Commercial certificate question

[Matt Whiting]

I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion.
Does FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride
along on these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an
instrument rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate.
however, in reviewing my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries
of this length during either the day or night. I find it hard to
believe I need to cart along an instructor for this, but it seems to
read as though these flights must be "training" flights.

Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?

Regards,
Matt

[Mitty]

On 11/4/2005 4:00 PM, Matt Whiting wrote the following:
> I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion. Does
> FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride along
> on these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an
> instrument rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate. however,
> in reviewing my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries of this
> length during either the day or night. I find it hard to believe I need
> to cart along an instructor for this, but it seems to read as though
> these flights must be "training" flights.
>
> Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?
>
> Regards,
> Matt

My Examiner would say you are reading it correctly. I read it that any 2 hour
flights would do, but he didn't.

At my checkride, we had to hunt through my logbook to find a flight that
qualified under iii. Fortunately I had once taken an instructor friend with me
on a flight where I needed to use an airplane (Cherokee 6) that I wasn't fully
checked out in. The DE maybe stretched a bit, but accepted that flight as
meeting the requirement.

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 22:00:51 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion.
>Does FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride
>along on these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an
>instrument rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate.
>however, in reviewing my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries
>of this length during either the day or night. I find it hard to
>believe I need to cart along an instructor for this, but it seems to
>read as though these flights must be "training" flights.
>
>Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?

The school I'm at and the DE we use would agree that the 2hr day and
night CCs have to be logged as dual received since they are in the
"flight training" section of the requirements (just went through this
myself while reviewing the logbooks to make sure we're on track to
meet the CP-AMEL requirements before scheduling the checkride).

[Bill Zaleski]

No doubt about it, The flights are training flights, and must be done
with an authorized trainer, (CFI)


On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 18:22:16 -0500, Peter Clark
> wrote:

>On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 22:00:51 GMT, Matt Whiting >
>wrote:
>
>>I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion.
>>Does FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride
>>along on these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an
>>instrument rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate.
>>however, in reviewing my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries
>>of this length during either the day or night. I find it hard to
>>believe I need to cart along an instructor for this, but it seems to
>>read as though these flights must be "training" flights.
>>
>>Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?
>
>The school I'm at and the DE we use would agree that the 2hr day and
>night CCs have to be logged as dual received since they are in the
>"flight training" section of the requirements (just went through this
>myself while reviewing the logbooks to make sure we're on track to
>meet the CP-AMEL requirements before scheduling the checkride).

[Rip]

Yup, the night before my commercial checkride, I had to do a dual night
crosscountry with an instructor`.

Rip


Matt Whiting wrote:
> I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion. Does
> FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride along
> on these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an
> instrument rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate. however,
> in reviewing my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries of this
> length during either the day or night. I find it hard to believe I need
> to cart along an instructor for this, but it seems to read as though
> these flights must be "training" flights.
>
> Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?
>
> Regards,
> Matt

[BTIZ]

yes... they have to be training received from a CFI
one day, one night, and they have to be VFR.. using the IFR ticket to get
down through the soup at the other end is a disqualifying factor.. divert to
a VFR field..

the idea is that you have planned, flown and navigated to "commercial
standards"

I did mine with a very dark launch one morning.. landing before sunrise at
the other end.
Had breakfast at the airport diner and then flew back in day light.

BT

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>I think I know the answer to this, but would like a second opinion. Does
>FAR 61.129 (a)(3) (iii) and (iv) really require an instructor ride along on
>these two long VFR flights? I have over 600 hours TT and an instrument
>rating and plan to obtain my commercial certificate. however, in reviewing
>my logbook, I don't have any dual cross countries of this length during
>either the day or night. I find it hard to believe I need to cart along an
>instructor for this, but it seems to read as though these flights must be
>"training" flights.
>
> Any instructors able to confirm if I'm reading this correctly?
>
> Regards,
> Matt

[Andrew Sarangan]

Your DE definitely stretched that one in your favor because your CFI
had no idea that he was giving you commercial XC instruction. Hunting
through the logbook to find a flight to fits the FAR description is a
poor way to start a checkride. It has to be clearly written. I usually
write in my students' logbooks "Commercial VFR-XC" so that there is no
ambiguity later.

[Andrew Sarangan]

I think you mean 'landing one hour before sunrise'. An hour within
sunrise does not qualify as night.

