S: Looking for suggestions: need time for pre-buy

[[email protected]]

Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted
a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.

What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.
Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
negotiation.

Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike

[OtisWinslow]

Take a mechanic and your checkbook and go look at the plane.


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted
> a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.
>
> What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
> amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
> results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.
> Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
> negotiation.
>
> Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike
>

[Doug]

If it is a fairly simple plane, you can do a prebuy on the paint,
upholstry, avionics, fly the plane and determine it's handling
charactistics. Now all that is left is corrosion, AD's and a
compression test and cut open an oil filter. A mechanic should be able
to do the compression test and oil filter in an hour or two. AD's vary,
but those should be researched by a mechanic that has access to a
database. Also look at the log books and check to see if it has been in
annual and the AD's have been complied with. In short, with a mechanic,
you should be able to do a prebuy in one afternoon. It doesn't have to
be a big production.

[Newps]

All three planes I have bought did not have a prebuy. Two of the three
I actually saw prior to buying. There's a lot of deals out there if you
know where to look and have the time.



wrote:
> Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted
> a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.
>
> What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
> amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
> results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.
> Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
> negotiation.
>
> Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike
>

[[email protected]]

Please assume the A/C is some distance away, I can't get down there,
and I have to arrange for a mechanic where the a/c is to do a pre-buy.
So you see, I need to provide the seller some incentive NOT to sell the
a/c until the pre-buy is done.

It's as if the rules are changing; other folks seem to be waiving the
pre-buy and not bothering to negotiate - Mike

[[email protected]]

NEWPS: would you please drop me an e-mail? thanks - Mike

[Steve Foley]

IMHO, the price negotiations shold take place before the pre-buy. If
something previously unknown is discovered during the pre-buy, you can
either re-negotiate or walk, your choice.

The mechanic I work with has made many trips to look at planes for people.
It actually works out well as he's also a CFI. In one case, a friend
purchased a plane in Texas. They both flew commerically form Mass to Texas,
looked over the plane, and flew back in it. One reason he's willing to do
this is because he knows he's getting future work.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted
> a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.
>
> What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
> amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
> results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.
> Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
> negotiation.
>
> Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike
>

[three-eight-hotel]

I'm probably more paranoid than most, but I'm not sure I would even
pull the trigger on a plane without a prepurchase inspection from a
"reputable" mechanic of my choosing??? As an owner now, I can
certainly understand the reluctance in allowing "anyone" to start
pulling off inspection plates, etc. But, if I were to do some research
and felt comfortable with the shop that was going to perform the
inspection, I would probably allow it.

I had to pull teeth to get the previous owner (business) to allow me to
have my mechanic perform the inspection, especially since it was
off-site, but they reluctantly agreed and all turned out well, with the
exception that the prop was not pitched appropriately. We agreed to
split the costs of the prop adjustment, based on the price we
negotiated (ahead of time).

An interesting thing that was missed in the pre-purchase was, the
windshield was installed incorrectly and wasn't seated properly...
This got caught at my first annual and just about killed me! a $2,000+
annual was not something I was immediately prepared for!

To me, the amount of money I was about to dump into an airplane was a
small fortune! The windshield turned out to be the last of the major
issues I have had, besides some avionics related problems (knock on
wood). I couldn't imagine not doing a thorough pre-purchase inspection
and taking a risk on what that first annual might cost me!

I was fortunate enough to be fairly local to where I bought my plane,
so long distance transactions definitely present a problem. I still
think I would research mechanics in the vicinity of the plane and get
someone to represent "me", rather than the seller. After all, the
"buyer", typically pays the pre-purchase cost (any issues obviously
require negotiation as to how to proceed). Also, it's valuable and
free information to the seller, if another mechanic catches anything
significant in the pre-purchase that the seller was un-aware of.

That's just my two cents...

Best Regards,
Todd

[Michael Horowitz]

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote:

Todd - one resource is the local EAA chapter. As a member, I have no
compunction in calling the distan EAA chapter and asking them to
recommend an A&P to do an inspection. - Mike


>
>I was fortunate enough to be fairly local to where I bought my plane,
>so long distance transactions definitely present a problem. I still
>think I would research mechanics in the vicinity of the plane and get
>someone to represent "me", rather than the seller. After all, the
>"buyer", typically pays the pre-purchase cost (any issues obviously
>require negotiation as to how to proceed). Also, it's valuable and
>free information to the seller, if another mechanic catches anything
>significant in the pre-purchase that the seller was un-aware of.
>
>That's just my two cents...
>
>Best Regards,
>Todd

[three-eight-hotel]

Good point... Great idea!!!

I guess I was more addressing the fact that I would require a
pre-purchase, and not necessarily answering the basic question of
whether or not to give the seller a "deposit".

I recall some discussions about setting up an escrow account for these
types of transactions... I'm reluctant to hand people money, if I have
no way of guaranteeing I can get it back!

