Group Poll :Oxygen

[Jim Burns]

Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
Which brand?
Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?
System features?
Size/capacity?
Typical altitude flown when in use?
Comments please.

Thanks!

Jim

[OtisWinslow]

SkyOx. I think it's about 4 hrs with a canula. Works ok.


"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
> Which brand?
> Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?
> System features?
> Size/capacity?
> Typical altitude flown when in use?
> Comments please.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
>

[Michael 182]

I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182. I use it with
cannulas equipped with a flow meter. With this set up I generally get
about 20-30 hours from an O2 fillup. I use O2 from about 11K up, 8 K
at night. Above FL180 I have to switch to a mask, as per the FARs, so
I generally don't bother going up there.

Michael

[Dave Butler]

Yo, Jim,

Jim Burns wrote:
> Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
> Which brand?

I bought a SkyOx system at OSH this year. I had looked at the AeroMedix products
which are less expensive, but the guy at the SkyOx booth convinced me it was
worth the extra money. The materials in the AeroMedix unit were visibly inferior.

> Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?

Happy so far, but little experience.

> System features?

One outlet. Mine is a steel bottle, I think the Kevlar bottles are lighter weight.

> Size/capacity?

Too small. I got hung up on the idea of not wanting to schlepp any more
equipment than necessary. Since I share my plane with partners, I can't leave
things in the plane and have to carry them in the car and load and unload them
every time I fly. I thought a small size would be good because it would be less
to carry. Actually I think the increment to carry a larger size bottle would be
minimal and would mean less refilling.

I also thought I would be using it mostly alone, so I got a single outlet
system. So far I've only used it alone, so it hasn't been an issue, but it
occurred to me that it might seem a little selfish to say to my pax "I'm going
on oxygen now, and sorry, I don't have any to offer you." So I wish I had gotten
two outlets.

> Typical altitude flown when in use?

Actually I've used it only once so far, on the way home from OSH at 11000 and
11500. I'm convinced I arrived home less tired than if I hadn't had it.

I picked that altitude partly because I wanted to go high enough to take
advantage of the ox and try it out. There were nice winds at that altitude, and
it helped me see better when it came time to cross a line of storms over
Virginia. Otherwise, I would typically fly at 7-8000. I've made flights at
10000+ without oxygen, but it was noticably tiring.

For reference, I'm 62, and in reasonably good shape, a regular runner and
swimmer (except for a recent break to recover from back surgery). Flying a
normally aspirated Mooney.

> Comments please.

May be just my lack of experience with it, but I found I need to put the cannula
in place and get all the tubing routed correctly before takeoff. It's just too
much fussin' to put it together and fly the plane at the same time.

Good luck! Dave

[Paul kgyy]

I bought the Precise Flight system because it appears to have a good,
secure mount for the tank (recommended by Aviation Consumer). Only
used it once so far, but I haven't found an efficient way to route the
cannula tubing around headphones to allow free movement of my head. I
also bought an Aeromedix O2 monitor to keep track of blood saturation
level, and recommend it as a safety tool. The first symptom of hypoxia
is, after all, a sense that all is going well.

[Dave Butler]

Paul kgyy wrote:
> I bought the Precise Flight system because it appears to have a good,
> secure mount for the tank (recommended by Aviation Consumer). Only
> used it once so far, but I haven't found an efficient way to route the
> cannula tubing around headphones to allow free movement of my head. I
> also bought an Aeromedix O2 monitor to keep track of blood saturation
> level, and recommend it as a safety tool. The first symptom of hypoxia
> is, after all, a sense that all is going well.

I forgot to mention it, I have a blood oximeter as well. I shopped around and
found one that appears identical to the AeroMedix for less. The newest Aviation
Consumer also has an article recommending a still less expensive one.

Dave

[Jim Burns]

Hey Dave,
The 02 vendors at OSH are always on my list of stops, but I've become chided
from their "we're better than brand X" sales pitches, and thus haven't
investigated them seriously.

