Buying Junk from Aircraft Spruce --- Or Putting Money Down a Rathole

[jls]

1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless as the
teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted. Their
customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on hold and
leave you there.

2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for handling
the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your purchase
contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.

3. Buyer beware: Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent an
hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six and the
needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one was
rotten.

4. Buyer beware: buying something like this from Spruce if it is
defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm like the
devil to get out of paying your money back.

5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and bolts
from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.

And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter news
editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft) announced
that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum steel
alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead received
a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength of
chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then another ...

[Jerry Springer]

jls wrote:
+++++++
>
> 4. Buyer beware: buying something like this from Spruce if it is
> defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm like the
> devil to get out of paying your money back.
>
> 5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and bolts
> from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.
>
> And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter news
> editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft) announced
> that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum steel
> alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead received
> a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength of
> chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
>
> Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then another ...
>
>
>
Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

[wmbjk]

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
> wrote:

> jls wrote:
>> So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

>Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
>BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

Jim, if you're reading, you're welcome at my place anytime.

Latchless, you're welcome as well, but please give advance notice so
that I can set out some leg-hold traps and prepare a rat hole for you.

Wayne

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk >
wrote:

>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
> wrote:
>
>> jls wrote:
>>> So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
>
>>Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
>>BTW I agree with everything you said.
>
>I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
>that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
>makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
>sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
>names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
>40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

[jls]

"Greybeard" > wrote in message
...
> My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
> determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
> anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
> there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
> that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
> tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
> stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
> until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
> going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
> things you can tell from "the way it works",
>
> "It's hard"
>
> "It's tough"
>
> "It's soft".
>
> Period.
>
> Greybeard
>
Hello, nobody at nowhere.

We'll take a sample of it and have it tested at our local technical college,
just to be sure. If the plate has chromium or molybdenum in it we'll find
out with absolute certainty. If they can't do a spectrophotometry test,
we'll find somebody who can. I'll publish the results here. You can place
your bets now.

I have taken 4130 tube and heated it red hot then quenched it in cold water.
It is then brittle, but mild steel will remain soft enough to bend. That's
why when you weld 4130, you have to normalize the welds by heating them
cherry red, then allowing them to cool gradually at room temperature and no
drafts. You, being the nobody at nowhere of authority, correct me if I'm
wrong here.

BTW, how many steel tube and rag aircraft have you built?

The purchaser called Spruce to warn them and got an admission from Spruce
that they had substituted mild steel because 4130 was not available and that
they could never be sure, with the new supplier they had.

That was after the purchaser had tested the purchased steel against the same
thickness 4130 by pulling a sample of it with some hydraulic equipment and a
calibrated gauge he uses to do destructive testing. He said the bolt holes
began to elongate at 60% of the pull necessary to elongate the bolt hole on
the known sample of 4130, indicating that the unknown sample was NOT 4130.
That's proof enough for him and anybody else with good sense.

Nobody, you can draw whatever conclusion you wish, but here in our chapter
we have drawn a conclusion based on sound evidence from a respected aircraft
builder and airframe and powerplant mechanic. Since the purchaser bought
the steel plate to be 4130 for wing attach fittings on a cantilever wing,
any knowledgeable people who read this could understand why he wrote Spruce
a letter and told them that substituting mild steel for 4130 (which is
exactly what they did) is dangerous.

Naturally he never got an answer. Naturally he won't be using that steel
plate for wing attach fittings. Naturally, as he just said over the phone
awhile ago, he won't be buying anything else from Aircraft Spruce. And
naturally, unscrupulous people who pollute the aircraft builder's market and
their toadies won't have much of anything reasonable to say.

As I said before, now having had yet another sour experience with Aircraft
Spruce, buyer beware!

[[email protected]]

jls wrote:
>
> I have taken 4130 tube and heated it red hot then quenched it in cold
water.
> It is then brittle, but mild steel will remain soft enough to bend.
That's
> why when you weld 4130, you have to normalize the welds by heating
them
> cherry red, then allowing them to cool gradually at room temperature
and no
> drafts. You, being the nobody at nowhere of authority, correct me
if I'm
> wrong here.
>

Earlier you wrote that ACS had substituted soft carbon steel for 4130.
Quenching high carbon steel makes it brittle and hard.