I had one deal, when shopping for my plane that went south, after days
of negotiations. I showed up at the airport to start the inspection
process with my instructor (as I didn't know much about what to look
for at that point), and he decided out of the blue that he wanted to
bump the price back up to what it was in the early negotiations... Had
I given him a deposit at some point, I'm not sure this guy would have
done "the right thing" and given it back. It was a really shady deal,
and I'm sooooo glad it didn't work out!

Best of luck to you! I hope you find the right plane! You'll
definitely know, when it happens!!!

Todd

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
> amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
> results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.

That worked for me and my broker when I sold the Maule. We got $2,000 up front.
Both the buyer and I signed a contract saying he would buy and I would sell for
a given price. The contract stated that I would deliver the aircraft to a shop
of his choosing for the inspection and he could back out if he didn't like the
results of the prebuy.

> Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
> negotiation.

Right. He tried to "negotiate" after the inspection. I told him I'd be happy to
come get the plane if he didn't want it (I also registered an opinion on his
mechanic's ancestry and eye color when he claimed it needed all new control cables).

He tried a few other tricks that I'm sure you wouldn't do, but he bought the plane.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[George Patterson]

three-eight-hotel wrote:

> I recall some discussions about setting up an escrow account for these
> types of transactions... I'm reluctant to hand people money, if I have
> no way of guaranteeing I can get it back!

Escrow services are a great idea.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Michael Horowitz]

So you took a risk that if he wasn't really serious, he could find
some minor problem with the pre-buy results and bail on the deal,
leaving you with the cost to deliver and your time, including any
period of time that you were holding the a/c until the pre-buy was
arranged.

- Mike


George Patterson > wrote:

.. The contract stated that I would deliver the aircraft to a shop
>of his choosing for the inspection and he could back out if he didn't like the
>results of the prebuy.
>

[George Patterson]

Michael Horowitz wrote:
> So you took a risk that if he wasn't really serious, he could find
> some minor problem with the pre-buy results and bail on the deal,
> leaving you with the cost to deliver and your time, including any
> period of time that you were holding the a/c until the pre-buy was
> arranged.

Yes. Actually, I was sort of hoping he would cancel. We got two or three more
calls after that, including one from Alaska. On the other hand, "a bird in the
bush ...."

And you have to admit that a 2 grand deposit is a pretty good indication that
the guy was serious.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Michael Horowitz]

Yup, that's a fair indication :) - Mike


George Patterson > wrote:

>Michael Horowitz wrote:
>> So you took a risk that if he wasn't really serious, he could find
>> some minor problem with the pre-buy results and bail on the deal,
>> leaving you with the cost to deliver and your time, including any
>> period of time that you were holding the a/c until the pre-buy was
>> arranged.
>
>Yes. Actually, I was sort of hoping he would cancel. We got two or three more
>calls after that, including one from Alaska. On the other hand, "a bird in the
>bush ...."
>
>And you have to admit that a 2 grand deposit is a pretty good indication that
>the guy was serious.
>
>George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[John Doe]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Well, I lost out on a chance to purchase a nice plane because I wanted
> a pre-buy and someone else just wrote out a check unseen.
>
> What do you think of this approach: Offer the seller a reasonable
> amount to hold the aircraft until a pre-buy can be arranged. If the
> results of the pre-buy indicate major problems, money is refunded.
> Unfortunately, this approach does not take into account any price
> negotiation.
>
> Anyone have a preferred approach they could share? - Mike
>

Settle on a price
Give him a deposit to hold it
Everyone sign a contract saying exactly what both parties expect
Get the plane in the shop for an inspection
Insist any major issues found in the inspection be fixed by the seller.

Just my 2 cents

[George Patterson]

John Doe wrote:

> Settle on a price
> Give him a deposit to hold it
> Everyone sign a contract saying exactly what both parties expect
> Get the plane in the shop for an inspection
> Insist any major issues found in the inspection be fixed by the seller.

You forgot a few steps.

6. Argue over whether "major issue" is major.
7. Argue over whether price takes condition into account.
8. Watch seller sell plane to someone else.

You are welcome to try to get the price adjusted due to things your mechanic
found that you think are major, but the buyer is in no position to "insist" on
anything other than his deposit back if he isn't happy with the inspection results.

The buyer of my Maule claimed his mechanic found that the plane needed $18,000
worth of work. I pointed out that the purchase price was $22,000 below book, so
he was getting quite a deal.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

[Andrew Gideon]

George Patterson wrote:

> John Doe wrote:
>
>> Settle on a price
>> Give him a deposit to hold it
>> Everyone sign a contract saying exactly what both parties expect
>> Get the plane in the shop for an inspection
>> Insist any major issues found in the inspection be fixed by the seller.
>
> You forgot a few steps.
>
> 6. Argue over whether "major issue" is major.

What my club did for our last plane purchase was define a dollar amount as
the dividing line between "major" and "minor". Of course, the seller could
have disagreed about an amount.

> 7. Argue over whether price takes condition into account.

All "conditions" were discussed ahead of the pre-buy, leaving anything else
as not "taken into account".

A consideration is that both parties *want* the transaction to happen. Of
course, there's plenty of room for "fatal" disagreement. But that's a
scenario that both parties would consider unfortunate.

- Andrew