It looks like most of my reasons for shopping are the same as your original
reasons:
multiple partners, it would be my personal setup, not the group's
occasional use, not many flights up into the double digits, but the plane
can do it and it would be nice to be able to if needed
steel bottle wouldn't bother me as far as weight (at least for this
airplane)

Jim


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1130789820.89978@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Yo, Jim,
>
> Jim Burns wrote:
> > Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
> > Which brand?
>
> I bought a SkyOx system at OSH this year. I had looked at the AeroMedix
products
> which are less expensive, but the guy at the SkyOx booth convinced me it
was
> worth the extra money. The materials in the AeroMedix unit were visibly
inferior.
>
> > Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?
>
> Happy so far, but little experience.
>
> > System features?
>
> One outlet. Mine is a steel bottle, I think the Kevlar bottles are lighter
weight.
>
> > Size/capacity?
>
> Too small. I got hung up on the idea of not wanting to schlepp any more
> equipment than necessary. Since I share my plane with partners, I can't
leave
> things in the plane and have to carry them in the car and load and unload
them
> every time I fly. I thought a small size would be good because it would be
less
> to carry. Actually I think the increment to carry a larger size bottle
would be
> minimal and would mean less refilling.
>
> I also thought I would be using it mostly alone, so I got a single outlet
> system. So far I've only used it alone, so it hasn't been an issue, but it
> occurred to me that it might seem a little selfish to say to my pax "I'm
going
> on oxygen now, and sorry, I don't have any to offer you." So I wish I had
gotten
> two outlets.
>
> > Typical altitude flown when in use?
>
> Actually I've used it only once so far, on the way home from OSH at 11000
and
> 11500. I'm convinced I arrived home less tired than if I hadn't had it.
>
> I picked that altitude partly because I wanted to go high enough to take
> advantage of the ox and try it out. There were nice winds at that
altitude, and
> it helped me see better when it came time to cross a line of storms over
> Virginia. Otherwise, I would typically fly at 7-8000. I've made flights at
> 10000+ without oxygen, but it was noticably tiring.
>
> For reference, I'm 62, and in reasonably good shape, a regular runner and
> swimmer (except for a recent break to recover from back surgery). Flying a
> normally aspirated Mooney.
>
> > Comments please.
>
> May be just my lack of experience with it, but I found I need to put the
cannula
> in place and get all the tubing routed correctly before takeoff. It's
just too
> much fussin' to put it together and fly the plane at the same time.
>
> Good luck! Dave
>

[Stefan]

Among glider pilots, the mountain high EDS system is very popular.
http://www.mhoxygen.com/ Not cheap, but worth the money. Many of us just
put it on at the beginning of a flight and forget it.

Stefan

[Robert M. Gary]

Own. Airox. Its more expensive than SkyOx but allows each person to set
their own amount of O2. Mine is 4 place and about 4ish feet long.

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Same system, diff. plane. Same use alts and duration.

You didn't mention a oximeter but I thinks it's a must.

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
...
>I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182. I use it with
> cannulas equipped with a flow meter. With this set up I generally get
> about 20-30 hours from an O2 fillup. I use O2 from about 11K up, 8 K
> at night. Above FL180 I have to switch to a mask, as per the FARs, so
> I generally don't bother going up there.
>
> Michael

[Sylvain]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?

I own an Aerox (two places regulator) with a "M" tank
(22 cu feet at 2216 psi) which I use mostly with an
'oxysave' canula;

The reviews I read were saying the aerox regulator
was most reliable -- note that the regulator is what
makes the difference really between brands, tanks
and canula/masks being pretty much the same -- and
I picked the "M" tank because... well, dunno :-)
looked like the best comprise between size and capacity;

I use it if I plan on spending some time above 5000 at
night and 10000 during the day and during long cross
country (much less fatigue at the end);

--Sylvain

[Michelle P]

Own,
Nelson
Works well, no complaints
Four person, 15/18 CF
Flow is marked as an altitude on the valve.
Michelle

Jim Burns wrote:

>Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
>Which brand?
>Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?
>System features?
>Size/capacity?
>Typical altitude flown when in use?
>Comments please.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?

