Buying Junk from Aircraft Spruce --- Or Putting Money Down a Rathole

1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless as the
teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted. Their
customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on hold and
leave you there.

2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for handling
the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your purchase
contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.

3. Buyer bewa Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent an
hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six and the
needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one was
rotten.

4. Buyer bewa buying something like this from Spruce if it is
defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm like the
devil to get out of paying your money back.

5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and bolts
from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.

And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter news
editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft) announced
that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum steel
alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead received
a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength of
chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then another ...

jls wrote:
+++++++

4. Buyer bewa buying something like this from Spruce if it is
defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm like the
devil to get out of paying your money back.

5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and bolts
from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.

And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter news
editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft) announced
that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum steel
alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead received
a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength of
chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then another ...



Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

Jim, if you're reading, you're welcome at my place anytime.

Latchless, you're welcome as well, but please give advance notice so
that I can set out some leg-hold traps and prepare a rat hole for you.

Wayne

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

Hello, nobody at nowhere.

We'll take a sample of it and have it tested at our local technical college,
just to be sure. If the plate has chromium or molybdenum in it we'll find
out with absolute certainty. If they can't do a spectrophotometry test,
we'll find somebody who can. I'll publish the results here. You can place
your bets now.

I have taken 4130 tube and heated it red hot then quenched it in cold water.
It is then brittle, but mild steel will remain soft enough to bend. That's
why when you weld 4130, you have to normalize the welds by heating them
cherry red, then allowing them to cool gradually at room temperature and no
drafts. You, being the nobody at nowhere of authority, correct me if I'm
wrong here.

BTW, how many steel tube and rag aircraft have you built?

The purchaser called Spruce to warn them and got an admission from Spruce
that they had substituted mild steel because 4130 was not available and that
they could never be sure, with the new supplier they had.

That was after the purchaser had tested the purchased steel against the same
thickness 4130 by pulling a sample of it with some hydraulic equipment and a
calibrated gauge he uses to do destructive testing. He said the bolt holes
began to elongate at 60% of the pull necessary to elongate the bolt hole on
the known sample of 4130, indicating that the unknown sample was NOT 4130.
That's proof enough for him and anybody else with good sense.

Nobody, you can draw whatever conclusion you wish, but here in our chapter
we have drawn a conclusion based on sound evidence from a respected aircraft
builder and airframe and powerplant mechanic. Since the purchaser bought
the steel plate to be 4130 for wing attach fittings on a cantilever wing,
any knowledgeable people who read this could understand why he wrote Spruce
a letter and told them that substituting mild steel for 4130 (which is
exactly what they did) is dangerous.

Naturally he never got an answer. Naturally he won't be using that steel
plate for wing attach fittings. Naturally, as he just said over the phone
awhile ago, he won't be buying anything else from Aircraft Spruce. And
naturally, unscrupulous people who pollute the aircraft builder's market and
their toadies won't have much of anything reasonable to say.

As I said before, now having had yet another sour experience with Aircraft
Spruce, buyer beware!

jls wrote:

I have taken 4130 tube and heated it red hot then quenched it in cold
water.
It is then brittle, but mild steel will remain soft enough to bend.
That's
why when you weld 4130, you have to normalize the welds by heating
them
cherry red, then allowing them to cool gradually at room temperature
and no
drafts. You, being the nobody at nowhere of authority, correct me
if I'm
wrong here.


Earlier you wrote that ACS had substituted soft carbon steel for 4130.
Quenching high carbon steel makes it brittle and hard.

--

FF

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:40:14 -0500, " jls"
wrote:


Dear Latchless Larry, (aka, matchless larry)

You say you have a way to get it tested, which, if you do, it will
brand you for the brainless fool you are. Nobody is going to do it
for nothing, and you sure as hell aren't going to be able to pay for
it. **** anyone you want, just don't try to **** someone that's spent
45 years with metalworking as a profession. Your statement about mild
steel doesn't stand up to any, oh, hell, three month apprentice.
Maybe a little study of the properties of alloy steel might clear the
**** from between your ears, but there's only one chance in a million
of that happening, even less that you'll actually study. 4130 is a
water hardening steel, and doesn't harden worth a **** in even oil.
1018, the common hardware store stuff, how hard to you want it? No
problem. 1045, heat it up and let it air cool, you won't be strong
enough to drive a drill into it.

Methinks Latchless Larry is trying in vain to prove that he doesn't
have his mommy thinking for him all the time. Chalk up another
failure, something he should be used to by now.

Greybeard

The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....

If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability to
the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.

My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.

Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.


"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

BTW I am not accusing ACSS of anything just saying that without proper
documentation and a quality system that undergoes continuous external audits
there are simply no guarantee's and the simple facts are that you cannot be
sure what you have.

I have bought a lot of stuff from ACSS and I have never received paper work
that would qualify the parts for use on a certificated airplane. You simply
get an invoice listing parts, quantity and price.

ACSS is cheap but you only get what you pay for. If you want more assurances
about what you have bought then go to Avial or other supplies for the
industry and pay the premium. ACSS are homebuilders selling to homebuilders
....

