Folding wing for Ercoupes?

[Montblack]

Re: Fix the high cost [Was:] High Cost of Sportplanes
"Any mass produced successful sport aircraft today ought to have
folding wings, whether it's trailered or if it goes in a community
hanger. There is a folding wing mod for the venerable Ercoupe (it's
STC'd or their equivalent in Canada, I'm not sure here) and five or six
of them will fit in the hangar footprint of a Skylane."


Some Ercoupes have (STC'd) folding wings?

http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-integ_bryan.html
(Saw this, for the first time, while hunting in Google)


Montblack

[NW_PILOT]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> Re: Fix the high cost [Was:] High Cost of Sportplanes
> "Any mass produced successful sport aircraft today ought to have
> folding wings, whether it's trailered or if it goes in a community
> hanger. There is a folding wing mod for the venerable Ercoupe (it's
> STC'd or their equivalent in Canada, I'm not sure here) and five or six
> of them will fit in the hangar footprint of a Skylane."
>
>
> Some Ercoupes have (STC'd) folding wings?
>
> http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-integ_bryan.html
> (Saw this, for the first time, while hunting in Google)
>
>
> Montblack

And!!!

Bryan died in the crash of his Roadable III in 1974. It is reported that the
cause of the crash was the failure of a wing to lock securely in the
extended position.

[Ernest Christley]

Montblack wrote:
> Re: Fix the high cost [Was:] High Cost of Sportplanes
> "Any mass produced successful sport aircraft today ought to have
> folding wings, whether it's trailered or if it goes in a community
> hanger. There is a folding wing mod for the venerable Ercoupe (it's
> STC'd or their equivalent in Canada, I'm not sure here) and five or six
> of them will fit in the hangar footprint of a Skylane."
>
>
> Some Ercoupes have (STC'd) folding wings?
>
> http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-integ_bryan.html
> (Saw this, for the first time, while hunting in Google)
>
>
> Montblack

I'm building a Dyke Delta. It has foldable wings. I can testify that
foldable wings will NOT contribute to an affordable airplane.

I spent MONTHS working on all the fittings and the exactness required is
astronomically even by aviation standards.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Bret Ludwig]

Ernest Christley wrote:
> Montblack wrote:
> > Re: Fix the high cost [Was:] High Cost of Sportplanes
> > "Any mass produced successful sport aircraft today ought to have
> > folding wings, whether it's trailered or if it goes in a community
> > hanger. There is a folding wing mod for the venerable Ercoupe (it's
> > STC'd or their equivalent in Canada, I'm not sure here) and five or six
> > of them will fit in the hangar footprint of a Skylane."
> >
> >
> > Some Ercoupes have (STC'd) folding wings?
> >
> > http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-integ_bryan.html
> > (Saw this, for the first time, while hunting in Google)
> >
> >
> > Montblack
>
> I'm building a Dyke Delta. It has foldable wings. I can testify that
> foldable wings will NOT contribute to an affordable airplane.


In a production design, it will. It will add build labor, weight, and
manufacturing time but it will cut hangarage costs dramatically. Figure
a given amount of floor space can hold three times the airplanes,
minimum, if the wings fold.

It will also make interchangeable wings-a long set and a short
set-much more feasible. You start with one, buy the other later: in a
rental situation you could buy just a couple of extra sets for a good
sized fleet.
>
> I spent MONTHS working on all the fittings and the exactness required is
> astronomically even by aviation standards.
>
> --
> This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
> instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
> mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
> decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Ernest Christley]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
>>I'm building a Dyke Delta. It has foldable wings. I can testify that
>>foldable wings will NOT contribute to an affordable airplane.
>
>
>
> In a production design, it will. It will add build labor, weight, and
> manufacturing time but it will cut hangarage costs dramatically. Figure
> a given amount of floor space can hold three times the airplanes,
> minimum, if the wings fold.
>

Build one. Then you can tell us how much money it will save in a
production aircraft.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[George Patterson]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

> In a production design, it will. It will add build labor, weight, and
> manufacturing time but it will cut hangarage costs dramatically. Figure
> a given amount of floor space can hold three times the airplanes,
> minimum, if the wings fold.

Not in T-hangars, and they're the most common ones around here. I've seen
someone get two Champs in a single T-hangar by removing the wings of one of
them, but it wouldn't work with a plane the size of a 172.

> It will also make interchangeable wings-a long set and a short
> set-much more feasible.