--

FF

[Plane Fun]

Re: Aircraft Spruce

Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
in the situation.

Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
demanded his money back. The instruments is within its' year
warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
company to his news-group. He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
would not deal with him in any way. Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
demands, at which time she terminated the conversation. Aircraft
Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
staff does not need to be abused.

There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
anyone that needs them.

I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
newsgroup. If anyone would like further information or needs
assistance please contact me directly at .
Thanks to all of our valued customers for continued support.

Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce

jls wrote:
> 1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
> warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless
as the
> teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted.
Their
> customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on
hold and
> leave you there.
>
> 2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for
handling
> the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your
purchase
> contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.
>
> 3. Buyer beware: Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent
an
> hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six
and the
> needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
> before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one
was
> rotten.
>
> 4. Buyer beware: buying something like this from Spruce if it is
> defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm
like the
> devil to get out of paying your money back.
>
> 5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and
bolts
> from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.
>
> And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter
news
> editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft)
announced
> that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum
steel
> alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead
received
> a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength
of
> chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
>
> Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then
another ...

[Gig Giacona]

Mr. Irwin I wouldn't worry about Larry in the least. We don't


"Plane Fun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Re: Aircraft Spruce
>
> Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
> junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
> in the situation.
>
> Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
> yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
> demanded his money back. The instruments is within its' year
> warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
> warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
> Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
> company to his news-group. He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
> verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
> would not deal with him in any way. Our Customer Service manager,
> Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
> problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
> She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
> demands, at which time she terminated the conversation. Aircraft
> Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
> staff does not need to be abused.
>
> There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
> "mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
> therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
> outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
> to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
> is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
> been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
> sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
> are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
> be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
> this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
> furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
> anyone that needs them.
>
> I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
> newsgroup. If anyone would like further information or needs
> assistance please contact me directly at .
> Thanks to all of our valued customers for continued support.
>
> Jim Irwin
> President, Aircraft Spruce
>
> jls wrote:
>> 1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
>> warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless
> as the
>> teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted.
> Their
>> customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on
> hold and
>> leave you there.
>>
>> 2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for
> handling
>> the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your
> purchase
>> contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.
>>
>> 3. Buyer beware: Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent
> an
>> hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six
> and the
>> needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
>> before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one
> was
>> rotten.
>>
>> 4. Buyer beware: buying something like this from Spruce if it is
>> defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm
> like the
>> devil to get out of paying your money back.
>>
>> 5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and
> bolts
>> from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.
>>
>> And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter
> news
>> editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft)
> announced
>> that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum
> steel
>> alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead
> received
>> a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength
> of
>> chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
>>
>> Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then
> another ...
>

[Dave Hyde]

Plane Fun wrote...

> I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
> newsgroup.
....
> Jim Irwin
> President, Aircraft Spruce

It clarified one for me. But just to make sure, I tried to search
Aircraft Spruce's website for their privacy policy.

"Sorry. Nothing matched your search for PRIVACY. Please try a
different search.

You won't be getting any personal information, or cash, from me.

Dave 'CAFB' Hyde

[Birdy]

Michell Instruments would not honor their warranty on an instrument I
purchased. The gauge came from Chief and they gave me my money back with no
problems. Michell's warranty runs from the date of manufacture, not the date
of purchase and the only way to determine the manufactured date is to call
Mitchell with the serial no. An instrument could sit in a dealer's inventory
for one year and the buyer would get no warranty. My gauge was still in
warranty, but they would not fix it or refund the cost. They said they had
stopped making that model therefore they could not honor any warranty. I
talked to sales then the head honcho at Michell and got the same story from
both. Chief is fine to deal with ,but I'll never buy another Mitchell
product!


