Bid to buy the Beechcraft was rigged?

[Montblack]

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_287083948.html

(WCCO) St. Paul
"At least four state senators want to know if Minnesota taxpayers paid way
too much for an airplane purchased by the state and if the plane was even
needed.

The 2005 Beechcraft Bonanza cost $727,000, but a Minnesota company said the
state could have bought a better plane for half the price. Now, lawmakers
wonder if the bid to buy the Beechcraft was rigged.

In the depths of a serious budget crisis, the state of Minnesota went
airplane shopping this summer to replace a 1978 Beechcraft.

The Transportation Department said it needs a new plane to better monitor
safety at Minnesota's small airports.

"These are their versions of our MnDOT trucks," said Robert McFarlin,
assistant to Transportation Commissioner Carol Molnau. "These are their
working vehicles to get to airports across the state."

For nearly $300,000 less, it could have bought a Minnesota-made Cirrus
SR-22."


The scandal angle was played up by local TV, without a good look at the
state's requirements - for the bids. Anyway, this one might have legs,
.....er, wings.


Montblack

[Bret Ludwig]

$727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!

And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
you know it. It's greed and gullibility.

[Jay Honeck]

> $727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!
>
> And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
> you know it. It's greed and gullibility.

Not much to add to that!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[B. Jensen]

Especially for a state that's budget is running a huge deficit. It's
also nice that the state of MN doesn't even support one of their own
successful businesses.

I'm assuming the Beechcraft was an A36, and that MnDot wanted a 6 place
A/C, but I can't confirm that. It appears to me that whoever made the
decision was afraid of composite aircraft.

BJ


Bret Ludwig wrote:
> $727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!
>
> And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
> you know it. It's greed and gullibility.
>

[Dan Luke]

"Bret Ludwig" wrote:

> $727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!
>
> And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
> you know it. It's greed and gullibility.


That's the going price for a new A36. It's what Raytheon needs to
charge to make money on the airplane, and it finds a market at that
price. What's the problem?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Bret Ludwig]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Bret Ludwig" wrote:
>
> > $727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!
> >
> > And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
> > you know it. It's greed and gullibility.
>
>
> That's the going price for a new A36. It's what Raytheon needs to
> charge to make money on the airplane, and it finds a market at that
> price. What's the problem?


They must be an incredibly bloated company to need that much money. In
fact they are. I have relatives that work at the plant on Webb Rd. Of
couirse the production people are not munificently paid, in fact a
career there on the rivet driving side will be punctuated with layoffs
like anywhere else. The executives live like maharajahs of course.

I think they have imported Hollywood accountants who can make the most
profitable enterprises lose money on paper.

You have no idea how much I'd like to see some company, foreign or
domestic, slam a trocar in their carcass and drain off a few hundred
gallons of that pure profit blood bloating their morbidly obese asses
so they can fit through the front door and out on thweir ass on Kellogg
Ave. Sooner or later, someone will.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dan Luke wrote:
>> "Bret Ludwig" wrote:
>>
>> > $727,000 is insane for a 60 year old design airplane!
>> >
>> > And don't blow any liability horse**** up my ass. It's bull**** and
>> > you know it. It's greed and gullibility.
>>
>>
>> That's the going price for a new A36. It's what Raytheon needs to
>> charge to make money on the airplane, and it finds a market at that
>> price. What's the problem?
>
>
> They must be an incredibly bloated company to need that much money. In
> fact they are. I have relatives that work at the plant on Webb Rd. Of
> couirse the production people are not munificently paid, in fact a
> career there on the rivet driving side will be punctuated with layoffs
> like anywhere else. The executives live like maharajahs of course.
>
> I think they have imported Hollywood accountants who can make the most
> profitable enterprises lose money on paper.
>
> You have no idea how much I'd like to see some company, foreign or
> domestic, slam a trocar in their carcass and drain off a few hundred
> gallons of that pure profit blood bloating their morbidly obese asses
> so they can fit through the front door and out on thweir ass on Kellogg
> Ave. Sooner or later, someone will.

