Garmin 530 Fatal Error

[Wyatt Emmerich]

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

[John Clonts]

"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message ...
> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent pilots is making the same potentially
> fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
> Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately, often the full approach
> plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
> eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and heading to the hold,
> which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
> about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is this: Garmin
> should have some type of display message that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to
> the hold fix.
>

Yeah, Seems like I remember the King Manual (KLN-94) pointing out that this is SPECIFICALLY why it doesn't
autosequence to the holding fix, and that you should follow instructions off the paper approach plate before
resuming...

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Wyatt Emmerich]

I mean with all the Garmin resources how hard can it be to fix this? I still
can't believe my Garmin 530 has no airways or altitude guidance on approach.
I called the Garmin tech support line and they said, "Nobody uses victor
airways anymore. Everybody flies direct." Gimme a break. Obviously they have
never flow around DC, New York, Chicago, etc. When the approach segments
come up, the screen should say "At or above xxxx." Jeez. I hope the upgrade
makes some amends.



"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
> ...
>> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
>> or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
>> Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
>> Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
>> which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
>> eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
>> it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
>> terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
>> about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the
>> OBS/Susp button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of
>> display message that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before
>> turning to the hold fix.
>>
>
> Yeah, Seems like I remember the King Manual (KLN-94) pointing out that
> this is SPECIFICALLY why it doesn't autosequence to the holding fix, and
> that you should follow instructions off the paper approach plate before
> resuming...
>
> --
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>
>

[Lynne]

I see your point clearly.

However, it appears to me that you want the GPS to do a bit too much
for you. Remember, it is still your responsibility as the pilot of the
aircraft to fly the procedure as published. Do you suppose if the GPS
told you everything you need to know about the approach to fly it
safely you'd be less reliant on the approach plate? I do, and I am not
certain that's a good thing.

Lynne

[Wyatt Emmerich]

But the GPS shouldn't suggest that you fly into a tower or terrain. Which is
what it does now. As soon as you pass the MAP point, the SUSP button starts
to blink, begging the pilot to press it and fly to the hold. What the SUSP
should do is blink with the additional message, "no turn until xxxx
altitude." Come one. How difficult is that to program? Given Garmin's
dominant position as an IFR GPS, it's not too much to expect.


"Lynne" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I see your point clearly.
>
> However, it appears to me that you want the GPS to do a bit too much
> for you. Remember, it is still your responsibility as the pilot of the
> aircraft to fly the procedure as published. Do you suppose if the GPS
> told you everything you need to know about the approach to fly it
> safely you'd be less reliant on the approach plate? I do, and I am not
> certain that's a good thing.
>
> Lynne
>

[Dave Butler]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:
> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
> the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
> 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
> often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
> heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
> We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
> this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

Seems to me the error is on the part of the pilot, not the avionics.

Is it really a fatal mistake to hit the SUSP button too soon? Just because you
hit the button doesn't mean you aren't going to follow the correct missed
approach procedure. Hit the button, climb to the required altitude, then proceed
to the MAP. Maybe you have to punch DIRECT when you reach the altitude.

The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the concept of
a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first leg of such a
missed approach procedure.

Dave

[Andrew Gideon]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

> I called the Garmin tech support line and they said, "Nobody uses victor
> airways anymore. Everybody flies direct.

I'd a very similar conversation with Garmin tech support when researching
the WAAS upgrade. I too asked about flightplan entry via airways (as the
480 does). The reply I received is that they thought it too much more
complex for pilots.

Why can't they just come out and say "we don't feel like it; what are you
going to do about it?" At least that would be honest.

A local FBO is upgrading one of their 182s with a 480. It'll be at least
$25/hour more expensive than my club's 430-carrying R182 (and even more
than our 430-carrying 182), but I need to try it at least once if only just
for the flight plan entry.