" jls" > wrote in message
...
> 1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
> warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless as the
> teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted. Their
> customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on hold
> and
> leave you there.
>
> 2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for
> handling
> the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your purchase
> contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.
>
> 3. Buyer beware: Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent an
> hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six and the
> needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
> before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one was
> rotten.
>
> 4. Buyer beware: buying something like this from Spruce if it is
> defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm like
> the
> devil to get out of paying your money back.
>
> 5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and
> bolts
> from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.
>
> And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter news
> editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft) announced
> that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum steel
> alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead
> received
> a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength of
> chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
>
> Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then another
> ...
>
>
>



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[Morgans]

"Dave Hyde" > wrote in message
...
> Plane Fun wrote...
>
> > I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
> > newsgroup.
> ...
> > Jim Irwin
> > President, Aircraft Spruce
>
> It clarified one for me. But just to make sure, I tried to search
> Aircraft Spruce's website for their privacy policy.
>
> "Sorry. Nothing matched your search for PRIVACY. Please try a
> different search.
>
> You won't be getting any personal information, or cash, from me.
>
> Dave 'CAFB' Hyde
>

Seems to me that Larry decided to air the dirty laundry in public, so it is
only fair that Aircraft Spruce reply in same.

This is in no way a show of support or rejection of the quality of the
service.
--
Jim (not an employee or yada, yada yada of ACS) in NC :-)

[Bob K.]

Earlier, Dave Hyde wrote:

> ...It clarified one for me. But
> just to make sure, I tried to search
> Aircraft Spruce's website for their
> privacy policy...

Interesting issue. I thought of that briefly, and then noted that Jim
(Irwin) carefully put double-quotes around "Larry" in his reponse. I
think that they'd only be breaching privacy if they use real names.

[Dave Hyde]

Bob K. wrote...

> think that they'd only be breaching privacy if they use real names.

It's not the first time he's done it and he has in the past used real
names.

Dave 'local but buying elsewhere' Hyde

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:40:14 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

>
Dear Latchless Larry, (aka, matchless larry)

You say you have a way to get it tested, which, if you do, it will
brand you for the brainless fool you are. Nobody is going to do it
for nothing, and you sure as hell aren't going to be able to pay for
it. **** anyone you want, just don't try to **** someone that's spent
45 years with metalworking as a profession. Your statement about mild
steel doesn't stand up to any, oh, hell, three month apprentice.
Maybe a little study of the properties of alloy steel might clear the
**** from between your ears, but there's only one chance in a million
of that happening, even less that you'll actually study. 4130 is a
water hardening steel, and doesn't harden worth a **** in even oil.
1018, the common hardware store stuff, how hard to you want it? No
problem. 1045, heat it up and let it air cool, you won't be strong
enough to drive a drill into it.

Methinks Latchless Larry is trying in vain to prove that he doesn't
have his mommy thinking for him all the time. Chalk up another
failure, something he should be used to by now.

Greybeard

[COLIN LAMB]

I wish to address the privacy issue. It appears that one or more people
feel that all of the transaction should be considered private and Aircraft
Spruce breached this right of privacy when it disclosed conversations
between a customer and Aircraft Spruce.

There is neither a common law nor a statutory right of privacy regarding the
conversations mentioned.

Certain financial information is protected by federal and or state law.
Similarly, most medical information is protected.

By custom, it would probably be considered in bad taste to discredit a
customer in public - unless that information is relevant to dispute harmful
claims made by a customer. In essence, truth is a defense.

For Aircraft Spruce, their reputation and integrity is their most valuable
asset and they have every right to protect and defend it in a public forum.
If that means making conversations with a customer public, after the
customer has given a different story, then it is proper to do so.

I am simply commenting on one of the issues raised. In regard to the
matters alleged, the reader will have to decide for themselves.

Colin N12HS


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[Greybeard]

On 1 Feb 2005 14:12:10 -0800, "Plane Fun" > wrote:

>Re: Aircraft Spruce
>
>Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
>junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
>in the situation.

Wouldn't worry about Latchless Larry, he's one of those people that
makes more sense when he farts than when he opens his mouth. Most
dogs know more than he ever will.