Brett, ol boy, you seem to have a lot of issues. Let's see, we've got the
biting and completely unhelpful responses to a series of reasonable posts
over on rec.aviation.military, a post somewhere urging part 103 to be
expanded to allow the not-so-smart to kill themselves, and now you're
throwing down on Beechcraft?

You probably need to switch to decaff...

KB

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Montblack" > wrote:
> The 2005 Beechcraft Bonanza cost $727,000, but a Minnesota company said the
> state could have bought a better plane for half the price. Now, lawmakers
> wonder if the bid to buy the Beechcraft was rigged.

In my opinion, the Bonanza is a better plane than the SR22, though it
would seem to make sense that the State of MN should purchase a plane
manufactured by a MN company.

Nevertheless, I can guarantee that the state legislature has MILLIONS of
pork in other areas, so someone must have an axe to grind to pick up on
a possible $400k unnecessary expenditure.



JKG

[Nathan Young]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:46:25 -0500, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>http://wcco.com/local/local_story_287083948.html

An A36 has 6 seats, an SR22 has 4. Perhaps that is the deciding
factor. If not, it is poor form for the State of MN not to support
one of their own.

[George Patterson]

Montblack wrote:

> The 2005 Beechcraft Bonanza cost $727,000, but a Minnesota company said
> the state could have bought a better plane for half the price.

In that case, the State should sell the Beechcraft. They ought to be able to get
nearly waht they paid for it, since that *is* market value of the plane.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Montblack]

("Nathan Young" wrote)
>> http://wcco.com/local/local_story_287083948.html

> An A36 has 6 seats, an SR22 has 4. Perhaps that is the deciding
> factor. If not, it is poor form for the State of MN not to support
> one of their own.


My thought was a cargo door(?) might be a deciding factor.

I suspect if you looked at ...(picking) ...the last three years worth of
missions... those six seats weren't full very often. Just a guess.

Were they hauling stuff around like (wait for it) ....a minivan? If that was
the case, then a slower hauler would be the ticket.

From St Paul (KSTP) ....nautical miles

Duluth (DLH) ..........................120 Lake Superior
(Home of Cirrus)

Grand Marais (CKC) .............205 Up the North Shore
Ely (ELO) ................................180
International Falls (INL) ..........220 Canadian border
Roseau (ROX) ........................260 NW corner

Bemidji (BJI) ...........................170 Middle of state
Brainerd (BRD) ......................100 ''
St Cloud (STC) .........................56 ''

Moorhead (JKJ) .....................190 Fargo/N Dakota border

Marshall (MML) ......................120 Southwest
Worthington (ORT) .................130 Near SD/Iowa border

Rochester (RST) ..................... 65 Mayo Clinic SE corner
Albert Lea (AEL) ......................75 Near Iowa border

If they're flying outside of Minnesota:

Chicago Midway (MDW) ........300
Denver (DEN) ..........................600
St Louis (STL) .........................400

It would be nice if the state only bought Ford Rangers too, built in St
Paul - but they don't.

I'm waiting to read more on this story.


Montblack

[N93332]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> It would be nice if the state only bought Ford Rangers too, built in St
> Paul - but they don't.


It'd be nice if Mn (and other states) would consider buying and supporting
their local industries or have a good reason if they don't.

[Robert M. Gary]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Dan Luke wrote:
> > "Bret Ludwig" wrote:

>
> They must be an incredibly bloated company to need that much money. In
> fact they are. I have relatives that work at the plant on Webb Rd. Of
> couirse the production people are not munificently paid, in fact a
> career there on the rivet driving side will be punctuated with layoffs
> like anywhere else. The executives live like maharajahs of course.

