Garmin 396 Glitch??

[Jeff B]

Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
so its not some GPS system glitch.

I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new upgrade
on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes address
any "loss of signal" problems.

Any similar experiences out there???

Thanks!!!

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article . com>,
"Jeff B" > wrote:
> Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
> new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
> or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
> view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
> so its not some GPS system glitch.


I've been using the 396 for almost 2 months, and I haven't had a loss of
GPS signal in flight EXCEPT when I was using the "stick" GPS antenna on
the unit. Since I switched to the external patch antenna, I've had no
problems. However, I have continuously updated the software, so I would
recommend that you update to the latest software (v2.60) and try again.

I seem to recall that the 296 had a similar issue when it was new, and
that successive software updates eventually fixed it. I would be
surprised if that same issue exists in the 396 with current software.



JKG

[Aluckyguess]

I used to get that problem with the stick antenna flying north. I started
using the other antenna and the problem went away.
"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> "Jeff B" > wrote:
>> Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
>> new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
>> several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
>> or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
>> view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
>> so its not some GPS system glitch.
>
>
> I've been using the 396 for almost 2 months, and I haven't had a loss of
> GPS signal in flight EXCEPT when I was using the "stick" GPS antenna on
> the unit. Since I switched to the external patch antenna, I've had no
> problems. However, I have continuously updated the software, so I would
> recommend that you update to the latest software (v2.60) and try again.
>
> I seem to recall that the 296 had a similar issue when it was new, and
> that successive software updates eventually fixed it. I would be
> surprised if that same issue exists in the 396 with current software.
>
>
>
> JKG

[Dan Luke]

"Jeff B" wrote:

> Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
> new 396??

Nope. I've made a half dozen flights with the 396 with no problems.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[JB]

Hmmm...my problems occur WITH the external antenna (suction cup mount).

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article . com>,
"JB" > wrote:
> Hmmm...my problems occur WITH the external antenna (suction cup mount).

Perhaps you have a bad antenna? Might want to give Garmin a call and
see what they say, but they are going to want to start troubleshooting
from the latest software.



JKG

[Dan Luke]

"JB" wrote:

> Hmmm...my problems occur WITH the external antenna (suction cup
> mount).

I use the external antenna, too.

Maybe it's interference from one of your radios. I've replaced two
Cessna ARC-385s because they messed up my GPS reception.

Or it might be your antenna, as Jonathan suggested. I had one develop
an intermittent open circuit in the cable where it entered the antenna.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Maule Driver]

No loss of signal... but I just sent my 396 in for service.

Long story short -it would just stop working for no apparent reason.
Screen would go black. Only way to restart was with a battery re-insert.

The only apparent pattern it that it would never happen in the a/c.
Only on the ground. Swapped everything except for the stick attenna
which I used 100% on the ground and 0% in air.

So back it goes for repair.

Jeff B wrote:
> Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
> new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
> or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
> view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
> so its not some GPS system glitch.
>
> I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new upgrade
> on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes address
> any "loss of signal" problems.
>
> Any similar experiences out there???
>
> Thanks!!!
>

[Jon Woellhaf]

"Maule Driver" wrote, "... So back it goes for repair."

Please let us know how it behaves after the repair and what, if anything,
they said was wrong with it.

Jon

[Mike Noel]

I had a similar problem with my 296 except that is would turn itself off in
the air. I sent it in and Garmin ended up calling it corrupted user data.
After they purged the stored data, it worked OK for a while. When it
started doing it again the Garmin tech had me clear the data by removing
and re-inserting the battery, then holding down three buttons to give it a
lobotomy.

It's working OK for now, but I suspect I will have to kill the user data
again sometime to re-fix it.



"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
. com...
> No loss of signal... but I just sent my 396 in for service.
>
> Long story short -it would just stop working for no apparent reason.
> Screen would go black. Only way to restart was with a battery re-insert.
>
> The only apparent pattern it that it would never happen in the a/c.
> Only on the ground. Swapped everything except for the stick attenna
> which I used 100% on the ground and 0% in air.
>
> So back it goes for repair.
>
> Jeff B wrote:
> > Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
> > new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> > several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
> > or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
> > view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
> > so its not some GPS system glitch.
> >
> > I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new upgrade
> > on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes address
> > any "loss of signal" problems.
> >
> > Any similar experiences out there???
> >
> > Thanks!!!
> >

[Chris Quaintance]

I had never had a problem until this weekend when I was out on a
joyride with a friend. My 296 lost signal twice withing minutes. The
first time, I just double checked the anntena connection and it seemed
to come back (this is the suction-cup antenna). The second time, I did
the same thing again, no joy. Waited a bit, and then realized that the
excess cable from the antenna was balled up in and around my headset
cord. I picked it all up and shoved it on the dash and the signal came
back immediately. It didn't drop for the remaining 45 minutes.

Some sort of interference?