I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by removing
three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than that. Of
course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and flaps
linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote
>
> > I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by
> removing
> > three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than that.
Of
> > course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and flaps
> > linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.
>
> Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the right
> design features.
>
> I have read about some planes, (in the case I am thinking of, sailplanes)
> that have the linkages mate in such a way that no tools are even needed.
> Anyone know of what I am remembering?
> --
> Jim in NC
>

Kitfox does it.

[Morgans]

"George Patterson" > wrote

> I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by
removing
> three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than that. Of
> course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and flaps
> linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.

Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the right
design features.

I have read about some planes, (in the case I am thinking of, sailplanes)
that have the linkages mate in such a way that no tools are even needed.
Anyone know of what I am remembering?
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote
>
>> I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by
> removing
>> three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than that. Of
>> course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and flaps
>> linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.
>
> Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the right
> design features.
>
Flaps? flaps? Ercoupes ain't got no flaps.

[Andre]

A few years back I was looking into the Valkyre. They were going to use
carbon fibre wings with linkages between the wing and the body so that all
you had to do was slide the wing into position and lock it. Two min job per
wing.

Neat design, too bad they spent so much time trying to perfect the design
that they went out of business.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote
>
> > I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by
> removing
> > three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than that.
Of
> > course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and flaps
> > linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.
>
> Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the right
> design features.
>
> I have read about some planes, (in the case I am thinking of, sailplanes)
> that have the linkages mate in such a way that no tools are even needed.
> Anyone know of what I am remembering?
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Bill Daniels]

Glider guys do this all the time with 50 foot (15meter) or larger wings -
sometimes just one man assembly in less than 10 minutes. The newest
sailplanes have automatic control hookups and are very easy to assemble.
They are so easy to assemble that most pilots leave their gliders in
trailers at the airport and assemble them each time they fly.

Bill Daniels

"Andre" > wrote in message
news:434670fc$1@newshark...
> A few years back I was looking into the Valkyre. They were going to use
> carbon fibre wings with linkages between the wing and the body so that all
> you had to do was slide the wing into position and lock it. Two min job
per
> wing.
>
> Neat design, too bad they spent so much time trying to perfect the design
> that they went out of business.
>
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "George Patterson" > wrote
> >
> > > I don't see how. You can pull a wing off a Cessna 152, 172, etc. by
> > removing
> > > three bolts. With a Maule, it's four. Can't get much simpler than
that.
> Of
> > > course, you still need to mess around with the aileron cables and
flaps
> > > linkages, but you'd have to do that with a folding design too.
> >
> > Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the
right
> > design features.
> >
> > I have read about some planes, (in the case I am thinking of,
sailplanes)
> > that have the linkages mate in such a way that no tools are even needed.
> > Anyone know of what I am remembering?
> > --
> > Jim in NC
> >
>
>

[Rich S.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> Messing around with aileron and flap cables is not a given, with the right
> design features.
>
> I have read about some planes, (in the case I am thinking of, sailplanes)
> that have the linkages mate in such a way that no tools are even needed.
> Anyone know of what I am remembering?
> --

The two aileron cables are connected to a "Swash plate" located at the wing
joint. Another matching swash plate is mounted in the wing with cables
continuing to the aileron bell crank.

When the wing is in place, the two swash plates are in contact. Which ever
way the inner plate moves, the outer plate must follow.

---------------||----------------
||
---------------||----------------

Rich S.

[Morgans]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote

> Flaps? flaps? Ercoupes ain't got no flaps.

<Chuckle> Perhaps I should look at the title of the thread, once in a
while. I forgot all of this folding wing stuff was in reference to
Ercoupes. I don't know why you would want to take a good certified plan,
and chop it up to make the wing fold. Not much to be gained, here.