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
> the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
> 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
> often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
> heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
> We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
> this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

Alas, the age of button pushers. It is called "suspend" for a reason. If it
were auto-sequence to the missed approach fix then that is what would happen.
But, it's "suspend" which means don't push the button accept in accordance with
the paper chart. I recall the Garmin manual saying something to that effect,
although I may be wrong.

As to the 530 having the altitude for the turn, that is much more sophisticated
than the specs in TSO-C129 except or allow. You find that stuff in high end
LNAV/FMS systems.

As to the lack of an airway database, Garmin screwed that one up in the design
and now they don't have sufficient memory to make it work. They know they're
wrong, but they simply won't admit it. If you were them, would you?

[Andrew Gideon]

Dave Butler wrote:

> The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the
> concept of a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first
> leg of such a missed approach procedure.

How is that displayed on the map? Does the map automatically shift the next
leg to "direct to the next waypoint" from the location at which the
altitude is reached? What waypoint is displayed in the climbing leg?

This sounds like an incredibly useful feature.

There's a departure procedure at KTEB that's even more complex than this.
From runways 1 and 6, this feature would cover it. But from 19, the
procedure is runway heading until 800, then right to 280. Maintain 1500
until crossing the TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME, then climb to 2000.

Note the "TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME" "waypoint". Can the 480 handle
this?

- Andrew

[Mike Rapoport]

"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
...
> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
> or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
> Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
> Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
> which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
> eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
> it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
> terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
> about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp
> button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of display message
> that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to the
> hold fix.
>

The SUSP illuminates to show the pilot that waypoint sequencing is
suspended. No more.

The functions are the same on all the GPS units and it is part of the TSO.
Anyway, it is not Garmin's fault that pilots don't read the manual and don't
follow approach plates...its the pilots fault.

Has anyone ever crashed because of this?

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

It is the way it is because it is part of the TSO.

Mike
MU-2


"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
...
> But the GPS shouldn't suggest that you fly into a tower or terrain. Which
> is what it does now. As soon as you pass the MAP point, the SUSP button
> starts to blink, begging the pilot to press it and fly to the hold. What
> the SUSP should do is blink with the additional message, "no turn until
> xxxx altitude." Come one. How difficult is that to program? Given Garmin's
> dominant position as an IFR GPS, it's not too much to expect.
>
>
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> I see your point clearly.
>>
>> However, it appears to me that you want the GPS to do a bit too much
>> for you. Remember, it is still your responsibility as the pilot of the
>> aircraft to fly the procedure as published. Do you suppose if the GPS
>> told you everything you need to know about the approach to fly it
>> safely you'd be less reliant on the approach plate? I do, and I am not
>> certain that's a good thing.
>>
>> Lynne
>>
>
>

[Doug]

When I fly an approach I usually put my King KLN90B in OBS (aka hold)
mode. This suspends waypoint sequencing. I make the FAF the current
waypoint and dial in the inbound heading. When I go missed, I just
ignore the GPS and follow the written instructions in the chart.
Usually a climb and to the holding fix. I make sure the holding fix is
in my flight plan, that way it is on the GPS map. I look at the little
airplane icon and head to the holding fix. Once leveled out, I can
start fiddleing with the GPS to get me onto the next step, whatever
that is. I like having the approach on the GPS map when I go missed,
that way I know where I am, I have a mental picture of where the missed
it in relation to the inbound course. All of this varies from approach
to approach, as there are many possiblities. Many GPS approaches and
even others have the missed approach fix the FAF, which is a nice
arrangement, you don't have an additional fix to worry about.

If I use my autopilot to fly the missed I don't couple it to the GPS, I
use heading (or in my case wing level) mode.

Above all, don't get hung up on the unit. Keep it simple. My way of
doing it also means I don't even have to hit a button (and possibly
screw things up) after I go missed. I just fly to the missed approach
fix using what is on the map. It's been working well.

YMMV.