I own a precise flight (nelson) bottle with the scuba-type
(conservers) regulators for the me and Margy and a couple
of the cheaper ball-in-tube flow regulators in the rare
event of passengers.

> Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?

Comes with a nice bag, unfortunately the strapping they give
you won't mount to the Navion seats (needs the type of seat where
you can fish the strap between the seat bottom and seat back).

The regulators have the nice feature that you can turn up the
oxygen if you decide you need more than the default setting
(set by altitude). The conservers do a good job on extending
the bottle times. Both of these are an improvement over the
Mountain Home system we also looked at which doesn't do as good
of a job on conserving, is essentially a "black box" that you
can't adjust, and requires a battery to boot.


> Size/capacity?

22 cubic foot

> Typical altitude flown when in use?

Anything approaching 10K or more. Lower at night.

> Comments please.
>

[Jim Burns]

Thanks for all the great responses!

Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02 vs
medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)

What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?

I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse controller
vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.

Thanks again, lots of great answers!

Jim

[Bashir Salamati]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

:Thanks for all the great responses!
:
:Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02 vs
:medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
:
:What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
:
:I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
:compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse controller
:vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
:
:Thanks again, lots of great answers!

Aviation 02, $25

Welding 02, $.25

[[email protected]]

The MH is very deluxe. You feel great on about 1/4 the oxygen
that would usually be required.

Probably not for the casual user tho... It would take a lot of fills
to justify the price.

Bill Hale

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> The MH is very deluxe. You feel great on about 1/4 the oxygen
> that would usually be required.
>
> Probably not for the casual user tho... It would take a lot of fills
> to justify the price.

It's not just about the direct economics of the situation.

Using less oxygen means being able to be more selective about where one
fills up the tank. I've found that traveling across the country, oxygen
fill-ups vary widely in price. I've seen as low as $15, and as high as $50
or more. It would be nice to be able to tell the folks selling for $50 to
take a hike, because your tank will last you another three legs (or more!).

And of course, there's the sheer convenience of not having to fill up as
often.

Now, granted...that's not a computable benefit. One has to decide for
themself what that convenience is worth. But an airplane owner has often
already decided they are willing to spend extra for convenience; a LOT
extra. The extra expense for the fancy oxygen system often pales in
comparison.

Besides, a 1/4 the flow and $50 fillups, it won't actually take that long to
pay for a Mountain High system. :)

Pete

[Ken Reed]

> Do you own/rent/borrow a portable oxygen system?
> Which brand?
> Likes/dislikes regarding the particular brand?
> System features?
> Size/capacity?
> Typical altitude flown when in use?
> Comments please.

I considered all my options with respect to oxygen and ended up with the
Precise Flight System. I ordered the 'M' cylinder one with two of the
demand valves and two regular devices. Four face masks and all the other
goodies, of course. Last Thursday I went from Tucson (KAVQ) to Portland,
OR (KPDX). Mostly, we were at 14,000 ft, IFR. I returned home on Sunday,
mostly at 15,000 ft. The trip was 7.1 hours up (with weather deviations
and a precautionary landing for weather) and 5.9 hours back. 13 hours
total flying time. Probably 12 of those hours on oxygen. Two people. The
FBO didn't completely fill up the tank (1700 psi) before I left, but I
didn't run out of oxygen. There isn't much left in the tank but it
appears the demand valves allow more than 24 person hours on a tank. I
also bought into a transfilling system with another guy at the airport
so filling the bottle won't be expensive.
---
Ken Reed
N960CM
2001 SR-22

[Ken Reed]

> I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182.

All oxygen systems are 2000 psi. The capacity varies.
---
Ken Reed
N960CM

[Jose]

> The FBO didn't completely fill up the tank (1700 psi) before I left

I take it you can tell beforehand from the pressure gauge? Why wouldn't
they fill it completely?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> The FBO didn't completely fill up the tank (1700 psi) before I left
>
> I take it you can tell beforehand from the pressure gauge? Why wouldn't
> they fill it completely?