[Jose]

> I think you mean 'landing one hour before sunrise'. An hour within
> sunrise does not qualify as night.

Actually it's civil twilight, which is about half hour the dark side of
sun thresholding, depending on latitude.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Actually it's civil twilight, which is about half hour the dark side of
> sun thresholding, depending on latitude.
>

The FAA uses different definitions of "night" in different situations. For
purposes of currency "night" is the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and
ending 1 hour before sunrise.

[Jose]

> The FAA uses different definitions of "night" in different situations. For
> purposes of currency "night" is the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and
> ending 1 hour before sunrise.

Thanks. I stand corrected. And cautioned. :)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[BTIZ]

you are correct in that statement.. landed at the appropriate timing..
and there still was no hint of a dawn on the eastern horizon

BT

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think you mean 'landing one hour before sunrise'. An hour within
> sunrise does not qualify as night.
>

[Matt Whiting]

BTIZ wrote:
> yes... they have to be training received from a CFI
> one day, one night, and they have to be VFR.. using the IFR ticket to get
> down through the soup at the other end is a disqualifying factor.. divert to
> a VFR field..
>
> the idea is that you have planned, flown and navigated to "commercial
> standards"
>
> I did mine with a very dark launch one morning.. landing before sunrise at
> the other end.
> Had breakfast at the airport diner and then flew back in day light.

I've been thinking the same think in reverse. Fly to an airport late in
the day, have supper and then return at night.

Just seems like a whacky requirement to me at this point in my flying
career. :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> I think you mean 'landing one hour before sunrise'. An hour within
> sunrise does not qualify as night.
>

I think the one hour rule is only for night currency. I believe the
civil twilight definition of night is appropriate for logging night
flight. I think Yodice recently covered this is some detail in AOPA Pilot.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Jose" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Actually it's civil twilight, which is about half hour the dark side of
>>sun thresholding, depending on latitude.
>>
>
>
> The FAA uses different definitions of "night" in different situations. For
> purposes of currency "night" is the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and
> ending 1 hour before sunrise.
>
>

Yes, but this isn't a currency flight, this is a training flight for
logging night flight time, so I think the civil twilight definition is
appropriate.


Matt

[BTIZ]

> I've been thinking the same think in reverse. Fly to an airport late in
> the day, have supper and then return at night.
>
> Just seems like a whacky requirement to me at this point in my flying
> career. :-)
>
> Matt

whacky requirement? Maybe..
but all applicants have to be trained to the same level, whether 250hrs or
1000hrs
have you received training IAW the commercial training standards for cross
country flying
and as part of that training to include divert procedures..

BT

[Matt Whiting]

BTIZ wrote:
>>I've been thinking the same think in reverse. Fly to an airport late in
>>the day, have supper and then return at night.
>>
>>Just seems like a whacky requirement to me at this point in my flying
>>career. :-)
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> whacky requirement? Maybe..
> but all applicants have to be trained to the same level, whether 250hrs or
> 1000hrs
> have you received training IAW the commercial training standards for cross
> country flying
> and as part of that training to include divert procedures..

I've diverted for real a number of times while in IMC and dealing with
thunderstorms and ice. I just don't see the description in the
commercial PTS to be all that challenging. :-)


Matt

[Andrew Sarangan]

You are correct. One hour is for night landing currency as spelled out
in FAR 61, but end of twilight is how 'night' is defined in FAR 1.

[Andrew Sarangan]

I believe the regs were written in the days when commercial pilot
candidates did not always have an instrument rating. Nowadays the
commercial xc is a rather silly requirement.

[Stan Prevost]

It is not night landing currency, it is night passenger-carrying currency.
It applies equally to a flight begun more than one hour before sunrise with
a landing in day conditions.

And it is not end of twilight, it is end or beginning of civil twilight.


"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You are correct. One hour is for night landing currency as spelled out
> in FAR 61, but end of twilight is how 'night' is defined in FAR 1.
>

[Jose]

> And it is not end of twilight, it is end or beginning of civil twilight.

Is there another kind of twilight?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Stan Prevost]

Yes, there is nautical twilight and astronomical twilight, and then just
plain old everyday "generic" twilight that we refer to in everyday speech.
The former ones and civil twilight have precise definitions based on how far
the center of the sun's disc is below the horizon, thus being useful for
regulatory purposes. Generic twilight is defined in a usual dictionary but
is not precise.