-ccq

[Alexandros]

I have a GPS 296 recently bought - August 2005.
Its problem is that occasionaly does not power on - while is working
with battery - and needs to take out and re-insert the battery. I
emailed Garmin but no answer yet...

Any suggestions?

Mike Noel wrote:
> I had a similar problem with my 296 except that is would turn itself off in
> the air. I sent it in and Garmin ended up calling it corrupted user data.
> After they purged the stored data, it worked OK for a while. When it
> started doing it again the Garmin tech had me clear the data by removing
> and re-inserting the battery, then holding down three buttons to give it a
> lobotomy.
>
> It's working OK for now, but I suspect I will have to kill the user data
> again sometime to re-fix it.
>
>
>
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > No loss of signal... but I just sent my 396 in for service.
> >
> > Long story short -it would just stop working for no apparent reason.
> > Screen would go black. Only way to restart was with a battery re-insert.
> >
> > The only apparent pattern it that it would never happen in the a/c.
> > Only on the ground. Swapped everything except for the stick attenna
> > which I used 100% on the ground and 0% in air.
> >
> > So back it goes for repair.
> >
> > Jeff B wrote:
> > > Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with their
> > > new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> > > several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups may
> > > or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in plain
> > > view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works fine
> > > so its not some GPS system glitch.
> > >
> > > I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new upgrade
> > > on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes address
> > > any "loss of signal" problems.
> > >
> > > Any similar experiences out there???
> > >
> > > Thanks!!!
> > >

[Mike Noel]

The first thing they will have you do is upgrade the software, so you might
as well do that first. Then,if the problem persists (and it probably will),
call them on the phone. The email route takes too long.

--
Mike Noel,
Tucson, Arizona

'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction.'

-Blaise Pascal
"Alexandros" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I have a GPS 296 recently bought - August 2005.
> Its problem is that occasionaly does not power on - while is working
> with battery - and needs to take out and re-insert the battery. I
> emailed Garmin but no answer yet...
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Mike Noel wrote:
> > I had a similar problem with my 296 except that is would turn itself off
in
> > the air. I sent it in and Garmin ended up calling it corrupted user
data.
> > After they purged the stored data, it worked OK for a while. When it
> > started doing it again the Garmin tech had me clear the data by
removing
> > and re-inserting the battery, then holding down three buttons to give it
a
> > lobotomy.
> >
> > It's working OK for now, but I suspect I will have to kill the user data
> > again sometime to re-fix it.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > > No loss of signal... but I just sent my 396 in for service.
> > >
> > > Long story short -it would just stop working for no apparent reason.
> > > Screen would go black. Only way to restart was with a battery
re-insert.
> > >
> > > The only apparent pattern it that it would never happen in the a/c.
> > > Only on the ground. Swapped everything except for the stick attenna
> > > which I used 100% on the ground and 0% in air.
> > >
> > > So back it goes for repair.
> > >
> > > Jeff B wrote:
> > > > Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with
their
> > > > new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> > > > several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups
may
> > > > or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in
plain
> > > > view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works
fine
> > > > so its not some GPS system glitch.
> > > >
> > > > I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new
upgrade
> > > > on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes
address
> > > > any "loss of signal" problems.
> > > >
> > > > Any similar experiences out there???
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!!!
> > > >
>

[Alexandros]

I have upgraded... to 3.70 (latest) and I have hard reset it too...
I monitor its behaviour till the end of the week, and lt you know!

The email still flows..... :(

Thanx anyway!


Mike Noel wrote:
> The first thing they will have you do is upgrade the software, so you might
> as well do that first. Then,if the problem persists (and it probably will),
> call them on the phone. The email route takes too long.
>
> --
> Mike Noel,
> Tucson, Arizona
>
> 'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
> religious conviction.'
>
> -Blaise Pascal
> "Alexandros" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I have a GPS 296 recently bought - August 2005.
> > Its problem is that occasionaly does not power on - while is working
> > with battery - and needs to take out and re-insert the battery. I
> > emailed Garmin but no answer yet...
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Mike Noel wrote:
> > > I had a similar problem with my 296 except that is would turn itself off
> in
> > > the air. I sent it in and Garmin ended up calling it corrupted user
> data.
> > > After they purged the stored data, it worked OK for a while. When it
> > > started doing it again the Garmin tech had me clear the data by
> removing
> > > and re-inserting the battery, then holding down three buttons to give it
> a
> > > lobotomy.
> > >
> > > It's working OK for now, but I suspect I will have to kill the user data
> > > again sometime to re-fix it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> > > . com...
> > > > No loss of signal... but I just sent my 396 in for service.
> > > >
> > > > Long story short -it would just stop working for no apparent reason.
> > > > Screen would go black. Only way to restart was with a battery
> re-insert.
> > > >
> > > > The only apparent pattern it that it would never happen in the a/c.
> > > > Only on the ground. Swapped everything except for the stick attenna
> > > > which I used 100% on the ground and 0% in air.
> > > >
> > > > So back it goes for repair.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff B wrote:
> > > > > Has anyone experienced significant "loss of signal" hiccups with
> their
> > > > > new 396?? Since getting ours a few months ago, we have had
> > > > > several...some lasting 15-20 minutes. System shutdowns/start ups
> may
> > > > > or may not re-initialize it. THe antenna is unobstructed and in
> plain
> > > > > view of the sky. An older Garmin is still in our plane and works
> fine
> > > > > so its not some GPS system glitch.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've thought about re-installing the software. There is a new
> upgrade
> > > > > on the Garmin site so it wouldn't hurt, but none of the fixes
> address
> > > > > any "loss of signal" problems.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any similar experiences out there???
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks!!!
> > > > >
> >