I have frequently run into FBOs that can't supply a full 2000 psi of
pressure. Why this is, I don't know (I mean, I understand the mechanics of
it, but why they maintain their oxygen supply at such a low state, I can't
say). But it's actually unusual for me to get my tank actually filled with
a "fill-up".

By the way, the range of prices I've seen only has a passing relation to the
amount of oxygen I get. Of course, I don't pay full price if I don't get a
full tank, but sometimes I can get a full tank (starting from nearly empty)
for a low price.

Pete

[Matt Barrow]

"Bashir Salamati" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> > wrote:
>
> :Thanks for all the great responses!
> :
> :Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02
> vs
> :medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
> :
> :What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
> :
> :I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
> :compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse
> controller
> :vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
> :
> :Thanks again, lots of great answers!
>
> Aviation 02, $25
>
> Welding 02, $.25

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

Pelican's Perch #13:
Getting High on Welder's Oxygen

Having problems finding Aviator's Breathing Oxygen to refill your bottle?
Upset about the rip-off prices some FBOs charge for an O2 fill? Don't put up
with it, says AVweb's John Deakin, who explains why it's perfectly safe -
and perfectly legal - to use cheap welder's oxygen, and tells you exactly
what you need to know to buy it in bulk and do your own refills.

[Ken Reed]

>> The FBO didn't completely fill up the tank (1700 psi) before I left

> I take it you can tell beforehand from the pressure gauge? Why wouldn't
> they fill it completely?

They were getting ready to close and would have had to retrieve a fresh
tank. 1700 was fine this time.
---
Ken Reed
N960CM

[Bashir Salamati]

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:57:34 GMT, Ken Reed > wrote:

:> I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182.
:
:All oxygen systems are 2000 psi. The capacity varies.
:---
:Ken Reed
:N960CM

Mine is rated for 3000, but I can only rarely get that. It is a
fiberglass wrapped bottle.

http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.phtml?nav_id=28&product_id=291

[Michelle P]

Typically they are 1800 to 2400 depending on temp and cylinder construction.
Michelle

Ken Reed wrote:

>> I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182.
>
>
> All oxygen systems are 2000 psi. The capacity varies.
> ---
> Ken Reed
> N960CM

[Stefan]

wrote:

> The MH is very deluxe. You feel great on about 1/4 the oxygen
> that would usually be required.
>
> Probably not for the casual user tho... It would take a lot of fills
> to justify the price.

The reason why it is popuar among glider pilots is not economics, but
convenience and safety.

Convenience: Put the cannula and turn the system on before you start and
forget it for the rest of the day.

Safety: Because it uses very little oxygen, we can use it at lower
altitudes without the risk of running out of oxygene. Many of us set the
threshold as low as 6000 ft. Believe it or not, but we think we feel the
difference. (Less fatigue, no headache the day after, generally better
flying.) Of course, glider flights differ a lot from powered ones: the
duration of glider flights is typically somewhere between 6 to 8 hours
and at very varying altitudes.

Stefan

[Ron Natalie]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Thanks for all the great responses!
>
> Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02 vs
> medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
>
> What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
>
By the way, all the vendors will top off your bottles for free at
Oshkosh (and probably the other major shows). Handy thing to remember.

[Ron Natalie]

Jose wrote:
>> The FBO didn't completely fill up the tank (1700 psi) before I left
>
> I take it you can tell beforehand from the pressure gauge? Why wouldn't
> they fill it completely?
>
Because they either don't have a cascade or don't know how to use it
properly. They probably stopped at 1700 because that was all that was
left in their single bottle.

