from requesting the clearance
(or taxi) and being ready to take off? The tower needs to negotiate a
slot in the system for your flight. To do that, it needs to know when
you're going to be ready to go.

Of course, this may be one of those 'local policy' issues?


>
>
>>
>> I was told this 'holding for release' should never take more than a
>> few minutes, but then I fly out of a not-so-busy tower-controlled
>> airport (Sacramento Executive, KSAC).
>>
>> I was taught never to assume that I would be able to just tell the
>> tower that I was ready to go.
>>
>
> Were you taught why you should never assume that?

Yes, as explained above.

>
>
>>
>> This step of finding a slot in the
>> system for me can't begin until I let the tower know that I'm ready.
>>
>
> That's ridiculous.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> How long will it take the aircraft to go from requesting the clearance
> (or taxi) and being ready to take off?
>

Depends how far it has to taxi. The controller will know from experience
and provide an appropriate estimate to the facility providing departure
control functions.


>
> The tower needs to negotiate a
> slot in the system for your flight. To do that, it needs to know when
> you're going to be ready to go.
>

The tower knows where you are and where you have to taxi to and how long it
takes to get there.


>
> Yes, as explained above.
>

Well, you were taught wrong.

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/23/2005 12:05, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> How long will it take the aircraft to go from requesting the clearance
>> (or taxi) and being ready to take off?
>>
>
> Depends how far it has to taxi. The controller will know from experience
> and provide an appropriate estimate to the facility providing departure
> control functions.

Included in this time as well are the run-up checks and the
navigation setup, chart organization, etc.

I don't see how the tower could guess when the plane will be ready
to depart.

>
>
>>
>> The tower needs to negotiate a
>> slot in the system for your flight. To do that, it needs to know when
>> you're going to be ready to go.
>>
>
> The tower knows where you are and where you have to taxi to and how long it
> takes to get there.
>
>
>>
>> Yes, as explained above.
>>
>
> Well, you were taught wrong.

ok, thanks.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/23/2005 11:51, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>>> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?
>>>
>>
>> They do when you've requested flight following.
>>
>
> Do IFR departures normally request flight following?
>
>

Either you're not following along, or you just want to argue.

Have a nice day.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> Included in this time as well are the run-up checks and the
> navigation setup, chart organization, etc.
>

Consider doing your navigation setup and chart organization prior to taxi.


>
> I don't see how the tower could guess when the plane will be ready
> to depart.
>

Well, they do it hundreds of times every day all over the US.

[Andrew Gideon]

S Narayan wrote:

> I don't see a big difference in the time taken from saying "Ready for
> takeoff" to saying "Holding for IFR release".

I usually say "ready to go, IFR". I also mention that I'm IFR when I
request my taxi instructions. I'd prefer an extra half-second of radio
time to the possibility of confusion.

KCDW modified their procedures a while back in a similar way. They no
longer provide the squawk code with the clearance information; it's
[almost] always "clearance on release". I asked once, and was told that
there was a problem with people taking off IFR and the tower not realizing
they were IFR. Holding back the squawk apparently blocks that.

*Why* (or "how") this occurred is a part of the back story that -
unfortunately - I was not told. I'm still curious, should anyone here
know.

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> Either you're not following along, or you just want to argue.
>

I don't think you're following along. We're talking about an IFR departure.
An IFR departure isn't going to request flight following. He doesn't need
to, he's going to get radar advisories automatically.

[KP]

"Scott Moore" > wrote in message
...
> "Waiting for IFR release". It says it all.

It gets the message across but for the hair-splitters out there it may not
be accurate.

You're actually waiting for takeoff clearance. You may or may not be
waiting for IFR release.

An IFR release is an internal ATC procedure between the tower and IFR
facility responsible for that airport.

The tower may need to call for each individual release. It may have already
called and gotten it while you were taxiing. It may have automatic
releases. It may operate one way during one part of the day and another way
during other times. It may normally operate one way all day but for reasons
of his own the departure controller shut off the flow.

A pilot really has no way to know which procedure is in effect or any real
reason to care.

When you say "N12345 is ready" the local controller will issue takeoff
clearance as soon as he's able.

If you say "N12345 is ready IFR" he'll know to look for the IFR strip (many
towers don't use strips for VFR) to ensure everything is copasetic before
issuing takeoff clearance. That includes getting a release if he needs one.