[hughes]

I had the same problem with my 296, Garmin released a pacth that fixed
this problem up; I guess they'll do the same for the 396; I am
considering buying one, if anybody knows where to get a good trade-in
deal 296/396 please let me know
Thks
Hughes

[Alexandros]

Hi Hughes - Mine is rhe 296 also! can you assist me how to find the
patch for me too?

[janice]

http://www.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00356-00
"Alexandros" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Hughes - Mine is rhe 296 also! can you assist me how to find the
> patch for me too?
>

[Alexandros]

Hello Janice! I already have 3.70 version and the problem exists!

[janice]

Contact Garmin, they'll trouble shoot with you.


"Alexandros" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Hughes - Mine is rhe 296 also! can you assist me how to find the
> patch for me too?
>

[Alexandros]

I hope so :)
I have emailed them and waiting....

[Maule Driver]

Alexandros wrote:
> I hope so :)
> I have emailed them and waiting....
>
Call them to reduce time. My 396 had 'the problem' (I think it was the
beginning of this thread). The troubleshooting consisted of getting the
most recent software on (3.70), determining whether the failure occured
with/without the various components (attenna, power). The problem
occurred repeatedly.

Once we determined that nothing could be determined, I sent it back and
it was returned. Problem - "Main processor making poor contact with CPU
board. Resoldered processor". They also replaced XM attenna.

They had it in their hands for <3 days.

Seems to work. I'm happy.

Good Luck, I'm back to playing with this very neat machine.

[Alexandros]

Hi Maule Driver!

Thanx a lot! Just to be sure my problem is that very often I try to
start the device (while on battery) and even If I hear the beep sound,
the device does not start!
I have to take the the battery out and re-insert it to start.

!!!

[Dan Luke]

"Alexandros" wrote:

> Thanx a lot! Just to be sure my problem is that very often I try to
> start the device (while on battery) and even If I hear the beep sound,
> the device does not start!
> I have to take the the battery out and re-insert it to start.

Try disabling the battery saver feature.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Alexandros]

Hm...

Let's see if Dan is right! Good idea ... I let you know :)

[Maule Driver]

Well, they didn't fix my 396. The problem reoccurred with a vengence on
Saturday while driving. Stupidly, we were entirely dependent on it for
directions. The thing must have failed over a half dozen times.

Problem symptom: The unit would just shut down without warning. It
would not start up without removing the battery, waiting a few seconds,
re-inserting and restarting.

History: I called Garmin. They suggested loading the most recent SW.
When the problem re-occurred, we collaborated on the phone then they
told me to just send it in.

The 'Repair Summary' indicated that 1) the main processor was making
poor contact with CPU board - resoldered processor, 2) replacement of
GX30 Sat attenna.

Upon return, the problem reoccured.

I called Garmin. The technician noted that the one thing that hadn't
been done yet was to 'reset' the unit. A certain combination of buttons
and presto - reset. Why didn't we just do that in the first place? No
idea. Why isn't it documented in the manual? No idea.

Problem hasn't reoccurred yet. Seems fixed.

Question is, "Why didn't Garmin Support have me reset it in the first
place?". A deficient problem determination process perhaps? Less than
well trained support staff? I don't know but the fact that a simple
procedure was available that *may* have fixed it ****es me off. And
cost me $$$ and time.

Whatever. It cost me shipping and a week or so without the unit. For
no good reason other than some SW flakiness combined with lackluster
support. Fantastic machine nonetheless.