[xyzzy]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Bashir Salamati" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:
>>
>>:Thanks for all the great responses!
>>:
>>:Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02
>>vs
>>:medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
>>:
>>:What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
>>:
>>:I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
>>:compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse
>>controller
>>:vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
>>:
>>:Thanks again, lots of great answers!
>>
>>Aviation 02, $25
>>
>>Welding 02, $.25
>
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>
> Pelican's Perch #13:
> Getting High on Welder's Oxygen
>
> Having problems finding Aviator's Breathing Oxygen to refill your bottle?
> Upset about the rip-off prices some FBOs charge for an O2 fill? Don't put up
> with it, says AVweb's John Deakin, who explains why it's perfectly safe -
> and perfectly legal - to use cheap welder's oxygen, and tells you exactly
> what you need to know to buy it in bulk and do your own refills.
>
>

I hear ya, but....

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1

This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
years ago.


--
"You can support the troops but not the president"
--Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> "Bashir Salamati" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>:Thanks for all the great responses!
>>>:
>>>:Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02
>>>vs
>>>:medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
>>>:
>>>:What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
>>>:
>>>:I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
>>>:compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse
>>>controller
>>>:vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
>>>:
>>>:Thanks again, lots of great answers!
>>>
>>>Aviation 02, $25
>>>
>>>Welding 02, $.25
>>
>>
>> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>>
>> Pelican's Perch #13:
>> Getting High on Welder's Oxygen
>>
>> Having problems finding Aviator's Breathing Oxygen to refill your bottle?
>> Upset about the rip-off prices some FBOs charge for an O2 fill? Don't put
>> up with it, says AVweb's John Deakin, who explains why it's perfectly
>> safe - and perfectly legal - to use cheap welder's oxygen, and tells you
>> exactly what you need to know to buy it in bulk and do your own refills.
>>
>>
>
> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.
>
>

I wonder how much was paid out in that law suit?

[Peter R.]

xyzzy > wrote:

> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.

Absolutely incredible that the passenger survived this accident.

--
Peter
























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[Mark Hansen]

On 11/2/2005 13:21, xyzzy wrote:

> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> "Bashir Salamati" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>:Thanks for all the great responses!
>>>:
>>>:Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02
>>>vs
>>>:medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
>>>:
>>>:What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
>>>:
>>>:I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
>>>:compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse
>>>controller
>>>:vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
>>>:
>>>:Thanks again, lots of great answers!
>>>
>>>Aviation 02, $25
>>>
>>>Welding 02, $.25
>>
>>
>> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>>
>> Pelican's Perch #13:
>> Getting High on Welder's Oxygen
>>
>> Having problems finding Aviator's Breathing Oxygen to refill your bottle?
>> Upset about the rip-off prices some FBOs charge for an O2 fill? Don't put up
>> with it, says AVweb's John Deakin, who explains why it's perfectly safe -
>> and perfectly legal - to use cheap welder's oxygen, and tells you exactly
>> what you need to know to buy it in bulk and do your own refills.
>>
>>
>
> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.
>
>

Are you saying that Compressed Air is the same as Welder's Oxygen, or did
I miss something?

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

[RST Engineering]

No, he's saying that xyzzy is a clueless moron.

Jim


>
> Are you saying that Compressed Air is the same as Welder's Oxygen, or did
> I miss something?
>
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Sacramento, CA

[Jim Burns]

Tank was filled with breathing air, not oxygen, not even welding 02.
Weirdest most bizarre thing I read: "The aircraft sustained an inflight
breakup during an uncontrolled descent, and came to rest in a tree.
According to the surviving passenger..." Wow. And according to the
complete narrative the passenger only received minor injuries, but the pilot
actually died of hypoxia or he may have also survived!