[Dave Butler]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>
>>The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the
>>concept of a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first
>>leg of such a missed approach procedure.
>
>
> How is that displayed on the map? Does the map automatically shift the next
> leg to "direct to the next waypoint" from the location at which the
> altitude is reached? What waypoint is displayed in the climbing leg?

http://www.garmin.com/manuals/GNS480_PilotsGuide.pdf (7+ meg download)

see p. 66(74 of 158) Leg Types
p. 68(76 of 158) Heading to an Altitude
p. 80(88 of 158) Flying the Missed Approach

The page number is the Garmin page numbering, and the (nn of 158) is the pdf
page number.

>
> This sounds like an incredibly useful feature.
>
> There's a departure procedure at KTEB that's even more complex than this.
> From runways 1 and 6, this feature would cover it. But from 19, the
> procedure is runway heading until 800, then right to 280. Maintain 1500
> until crossing the TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME, then climb to 2000.
>
> Note the "TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME" "waypoint". Can the 480 handle
> this?

Sorry, I don't have time to check on this right now, but maybe you can answer
this question with the information from the references above. I'll try to look
at this later.

Dave

[Marco Leon]

From the GNS430 Manual:
[pg71] Note: When viewing the map page, note that the final course segment
is displayed in magenta...and a dashed line extends the course beyond the
MAP. The dashed line is provided for situational awareness only and should
NOT be used for navigation. Follow the published missed approach procedures.

Also:
[pg72] 2. Follow the missed approach procedures, as published on your
approach plate, for proper climb and heading instructions...

Seems that they have themselves covered although I am assuming the GNS530
manual has the same language as the GNS430's. I don't think the GNSx30 boxes
are allowed to use their altitude for anything official until they get the
WAAS upgrade anyway. If they put a simple note as a warning, then they would
have to put similar warnings for other operations (e.g. warning the pilot to
descend to the proper altitude when it goes into OBS/SUSP mode during an
approach with a holding pattern).

As other peopl have said, it's up to the pilot. The boxes are in compliance
with all TSO-c129 requirements. The issue should be directed at the FAA.

Marco Leon


"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
...
> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or
> the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
> 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
> often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
and
> heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
towers.
> We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
> this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>
>



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[Thomas Borchert]

Wyatt,

> Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>

Well, I'm not sure I follow. The Garmin doesn't display the full missed
approach procedure. Not sure how explicit the manual is about it, but
it is pretty clear from even cursory reading (and looking at the
display). That's why it goes into "SUSPEND" - because the nnav
information isn't there. The data is simply not in the database. Legs
that end at an altitude, not a point, aer not part of the data format
used by the 430. Not even the G1000 has it, AFAIK. Only the 480.

Im my view, it is the pilot's responsibility to know about the
limitations of the gear he is using. All the stuff in the plane has
limitations. And we should inform ourselves about them. Nothing to it.
And nothing wrong with Garmin about it at all.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Scott Moore]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote On 10/11/05 19:39,:
> My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
> the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
> 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
> often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
> heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
> We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
> this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>
>

Why not just a warning label on the front that says "not for use by idiots".

[Scott Moore]

Mike Rapoport wrote On 10/12/05 07:34,:
> "Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
>>or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
>>Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
>>Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
>>which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
>>eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
>>it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
>>terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
>>about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp
>>button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of display message
>>that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to the
>>hold fix.
>>
>
>
> The SUSP illuminates to show the pilot that waypoint sequencing is
> suspended. No more.
>
> The functions are the same on all the GPS units and it is part of the TSO.
> Anyway, it is not Garmin's fault that pilots don't read the manual and don't
> follow approach plates...its the pilots fault.
>
> Has anyone ever crashed because of this?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>

I crashed my head into the panel trying to push the button. Does that count ?

[Mitty]

Best suggestion I've seen so far.

On 10/12/2005 3:15 PM, Scott Moore wrote the following:
> Wyatt Emmerich wrote On 10/11/05 19:39,:
>
>>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
>>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
>>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
>>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
>>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
>>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
>>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
>>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
>>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
>>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
>>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>>
>>
>
>
> Why not just a warning label on the front that says "not for use by idiots".
>

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
> wrote:

>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
instructions, go to holding point.