John Clonts wrote On 09/23/05 09:01,:
>> or should they just know it already?
>>
>> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
>> clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
>> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
>> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
>> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
>> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
>> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
>> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
>> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
>> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>>
>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>>
>> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
>> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
>> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
>> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
>> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>>
>> Thanks!
>> John Clonts
>> Temple, Texas
>> N7NZ
>>
>

[[email protected]]

For whats its worth when I contact tower I say

Ready for IFR departure.

The response has been anything from "Hold position waiting for your
release" to line up and hold waiting for your release"

Saying something different to VFR traffic helps and theres been not
complaints.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> KCDW modified their procedures a while back in a similar way. They no
> longer provide the squawk code with the clearance information; it's
> [almost] always "clearance on release". I asked once, and was told that
> there was a problem with people taking off IFR and the tower not realizing
> they were IFR. Holding back the squawk apparently blocks that.
>

I fail to see how not issuing a beacon code blocks someone from taking off
or helps the tower remember they're departing IFR.

[Matt Whiting]

Dave Butler wrote:
> John Clonts wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
> <snip>
>
> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.

Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

Matt

[Newps]

Dave Butler wrote:
> John Clonts wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
> <snip>
>
> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.


It's not necessary at a class C or B tower, those facilities are the IFR
facility for releasing departures. It is a nice thing to do at class d
towers as they have to get a release from the IFR facility.

[Matt Whiting]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 9/23/2005 11:34, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>>>
>>> or should they just know it already?
>>>
>>> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
>>> clearance from ground control.
>>>
>>
>> How much time elapsed between getting your clearance and taxiing for
>> departure?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Tower assigned me runway heading (this
>>> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
>>> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure.
>>>
>>
>> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?
>
>
> They do when you've requested flight following.

ELM routinely hands off VFR departures to departure control. You have
to specifically request not to have radar services if you don't want the
hand-off.

Matt

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> ELM routinely hands off VFR departures to departure control. You have to
> specifically request not to have radar services if you don't want the
> hand-off.
>

ELM has a TRSA. As in all TRSAs, departing aircraft are assumed to want
TRSA services unless the pilot states otherwise.

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:


>
> I usually say "ready to go, IFR". I also mention that I'm IFR when I
> request my taxi instructions. I'd prefer an extra half-second of radio
> time to the possibility of confusion.
>
> KCDW modified their procedures a while back in a similar way. They no
> longer provide the squawk code with the clearance information; it's
> [almost] always "clearance on release". I asked once, and was told that
> there was a problem with people taking off IFR and the tower not realizing
> they were IFR. Holding back the squawk apparently blocks that.

It doesn't, it helps the tower hide the fact they released an IFR
without a release, which is an operational error. When I worked at GFK
the vast majority of our IFR traffic was from UND and they almost always
used the small parallel runway, mixed in with all the VFR's. To prevent
an inadvertant release of an UND IFR aircraft we would not issue your
clearance until you were done with your runup. It worked for us because
every clearance was as filed.


>
> *Why* (or "how") this occurred is a part of the back story that -
> unfortunately - I was not told. I'm still curious, should anyone here
> know.
>
They had a deal, simple as that, just like one of our guys.

[Newps]

Matt Whiting wrote:


>
>
> Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
> of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

At a class B and C they would because every aircraft that doesn't stay
in the pattern gets a strip of some kind. At a class D tower a VFR
aircraft doesn't normally get a strip.

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:

>
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some
>> indication of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.
>
>
> At a class B and C they would because every aircraft that doesn't stay
> in the pattern gets a strip of some kind. At a class D tower a VFR
> aircraft doesn't normally get a strip.

Makes sense. I can't remember the last time I flew from a tower in
class D so I'm just not used to tower not knowing my flight plan type.

Matt

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:


> It doesn't, it helps the tower hide the fact they released an IFR
> without a release, which is an operational error.

<Laugh> Okay. Considering who developed this procedure, what you're writing
doesn't surprise me.

But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot who
could depart w/o a squawk. If the tower cleared me for t/o w/o giving me a
squawk, I'd ask. This forces the particular operator to know that it's an
IFR departure.

No?