Jim

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > "Bashir Salamati" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 09:41:37 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>:Thanks for all the great responses!
> >>:
> >>:Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation
02
> >>vs
> >>:medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
> >>:
> >>:What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
> >>:
> >>:I really like the idea of Precise Flights pulse system, but I'd like to
> >>:compare the cost of 02 saved vs the cost of the adjustible pulse
> >>controller
> >>:vs the claimed increase in comfort over the regular non-pulse systems.
> >>:
> >>:Thanks again, lots of great answers!
> >>
> >>Aviation 02, $25
> >>
> >>Welding 02, $.25
> >
> >
> > http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
> >
> > Pelican's Perch #13:
> > Getting High on Welder's Oxygen
> >
> > Having problems finding Aviator's Breathing Oxygen to refill your
bottle?
> > Upset about the rip-off prices some FBOs charge for an O2 fill? Don't
put up
> > with it, says AVweb's John Deakin, who explains why it's perfectly
safe -
> > and perfectly legal - to use cheap welder's oxygen, and tells you
exactly
> > what you need to know to buy it in bulk and do your own refills.
> >
> >
>
> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.
>
>
> --
> "You can support the troops but not the president"
> --Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.
>

[Ron Natalie]

xyzzy wrote:

>
> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.
>
>
So what does that have to do with welding oxygen versus ABO?

The bottles in question were filled with air, not oxygen. The
markings on the bottle, the color of the bottle, the invoice from
the gas supplier, and the contents of the bottle were all in
agreement, air (like SCUBA) not oxygen.

Makes me think I should carry a gas analyzer. Scuba divers are
tending to do so to make sure their more esoteric mixes are prepared
right.

[Seth Masia]

I bought a small Sky-Ox bottle about five years ago. I use it over the
Rockies. I'm usually solo and it goes about 2.5 hours at 15,500 feet, which
is more than enough to get me home.

Seth


"Ken Reed" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182.
>
> All oxygen systems are 2000 psi. The capacity varies.
> ---
> Ken Reed
> N960CM

[Jose]

> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few years ago.

Well, that doesn't have to do with using welder's oxygen. It has to do
with using air instead of oxygen. A mistake, yes, but mistakes can
occur in any stage of the chain.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning xyzzy > wrote:
: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1

... and then there's they guy from the thread a month or two ago that said
that since he was barely affected (aside from a bit of shortness of breath) when doing
manual labor in an unpressurized plane climbing to 25,000 ft that all the hype about
being "noticably affected" below 15,000 was bull****.

Again I call bull****.

Unless you are moderately active in excercise and live in the rockies at 5000
feet or higher, or are a particularly unusual person, you WILL be impaired at 10k for
any time longer than a few minutes. Hypoxia is insideous.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Blanche]

> wrote:
>In rec.aviation.owning xyzzy > wrote:
>: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> ... and then there's they guy from the thread a month or two ago that said
>that since he was barely affected (aside from a bit of shortness of
>breath) when doing
>manual labor in an unpressurized plane climbing to 25,000 ft that all
>the hype about
>being "noticably affected" below 15,000 was bull****.
>
> Again I call bull****.
>
> Unless you are moderately active in excercise and live in the rockies at 5000
>feet or higher, or are a particularly unusual person, you WILL be
>impaired at 10k for
>any time longer than a few minutes. Hypoxia is insideous.

I live in the Rockies higher than 5K (well, actually, Denver is in the
plains, but we're still that high). And I still get tired in the
mountains on my way skiing, and exhausted when I get home. I've been
trying to figure out a way to carry my O2 bottle while skiing, but
I'm sure the ski area lawyers wouldn't allow it.

[John Doe]

>
> Unless you are moderately active in excercise and live in the rockies at
> 5000
> feet or higher, or are a particularly unusual person, you WILL be impaired
> at 10k for
> any time longer than a few minutes. Hypoxia is insideous.

A little over-generalized, but it is something folks need to take seriously.

What I've found is every person is different. You can't say that one person
who lives at sea level will be effected one way and someone else who lives
in the mountains will be different. I've seen cases that I would agree, and
I've seen the exact opposite.

Everyone needs to be aware of their own personal limitations and respect the
altitude and lack of oxygen.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2005-11-03, > wrote:
<snip>
> Unless you are moderately active in excercise and live in the rockies at 5000
> feet or higher, or are a particularly unusual person, you WILL be impaired at > 10k for any time longer than a few minutes. Hypoxia is insideous.