You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
fly the plate as charted.

Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
procedure from the manual.

[Wyatt Emmerich]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot decides
to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
the FAA and Garmin.




"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
> > wrote:
>
>>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
>>or
>>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
>>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
>>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
>>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
>>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
>>and
>>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
>>towers.
>>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
>>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
>>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
>>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>
> I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
> page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
> instructions, go to holding point.
>
> You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
> and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
> fly the plate as charted.
>
> Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
> holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
> right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
> procedure from the manual.

[Thomas Borchert]

Wyatt,

> Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
> problem.

Yes, it does. Ask him how many make mistakes with VORs.

> This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
> the FAA and Garmin.

No, it's not. This is like asking "why doesn't "the box" keep the plane flying
when the engine fails?". "The box" doesn't claim to do what you want it to do.
So why are you expecting it to?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

> I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
> do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
> line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot decides
> to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The box does do the job for which it is designed. That is, to continue an
extension of the final approach course until you take the necessary action to
fly the missed approach procedure. What does a VOR do when you reach the MAP?
It continues to fly the extension of the final approach course until you take
necessary action to fly the missed approach track.

>
>
> The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
> error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
> problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
> the FAA and Garmin.
>
> "Peter Clark" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> >>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
> >>or
> >>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
> >>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
> >>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> >>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> >>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
> >>and
> >>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
> >>towers.
> >>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> >>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
> >>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
> >>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
> >
> > I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
> > page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
> > instructions, go to holding point.
> >
> > You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
> > and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
> > fly the plate as charted.
> >
> > Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
> > holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
> > right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
> > procedure from the manual.

[Dave Butler]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:
> I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
> do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
> line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot decides
> to hit the blinking SUSP button.
>
> The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
> error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
> problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
> the FAA and Garmin.

....so I guess you'll be upgrading to a TSO146 navigator on an emergency basis. :)

[Marco Leon]

You are essentially expecting the GNS530 to provide vertical navigation with
safeguards against terrain. It may seem simple enough to flash a message
given the situation you (and your instructor) are considering but it would
have to flash the same message before every missed approach. I for one would
not welcome an extra step to satisfy some of Garmin's lawyers during a very
busy time.

The magenta line only provides lateral navigation. Given that, I need to
ask:
1) How would it know your aircraft's climb capabilities?
2) How would it account for the different weight and wind considerations?
Maybe you CAN make it over the mountain.
3) Wouldn't it need full TAWS capabilities?

You're original point is a good one to consider but it's out of scope for
TSO-C129. I bet it is being considered during future TSO standards
development.

Marco Leon

"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
...
> I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
> do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
> line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot
decides
> to hit the blinking SUSP button.
>
> The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
> error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
> problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part
of
> the FAA and Garmin.
>
>
>
>
> "Peter Clark" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
> >>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
> >>or
> >>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin
> >>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately,
> >>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
> >>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
> >>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
> >>and
> >>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
> >>towers.
> >>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
> >>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point
is
> >>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the
pilot
> >>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
> >
> > I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
> > page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
> > instructions, go to holding point.
> >
> > You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
> > and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
> > fly the plate as charted.
> >
> > Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
> > holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
> > right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
> > procedure from the manual.
>
>



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[Doug]

Not only that but the Garmin 430 and 530 do reverse sensing under some
circumstances.

I t is easy to imagine these GPS's doing LOTS of things, and there are
lot of things possible they won't currently do . But that is the way
they work. Learn what they do and what they wont do. They are great
tools, but they don't do everything you can imagine.

[Scott Moore]

Doug wrote On 10/13/05 14:05,:
> Not only that but the Garmin 430 and 530 do reverse sensing under some
> circumstances.
>

What circumstances ? You are flying upside down ?