[tvnav.com]

Your dealer should have suggested a reset. Other than a couple of times
when I forgot, that is about the first thing I suggest when there is a
problem with a GPS. I can't tell you why Garmin didn't suggest a reset.
--


Darrel Goheen

http://www.tvnav.com




"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> Well, they didn't fix my 396. The problem reoccurred with a vengence on
> Saturday while driving. Stupidly, we were entirely dependent on it for
> directions. The thing must have failed over a half dozen times.
>
> Problem symptom: The unit would just shut down without warning. It would
> not start up without removing the battery, waiting a few seconds,
> re-inserting and restarting.
>
> History: I called Garmin. They suggested loading the most recent SW. When
> the problem re-occurred, we collaborated on the phone then they told me to
> just send it in.
>
> The 'Repair Summary' indicated that 1) the main processor was making poor
> contact with CPU board - resoldered processor, 2) replacement of GX30 Sat
> attenna.
>
> Upon return, the problem reoccured.
>
> I called Garmin. The technician noted that the one thing that hadn't been
> done yet was to 'reset' the unit. A certain combination of buttons and
> presto - reset. Why didn't we just do that in the first place? No idea.
> Why isn't it documented in the manual? No idea.
>
> Problem hasn't reoccurred yet. Seems fixed.
>
> Question is, "Why didn't Garmin Support have me reset it in the first
> place?". A deficient problem determination process perhaps? Less than
> well trained support staff? I don't know but the fact that a simple
> procedure was available that *may* have fixed it ****es me off. And cost
> me $$$ and time.
>
> Whatever. It cost me shipping and a week or so without the unit. For no
> good reason other than some SW flakiness combined with lackluster support.
> Fantastic machine nonetheless.

[Leonard Ellis]

Please post the secret incantation of button sequencing for the rest of us
in the event we need it.

Thanks,
Leonard Ellis (Garmin 295 owner)


"tvnav.com" > wrote in message
...
> Your dealer should have suggested a reset. Other than a couple of
times
> when I forgot, that is about the first thing I suggest when there is a
> problem with a GPS. I can't tell you why Garmin didn't suggest a reset.
....snip...

[tvnav.com]

The reset sequences are not secret and they vary from unit to unit.
--


Darrel Goheen

http://www.tvnav.com




"Leonard Ellis" > wrote in message
...
> Please post the secret incantation of button sequencing for the rest of us
> in the event we need it.
>
> Thanks,
> Leonard Ellis (Garmin 295 owner)
>
>
> "tvnav.com" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Your dealer should have suggested a reset. Other than a couple of
> times
>> when I forgot, that is about the first thing I suggest when there is a
>> problem with a GPS. I can't tell you why Garmin didn't suggest a reset.
> ...snip...
>
>

[Alexandros]

Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,

I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
But still no luck :(

It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
devices (when they have no problems)....

I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...

[tvnav.com]

"Alexandros" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,
>
> I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
> But still no luck :(
>
> It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
> devices (when they have no problems)....
>
> I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...

Like what?? AFAIK there is no other brand that competes with the 396.
--


Darrel Goheen

http://www.tvnav.com

[Newps]

Stick around, within 2 and at most 3 years the 396 will be obsolete.
ADS-B right now works on the East coast from New Jersey to Florida and
in a few other places. The momentum is just starting to pick up.
Several companies, Garmin among them, have announced they will be
bringing to market these new products. The weather that will be offered
won't be quite as extensive as XM's but it will be free. You will also
be able to display traffic, also for free.

tvnav.com wrote:

> "Alexandros" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,
>>
>>I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
>>But still no luck :(
>>
>>It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
>>devices (when they have no problems)....
>>
>>I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...
>
>
> Like what?? AFAIK there is no other brand that competes with the 396.

[cwby-flyer]

No competition? How about the PDA systems? I use AnywhereMap with the
XM weather and it works great. Albeit, it does take a bit more effort
to route cables and integrate the pieces, but its cheaper to own and I
don't have to swap out the entire unit when the newest feature set is
available.

Mike.

[Maule Driver]

Try a reset. I didn't record the procedure for the 396 but I think you
have a 2xx anyway. A quick call to the support line should result in
the correct procedure.

Alexandros wrote:
> Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,
>
> I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
> But still no luck :(
>
> It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
> devices (when they have no problems)....
>
> I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...
>

[Maule Driver]

I would agree... 2-3 years should lead to obselescence. Except that
Garmin really hit an aviation sweet spot with this one. Surely there
will be competitors (turn-key fully integrated GPS/Weather systems) with
advantages over the 396 but I'm guessing that the 396 will still be a
fine machine in 2 - 3 years. We'll see.

My first few experiences blew me away.
Newps wrote:
> Stick around, within 2 and at most 3 years the 396 will be obsolete.
> ADS-B right now works on the East coast from New Jersey to Florida and
> in a few other places. The momentum is just starting to pick up.
> Several companies, Garmin among them, have announced they will be
> bringing to market these new products. The weather that will be offered
> won't be quite as extensive as XM's but it will be free. You will also
> be able to display traffic, also for free.
>
> tvnav.com wrote:
>
>> "Alexandros" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>> Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,
>>>
>>> I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
>>> But still no luck :(
>>>
>>> It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
>>> devices (when they have no problems)....
>>>
>>> I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...
>>
>>
>>
>> Like what?? AFAIK there is no other brand that competes with the 396.