- Andrew

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> or should they just know it already?
>>
>> I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
>> clearance from ground control.
>>
>
> How much time elapsed between getting your clearance and taxiing for departure?
>
>

About 2-3 minutes.

>>
>> Tower assigned me runway heading (this
>> was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
>> for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure.
>>
>
> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?
>

Have no idea about that, it's not a familiar airport to me.

>
>>
>> I had trouble getting a
>> word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
>> squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
>> believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
>> cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
>> said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
>> uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>>
>
> How did you come to be on a 270 vector? Sugarland has only a north-south runway and the tower assigned
> runway heading. Who then assigned a west heading and for what purpose?
>

Hmm, yes, I may have that sequence out of order. I was given the new squawk,
and sometime after that I was asked if I was VFR, but I can't remember if I was
given the vector before or after the VFR question.

>
>>
>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>>
>
> If some time elapsed between issuance of IFR clearance and taxiing for departure ground control may have
> forgotten that you were an IFR departure and prepared a new VFR strip for local control. Did you request
> taxi right after getting your clearance? If not, did you tell ground you were IFR when you called for taxi?
>
>
It was only 2-3 minutes, and I did not tell him I was IFR at taxi time. But it was
45 minutes later when I was finally #1 for departure.

>>
>> Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
>> squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
>> "local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
>> 0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
>> Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>>
>
> Are you sure the code was 0044? The National Beacon Code Allocation Plan assigns codes 0100-0477 to terminal
> operations, it doesn't assign the block 0000-0077 to any purpose (which I find rather odd). Since your
> flight was entirely within Houston Center you should have been assigned a code from one of ZHU's internal
> departure blocks; 45xx, 46xx, or 47xx.

Yes, I am sure about the 0044, I just checked where I had written it on my clipboard.
The original code I was given by ground control was 4553.

Thanks!
John

[John Clonts]

"Newps" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Dave Butler wrote:
>> John Clonts wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>>> cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU, Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that
>> happen, and I've never informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.
>
>
> It's not necessary at a class C or B tower, those facilities are the IFR facility for releasing departures.
> It is a nice thing to do at class d towers as they have to get a release from the IFR facility.

Ok, that makes sense! Although I now recall that the other time I had had
something similar happen (i.e. "Are you IFR"), it was departing from Austin
(class C). Oh, well...

Thanks!
John

[Scott Draper]

<<I have heard enough "Oh...are you IFR?" out of Boeing Field that I
consider a little crap necessary at times.>>

ATC will occasionally ask you things they want to know, but that isn't
necessarily a suggestion that you should include those things in all
further ATC communications.

[Scott Draper]

<<I don't see a big difference in the time taken from saying "Ready
for takeoff" to saying "Holding for IFR release". >>

Making something simple seem obscure. Clearance Delivery gave me my
clearance; all I need from tower is a clearance to takeoff. Tower
needs an "IFR Release" for me, but that's their problem, i.e.,
"Controller Stuff".

If saying that I was holding for an IFR Release had some value, seems
that the AIM would suggest the phraseology.

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>
>>It doesn't, it helps the tower hide the fact they released an IFR
>>without a release, which is an operational error.
>
>
> <Laugh> Okay. Considering who developed this procedure, what you're writing
> doesn't surprise me.
>
> But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot who
> could depart w/o a squawk. If the tower cleared me for t/o w/o giving me a
> squawk, I'd ask. This forces the particular operator to know that it's an
> IFR departure.
>
> No?

Not having a transponder code doesn't mean you aren't IFR. It's simply
a gimmick by the tower to try and prevent an operational error.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> About 2-3 minutes.
>

Then the episode appears to be a brain fart on the part of the ground
controller.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 23 Sep 2005 09:01:56 -0700, "John Clonts" > wrote:

>or should they just know it already?
>
>I was departing Sugarland (KSGR) yesterday, after having gotten my
>clearance from ground control. Tower assigned me runway heading (this
>was about 45 minutes later as there was MUCH traffic waiting in line
>for takeoffs) and handed me off to departure. I had trouble getting a
>word in edgewise, but when I eventually did, departure said "change
>squawk to 0044". Later a different controller (but same freq I
>believe) asked my if I was VFR???? I told him "Negative, N7NZ is
>cleared Industry departure then as filed, currently on 270 vector". He
>said, "roger, cleared direct IDU", and the rest of the flight was
>uneventful (and unambiguously IFR). This was all in VMC.
>
>Later I thought that maybe the tower didn't realize I was IFR when he
>cleared me for takeoff, and that fouled something up with departure.
>
>Or, is there another reason I would have immediately been given a new
>squawk code like that? I seem to remember that 0xxx squawks are
>"local" or something like that. Yet I believe I then kept that same
>0044 the entire remaining duration of the flight (through Houston
>Center and then Austin Approach to my destination 44TE).
>
>Thanks!
>John Clonts
>Temple, Texas
>N7NZ

You've "told the tower" when you call on the Ground or Clearance delivery
frequency and obtain your clearance (as in "Sugarland Ground, N12345 IFR to
Oshkosh; ready to taxi")

I've never bothered announcing it again when I switch to tower frequency,
nor have I ever heard anyone else doing that at a variety of airports in
different airspaces (KASH - class D; KBOS - class A; KMHT - class C; KBGR -
class C).

And yes, controllers at all facilities will sometimes forget that you're
IFR; or be uncertain as to your destination; etc. If that's a frequent
occurrence at the facilities you deal with, it would seem to me that a call
to that facilities QA officer would be in order.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> About 2-3 minutes.
>>
>
> Then the episode appears to be a brain fart on the part of the ground controller.

If so, what was it he did (or didn't do) incorrectly?

Thanks,
John

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> If so, what was it he did (or didn't do) incorrectly?
>

It appears he forgot that he had just issued you an IFR clearance and
treated you as a VFR departure.

[L. R. Du Broff]

Slightly off topic, but ...

Commuting for work between ORL (Orlando Executive, near Orlando
International) and CDW (near New York / Newark congested area), I have
had excessive delays, waiting for IFR release, and / or covering lots of
extra miles being vectored over several counties for separation, I
adopted a new strategy which worked really well for me.

Most of my departures were in good VMC weather, which doubled the
frustrations of delays on IFR departures. On these good-weather days, I
filed the IFR flight plan to begin at a VOR or intersection along my
intended route -- maybe 20 or 30 miles from the departure point. I would
make no mention of "IFR" to ground control or clearance delivery -- just
tell them I was northbound (substitute appropriate direction) at 3,500
(substitute appropriate VFR altitude). This generally got me going
quickly. As soon as I was out of the area that experience had taught me
was ripe with vectors, I contacted the appropriate ATC facility to
request my clearance.

Between not having to wait for IFR release, and avoiding lots of vectors,
I easily shaved 15 to 30 minutes from my weekly commute between home and
work.

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/24/2005 8:13 AM, Peter wrote:
> "L. R. Du Broff" > wrote
>
>>I would
>>make no mention of "IFR" to ground control or clearance delivery -- just
>>tell them I was northbound (substitute appropriate direction) at 3,500
>>(substitute appropriate VFR altitude). This generally got me going
>>quickly. As soon as I was out of the area that experience had taught me
>>was ripe with vectors, I contacted the appropriate ATC facility to
>>request my clearance.
>>
>>Between not having to wait for IFR release, and avoiding lots of vectors,
>>I easily shaved 15 to 30 minutes from my weekly commute between home and
>>work.
>
> In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?

Sure. You file a combined VFR/IFR flight plan. When they see the initial
fix of your IFR route beginning away from the departure area, they know
you're departing VFR (and that you intend to pick-up your IFR clearance
before you reach the initial fix).

> Here in the UK this is done all the time. But one isn't supposed to do
> it in e.g. France because *any* IFR requires an IFR flight plan, and
> an IFR clearance.
>
> The last bit should be OK because one can cancel IFR, AFAIK.

Yes, assuming you can legally fly VFR, you can cancel your IFR flight
plan at any time (unless you're in Class A, of course...)

>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Newps]

Peter wrote:

>
>
> In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?
> Here in the UK this is done all the time. But one isn't supposed to do
> it in e.g. France because *any* IFR requires an IFR flight plan, and
> an IFR clearance.
>
> The last bit should be OK because one can cancel IFR, AFAIK.

Europe's system is not flexible, we are.