[Bill]

Good thing the 8/8 showed up for a flight review!

The M3 does cue this, under the same TSO. Says something like
Climb, then u push it again and it gives course to holding fix.

I find that the 8/8 also never check the departure procedure on the
plates
and do not know that you implicitly insert those before your enroute
clearance.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor

[Wyatt Emmerich]

What great defenders of mediocrity you all are! It is unbelievably simple to
program the 530 to flash the message "Do not press send until xxxx feet."
Or, pray tell, it could actually use the GPS to determine the altitude and
not blink the SUSP until you reach it.

What exactly is the point of defending the ancient "let the idiots die"
philosophy. I suspect it's some misguided macho "holier than thou" ideology
rooted more in egotism than desire for safe system.

As pilots, we should be pressing Garmin to do better, not excusing
substandard programming. Chelton and many others have already made this fix.
What is the point of making excuses for Garmin. You want all the pilots
lacking your skills to die? God bless you.



"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> You are essentially expecting the GNS530 to provide vertical navigation
> with
> safeguards against terrain. It may seem simple enough to flash a message
> given the situation you (and your instructor) are considering but it would
> have to flash the same message before every missed approach. I for one
> would
> not welcome an extra step to satisfy some of Garmin's lawyers during a
> very
> busy time.
>
> The magenta line only provides lateral navigation. Given that, I need to
> ask:
> 1) How would it know your aircraft's climb capabilities?
> 2) How would it account for the different weight and wind considerations?
> Maybe you CAN make it over the mountain.
> 3) Wouldn't it need full TAWS capabilities?
>
> You're original point is a good one to consider but it's out of scope for
> TSO-C129. I bet it is being considered during future TSO standards
> development.
>
> Marco Leon
>
> "Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought
>> to
>> do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
>> line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot
> decides
>> to hit the blinking SUSP button.
>>
>> The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
>> error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
>> problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part
> of
>> the FAA and Garmin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Peter Clark" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> >>My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
>> >>pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach
>> >>MDA
>> >>or
>> >>the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
> Garmin
>> >>530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
> Unfortunately,
>> >>often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to
>> >>climb
>> >>before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
>> >>recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
>> >>and
>> >>heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
>> >>towers.
>> >>We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure
>> >>to
>> >>reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point
> is
>> >>this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the
> pilot
>> >>to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
>> > page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
>> > instructions, go to holding point.
>> >
>> > You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
>> > and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
>> > fly the plate as charted.
>> >
>> > Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
>> > holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
>> > right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
>> > procedure from the manual.
>>
>>
>
>
>
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[Doug]

>What circumstances ? You are flying upside down ?

Let us say you are approaching a waypoint headed due west. You push
direct to and have a course line to the waypoint. Now let us say thay
you move to the south by 1/2 mile. The waypoint is to your right
(north). The CDI reads to the right as it should. Your GPS says your
waypoint is 1/2 mile right. Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn (to the south
so you are still south of the waypoint. Your CDI still says it is to
the right, indicating it is to the SOUTH!. (Unless you have a Garmin
480 which is the only IFR certified GPS unit that will correct for
this). Some handhelds may correct for this also. ALL the IFR GPS units
that were certified under the old spec (pre WAAS), will reverse sense.

[Jose]

> Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn

So, it behaves just like a VOR. Good. Pilots are used to VORs.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Thomas Borchert]

Wyatt,

> What great defenders of mediocrity you all are!
>

Well, remind us again about your background in constructuing,
programming AND certifying aviation GPS units. Or could it it be you're
just a smart*ss trying to insult a large number of people at once?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dave Butler]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:
> What great defenders of mediocrity you all are! It is unbelievably simple to
> program the 530 to flash the message "Do not press send until xxxx feet."
> Or, pray tell, it could actually use the GPS to determine the altitude and
> not blink the SUSP until you reach it.
>
> What exactly is the point of defending the ancient "let the idiots die"
> philosophy. I suspect it's some misguided macho "holier than thou" ideology
> rooted more in egotism than desire for safe system.
>
> As pilots, we should be pressing Garmin to do better, not excusing
> substandard programming. Chelton and many others have already made this fix.
> What is the point of making excuses for Garmin. You want all the pilots
> lacking your skills to die? God bless you.