[tvnav.com]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> Stick around, within 2 and at most 3 years the 396 will be obsolete.

I don't know if it will be obsolete or what your definition of obsolete
is but I'm sure Garmin will have a better unit than the 396 by then.
--


Darrel Goheen

http://www.tvnav.com

[Alexandros]

Regarding Garmin Support:

I must admit that have to recall my posting 'It seems their support in
not at the same level of quality like their devices (when they have no
problems).... ', since I have been contacted and offered superior
service lately.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article . com>,
"cwby-flyer" > wrote:
> No competition? How about the PDA systems? I use AnywhereMap with the
> XM weather and it works great. Albeit, it does take a bit more effort
> to route cables and integrate the pieces, but its cheaper to own and I
> don't have to swap out the entire unit when the newest feature set is
> available.

As a former AnywhereMap owner, I can tell you that the weather display
is decent, but that's about where the honeymoon ends. Control Vision
does have some innovative products and capabilities, but Garmin has
outclassed them by a wide margin when it comes to weather display and
GPS navigation in a portable system.

I really did like traveling with the iPaq, but the poor quality control
of Control Vision's software and databases, combined with their arrogant
attitude, forced me to ditch the system in favor of the Garmin 396.



JKG

[Dave]

Well the service I get on the Lowrance units is tops.. (from lowrance
Canada anyway.)

We have a 200C and love it..

....waiting for the terrain DB.. available now on a 512 ssd.
They recommended we wait 3 wks when they will have it in a 1G ssd,
more room for the maps...

We have flown ours a lot lately, forced ourselves to learn and
use all the features.. it has met all our expectations...

The 396 is nice, but too small a screen for me.. (old eyes)

YMMV!

Dave



On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 11:17:52 -0600, "tvnav.com" > wrote:

>
>"Alexandros" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Hello to all - especially Dan Luke,
>>
>> I had already my battery to normal and not saver mode....
>> But still no luck :(
>>
>> It seems their support in not at the same level of quality like their
>> devices (when they have no problems)....
>>
>> I am thinking to get rid of the device and choose another brand...
>
> Like what?? AFAIK there is no other brand that competes with the 396.

[Newps]

Maule Driver wrote:
> I would agree... 2-3 years should lead to obselescence. Except that
> Garmin really hit an aviation sweet spot with this one. Surely there
> will be competitors (turn-key fully integrated GPS/Weather systems) with
> advantages over the 396 but I'm guessing that the 396 will still be a
> fine machine in 2 - 3 years. We'll see.

What will make it obsolete is having to pay for weather. Take away the
XM and you have a 296.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:
> > I would agree... 2-3 years should lead to obselescence. Except that
> > Garmin really hit an aviation sweet spot with this one. Surely there
> > will be competitors (turn-key fully integrated GPS/Weather systems) with
> > advantages over the 396 but I'm guessing that the 396 will still be a
> > fine machine in 2 - 3 years. We'll see.
>
> What will make it obsolete is having to pay for weather. Take away the
> XM and you have a 296.


I'm not sure what ADS-B provides as far as weather, but the XM service
is pretty comprehensive--I doubt that ADS-B will provide all of the same
information.

In addition, ADS-B doesn't provide an entertainment services like XM
radio, for those who might use it.

I'm not sure how ADS-B is delivered, but my guess is that it won't be as
portable or versatile as the XM service.

The bottom line is that the 396 and XM weather service will probably
continue to be very useful even after ADS-B is fully deployed, whenever
that may be.



JKG

[Maule Driver]

I have to say that I'm glad you've had that experience.

Dispite my frustration over the box crapping out on me and wasting time
getting the issue resolved, Garmin service, in retrospect, was good. I
called, they answered, limited wait time, a seemingly knowledgeable
person all 3 times (despite the fact that they didn't direct me
optimally). Heck, if you can call someone, get the call answered, and
'level 1' support is doing more than reading a script, that's pretty good.

Support isn't easy, zero defect SW isn't easy either. Making a 'wow'
product is priceless.

Can't wait for some more bad weather to circumvent.

Alexandros wrote:
> Regarding Garmin Support:
>
> I must admit that have to recall my posting 'It seems their support in
> not at the same level of quality like their devices (when they have no
> problems).... ', since I have been contacted and offered superior
> service lately.
>

[Newps]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

>
>
> I'm not sure what ADS-B provides as far as weather, but the XM service
> is pretty comprehensive--I doubt that ADS-B will provide all of the same
> information.

You're right, XM provides more, but not $30 more per month, much less $50.


>
> In addition, ADS-B doesn't provide an entertainment services like XM
> radio, for those who might use it.

I have an XM radio in my plane now. Although XM in the 396 works it is
a secondary function and as such is not all that convenient to use.


>
> I'm not sure how ADS-B is delivered, but my guess is that it won't be as
> portable or versatile as the XM service.