Greybeard

[jls]

"Dave Hyde" > wrote in message
...
> Plane Fun wrote...
>
> > I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
> > newsgroup.
> ...
> > Jim Irwin
> > President, Aircraft Spruce
>
> It clarified one for me. But just to make sure, I tried to search
> Aircraft Spruce's website for their privacy policy.
>
> "Sorry. Nothing matched your search for PRIVACY. Please try a
> different search.
>
> You won't be getting any personal information, or cash, from me.
>
> Dave 'CAFB' Hyde
>
>

ASS doesn't have a privacy policy, only an invasion of privacy policy.
Several months ago idiot Jim Irwin published the names and private
identities of two people here in RAH who had nothing to do with one of ASS's
numerous bad transactions.

It's a niche business. Sure the prices in many cases are cheaper than
Wicks, but I've learned my lesson. If I can't find it at Wicks, I'll look
anywhere but at ASS.

[jls]

"Bob K." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Earlier, Dave Hyde wrote:
>
> > ...It clarified one for me. But
> > just to make sure, I tried to search
> > Aircraft Spruce's website for their
> > privacy policy...
>
> Interesting issue. I thought of that briefly, and then noted that Jim
> (Irwin) carefully put double-quotes around "Larry" in his reponse. I
> think that they'd only be breaching privacy if they use real names.
>

If he were trying to protect privacy, why did he publish the names of
innocent parties to another of his soured transactions several months ago
right here in RAH? I know those two people. At least one of them despises
Irwin.

And is putting my real name in quotes supposed to protect my privacy?
<laughter>

[jls]

"Greybeard" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:40:14 -0500, " jls" >
> wrote:
>
> Greybeard

Whoever you are nameless nobody, a man of steel and tool and die making this
afternoon described very clearly how to differentiate between 4130 and mild
steel. I googled with "ferrous metals" and "spark test" and he's right.

Who gives a ****e what YOU think; you're just a nobody.

[Kyle Boatright]

>
> ASS doesn't have a privacy policy, only an invasion of privacy policy.
> Several months ago idiot Jim Irwin published the names and private
> identities of two people here in RAH who had nothing to do with one of
> ASS's
> numerous bad transactions.
>
> It's a niche business. Sure the prices in many cases are cheaper than
> Wicks, but I've learned my lesson. If I can't find it at Wicks, I'll look
> anywhere but at ASS.

Which (IMO) has zero relevance to this instance. This time, good 'ol Larry
threw mud in a public forum and it blew right back and smacked him in the
face when the facts came out. No privacy issue whatsoever...

[Mark Hickey]

"Plane Fun" > wrote:

>There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
>"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
>therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
>outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
>to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
>is insulting.

Sounds like such a claim could qualify for full-on libel (given the
potential for harming the business if potential customers were to
believe such a claim).

Mark "but don't even play a lawyer on TV" Hickey

[jls]

"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I wish to address the privacy issue. It appears that one or more people
> feel that all of the transaction should be considered private and Aircraft
> Spruce breached this right of privacy when it disclosed conversations
> between a customer and Aircraft Spruce.
>
> There is neither a common law nor a statutory right of privacy regarding
the
> conversations mentioned.

How would you know that unless you lived in California and practiced law
there? So I'm assuming you are and you do, and you will make corrections if
I'm wrong?

Be that as it may, Jim Irwin doesn't give a damn about anybody's privacy,
and in my case I don't mind anyway. I did mind that he divulged private
information and addresses of two acquaintances several months ago right here
in RAH, which also led others to comment on his sleaziness.


Divulging the contents of my conversations with his gravel-voiced viragos,
however, does present an issue with common law hearsay, which he uses with
such abandon to prove the content of conversations he could not have even
been a party to. In only one conversation, the first one with the first
virago, did I use vulgar language (a felony for sure!) and not even then
until after a series of insufferable provocations, the first of which was a
razor wire barrier communication system imported from a third world country
like Bangalore or Somalia; the second, being left on hold for almost an
hour, and the third, being interrupted time and time again while I was
trying to explain the reason for delay reporting that the junk Mitchell
Cylinder Head Temperature Gauge was defective right out of the box . If
you are talking to me and I keep cutting you off right in the middle of a
sentence, I can expect you to color and tell me to GFY.