So far Chelton isn't taking much market share from Garmin. Perhaps you should
start your own GPS company, then you can decide how best to spend your
development and certification dollars, and if you do it right, you'll drive
Garmin right out of the market. After all, it's unbelievably simple to program.

As the marketing folks at companies where I have developed software like to say,
it's SMOP, a simple matter of programming.

[Dan Luke]

"Dave Butler" wrote:

> As the marketing folks at companies where I have developed software like to
> say, it's SMOP, a simple matter of programming.

From the "old days" at Honeywell, the Software Order Of Magnitude Law:

Software revisions estimated to take a day will take a week.

Software revisions estimated to take a week will take a month.

Software revisions estimated to take a month will take a year.

Software revisions estimated to take a year will never be finished.


--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Scott Moore]

Doug wrote On 10/13/05 18:32,:
>>What circumstances ? You are flying upside down ?
>
>
> Let us say you are approaching a waypoint headed due west. You push
> direct to and have a course line to the waypoint. Now let us say thay
> you move to the south by 1/2 mile. The waypoint is to your right
> (north). The CDI reads to the right as it should. Your GPS says your
> waypoint is 1/2 mile right. Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn (to the south
> so you are still south of the waypoint. Your CDI still says it is to
> the right, indicating it is to the SOUTH!. (Unless you have a Garmin
> 480 which is the only IFR certified GPS unit that will correct for
> this). Some handhelds may correct for this also. ALL the IFR GPS units
> that were certified under the old spec (pre WAAS), will reverse sense.
>

I suppose that was a stupid question on my part. I have never actually
used a CDI except as a novice pilot. I consider them to be about as
technically advanced as a steam powered can opener.

I'm not sure how Garmin would correct for a CDI's faults, but I'll take
your word for it.

[Scott Moore]

Thomas Borchert wrote On 10/14/05 00:27,:
> Wyatt,
>
>
>>What great defenders of mediocrity you all are!
>>
>
>
> Well, remind us again about your background in constructuing,
> programming AND certifying aviation GPS units. Or could it it be you're
> just a smart*ss trying to insult a large number of people at once?
>

Come on. The smartest programmers I know have never written a line of
code :-)

[Scott Moore]

Wyatt Emmerich wrote On 10/13/05 17:41,:
>
> What exactly is the point of defending the ancient "let the idiots die"
> philosophy. I suspect it's some misguided macho "holier than thou" ideology
> rooted more in egotism than desire for safe system.

We are advancing Darwinisim, and thus improving mankind. Its actually a
very noble goal, something akin to handing out shotguns in the deep south.

Oh, wait a minute, too late.....

[Mike Rapoport]

"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in message
...
> What great defenders of mediocrity you all are! It is unbelievably simple
> to program the 530 to flash the message "Do not press send until xxxx
> feet." Or, pray tell, it could actually use the GPS to determine the
> altitude and not blink the SUSP until you reach it.

Well, the SUSP starts blinking when the waypoint sequencing is SUSPended.
The MSG light illuminates when ther is a MeSsaGe. The "Turn to XXX"
illuminates when the course programmed into the box requires a Turn to XXX.
Seems reasonable to me.

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Rapoport]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Doug" > wrote:
>
>> Let us say you are approaching a waypoint headed due west. You push
>>direct to and have a course line to the waypoint. Now let us say thay
>>you move to the south by 1/2 mile. The waypoint is to your right
>>(north). The CDI reads to the right as it should. Your GPS says your
>>waypoint is 1/2 mile right. Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn (to the south
>>so you are still south of the waypoint. Your CDI still says it is to
>>the right, indicating it is to the SOUTH!.
>
> Which, presumably, why an HSI is better because one can see at a
> glance that the course pointer is pointing the opposite way to one's
> heading, so one can clearly see the deflection of the bar is not in
> the correct direction.
>
> How does the 480 correct for this? To do anything, it needs to be
> aware of the aircraft heading. Does it have a heading input?
>

It could just use track.