It will be delivered by many hundreds of ground transmitters and will be
available in handhelds like the 396 as well as PDA's. Versatility is up
to the software designers. I would expect it to be the same as the 396.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:
> > I'm not sure what ADS-B provides as far as weather, but the XM service
> > is pretty comprehensive--I doubt that ADS-B will provide all of the same
> > information.
>
> You're right, XM provides more, but not $30 more per month, much less $50.

Not sure that I agree with your assessment. I subscribe to the $50 XM
option and have found almost every element provided to be very useful.
Not to mention that Baron seems to do a decent job with data quality--I
wonder where the data from ADS-B comes from.

I just don't understand the whining that I hear everywhere about the
cost of XM weather. In an era where folks pay close to $100/month for
cable television, give a cell phone to every pre-teen in their
household, and drive huge SUVs, I can't understand where the pain of
paying $30-$50/month for weather uplink is coming from. It's not for
everyone, but frequent flyers can certainly benefit from it.



> > In addition, ADS-B doesn't provide an entertainment services like XM
> > radio, for those who might use it.
>
> I have an XM radio in my plane now. Although XM in the 396 works it is
> a secondary function and as such is not all that convenient to use.

Actually, I think it's pretty intuitive. Garmin did a good job with the
integration, though it's not quite as convenient for things like channel
selection. But it is a nice, integrated package that works well.



> > I'm not sure how ADS-B is delivered, but my guess is that it won't be as
> > portable or versatile as the XM service.
>
> It will be delivered by many hundreds of ground transmitters and will be
> available in handhelds like the 396 as well as PDA's. Versatility is up
> to the software designers. I would expect it to be the same as the 396.

Until those "hundreds of transmitters" are live and active, ADS-B is
pretty much moot. I doubt in 2-3 years we will see widespread ADS-B
available as we have XM available today. And, I wonder what happens to
your data if you're out of range of a transmitter?

The bottom line is that I firmly believe that there will be a strong
market for XM weather for a long time to come. I suspect that Baron/XM
will provide more, better quality information, that some folks will
always be willing to pay for. Once the ADS-B system is live and the
receivers have had time to mature, I'm sure that it will be a great
system, but that all isn't going to happen overnight.



JKG

[George Patterson]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> I just don't understand the whining that I hear everywhere about the
> cost of XM weather. In an era where folks pay close to $100/month for
> cable television, give a cell phone to every pre-teen in their
> household, and drive huge SUVs, I can't understand where the pain of
> paying $30-$50/month for weather uplink is coming from.

You don't understand that most people *don't* pay close to $100/month for cable
TV, *don't* hand out cell phones like candy, and *don't* drive huge SUVs. That's
why you can't understand that many of us will find $30-$50/month for a glorified
radio a PITA.

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Newps]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

>>
>>You're right, XM provides more, but not $30 more per month, much less $50.
>
>
> Not sure that I agree with your assessment. I subscribe to the $50 XM
> option and have found almost every element provided to be very useful.
> Not to mention that Baron seems to do a decent job with data quality--I
> wonder where the data from ADS-B comes from.

Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.


>
> I just don't understand the whining that I hear everywhere about the
> cost of XM weather. In an era where folks pay close to $100/month for
> cable television, give a cell phone to every pre-teen in their
> household, and drive huge SUVs, I can't understand where the pain of
> paying $30-$50/month for weather uplink is coming from. It's not for
> everyone, but frequent flyers can certainly benefit from it.

Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
nickel for weather now get it for free.
>
>
>
>
>>>In addition, ADS-B doesn't provide an entertainment services like XM
>>>radio, for those who might use it.

I don't pay anything extra for XM in the plane right now. I simply take
one of my radios with me when I fly.

>>
>>I have an XM radio in my plane now. Although XM in the 396 works it is
>>a secondary function and as such is not all that convenient to use.
>
>
> Actually, I think it's pretty intuitive. Garmin did a good job with the
> integration, though it's not quite as convenient for things like channel
> selection.

Bingo, once you've had an XM in the plane the 396 is really cumbersome.


>
> Until those "hundreds of transmitters" are live and active, ADS-B is
> pretty much moot. I doubt in 2-3 years we will see widespread ADS-B
> available as we have XM available today. And, I wonder what happens to
> your data if you're out of range of a transmitter?

You're right, it is a chicken and egg problem. However it is already in
place and running for the entire east coast. In 2-3 years I'll bet the
entire country is covered. And one of the driving factors will be
traffic information, something XM does not and cannot provide.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <5nwcf.24704$w_6.3913@trndny09>,
George Patterson > wrote:
> You don't understand that most people *don't* pay close to $100/month for
> cable
> TV, *don't* hand out cell phones like candy, and *don't* drive huge SUVs.
> That's
> why you can't understand that many of us will find $30-$50/month for a
> glorified
> radio a PITA.