Nothing wrong with that, the company has ever right to charge ANYTHING
they want for their product, this isn't Russia. What is costs me to
produce my product is NONE of your business. The question is, did they
charge the state more than they normally charge for their product. That
would be unethical if they took advantage of a nobid situation.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> In my opinion, the Bonanza is a better plane than the SR22

Well, a Citation is also better than a King air but they are different
planes. The SR22 is a good 2 person business plane (you can put kids in
the back but not suits), the Bonanza is a good 4/5 person plane.
-Robert

[Bret Ludwig]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> > Dan Luke wrote:
> > > "Bret Ludwig" wrote:
>
> >
> > They must be an incredibly bloated company to need that much money. In
> > fact they are. I have relatives that work at the plant on Webb Rd. Of
> > couirse the production people are not munificently paid, in fact a
> > career there on the rivet driving side will be punctuated with layoffs
> > like anywhere else. The executives live like maharajahs of course.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, the company has ever right to charge ANYTHING
> they want for their product, this isn't Russia. What is costs me to
> produce my product is NONE of your business. The question is, did they
> charge the state more than they normally charge for their product. That
> would be unethical if they took advantage of a nobid situation.

They do. The buyers have a right to be as gullible as they want to be.

You have every right to keep the profit margin of your product secret,
I have every right to make an educated guess as to what it is. This is
called "business analysis" and is a key to success in business. I have
every right to choose if I think excessive profit margin is reason for
me to buy elsewhere. In fact I have every right to choose any reason or
none at all to buy elsewhere.

The company is not being accused of plumping the price as far as I
know, the "beef" is against the state buying officials who decided they
wanted the $750K Bonanza vs. the $350K Cirrus despite the latter
properly fulfilling the stated bid requirements.

[Matt Barrow]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>> Dan Luke wrote:
>> > "Bret Ludwig" wrote:
>
>>
>> They must be an incredibly bloated company to need that much money. In
>> fact they are. I have relatives that work at the plant on Webb Rd. Of
>> couirse the production people are not munificently paid, in fact a
>> career there on the rivet driving side will be punctuated with layoffs
>> like anywhere else. The executives live like maharajahs of course.
>
> Nothing wrong with that, the company has ever right to charge ANYTHING
> they want for their product, this isn't Russia. What is costs me to
> produce my product is NONE of your business. The question is, did they
> charge the state more than they normally charge for their product. That
> would be unethical if they took advantage of a nobid situation.

Why?

Sounds like the state needs a kick in the ass for putting out no-bid PO's.

[Matt Barrow]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> They do. The buyers have a right to be as gullible as they want to be.
>
> You have every right to keep the profit margin of your product secret,
> I have every right to make an educated guess as to what it is. This is
> called "business analysis" and is a key to success in business.

Oh? What school of business is that?

> I have
> every right to choose if I think excessive profit margin is reason for
> me to buy elsewhere.

Indeed, you have that right, but that's a pretty lame business strategy.

> In fact I have every right to choose any reason or
> none at all to buy elsewhere.

Quite!

>
> The company is not being accused of plumping the price as far as I
> know, the "beef" is against the state buying officials who decided they
> wanted the $750K Bonanza vs. the $350K Cirrus despite the latter
> properly fulfilling the stated bid requirements.

Sounds like a typical example of someone spending other peoples money.


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, a Citation is also better than a King air but they are different
> planes. The SR22 is a good 2 person business plane (you can put kids in
> the back but not suits)

The SR-22 has an 1150 pound useful load. That's four 166 pounders with
full fuel, or four 200 pounders with (a still respectable) 58 gallons
on board.

The "suits" at your company must be super-sized if they can't fit in a
Cirrus!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www. AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> The "suits" at your company must be super-sized if they can't fit in a
> Cirrus!

Perhaps the issue is more a matter of space than weight? It's also possible that
two adults in the back shifts the COG too far.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-10-17, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> The "suits" at your company must be super-sized if they can't fit in a
> Cirrus!

Generally, they often are! At my last job, my office happened to be on
'managers row' as it were (a cluster of managers offices were right by
mine). If there was one thing similar about each of the managers on my
row, it was that none of them weighed under 250 lbs.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[xyzzy]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
> The company is not being accused of plumping the price as far as I
> know, the "beef" is against the state buying officials who decided they
> wanted the $750K Bonanza vs. the $350K Cirrus despite the latter
> properly fulfilling the stated bid requirements.

How long would the state have had to wait for delivery of a Cirrus vs a
Beechcraft?

The cited article said:

"MnDOT officials said they simply decided to trade in the old plane
rather than add to their fleet."