Mike
MU-2

[Thomas Borchert]

Scott,

> Come on. The smartest programmers I know have never written a line of
> code :-)
>

A good one :-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dave Butler]

Dave Butler wrote:
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the
>>> concept of a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first
>>> leg of such a missed approach procedure.
>>
>>
>>
>> How is that displayed on the map? Does the map automatically shift
>> the next
>> leg to "direct to the next waypoint" from the location at which the
>> altitude is reached? What waypoint is displayed in the climbing leg?
>
>
> http://www.garmin.com/manuals/GNS480_PilotsGuide.pdf (7+ meg download)
>
> see p. 66(74 of 158) Leg Types
> p. 68(76 of 158) Heading to an Altitude
> p. 80(88 of 158) Flying the Missed Approach
>
> The page number is the Garmin page numbering, and the (nn of 158) is the
> pdf page number.
>
>>
>> This sounds like an incredibly useful feature.
>>
>> There's a departure procedure at KTEB that's even more complex than
>> this. From runways 1 and 6, this feature would cover it. But from 19,
>> the
>> procedure is runway heading until 800, then right to 280. Maintain 1500
>> until crossing the TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME, then climb to 2000.
>>
>> Note the "TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME" "waypoint". Can the 480
>> handle
>> this?
>
>
> Sorry, I don't have time to check on this right now, but maybe you can
> answer this question with the information from the references above.
> I'll try to look at this later.

I've just had a week off and had a little time to look at this. It appears that
the answer is that this departure procedure is not in the 480's database, same
as for all DPs that are strictly "pilot nav". There is no GPS guidance for this
departure procedure. This DP is all about headings to fly, no navigational guidance.

Dave

[Doug]

It is not the CDI, the CDI is getting it's right and left from the GPS.


The question at the meeting was. At what point should the IFR GPS
change the right to left and left to right (under the 180 degree
scenario above)? The conclusion was. NEVER! Of course you can push the
direct to button again and all will be well again. But the point is,
IFR GPS units can REVERSE SENSE and most pilots and instructors are not
aware of this how or why or when.

Now to further confuse things, the NEW spec (the spec the 480 is
certified under), the unit automatically corrects for this erroneous
right and left. Sheesh, no wonder everyone is confused! And of course,
so do many handhelds (ones that advertise they have an "HSI" and not an
OBS).

[Dave Butler]

Doug wrote:
> It is not the CDI, the CDI is getting it's right and left from the GPS.

What is not the CDI?

> The question at the meeting was. At what point should the IFR GPS

What meeting?

> change the right to left and left to right (under the 180 degree
> scenario above)? The conclusion was. NEVER! Of course you can push the

There is no scenario above(?).

> direct to button again and all will be well again. But the point is,
> IFR GPS units can REVERSE SENSE and most pilots and instructors are not
> aware of this how or why or when.
>
> Now to further confuse things, the NEW spec (the spec the 480 is
> certified under), the unit automatically corrects for this erroneous

Are you referring to TSO C146?

> right and left. Sheesh, no wonder everyone is confused! And of course,
> so do many handhelds (ones that advertise they have an "HSI" and not an
> OBS).

Well, my Garmin GNS480 has an HSI (track-based) display, and also an OBS/CDI.
When I'm outbound for a straight-in approach with (say) the approach course on
my right, the HSI display correctly shows that the approach course is to my
right. The CDI gives a "fly-left" indication (that is, the needle is on the left
side of the instrument case). I didn't think this was different from the output
of TSO C127 navigators.

I don't find it confusing, though. That's just the way it works.

Dave