[Milen Lazarov]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> I have heard enough "Oh...are you IFR?" out of Boeing Field that I consider
> a little crap necessary at times.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
I guess that's why usually at Paine Field they tell you "Advise ground
and tower that you're IFR" at the end of your clearence. And that's just
like other posters have suggested - a class D tower which hands you off
to Seattle Center.

[max]

At the aiport I fly out of (KPAO) after I readback my clearance to
ground they always tell me to "advise the tower you're IFR". So there's
no question about this issue there. I'm not sure if this has to do with
how busy our airport always is, or how busy the departure airspace is.
I'd guess both. I'll make a not to ask the controller next time I visit
the tower.

Max

[Russ MacDonald]

>>
>> Do they normally send VFR aircraft to departure?
>
> They do when you've requested flight following.

> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Sacramento, CA


Here in Dallas, they never send any VFR aircraft to 'Departure'. To my
knowledge, the term 'Departure' is only used with IFR aircraft. For a VFR
departure requesting 'flight following', they always tell them to contact
'Approach Control'.

Russ

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:

>> But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot
>> who could depart w/o a squawk.Â*Â*IfÂ*theÂ*towerÂ*clearedÂ*meÂ*forÂ*t/oÂ*w/o
>> givingÂ*meÂ*a squawk, I'd ask.Â*Â*ThisÂ*forcesÂ*theÂ*particularÂ*operatorÂ*t oÂ*know
>> thatÂ*it'sÂ*an IFR departure.
>>
>> No?
>
> Not having a transponder code doesn't mean you aren't IFR.Â*Â*

Of course not.

> It'sÂ*simply
> a gimmick by the tower to try and prevent an operational error.

I'm not likely to forget I'm IFR, even of the tower operator does (or hasn't
been informed, perhaps). I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a squawk.

What tower is apparently avoiding is an operation error, yes. They're doing
so by using my reluctance to depart IFR w/o a squawk. By forcing me to ask
for a squawk if it's not given, they're effectively having me remind the
tower operator that I'm IFR in the case where he or she has forgotten.

At least, that's my understanding of how this "gimmick" is working. It
doesn't make sense?

- Andrew

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>>But I suspect that it does help, in that it would be the odd IFR pilot
>>>who could depart w/o a squawk. If the tower cleared me for t/o w/o
>>>giving me a squawk, I'd ask. This forces the particular operator to know
>>>that it's an IFR departure.
>>>
>>>No?
>>
>>Not having a transponder code doesn't mean you aren't IFR.
>
>
> Of course not.
>
>
>>It's simply
>>a gimmick by the tower to try and prevent an operational error.
>
>
> I'm not likely to forget I'm IFR, even of the tower operator does (or hasn't
> been informed, perhaps). I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a squawk.

Nobody's worried about you forgetting you're IFR, all this is about a
VFR tower launching an IFR aircraft into the system and the pilot is the
only one who knows he's IFR. That's bad.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> I'm not likely to forget I'm IFR, even of the tower operator does (or
> hasn't
> been informed, perhaps). I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a
> squawk.
>
> What tower is apparently avoiding is an operation error, yes. They're
> doing
> so by using my reluctance to depart IFR w/o a squawk. By forcing me to
> ask
> for a squawk if it's not given, they're effectively having me remind the
> tower operator that I'm IFR in the case where he or she has forgotten.
>
> At least, that's my understanding of how this "gimmick" is working. It
> doesn't make sense?
>

Only if all IFR pilots refuse to launch without a discrete beacon code. Not
all will do that.

[max]

Where I fly, it's standard practice to remind the tower controller on
your "ready" call that you're IFR. It's standard because after I finish
the correct readback of my IFR clearance from the ground controller, he
always responds with "readback correct, advise the tower you're IFR".

It's been this way for years at this class D airport (KPAO).

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 25 Sep 2005 00:44:20 -0700, "max" > wrote:

>Where I fly, it's standard practice to remind the tower controller on
>your "ready" call that you're IFR. It's standard because after I finish
>the correct readback of my IFR clearance from the ground controller, he
>always responds with "readback correct, advise the tower you're IFR".
>
>It's been this way for years at this class D airport (KPAO).

That's different, in my opinion, because you are responding to a specific
instruction from ATC. If I were to receive that instruction from ground
(or clearance delivery), I would certainly follow it, too.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Chris]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?
>> Here in the UK this is done all the time. But one isn't supposed to do
>> it in e.g. France because *any* IFR requires an IFR flight plan, and
>> an IFR clearance.
>>
>> The last bit should be OK because one can cancel IFR, AFAIK.
>
> Europe's system is not flexible, we are.