This is not a comment on the quality of service (In my experience always
good) ... just about tracability of aircraft parts.



"......... :-))" wrote in message
u...
The problem with ACSS is that they are amateurs selling to amateurs ....

If they were a real aircraft parts and materials supply company they would
supply the material with certificates of compliance providing tracability
to
the source. There would be no doubt about what they supplied.

My guess is that the metal had no mill stamps and hence was assumed to be
mild steel ... in fact it could well have been anything but I don't think
they knew whether of not it was 4130 or mild steel.

Few people in the real aircraft industry would deal with aircraft spruce.
What they are selling could well amount to bogus parts without the proper
documentation. Who knows where the stuff comes from or what it really is.


"Greybeard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:28 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:48:54 -0800, Jerry Springer
wrote:

jls wrote:
So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Now watch Jim pop up here. LOL
BTW I agree with everything you said.

I don't. ACS has been around too long to be the "shady characters"
that Latchless Larry would have us believe. Check the archives, he
makes a habit of dumping on vendors for perceived slights. But make
sure you have a comfortable chair, because last I looked under the two
names he uses here (Larry Smith and jls), the total was something like
40 thousand posts.

My chuckle, it would be interesting to know by what method they
determined that it was "cheap carbon steel" rather than 41XX or
anything else. The only way to know is laboratory analysis, and
there's only a .0001% chance that anyone has done that before posting
that they got something else. The chances of anyone being able to
tell from "the way it works" are zero, other bull**** explanations
stand for nothing. 4130,4140, 4150, and 1045 all work about the same
until they're hardened, then the differences show up, but you're not
going to do much with them after they're hardened. There are three
things you can tell from "the way it works",

"It's hard"

"It's tough"

"It's soft".

Period.

Greybeard

Aircraft Spruce

Many of your read the comments posted by "Larry" regarding "buying
junk from Aircraft Spruce", and it is important that we state the facts
in the situation.

Larry purchased this Mitchell instruments some 8 months ago, and
yesterday called to report that the instrument was defective and
demanded his money back. The instruments is within its' year
warranty so we offered to bring it back and have it repaired under
warranty for him. Larry then proceeded to give our girl in Customer
Service a large dose of profanity along with threats to blast our
company to his news-group. He also spoke with Mitchell directly and
verbally abused them as well, at which time they advised us tat they
would not deal with him in any way. Our Customer Service manager,
Carolyn Leon (who is wonderful with our customers and can solve any
problem a customer may have) then called Larry to see what she can do.
She was greeted with another long string of profanity and unreasonable
demands, at which time she terminated the conversation. Aircraft
Spruce will always do whatever we can to assist a customer, but my
staff does not need to be abused.

There was also come commentary about Aircraft Spruce substituting
"mild steel" sheet in place of 4130 steel sheet, and that we were
therefore "unscrupulous" people. Aircraft Spruce has an
outstanding reputation for quality products over the past 40 years, and
to suggest that we would intentionally substitute sub-standard material
is insulting. The fact is that several sizes of 4130 sheet has not
been available for Normalized (N) Condition in about a year, and these
sizes are only available in Annealed (A) condition. Until these sizes
are again produced by a mill in (N) condition, annealed material will
be provided by ourselves and many other suppliers. We clearly state
this in our current catalog and on our website. All the 4130 sheet we
furnish is indeed 4130, and we have full test reports on file for
anyone that needs them.

I hope this information above clarifies these two issues for the
newsgroup. If anyone would like further information or needs
assistance please contact me directly at .
Thanks to all of our valued customers for continued support.

Jim Irwin
President, Aircraft Spruce

jls wrote:
1. If you buy something defective from ACS, watch out. That 1-year
warranty on a Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge is worthless
as the
teats on a boar hog. Run-around time today: 45 minutes wasted.
Their
customer service manager, Carolyn Lyon, in Atlanta will put you on
hold and
leave you there.

2. Their alternative trick is to send you to the manufacturer for
handling
the piece of junk you've paid good folding money for. But your
purchase
contract is not with the manufacturer; it's with Aircraft Spruce.

3. Buyer bewa Mitchell cylinder head temperature gauge. I spent
an
hour installing it to monitor one new Superior cylinder out of six
and the
needle wouldn't even rise off the peg. And yes, I've installed these
before, quite a few of them. Some are good, some rotten. This one
was
rotten.

4. Buyer bewa buying something like this from Spruce if it is
defective is like putting money down a rathole. They will squirm
like the
devil to get out of paying your money back.

5. If you're tempted to buy anything more complicated than nuts and
bolts
from Spruce, don't say you weren't warned when you get screwed.

And by the way, at our chapter breakfast last Saturday, our chapter
news
editor, good friend, and A&P (who is building his 4th aircraft)
announced
that he recently ordered 4130 steel plate (that's chrome molybdenum
steel
alloy) from Aircraft Spruce as shown in their catalog, and instead
received
a crappy plate of soft carbon steel, with 60% of the bearing strength
of
chromoly. So don't just take it from me these are shady characters.

Then another dissatisfied customer popped up at the table, then
another ...