So, in my book, Jim Irwin is a son of a bitch and his customer service is
right out of hell.

[John Ammeter]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:03:12 -0500, " jls"
> wrote:

>
>"Bob K." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Earlier, Dave Hyde wrote:
>>
>> > ...It clarified one for me. But
>> > just to make sure, I tried to search
>> > Aircraft Spruce's website for their
>> > privacy policy...
>>
>> Interesting issue. I thought of that briefly, and then noted that Jim
>> (Irwin) carefully put double-quotes around "Larry" in his reponse. I
>> think that they'd only be breaching privacy if they use real names.
>>
>
>If he were trying to protect privacy, why did he publish the names of
>innocent parties to another of his soured transactions several months ago
>right here in RAH? I know those two people. At least one of them despises
>Irwin.
>
>And is putting my real name in quotes supposed to protect my privacy?
><laughter>
>

Larry or JLS, whichever you prefer....

I'd probably be the last person to defend Aircraft Spruce
BUT I find it rediculous that you think you can denigrate
AS&S but they can't simply post the facts....

As far as your "privacy" is concerned.... you're the one
that started this post about the 4130 and the Mitchell
instruments. Irwin only came in to make a post stating "the
other side of the argument".

BTW, whatever happened "several months ago" has NO bearing
on this situation. If you want to bring up issues from the
past, well, Latchless Larry... you've got a LOT of history
on this board and none of its flattering to you...

John Ammeter

[jls]

"Mark Hickey" > wrote in message
...
> "Plane Fun" > wrote:
>
> >There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
> >"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
> >therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
> >outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
> >to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
> >is insulting.
>
> Sounds like such a claim could qualify for full-on libel (given the
> potential for harming the business if potential customers were to
> believe such a claim).
>
> Mark "but don't even play a lawyer on TV" Hickey

Let the sonofabitch sue for libel. I dare him to. I don't hurt his
reputation; he does. And if any of the angry Irwin toadies I have brought
out of the woodwork are to be believed I have HELPED Irwin's reputation.

If you want to know what so many people have said about Jim Irwin and
Aircraft Spruce, just do a Google Groups advanced search with the term,
"aircraft spruce." No offense to you, but that should get your case
rested, not to mention that truth is a defense.

Matter of fact, a few of the great volumes of complaints ought to be
published here, just to give an idea of the angry ridicule of Irwin's decade
of dark history in "customer service."

I never would have believed there were such torrents of hateful invective
against one man if I hadn't gone and looked just now. Take a look, if you
don't believe me. Irwin's fuXXed people from coast to coast and across the
pond. So don't believe a word I have said if you don't want to; the record
still damns him to customer relationships only with buffoons and masochists.

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:07:32 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Greybeard" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:40:14 -0500, " jls" >
>> wrote:
>>
> > Greybeard
>
>Whoever you are nameless nobody, a man of steel and tool and die making this
>afternoon described very clearly how to differentiate between 4130 and mild
>steel. I googled with "ferrous metals" and "spark test" and he's right.
>
>Who gives a ****e what YOU think; you're just a nobody.

Most tool and die people are. However spark test is only in the 30%
bracket for uncertainty, meaning 70% chance that you're going to be
wrong. But that's normal for you, although I think I should give you
another 20%, there's a 90% chance that you'd screw up.

If you go back and read it, spark testing is only for steels in a
given state, and you have no idea even where to start to find what
state your steel is in. Nor would you know the difference.

And by the way, when you take that chromoly into a lab, maybe checking
for chromium and molybdenum might be better choices. Possibly the
name of the steel gives away a little of it's composition. But what
would you care? You're not interested in truth, just in feeding your
fat head.

I may be a nobody, but you're a nobody that's making a fool out of
himself on this group, again, and again, and again, and,,,,

Have a nice day, clap drip.