"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> And it is not end of twilight, it is end or beginning of civil twilight.
>
> Is there another kind of twilight?
>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose]

> Yes, there is nautical twilight and astronomical twilight

As Spock would say - "fascinating". What is the reason for all these
different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

Jose wrote:
> different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
> definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)

three definitions actually if I understood the AOPA article correctly;
(seems that the difference between day or night special VFR uses
yet another definition -- but then, I might just be confused about it
all) :-)

--Sylvain

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:
>> And it is not end of twilight, it is end or beginning of civil twilight.
>
>
> Is there another kind of twilight?

I believe that twilight in and of itself is a fairly subjective
description. Civil twilight, however, has been more rigorously defined
and thus is more precise. I don't recall exactly, but it is something
like the time when the center of the disk of the sun is so many degrees
(6 sticks in my mind, but is just a recollection) below the horizon with
respect to the point of the viewer.

There are tables available to give you this time at pretty much at point
on the earth.

Matt

[Tauno Voipio]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Jose wrote:
>
>>> And it is not end of twilight, it is end or beginning of civil twilight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there another kind of twilight?
>
>
> I believe that twilight in and of itself is a fairly subjective
> description. Civil twilight, however, has been more rigorously defined
> and thus is more precise. I don't recall exactly, but it is something
> like the time when the center of the disk of the sun is so many degrees
> (6 sticks in my mind, but is just a recollection) below the horizon with
> respect to the point of the viewer.
>
> There are tables available to give you this time at pretty much at point
> on the earth.
>
> Matt

For twilight definitions, see
<http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.html>.

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

[Rod]

Nautical twilight had a practical purpose when we depended on celestial
navigation. That was the period when it was dark enough to see the stars
and light enough to discern the horizon. That's the only time you can
"shoot" stars unless you use a leveling device.

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
> > Yes, there is nautical twilight and astronomical twilight
>
> As Spock would say - "fascinating". What is the reason for all these
> different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
> definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)
>
> Jose
> --
> Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Stan Prevost]

Well, there is sunset/sunrise, but that does not fall exactly within the
discussion of twilight definitions.

The FAA uses three different types of "non-day" for different purposes:
after sunset, after civil twilight, and more than one hour after sunset, and
the corresponding morning times.


"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> Jose wrote:
>> different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
>> definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)
>
> three definitions actually if I understood the AOPA article correctly;
> (seems that the difference between day or night special VFR uses
> yet another definition -- but then, I might just be confused about it
> all) :-)
>
> --Sylvain

[RST Engineering]

And, as we have said for a number of years, none of these "non-day" times
have a legal definition within the FAR.

Jim



"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
> Well, there is sunset/sunrise, but that does not fall exactly within the
> discussion of twilight definitions.
>
> The FAA uses three different types of "non-day" for different purposes:
> after sunset, after civil twilight, and more than one hour after sunset,
> and the corresponding morning times.

[Jose]

> And, as we have said for a number of years, none of these "non-day" times
> have a legal definition within the FAR.

Well, I don't know about that. "one hour after sunset" is used thusly
in the FARs and and is therefore a kind of "non-day" that is defined in
the FARs, though a name isn't given to it.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[RST Engineering]

You only have a definition for "one hour after sunset" if you have a legal
definition of "sunset", and you don't.

Jim



"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> And, as we have said for a number of years, none of these "non-day" times
>> have a legal definition within the FAR.
>
> Well, I don't know about that. "one hour after sunset" is used thusly in
> the FARs and and is therefore a kind of "non-day" that is defined in the
> FARs, though a name isn't given to it.

[Stan Prevost]

That hinges upon what the definition of "definition" is.

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> You only have a definition for "one hour after sunset" if you have a legal
> definition of "sunset", and you don't.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> And, as we have said for a number of years, none of these "non-day"
>>> times have a legal definition within the FAR.
>>
>> Well, I don't know about that. "one hour after sunset" is used thusly in
>> the FARs and and is therefore a kind of "non-day" that is defined in the
>> FARs, though a name isn't given to it.
>
>

[Doug]

Me, I just look out the window. If it's night out, I log it as night.

[Jose]

> You only have a definition for "one hour after sunset" if you have a legal
> definition of "sunset", and you don't.