Like the US you can file a pop up IFR flight plan if needed, for example if
the weather goes a bit pearshaped and you want to fly in controlled
airspace.

The UK has class A going down to the surface and a special VFR clearance is
available in that airspace. Other class A not at the surface is IFR only
like everywhere else.

Interestingly from FL245 our airspace goes to Class B

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:

>> I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a
>> squawk.
>
> Nobody's worried about you forgetting you're IFR, all this is about a
> VFR tower launching an IFR aircraft into the system and the pilot is the
> only one who knows he's IFR. That's bad.

Right. And in another part of my note, I wrote that the tower is attempting
to avoid this by exploiting the low probability of the pilot either
forgetting he/she is IFR or departing w/o a squawk.

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> What I meant was can
> one say depart VFR (no flight plan) and upon seeing cloud ahead call
> up and ask for an IFR clearance. One needs to have an IR of course.
> How easy is this sort of thing to do in reality?
>

Yes, one can get a pop-up IFR clearance. How easy it is depends on how busy
the controller is.


>
> Here in the UK, we can do it (in Class G) without any radio contact,
> which I believe is unique in Europe.
>

That can be done in the US where there's enough Class G airspace.

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/25/2005 22:12, Peter wrote:

> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>> In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?
>>
>>Sure. You file a combined VFR/IFR flight plan. When they see the initial
>>fix of your IFR route beginning away from the departure area, they know
>>you're departing VFR (and that you intend to pick-up your IFR clearance
>>before you reach the initial fix).
>
> OK, sorry, I forgot about the Y/Z flight plans. What I meant was can
> one say depart VFR (no flight plan) and upon seeing cloud ahead call
> up and ask for an IFR clearance. One needs to have an IR of course.
> How easy is this sort of thing to do in reality?

As Steven said, they're called Pop-up IFR clearances.

>
> Here in the UK, we can do it (in Class G) without any radio contact,
> which I believe is unique in Europe.

In the U.S., you are only required to have an IFR clearance and flight
plan when operating within controlled airspace. So, you can convert
your flight from VFR to IFR while in class G airspace without any
ATC intervention.

However, given that your flight is not being monitored by ATC, there
is no one to provide separation between you and other planes who may
have pilots doing the same thing. You would have to decide whether
you're willing to take that kind of a risk.

Incidentally, without the FARs in front of me at the moment, I know
there is one FAR that is similar to the 'Basic Rule' of automotive
regulations: If you do anything stupid or with undue risk, you can
get hammered.

>
> Believe it or not I have passed my FAA IR written but the texts don't
> seem to address practical points like this.

Yes, understanding the FARs is only the first step. Applying them
appropriately is where the wisdom comes in ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[Dave Butler]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:

>> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
>> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
>> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.
>
>
> Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
> of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it and
can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have never heard
of it.

[Mark Hansen]

On 9/26/2005 12:18, Dave Butler wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
>>> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
>>> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.
>>
>>
>> Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
>> of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.
>
> Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it and
> can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have never heard
> of it.

Unfortunately, at least in my case, the instructor didn't present it
as a regional thing, so I received my rating with the belief that it's
a rule of IFR flight.

Of course, now that I understand there are issues like this, I can
look out for them, and not be too surprised when I'm hit with one ;-)

I never believed that getting my rating at one airport would prepare
me for flight at any airport. But it would be nice to have been told
these are local policies and not "rules" (note: I'm not referring to
FARs here...).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[KP]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1127762088.858279@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>> This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
>>> Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
>>> informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.
>>
>>
>> Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
>> of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.
>
> Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it
> and can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have
> never heard of it.

Not regional, more like local.

The tower does have an indication of flight plan type. If it's IFR there is
a strip with the clearance and somebody (probably Ground) issued it to the
aircraft.

But if 99.9% of the traffic a local controller handles is VFR spamcans then
99.9% of the time when a spamcan calls for takeoff the response is going to
be "Cleared for takeoff." Usually without even looking for a strip since
many towers don't make strips for VFR.

