Circling To Land On NDB-B and NDB-C

[S. Ramirez]

I am new to this group, because I recently went through an IFR course.

I do have a question. There is an airport close to here called Orlando
Sanford (SFB). It has two approaches called NDB-B and NDB-C. Both are
similar but they approach the airport from west and east, respectively.
Let's consider NDB-B. The approach is on 095 to the NDB, which is located
just north (very close) to 9L. The airport has runways 9L, 9C and 9R from
the west, plus a north-south runway. I asked my DE why this approach was a
circling to land only instead of a straight in approach, since the approach
course and runway 9L are well within 30° of each other. It took him a while
to say that the reason is that the approach doesn't cross the extended
centerline of runway 9L and therefore, it is a circling to land.

Now this sounds great, but I have not been able to find any reference to
this in the literature. I can only find references to the "within 30°" to
define a straight in approach, but I can't find that it also has to cross
the runway centerline. Can anyone help me out on this?

Thanks.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL

[Greg Esres]

<<but I can't find that it also has to cross the runway centerline.
>>

613. FINAL APPROACH SEGMENT. The final approach begins where the PT
intersects the FAC.
a. Alignment. The alignment of the FAC with the runway centerline
determines whether a straight-in or circling-only approach may be
established.

(1) Straight-In. The angle of convergence of the FAC and the extended
runway centerline shall not exceed 30°. The FAC should be aligned to
intersect the extended runway centerline 3000 feet outward from the
runway threshold. When an operational advantage can be achieved, this
point of intersection may be established at any point between the
runway threshold and a point 5200 feet outward from the runway
threshold. Also, where an operational advantage can be achieved a FAC
which does not intersect the runway centerline, or intersects it at a
distance greater than 5200 feet from the threshold, may be established
provided that such course lies within 500 feet, laterally, of the
extended runway centerline at a point 3000 feet outward from the
runway threshold. Straight-in category C, D, and E minimums are not
authorized when the final approach course intersects the extended
runway centerline at an angle greater than 15° and a distance less
than 3,000 feet (see Figure 55).

[S. Ramirez]

"Kevin Chandler" > wrote in message
...
> I have the same issue with an NDB approach into Butler Co. (HAO). The
> reason for the circling only at HAO deals with the differences between the
> MDA(1200) and the airport elevation(633). The FAA does not consider it
> possible to descend with a straight-in approach in a safe manner per the
> FARs; therefore, they only publish a circling minimum. It does not mean
> that you can't do a straight in. I suspect you have the same issue where
> your MDA is 600 ft and the airport elevation is 55. Have you flown this
> approach? Is it easy to get down to the airport while at the MDA and at
the
> MAP?


Yes, I have, Kevin. Here in Central FL the land is very flat. There are no
obstructions close by either. It has to be something other than the delta
between MDA and airport elevation.

Simon

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:37:45 GMT, "S. Ramirez" > wrote:

>Now this sounds great, but I have not been able to find any reference to
>this in the literature. I can only find references to the "within 30°" to
>define a straight in approach, but I can't find that it also has to cross
>the runway centerline. Can anyone help me out on this?


Well, as I read TERPS, it doesn't necessarily have to cross the extended
centerline, but where it does not, the course must be within 500' of the
extended centerline at a point 3000' outward from the runway threshold.

My crude measurements indicate the course is parallel but the NDB is
located about 1150 ft from the centerline of Rwy 9/27, so it violates that
requirement.

The reference is TERPS 713.a.(2)(a)


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:28:51 -0500, Greg Esres > wrote:

><<but I can't find that it also has to cross the runway centerline.
>>>
>
>613. FINAL APPROACH SEGMENT. The final approach begins where the PT
>intersects the FAC.
>a. Alignment. The alignment of the FAC with the runway centerline
>determines whether a straight-in or circling-only approach may be
>established.
>
>(1) Straight-In. The angle of convergence of the FAC and the extended
>runway centerline shall not exceed 30°. The FAC should be aligned to
>intersect the extended runway centerline 3000 feet outward from the
>runway threshold. When an operational advantage can be achieved, this
>point of intersection may be established at any point between the
>runway threshold and a point 5200 feet outward from the runway
>threshold. Also, where an operational advantage can be achieved a FAC
>which does not intersect the runway centerline, or intersects it at a
>distance greater than 5200 feet from the threshold, may be established
>provided that such course lies within 500 feet, laterally, of the
>extended runway centerline at a point 3000 feet outward from the
>runway threshold. Straight-in category C, D, and E minimums are not
>authorized when the final approach course intersects the extended
>runway centerline at an angle greater than 15° and a distance less
>than 3,000 feet (see Figure 55).

Just a very small nit -- doesn't 713 apply here since the procedure has a
FAF? This does not change the gist of the reply, though.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Greg Esres]

<<Just a very small nit -- doesn't 713 apply here since the procedure
has a FAF? This does not change the gist of the reply, though.
>>

I couldn't find the chart on my slightly outdated JeppView disk, so I
couldn't look at the approach. I know the poster said the NDB was
slightly to the North, but it still *might* have been treated as an
on-airport NDB. But, I guess from your post, it wasn't. :-)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:04:33 -0500, Greg Esres > wrote:

><<Just a very small nit -- doesn't 713 apply here since the procedure
>has a FAF? This does not change the gist of the reply, though.
>>>
>
>I couldn't find the chart on my slightly outdated JeppView disk, so I
>couldn't look at the approach. I know the poster said the NDB was
>slightly to the North, but it still *might* have been treated as an
>on-airport NDB. But, I guess from your post, it wasn't. :-)
>
>

It IS an on-airport NDB, but the procedure has an FAF. My outdated (1993)
copy of TERPS indicates that Chapter 6 is for NDB Procedures, ON-Airport
Facility NO FAF. Chapter 7 is for NDB Procedures with an FAF. And in
Chapter 7 they do discuss differences between on and off airport
facilities.

Perhaps more recent TERPS have changed this?

Let me check the web ... The chapter headings seem similar to above in
Change 19 dtd May 2002. So I would guess the reference should be Chapter
7, for an NDB with an FAF (location could be off or on airport).

Best,
--ron


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[S. Ramirez]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<Just a very small nit -- doesn't 713 apply here since the procedure
> has a FAF? This does not change the gist of the reply, though.
> >>
>
> I couldn't find the chart on my slightly outdated JeppView disk, so I
> couldn't look at the approach. I know the poster said the NDB was
> slightly to the North, but it still *might* have been treated as an
> on-airport NDB. But, I guess from your post, it wasn't. :-)

Greg,

If you or anyone doesn't have the approach plates to analyze an approach
plates, one can find them at the following website:

http://www.myairplane.com


Click on NOAA Approach Plates to go find the specific approach plate.

Simon Ramirez
Oviedo, FL USA