Greybeard.
>

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:49:13 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

Blabber, Blabber, blabber blabber. Just shut the **** up, Latchless
larry. Everyone here knows you well enough to know that all of your
problems come from yourself. This isn't the first time you've been
accused of giving the people on the phone a blast of ****, but then,
that's all you have in your head. Jim Irwin isn't the problem,
Latchless larry is.

Greybeard

[jls]

"Plane Fun" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Re: Aircraft Spruce
>
> Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
> junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
> in the situation.
>
> Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
> yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
> demanded his money back.

Lying already, huh? The defective Mitchell CHT Gauge was purchased in June
and I notified you in July upon installing it that it was defective, right
out of the box. I took it out in July but could not find the invoice,
which one of your viragos said I would have to have in order to return it.
Luckily I found the invoice yesterday, misfiled in another folder.



The instruments is within its' year
> warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
> warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
> Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
> company to his news-group.

One vulgar word. A felony. I am overcome with guilt and shame for being
run around like a rat in a maze and finally becoming angry with your
gravel-voice virago when she repeatedly interrupted what I was courteously
trying to explain the delay.



He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
> verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
> would not deal with him in any way.

Odd. Their manager calmly asked me to return the gauge for repair and said
Spruce should have offered a refund, but having read enough about Mitchell's
bad reputation, I won't bother.


Our Customer Service manager,
> Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
> problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.

That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT gauge
in your ear.

> She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
> demands, at which time she terminated the conversation.

Lie, lie, and lie. Hearsay too. I used not one vulgar word with her.
When I told her I would accept nothing less than a refund she hung up.

Aircraft
> Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
> staff does not need to be abused.

No, you don't assist a customer, except when he pays his money; when it's
time for customer service after the sale, the customer can go to hell, so
far as you're concerned.

ntary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
> "mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
> therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
> outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
> to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
> is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
> been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
> sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
> are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
> be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
> this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
> furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
> anyone that needs them.

I'll have the plate assayed and file a report. If it's genuine, I'll admit
to it. That's better than I can say for your bogus customer service which
required a damn invoice just to return a defective CHT gauge when you could
have verified the purchase in your database. The damn thing is PMA'd too.
I want the FAA to know just what a piece of junk it is. Another purchaser
bought two and one of his was defective out of the box, and the other one he
says is not reliable.


Just for funsies, any of you, call the ACS number and see how long it takes
you to get to customer service. Try it; waste 30 minutes for fun, and then
get talked to like you're a cur by one of their obnoxious viragos.

First of all you will be in their banana republic system on the first number
you call before you learn after 10 or 15 minutes punching numbers 1through 6
that you should have called another number,and the latter number won't even
be available on your invoice.

These people are slick and oily. Have fun with them. Don't whine:
Think kindly of ol' Larry when they screw you.

[jls]

"NOBODY" > wrote in message nice day, clap drip.
>
> Greybeard.
> >
>

So you've had gonorrhea. What else is new? It went to your brain and ate
what little was there.

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:18:07 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:


>
>Lie, lie, and lie. Hearsay too.

That seems to be your only mode of operation.

Not surprising.

Greybeard
>

[Greybeard]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:23:45 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:


>>
>
>So you've had gonorrhea. What else is new? It went to your brain and ate
>what little was there.

I don't get your family diseases.

Greybeard
>

[RobertR237]

>
>Re: Aircraft Spruce
>
>Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
>junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
>in the situation.
>
>Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
>yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
>demanded his money back. The instruments is within its' year
>warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
>warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
>Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
>company to his news-group. He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
>verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
>would not deal with him in any way. Our Customer Service manager,
>Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
>problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
>She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
>demands, at which time she terminated the conversation. Aircraft
>Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
>staff does not need to be abused.
>
>There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
>"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
>therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
>outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
>to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
>is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
>been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
>sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
>are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
>be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
>this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
>furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
>anyone that needs them.
>
>I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
>newsgroup. If anyone would like further information or needs
>assistance please contact me directly at .
>Thanks to all of our valued customers for continued support.
>
>Jim Irwin
>President, Aircraft Spruce
>
>