Make it busy so the controller is looking out the windows trying to figure
out where he's going to put the airplanes instead of looking at or for a
strip (which isn't there 99.9% of the time anyway), throw in a departure
control who won't release aircraft in advance so the release can't be
obtained before the aircraft calls tower, then absent some sort of reminder,
the odds of launching that 0.01% IFR aircraft without a release go way up.

The reminder might be not issuing a squawk until released, asking local
aircraft to include "IFR" in their request for takeoff, the CD/FD or ground
controller bouncing the strip off the local controller's head, or something
else. But after one or two IFRs slip the surly bonds without a release,
some sort of procedural reminder will be put in place.

Some folks may think relying on an individual controller's memory and
situational awareness should be enough but it's not, never has been, never
will be :-/

[Roy Smith]

"KP" <nospam@please> wrote:
> But if 99.9% of the traffic a local controller handles is VFR spamcans then
> 99.9% of the time when a spamcan calls for takeoff the response is going to
> be "Cleared for takeoff." Usually without even looking for a strip since
> many towers don't make strips for VFR.

I fly out of HPN, a busy Class D with everything from scheduled airlines to
two flight schools doing primary training. CD generally tells spam cans to
"advise tower and ground you're IFR".

Should the tower already know I'm IFR without my having to remind them? Of
course they should. But it doesn't cost me anything to play along with
their request, so why make a big deal out of it?

[Matt Whiting]

Roy Smith wrote:
> "KP" <nospam@please> wrote:
>
>>But if 99.9% of the traffic a local controller handles is VFR spamcans then
>>99.9% of the time when a spamcan calls for takeoff the response is going to
>>be "Cleared for takeoff." Usually without even looking for a strip since
>>many towers don't make strips for VFR.
>
>
> I fly out of HPN, a busy Class D with everything from scheduled airlines to
> two flight schools doing primary training. CD generally tells spam cans to
> "advise tower and ground you're IFR".
>
> Should the tower already know I'm IFR without my having to remind them? Of
> course they should. But it doesn't cost me anything to play along with
> their request, so why make a big deal out of it?

I think one of the controllers among us said that towers in class D may,
in fact, not know your flight plan type.

Matt

[Stan Gosnell]

"John Clonts" > wrote in
:

> Ok, that makes sense! Although I now recall that the other time I had
> had something similar happen (i.e. "Are you IFR"), it was departing
> from Austin (class C). Oh, well...

And to confuse things more, SGR used to be Class G. It stunned me the
first time I called them up (by phone) to check on procedures when they
first opened the tower, and they told me the airspace was still Class G.
It stayed that way for a few years, and then it went to Class D.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[Dave Butler]

Roy Smith wrote:

> I fly out of HPN, a busy Class D with everything from scheduled airlines to
> two flight schools doing primary training. CD generally tells spam cans to
> "advise tower and ground you're IFR".
>
> Should the tower already know I'm IFR without my having to remind them? Of
> course they should. But it doesn't cost me anything to play along with
> their request, so why make a big deal out of it?

Complying with an instruction to "notify tower..." is one thing. Being expected
to do so in the absence of an instruction is another. OTOH, there's that pesky
AIM reference I hadn't been aware of until this thread.

Dave

[John Clonts]

>Complying with an instruction to "notify tower..." is one thing. Being expected
>to do so in the absence of an instruction is another. OTOH, there's that pesky
>AIM reference I hadn't been aware of until this thread.

Hello Dave,

Sorry, I can't seem to find that "pesky AIM Reference" in the thread,
could you be more specific?
--
Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Chris]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1127825023.200293@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> I fly out of HPN, a busy Class D with everything from scheduled airlines
>> to two flight schools doing primary training. CD generally tells spam
>> cans to "advise tower and ground you're IFR".
>>
>> Should the tower already know I'm IFR without my having to remind them?
>> Of course they should. But it doesn't cost me anything to play along
>> with their request, so why make a big deal out of it?
>
> Complying with an instruction to "notify tower..." is one thing. Being
> expected to do so in the absence of an instruction is another. OTOH,
> there's that pesky AIM reference I hadn't been aware of until this thread.

If it helps to keeps things running smoothly then I am all for telling the
tower. After is it not the case that communicate is one of the three
essentials in flying after aviate and navigate.

Its not as though is going to cost anything to say it.