Which raises the question, did they really pay $700k for the Beechcraft,
or did they pay significantly less after trading in their old Beechcraft
(which Cirrus may or may not have been willing to take in trade)?

The purchase deserves scrutiny, but one should not just assume that a
plastic Cirrus (what's that airframe life limit now?) would be equally
suited for all missions as a six-seater Beechcraft.


--
"You can support the troops but not the president"
--Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.

[Robert M. Gary]

> The SR-22 has an 1150 pound useful load. That's four 166 pounders with
> full fuel, or four 200 pounders with (a still respectable) 58 gallons
> on board.

Its a space issue. Sitting in the back of an A36 is almost like sitting
in the back of an airline. Sitting in the back of an SR22 is like
sitting in the back of a VW bug. For non-GA people being shuttled
around on business, it could make a big difference.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> Why?

You are asking why I think it would be unethical to take advantage of a
no-bid situation? Ethics are something based on personal values and
standards. It's my opinion that it would be unethical, I don't need any
more justification than that. I think you'll find that most company's
internal standards and conducts guides also probit the same.

-robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> In my opinion, the Bonanza is a better plane than the SR22, though it
> would seem to make sense that the State of MN should purchase a plane
> manufactured by a MN company

Kinda like the flack that Bill Richards got for buying a Citation (or
similar) rather than an Eclipse (which isn't even certified yet). :)

-robert

[Darrel Toepfer]

xyzzy wrote:

> The purchase deserves scrutiny, but one should not just assume that a
> plastic Cirrus (what's that airframe life limit now?)

12,500 hours last I read...

[Dave Stadt]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > The SR-22 has an 1150 pound useful load. That's four 166 pounders with
> > full fuel, or four 200 pounders with (a still respectable) 58 gallons
> > on board.
>
> Its a space issue. Sitting in the back of an A36 is almost like sitting
> in the back of an airline. Sitting in the back of an SR22 is like
> sitting in the back of a VW bug. For non-GA people being shuttled
> around on business, it could make a big difference.
>
> -Robert

VW Bug vs.airliner........soooooo what's the difference?

[.Blueskies.]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message oups.com...
>> The SR-22 has an 1150 pound useful load. That's four 166 pounders with
>> full fuel, or four 200 pounders with (a still respectable) 58 gallons
>> on board.
>
> Its a space issue. Sitting in the back of an A36 is almost like sitting
> in the back of an airline. Sitting in the back of an SR22 is like
> sitting in the back of a VW bug. For non-GA people being shuttled
> around on business, it could make a big difference.
>
> -Robert
>

I'm just glad the state bought a small GA plane and they are using it to keep their small airport infrastructure
up-to-date and active. Isn't the insurance pretty out of sight on the Cirrus also? I figure the state will self insure,
but even they play the odds when they figure costs. How do the operating costs compare, anyway?

[Bret Ludwig]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > > The SR-22 has an 1150 pound useful load. That's four 166 pounders with
> > > full fuel, or four 200 pounders with (a still respectable) 58 gallons
> > > on board.
> >
> > Its a space issue. Sitting in the back of an A36 is almost like sitting
> > in the back of an airline. Sitting in the back of an SR22 is like
> > sitting in the back of a VW bug. For non-GA people being shuttled
> > around on business, it could make a big difference.
> >
> > -Robert
>
> VW Bug vs.airliner........soooooo what's the difference?
VW Bugs have more room.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> > In my opinion, the Bonanza is a better plane than the SR22
>
> Well, a Citation is also better than a King air but they are different
> planes. The SR22 is a good 2 person business plane (you can put kids in
> the back but not suits), the Bonanza is a good 4/5 person plane.
> -Robert

The Citation and King Air are different airplanes marketed to different
target audiences. The SR22 and Bonanza are marketed to the same target
audience as far as I can tell.

I agree that the Bonanza is more suited to the mission that you describe
above, but calling the SR22 a 2 person airplane is so misleading that
it's just wrong. The SR22 has ample room and useful load for 4 adults.
I'm not sure how many "suits" would be riding around in a Bonanza these
days anyway.



JKG