But there's impaired and IMPAIRED.

I've lived at sea level pretty much all my life - where I live now is
about 90ft MSL, where I last lived was 25ft MSL.

However, I can happily go skiing all day long in Utah, doing vigorous
exercise between 9000 and 12000 ft all day long. I am not unusual (well,
I might be weird but physically I'm not unusual).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[aviation]

My first post on your group.
I've read this entire thread and am suprised that no one has mentioned
using
an O2 system from a home healthcare type source.
It's the same 02, the same bottles. the same delivery method, just
maybe a
whole lot cheaper than buying something that says "airplane" on it.
I've been quoted about $200 for a 6# tank and regulator, with cannulas.
The
Regualtor is metered by volume per minute. ie 2 liters per minute.
Would this work, why? why not?
About me,
1972 Piper Arrow II only capable of flights to around 12,000 MSL ( for
all
intents and purposes)
Dallas, TX.
Would like to have it cause I don't want to die.
Chester

[Jose]

> no one has mentioned using
> an O2 system from a home healthcare type source.
> It's the same 02, the same bottles.

IN ground school I was taught that medical O2 has water in it which can
freeze in the lines at high altitudes and low pressures. I've never
used O2 so have no firsthand experience.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dave Butler]

>> no one has mentioned using
>> an O2 system from a home healthcare type source.
>> It's the same 02, the same bottles.

> IN ground school I was taught that medical O2 has water in it which can
> freeze in the lines at high altitudes and low pressures. I've never
> used O2 so have no firsthand experience.

There may be a difference in the water specification between medical and
aviator's oxygen, but there is no practical difference. It all comes from the
same oxygen plant. There's an article on the subject at avweb.

I've never tried it, but I've been told that medical oxygen supply places want
to see your prescription, or no sale.

Dave

[[email protected]]

I have had the same experience, although my ability to tolerate high
altitude exercise has declined with age (I'm 61).
I have also flown frequently between 9500 and 12500 with no apparent
ill effects. However, my wife complains of
headaches if I take her above 10,000 or so.

David Johnson

[Mike Adams]

"aviation" > wrote:

> My first post on your group.
> I've read this entire thread and am suprised that no one has mentioned
> using
> an O2 system from a home healthcare type source.
> It's the same 02, the same bottles. the same delivery method, just
> maybe a
> whole lot cheaper than buying something that says "airplane" on it.
> I've been quoted about $200 for a 6# tank and regulator, with cannulas.
> The
> Regualtor is metered by volume per minute. ie 2 liters per minute.
> Would this work, why? why not?
> About me,
> 1972 Piper Arrow II only capable of flights to around 12,000 MSL ( for
> all
> intents and purposes)
> Dallas, TX.
> Would like to have it cause I don't want to die.
> Chester
>

It works just fine. I have a medical cylinder and the local medical gas supply house happily refills it. The
regulator is in liter/min. I asked one of the Oxygen system vendors at Oshkosh about that, and he said a
good rule of thumb is one liter/minute per person. I also bought a pulse oximeter, so that eliminates the
guess work.

Mike

[George Patterson]

wrote:

> Unless you are moderately active in excercise and live in the rockies at 5000
> feet or higher, or are a particularly unusual person, you WILL be impaired at 10k for
> any time longer than a few minutes. Hypoxia is insideous.

Pilots in WWI routinely flew patrols at altitudes up to 20,000' without oxygen.
Basically, being physically able to perform at 6,000 meters was part of the
criteria for being an airman. If you couldn't hack it, you washed out (or died).

George Patterson
Drink is the curse of the land. It makes you quarrel with your neighbor.
It makes you shoot at your landlord. And it makes you miss him.

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

My AP/AI does free at annual

--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Jim Burns wrote:
>> Thanks for all the great responses!
>>
>> Another question that hit me (without getting into the whole aviation 02
>> vs
>> medical 02 vs welding 02 debate)
>>
>> What is the average cost for your refills with aviation 02?
>>
> By the way, all the vendors will top off your bottles for free at Oshkosh
> (and probably the other major shows). Handy thing to remember.