The poster's intent was talking about a new sLSA design, I thought. I don't
know anymore. What day is it? I'm confused! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Rich S." > wrote

> The two aileron cables are connected to a "Swash plate" located at the
wing
> joint. Another matching swash plate is mounted in the wing with cables
> continuing to the aileron bell crank.
>
> When the wing is in place, the two swash plates are in contact. Which ever
> way the inner plate moves, the outer plate must follow.
>
> ---------------||----------------
> ||
> ---------------||----------------

I thought that is how it worked. I have never seen a setup like that, in
person; only read about them.
--
Jim in NC

[Phil]

I do remember the Dewey Bryan crash, recall that he was using an electric
motor with acme screw or a electric solenoid, believe he hit a switch in the
cockpit and retracted a shear pin, EAA recommended making it a requirement
to remove said pin from the outside only, Phil. Lohiser
"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> Re: Fix the high cost [Was:] High Cost of Sportplanes
> "Any mass produced successful sport aircraft today ought to have
> folding wings, whether it's trailered or if it goes in a community
> hanger. There is a folding wing mod for the venerable Ercoupe (it's
> STC'd or their equivalent in Canada, I'm not sure here) and five or six
> of them will fit in the hangar footprint of a Skylane."
>
>
> Some Ercoupes have (STC'd) folding wings?
>
> http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-integ_bryan.html
> (Saw this, for the first time, while hunting in Google)
>
>
> Montblack

[Bret Ludwig]

EVERY naval carrier aircraft except the A-4 Scooter has folding wings.
They hold up well in naval service, and add a small amount to the
weight of the aircraft.

As far as T-hangars go, obviously you wouldn't have T-hangars in the
first place if the wings folded. A lot of airplanes don't fit well in
T-hangars anyway.

Change; it's a wonderful thing.

[Newps]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

> EVERY naval carrier aircraft except the A-4 Scooter has folding wings.
> They hold up well in naval service,

Of course they do. The Navy can throw unlimited resources at an
airplane for maintenence. Just look at what it takes to keep an F14 in
the air for an hour.

[Ernest Christley]

Morgans wrote:
> "Rich S." > wrote
>
>
>>The two aileron cables are connected to a "Swash plate" located at the
>
> wing
>
>>joint. Another matching swash plate is mounted in the wing with cables
>>continuing to the aileron bell crank.
>>
>>When the wing is in place, the two swash plates are in contact. Which ever
>>way the inner plate moves, the outer plate must follow.
>>
>>---------------||----------------
>> ||
>>---------------||----------------
>
>
> I thought that is how it worked. I have never seen a setup like that, in
> person; only read about them.

The Delta's elevons are split in half. The inner half controlled with a
horn. A pin (a 5/16 bolt) welded in the outer panel's trailing edge
slots into the inner panels trailing edge tube.

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Bret Ludwig]

Newps wrote:
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
> > EVERY naval carrier aircraft except the A-4 Scooter has folding wings.
> > They hold up well in naval service,
>
> Of course they do. The Navy can throw unlimited resources at an
> airplane for maintenence. Just look at what it takes to keep an F14 in
> the air for an hour.

The wing folding systems are not maintenance hogs and are not a
prevailing cause of crashes: in fact i don't think one has ever
happened.

A Crusader was accidentally launched with folding wings once: it was
actually able to recover.

[Rich S.]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> A Crusader was accidentally launched with folding wings once: it was
> actually able to recover.

A fellow in our church group is a retired naval captain who flew A-7 Corsair
II's during Nam. His CAG took off one night on a "lights out" training
mission from a Naval Air Station runway. The Corsair II would barely climb,
so he aborted the mission and circled around for landing. He really had to
keep a lot of power on during the approach, but made a successful touchdown
and roll out.

Back on the ramp, he went through his shutdown checklist until he got to the
item "Fold Wings". The switch was in the folded position already. De-assing
the aircraft, he noticed that the wings were more than folded. They were
bent so the tips almost touched.

The wing lift had sprung both wings inward. The aircraft was beyond
practical repair and was scrapped.

Rich S.

[Richard Lamb]

Hey Earnest, (he said, changing the subject)
Do you have the plans for the Peanut Scale Dyke Delta?
I've wanted to build that one for years, but haven't found the plans
yet.

Richard

[Ernest Christley]

Richard Lamb wrote:
> Hey Earnest, (he said, changing the subject)
> Do you have the plans for the Peanut Scale Dyke Delta?
> I've wanted to build that one for years, but haven't found the plans
> yet.
>
> Richard
>

I've seen the plans on a model sight somewhere. But other than that,
all I have is the full size plans 8*)

--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Richard Lamb]

I took some pics of the white one at New Braunfels a couple of years
ago. Neat machine.

Studying those pics, I'm guessing there is a fairly healthy pitching
moment since the center of lift is WAY back behind the engine.

If anybody comes across the plans for it, would you mind letting
me know where to find it?

Building a small flying model would be most interesting lesson in
delta wing aerodynamics.

Richard