Jim,

I wouldn't be too concerned with this character, we all know that anything he
complains about is likely of his own making.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[RobertR237]

>
>I wish to address the privacy issue. It appears that one or more people
>feel that all of the transaction should be considered private and Aircraft
>Spruce breached this right of privacy when it disclosed conversations
>between a customer and Aircraft Spruce.
>
>There is neither a common law nor a statutory right of privacy regarding the
>conversations mentioned.
>
>Certain financial information is protected by federal and or state law.
>Similarly, most medical information is protected.
>
>By custom, it would probably be considered in bad taste to discredit a
>customer in public - unless that information is relevant to dispute harmful
>claims made by a customer. In essence, truth is a defense.
>
>For Aircraft Spruce, their reputation and integrity is their most valuable
>asset and they have every right to protect and defend it in a public forum.
>If that means making conversations with a customer public, after the
>customer has given a different story, then it is proper to do so.
>
>I am simply commenting on one of the issues raised. In regard to the
>matters alleged, the reader will have to decide for themselves.
>
>Colin N12HS
>

You should have every right to respond in the same forum as was chosen by the
accuser. Latchless picked the playing field and you responded in the most
appropriate manner I can think of.



>
Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[B2431]

>From: " jls"
>Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
<snip>
>
> Our Customer Service manager,
>> Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
>> problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
>
>That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
>wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT gauge
>in your ear.
>


I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when the
error was mine.

Sounds like you have a people problem.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[RobertR237]

>
>>From: " jls"
>>Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
><snip>
>>
>> Our Customer Service manager,
>>> Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
>>> problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
>>
>>That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
>>wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT gauge
>>in your ear.
>>
>
>
>I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when
>the
>error was mine.
>
>Sounds like you have a people problem.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

Damn Dan, you are prone to understatements!


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

[......... :-\)\)]

The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....

If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability to
the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.

My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.

Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.


"Greybeard" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk >
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
> > wrote:
> >
> >> jls wrote:
> >>> So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
> >
> >>Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
> >>BTW I agree with everything you said.
> >
> >I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
> >that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
> >makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
> >sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
> >names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
> >40 thousand posts.
>
> My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
> determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
> anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
> there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
> that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
> tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
> stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
> until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
> going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
> things you can tell from "the way it works",
>
> "It's hard"
>
> "It's tough"
>
> "It's soft".
>
> Period.
>
> Greybeard
>

[......... :-\)\)]

BTW I am not accusing ACSS of anything just saying that without proper
documentation and a quality system that undergoes continuous external audits
there are simply no guarantee's and the simple facts are that you cannot be
sure what you have.

I have bought a lot of stuff from ACSS and I have never received paper work
that would qualify the parts for use on a certificated airplane. You simply
get an invoice listing parts, quantity and price.

ACSS is cheap but you only get what you pay for. If you want more assurances
about what you have bought then go to Avial or other supplies for the
industry and pay the premium. ACSS are homebuilders selling to homebuilders
....

This is not a comment on the quality of service (In my experience always
good) ... just about tracability of aircraft parts.



"......... :-))" > wrote in message
u...
> The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....
>
> If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
> supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability
to
> the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.
>
> My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
> mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
> they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.
>
> Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
> What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
> documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.
>
>
> "Greybeard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> jls wrote:
> > >>> So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.
> > >
> > >>Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
> > >>BTW I agree with everything you said.
> > >
> > >I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
> > >that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
> > >makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
> > >sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
> > >names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
> > >40 thousand posts.
> >
> > My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
> > determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
> > anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
> > there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
> > that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
> > tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
> > stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
> > until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
> > going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
> > things you can tell from "the way it works",
> >
> > "It's hard"
> >
> > "It's tough"
> >
> > "It's soft".
> >
> > Period.
> >
> > Greybeard
> >
>
>

[B2431]