I'm not sure how it's "a PITA?" You're not paying $30-$50/month for the
radio, you're paying for the data. If you want the data, pay the
[reasonable] fee. If you don't want the data, don't buy the radio and
don't pay the fee--and quit whining.

It seems that the greatest myth about ADS-B is that it will be "free."
Nothing is free.


JKG

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:
> Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.

Some of the raw data comes from the government, but not all of it.
Lightning detection, for example, is not provided by the government.
Regardless of where the data comes from, the important element isn't the
data, it's how that data is processed. NWS and various private weather
companies, such as Baron, have their own algorithms and processes for
weather data. The results, even on a NEXRAD reflectivity display, can
be drastically different.



> Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
> that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
> nickel for weather now get it for free.

What is "just about everything?" Personally, I would pay the $50 per
month if the product is better and more reliable. At this point, the XM
service is well known and is used both inside and outside of aviation.
I have yet to actually hear a first-hand detailed account of ADS-B
weather products.



> You're right, it is a chicken and egg problem. However it is already in
> place and running for the entire east coast. In 2-3 years I'll bet the
> entire country is covered. And one of the driving factors will be
> traffic information, something XM does not and cannot provide.

Where are the receivers? As far as I can tell, the system is still in
the experimental stage for all practical purposes.

Traffic information will be nice, but I never thought that TIS was worth
the investment because there were areas which simply weren't covered.
Products like SkyWatch are independent of any ground-based facility, so
are much more effective, but require a substatial up-front investment.

The bottom line is that the system is still a pipe dream for all
practical purposes. The reality is that manufacturers aren't going to
develop and mass-market receivers until the deployment is substantial
and there is a demand for them. The time between substantial deployment
and mass demand is going to be more than 2-3 years... I highly doubt the
deployment will be done in 2-3 years, especially given the fact that it
is a government project.

The other issue that concerns me is that there is no free lunch. ADS-B
and every other government service requires funding. That funding is
going to have to come from somewhere, whether it's a user fee,
subscription fee, fuel tax, etc. One way or the other, YOU will be
paying for it even if you don't use it. It will not be "free."



JKG

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "GP" == George Patterson > writes:

GP> You don't understand that most people *don't* pay close to
GP> $100/month for cable TV, *don't* hand out cell phones like
GP> candy, and *don't* drive huge SUVs.

I have no firsthand knowledge of people's spending habits for cable TV
and cell phones, but the SUVs (and monster pickups) I see on the
freeways every day here in Sacramento. They outnumber sedans. I hope
gasoline keeps creeping higher so they get skunked.

[Dave Butler]

Newps wrote:

>
> Nexrad and other weather comes from the government.

Ultimately of course, yes. For the moment, it's coming by way of WSI:
http://www.wsi.com/corporate/newsroom/releases/041904.asp

<snip>

> Why would you pay $50 per month when just about everything you get for
> that $50 will be free? Not to mention the people that wouldn't pay a
> nickel for weather now get it for free.

The cost of admission will probably come down, but for the moment, it's about
$15K for the display and receiver. You may already have the display, but not
many do. The cost will come down only if the FAA signals that it is really
behind the program and will stick with it, so manufacturers know this isn't just
another microwave approach program, or mode-S TIS.

<stuff about entertainment value of XM snipped>

I'll just add that the entertainment value is zero for me.

[Dave Butler]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> NWS and various private weather
> companies, such as Baron, have their own algorithms and processes for
> weather data. The results, even on a NEXRAD reflectivity display, can
> be drastically different.

For the kind of weather avoidance I need, I'm not convinced the differences are
significant. I'm going to treat any kind of weather radar return pretty much the
same, and assume there are errors in the presentation.

> What is "just about everything?" Personally, I would pay the $50 per
> month if the product is better and more reliable. At this point, the XM
> service is well known and is used both inside and outside of aviation.
> I have yet to actually hear a first-hand detailed account of ADS-B
> weather products.

I have a 396, and I've taken a demo ride in an ADS-B equipped airplane. To my
eyes, the weather presentation is about equivalent. Maybe I'm not as
discriminating as you are. NCDOT is sponsoring some ADS-B equipped private
aircraft, and the price of admission is that you have to put on some seminars
and give people demonstration rides. Check the NCDOT web site for announcements
of seminars and demos.

> Where are the receivers? As far as I can tell, the system is still in
> the experimental stage for all practical purposes.

http://www.garmin.com/products/gdl90/

A GDL90 and an MX20 display is all you need. About $15K. Available today on the
east coast. No subscription fees.

> Traffic information will be nice, but I never thought that TIS was worth
> the investment because there were areas which simply weren't covered.
> Products like SkyWatch are independent of any ground-based facility, so
> are much more effective, but require a substatial up-front investment.

Mode-S TIS was a chimera. TIS-B (the traffic component of ADS-B) is available
wherever ADS-B is available. Nobody knows where that will be or what the rollout
schedule will be.