[Dave Butler]

John Clonts wrote:
>>Complying with an instruction to "notify tower..." is one thing. Being expected
>>to do so in the absence of an instruction is another. OTOH, there's that pesky
>>AIM reference I hadn't been aware of until this thread.
>
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> Sorry, I can't seem to find that "pesky AIM Reference" in the thread,
> could you be more specific?

Oops, I think I mixed up this thread with another one, the one about calling for
your clearance before engine start. Sorry. Never mind.

Dave

[Dave Butler]

Chris wrote:

> If it helps to keeps things running smoothly then I am all for telling the
> tower. After is it not the case that communicate is one of the three
> essentials in flying after aviate and navigate.
>
> Its not as though is going to cost anything to say it.

If it helps to keeps things running smoothly then it should be a published best
practice, rather than something I find out about on r.a.i.

Having listened in on and participated in a lot of IFR departures where there
was no announcement of intent to commit IFR, I am reluctant to concede that it
helps to keeps things running smoothly.

In the absence of a specific instruction like "inform tower..." I'd put it in
the category of nonstandard radio procedure, along with "any traffic please
advise" and "with you".

[Alan Gerber]

Roy Smith > wrote:
> Should the tower already know I'm IFR without my having to remind them? Of
> course they should. But it doesn't cost me anything to play along with
> their request, so why make a big deal out of it?

Exactly!

I've gotten into the habit of telling ground that I'm VFR on my initial
callup. It helps them choose a departure runway (CDW usually runs
simultaneous ops on two intersecting runways), and it doesn't really cost
anything to add, say, "VFR Westbound" to my initial callup.

After a couple of flights where the tower asked me my direction of flight,
after I had already told ground, I realized that communication between ground
and tower isn't all it should be. Now I add those two words to my callup
to the tower, too, unless the frequency is really busy.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Roy Smith]

Alan Gerber > wrote:
> After a couple of flights where the tower asked me my direction of flight,
> after I had already told ground, I realized that communication between ground
> and tower isn't all it should be. Now I add those two words to my callup
> to the tower, too, unless the frequency is really busy.

Ground and tower have different reasons to wanting to know where you're
going. Ground wants to know which runway to send you to (especially if
your request is for closed traffic). The tower wants to know which way
you're going to turn after departure, so he can plan his traffic flow and
perhaps give you departure instructions.

[Alan Gerber]

Roy Smith > wrote:
> Ground and tower have different reasons to wanting to know where you're
> going. Ground wants to know which runway to send you to (especially if
> your request is for closed traffic). The tower wants to know which way
> you're going to turn after departure, so he can plan his traffic flow and
> perhaps give you departure instructions.

Exactly. I'm not too sure why they don't coordinate better, but it's no
big deal to tell both of them.

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Robert M. Gary]

Rather than say "tower, cessna 1243 ready for take off runway X", I say
"tower, cessna 1234 ready for release runway X". I was cleared for take
off in Santa Barbara in front of a 737 on 1/2 final once because the
tower assumed I had been assigned to the VFR/GA runway. I've also
taken off, and then quickly been asked to maintain VFR because the
controller forget to secure my release.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> It's not necessary at a class C or B tower, those facilities are the IFR
> facility for releasing departures. It is a nice thing to do at class d
> towers as they have to get a release from the IFR facility.

I would believe that myself if I hadn't had several cases where the
tower controller forgot and didn't secure my IFR release from class C
airports.

-Robert

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I would believe that myself if I hadn't had several cases where the
> tower controller forgot and didn't secure my IFR release from class C
> airports.
>

The tower controller forgot to secure your release from himself?

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>It's not necessary at a class C or B tower, those facilities are the IFR
>>facility for releasing departures. It is a nice thing to do at class d
>>towers as they have to get a release from the IFR facility.
>
>
> I would believe that myself if I hadn't had several cases where the
> tower controller forgot and didn't secure my IFR release from class C
> airports.

The tower controller has automatic releases at class C airports.

[Robert M. Gary]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > I would believe that myself if I hadn't had several cases where the
> > tower controller forgot and didn't secure my IFR release from class C
> > airports.
> >
>
> The tower controller forgot to secure your release from himself?

Actually, thinking about it more, getting cleared to take off with a
737 coming over the fence was at class C. I think the forgotten release
may have been at a class D.