>From: (RobertR237)
>Date: 2/1/2005 21:02 Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>
>>>From: " jls"
>>>Date: 2/1/2005 20:18 Central Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>><snip>
>>>
>>> Our Customer Service manager,
>>>> Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
>>>> problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
>>>
>>>That's the Carolyn who left me on hold 45 minutes yesterday while I sat
>>>wasting time and dawdling when I'd liked to have crammed that crap CHT
>gauge
>>>in your ear.
>>>
>>
>>
>>I have dealt with Carolyn, she's always been pleasant and helpful even when
>>the
>>error was mine.
>>
>>Sounds like you have a people problem.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>Damn Dan, you are prone to understatements!
>
>
>Bob Reed
>www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
>KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....
>

'scuse me, but I was NOT prone when I wrote that, I was sitting up.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Matt Whiting]

jls wrote:

> So, in my book, Jim Irwin is a son of a bitch and his customer service is
> right out of hell.

I take it you've been there recently to know? :-)

Matt

[Greybeard]

On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:07:19 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

> jls wrote:
>
>> So, in my book, Jim Irwin is a son of a bitch and his customer service is
>> right out of hell.
>
>I take it you've been there recently to know? :-)
>
That's where he lives, but it's of his own making.

Greybeard

[Bruce A. Frank]

If they continue to be so bad in your estimation, why do you continue to buy
there?

jls wrote:

> "Mark Hickey" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Plane Fun" > wrote:
> >
> > >There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
> > >"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
> > >therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
> > >outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
> > >to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
> > >is insulting.
> >
> > Sounds like such a claim could qualify for full-on libel (given the
> > potential for harming the business if potential customers were to
> > believe such a claim).
> >
> > Mark "but don't even play a lawyer on TV" Hickey
>
> Let the sonofabitch sue for libel. I dare him to. I don't hurt his
> reputation; he does. And if any of the angry Irwin toadies I have brought
> out of the woodwork are to be believed I have HELPED Irwin's reputation.
>
> If you want to know what so many people have said about Jim Irwin and
> Aircraft Spruce, just do a Google Groups advanced search with the term,
> "aircraft spruce." No offense to you, but that should get your case
> rested, not to mention that truth is a defense.
>
> Matter of fact, a few of the great volumes of complaints ought to be
> published here, just to give an idea of the angry ridicule of Irwin's decade
> of dark history in "customer service."
>
> I never would have believed there were such torrents of hateful invective
> against one man if I hadn't gone and looked just now. Take a look, if you
> don't believe me. Irwin's fuXXed people from coast to coast and across the
> pond. So don't believe a word I have said if you don't want to; the record
> still damns him to customer relationships only with buffoons and masochists.

--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|

[Dave Hyde]

COLIN LAMB wrote...

> There is neither a common law nor a statutory right of privacy regarding
the
> conversations mentioned.

Agreed.

> By custom, it would probably be considered in bad taste to discredit a
> customer in public - unless that information is relevant to dispute
harmful
> claims made by a customer. In essence, truth is a defense.

> For Aircraft Spruce, their reputation and integrity is their most valuable
> asset and they have every right to protect and defend it in a public
forum.
> If that means making conversations with a customer public, after the
> customer has given a different story, then it is proper to do so.

Take a look at the privacy policies of major retailers with an iternet
presence.
I happened to be looking at Home Depot and Radio Shack today:

RS:
"Information about you specifically will not be used for any purpose
other than to carry out the services you requested from RadioShack and
its affiliates. All of our affiliates have agreed to maintain the
security and confidentiality of the information we provide to them."

HD:
"We will maintain the confidentiality of all personal information
collected in our Stores, our Call Centers, our Sites and from our
Service Providers and will only disclose such information to
employees and Service Providers who require such information for
the purposes described in this Privacy and Security Statement."

Many other respected businesses have similar polices, these are just
the first two I happened to look for. Well, after AS&S, where I
found no such statement. In neither case above do they say
"We reserve the right to release personal information if the
customer jerks our chain."

I have little sympathy for either party in this case.

Dave 'puttin' on my votin' shoes' Hyde

[Jim351]

snip

This NG is full of whiners. I have been buying from ACS for a long time
and the few times I have had problems they have been resolved
professionally and to my satisfaction. This goes for a lot of people I
know too.
Keep up the good work.

jim A.