>
> The bottom line is that the system is still a pipe dream for all
> practical purposes. The reality is that manufacturers aren't going to
> develop and mass-market receivers until the deployment is substantial
> and there is a demand for them. The time between substantial deployment
> and mass demand is going to be more than 2-3 years... I highly doubt the
> deployment will be done in 2-3 years, especially given the fact that it
> is a government project.

Agreed.

> The other issue that concerns me is that there is no free lunch. ADS-B
> and every other government service requires funding. That funding is
> going to have to come from somewhere, whether it's a user fee,
> subscription fee, fuel tax, etc. One way or the other, YOU will be
> paying for it even if you don't use it. It will not be "free."

Agreed.

[hughes]

I had my gall bladder removed in the meantime !! sorry my answer took
so long ! Here is the link to get the software
update:http://www.garmin.com/support/agree.jsp?id=889
First you've got to click on " I agree etc.." it will take you to a
page where you'll download the patch; On this same page you have a very
detailed description on what the update patch is for. Once you've got
your updtae saved on your computer,connect your 296 to your PC ( cable
was supplied when you bought your 296) and just follow the instruction.
You'll see: it workd really great once the update is made.

Regards

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <1131633301.948148@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler >
wrote:
> For the kind of weather avoidance I need, I'm not convinced the differences
> are
> significant. I'm going to treat any kind of weather radar return pretty much
> the
> same, and assume there are errors in the presentation.

If you're going to do that, why even have weather uplink? It's only
good if you can trust it, at least to some level.



> I have a 396, and I've taken a demo ride in an ADS-B equipped airplane. To my
> eyes, the weather presentation is about equivalent. Maybe I'm not as
> discriminating as you are. NCDOT is sponsoring some ADS-B equipped private
> aircraft, and the price of admission is that you have to put on some seminars
> and give people demonstration rides. Check the NCDOT web site for
> announcements
> of seminars and demos.

What are we comparing, NEXRAD? NEXRAD is only a fraction of the XM
weather products, and is often not the most useful in my experience.
I'm not sure what else ADS-B provides, but I suspect that it doesn't
provide as comprehensive a picture as the XM systems.



> http://www.garmin.com/products/gdl90/
>
> A GDL90 and an MX20 display is all you need. About $15K. Available today on
> the
> east coast. No subscription fees.

The receiver is $8,000 without installation. I'd have to pay $50/month
for more than 10 years just to break even on the receiver hardware
alone, excluding installation, and excluding the MX20 and GPS (doesn't
make sense to do one without the other). Doesn't seem like a good deal
to me if all I want is weather. For the record, it's more than the
GLD69 which, at $5,000 for the hardware, also isn't a great deal when
you can buy the GPSmap 396 for $2,500 and have a backup GPS to boot.




> Mode-S TIS was a chimera. TIS-B (the traffic component of ADS-B) is available
> wherever ADS-B is available. Nobody knows where that will be or what the
> rollout
> schedule will be.

Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.





JKG

[Dave Butler]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

> Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.

You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
agreed with most of the things you said.

Dave

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <1131728434.247226@sj-nntpcache-5>, Dave Butler >
wrote:
> > Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.
>
> You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
> competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
> agreed with most of the things you said.

As far as I can tell, you injected yourself into this thread. My points
were in response to the assertions made by the original poster.


JKG

[Dave Butler]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article <1131728434.247226@sj-nntpcache-5>, Dave Butler >
> wrote:
>
>>>Thanks for making my point for me regarding ADS-B.
>>
>>You're welcome. You seem surprised, as if we were engaged in some kind of
>>competition to see who's right, or something. Chill. I think I pretty much
>>agreed with most of the things you said.
>
>
> As far as I can tell, you injected yourself into this thread. My points
> were in response to the assertions made by the original poster.

Sorry to bother you. I was operating under the delusion that this was a public
forum.

Next time you're responding to someone other than me, please don't intersperse
your responses within the text that I wrote.

Thanks.

Dave

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <1131733984.46967@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler >
wrote:
> Sorry to bother you. I was operating under the delusion that this was a
> public
> forum.
>
> Next time you're responding to someone other than me, please don't
> intersperse
> your responses within the text that I wrote.

My comments were equally applicable to what you wrote, which is why I
responded to your post. If you can't take the heat...



JKG

[Dave Butler]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article <1131733984.46967@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler >
> wrote:
>
>>Sorry to bother you. I was operating under the delusion that this was a
>>public
>>forum.
>>
>>Next time you're responding to someone other than me, please don't
>>intersperse
>>your responses within the text that I wrote.
>
>
> My comments were equally applicable to what you wrote, which is why I
> responded to your post. If you can't take the heat...

What kind of drugs are you on? Better scale back the dose. Reread the thread.
You make no sense. Out.