[BTIZ]

check your 5 yr inspection date..
BT

"Seth Masia" > wrote in message
...
>I bought a small Sky-Ox bottle about five years ago. I use it over the
>Rockies. I'm usually solo and it goes about 2.5 hours at 15,500 feet,
>which is more than enough to get me home.
>
> Seth
>
>
> "Ken Reed" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>> I have a factory installed 2000 lb system in my TR-182.
>>
>> All oxygen systems are 2000 psi. The capacity varies.
>> ---
>> Ken Reed
>> N960CM
>
>

[Kyle Boatright]

"xyzzy" > wrote in message
...

> I hear ya, but....
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X07722&key=1
>
> This accident was featured in FLYING magazine's aftermath column a few
> years ago.
>
>
> --
> "You can support the troops but not the president"
> --Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.

Interestingly, our EAA chapter hosted the one of the NTSB guys who covered
this accident. His telling of the tale was even more interesting than the
NTSB official report. After they went through the records of the FBO which
sold the "oxygen" to the accident aircraft, they had to track down all of
the a/c which had recently purchased 02 at the same FBO to warn them of the
02 problem.

[jpgoenix]

- Glider pilot:
http://www.jimphoenix.com/jimphoenix2/pages/Nimbus/Nimbus%20Flying/subNimbusFlying.html

- Mountain High EDS, connected to ships power with 9V battery backup
and spare battery in the bag just in case.

- Oxygen cannula on prior to takeoff on every flight, never know when
the thermals go above 10k, or wave happens.

- Nonin pulse oximeter, no better way to tell if you're saturated...
or not.

- Refill my own ship bottle (aluminum AL647 from MH) with welder's
oxygen. O2 is O2, unless somebody adds something to it, like H2O, but
then it's not O2 is it? Bottle and gas from Praxair. I also use it for
welding.

- The 647 lasts about 10 hours at 10k, then it's only down to about
500 lbs. I cascade to about 1500, then top off with my 2200 psi bottle,
the high pressure bottle lasts an entire summer, goes down to maybe
1800, then it becomes the cascade bottle.

- Cheap - make your own refill lines with fittings from
www.mcmaster.com.

- It's your life, figure out the oxygen thing if you're going to do
it. The Avweb article is good, google it.

Jim

www.jimphoenix.com

[John Doe]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> no one has mentioned using
>> an O2 system from a home healthcare type source.
>> It's the same 02, the same bottles.
>
> IN ground school I was taught that medical O2 has water in it which can
> freeze in the lines at high altitudes and low pressures. I've never used
> O2 so have no firsthand experience.
obvious change in the address.

Wow. I normally don't keep my cabin that cold. My wife would complain long
before water would freeze.

[Jose]

>> IN ground school I was taught that medical O2 has water in it which can
>> freeze in the lines at high altitudes and low pressures. I've never used
>> O2 so have no firsthand experience.
>
> Wow. I normally don't keep my cabin that cold. My wife would complain long
> before water would freeze.

Do you normally keep your wife inside the oxygen lines? I would
complain too.

:) Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Charles K. Scott]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 04:05:45 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>Pilots in WWI routinely flew patrols at altitudes up to 20,000' without oxygen.
>Basically, being physically able to perform at 6,000 meters was part of the
>criteria for being an airman. If you couldn't hack it, you washed out (or died).

That may be true George (and I believe it is), but there's no telling
how many pilots were lost from being stupidly hypoxic. There was an
instance in which two Allied pilots stalked a German Taube that was
flying at or about 20,000 feet. The Taube was obviously reconoitering
and taking photos, and it circled continuously over it's point of
interest. The two approaching pursuits were in plain sight, according
to the author (who was one of the two pilots), and even saw the German
pilots head turn and look at them. But he made no move to escape and
just flew on straight and level. They shot him down.

Corky Scott