This is only true if "sunset" is a term of art. Absent such a
term-of-art definition, the generally accepted definition of the English
word would be used. I suppose there could be a question as to whether
the sun's image needs to be fully, partially, or not at all visible
would come into play. The fact that the sun itself can be below the
horizon when it is still visible would likely be ignored in this case.

I suppose to take your position further, we'd need a definition of "one"
(this is non-trivial), and "after" (which is also non-trivial for
sufficiently energetic turbine engine spac...er... aircraft.)

The word "hour" would also need a definition. This one is easier, as
the "second" is precisely defined as a certain number of vibrations of a
cesium atom under specified conditions, and there are sixty of them...
wait - we need a definition of "sixty".

And we need a definition of all the words used in all the aforesaid
definitions.

Man, I wish I were a laywer.

Of course, then I'd have to study law. I can think of fewer more odious
occupations.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Scott D]

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:31:14 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>Just seems like a whacky requirement to me at this point in my flying
>career. :-)
>

Don't feel bad, I had a guy come to me with over 4000 x-c hours with
about 4500 total and wanted to do his initial commercial multi and we
had to drone through the sky for the 2 hour day and 2 hour night
requirements. I felt like a theft taking his money but we had to do
it to satisfy the requirements..

Scott D.

[Jose]

> Don't feel bad, I had a guy come to me with over 4000 x-c hours with
> about 4500 total and wanted to do his initial commercial multi and we
> had to drone through the sky for the 2 hour day and 2 hour night
> requirements. I felt like a theft taking his money but we had to do
> it to satisfy the requirements..

What did you do with him to take advantage of the time?

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Scott D wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 13:31:14 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Just seems like a whacky requirement to me at this point in my flying
>>career. :-)
>>
>
>
> Don't feel bad, I had a guy come to me with over 4000 x-c hours with
> about 4500 total and wanted to do his initial commercial multi and we
> had to drone through the sky for the 2 hour day and 2 hour night
> requirements. I felt like a theft taking his money but we had to do
> it to satisfy the requirements..
>
> Scott D.

I don't feel bad. It will be flying after all! :-) I'd just rather
spend the time and money practicing the new stuff like chandelles, etc.

Matt

[Stan Gosnell]

Jose > wrote in news:Qbhbf.3995$Lv.1888
@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net:

>> Yes, there is nautical twilight and astronomical twilight
>
> As Spock would say - "fascinating". What is the reason for all these
> different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
> definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)
>
> Jose

Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the
evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the
horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient,
under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly
distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of
evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest
stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of
moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of
civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight,
artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor
activities. Complete darkness, however, ends sometime prior to the
beginning of morning civil twilight and begins sometime after the end of
evening civil twilight.

Nautical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in
the evening, when the center of the sun is geometrically 12 degrees below
the horizon. At the beginning or end of nautical twilight, under good
atmospheric conditions and in the absence of other illumination, general
outlines of ground objects may be distinguishable, but detailed outdoor
operations are not possible, and the horizon is indistinct.

Astronomical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end
in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 18 degrees
below the horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the
morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the Sun
does not contribute to sky illumination; for a considerable interval
after the beginning of morning twilight and before the end of evening
twilight, sky illumination is so faint that it is practically
imperceptible.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

[Steph]

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> Jose > wrote in news:Qbhbf.3995$Lv.1888
> @newssvr23.news.prodigy.net:
>
>>> Yes, there is nautical twilight and astronomical twilight
>>
>> As Spock would say - "fascinating". What is the reason for all these
>> different twilights? (never mind, if the FAA can have two different
>> definitions of night, I might as well just go google myself. :)
>>
>> Jose
>
> Civil twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in the
> evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 6 degrees below the
> horizon. This is the limit at which twilight illumination is sufficient,
> under good weather conditions, for terrestrial objects to be clearly
> distinguished; at the beginning of morning civil twilight, or end of
> evening civil twilight, the horizon is clearly defined and the brightest
> stars are visible under good atmospheric conditions in the absence of
> moonlight or other illumination. In the morning before the beginning of
> civil twilight and in the evening after the end of civil twilight,
> artificial illumination is normally required to carry on ordinary outdoor
> activities. Complete darkness, however, ends sometime prior to the
> beginning of morning civil twilight and begins sometime after the end of
> evening civil twilight.
>
> Nautical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end in
> the evening, when the center of the sun is geometrically 12 degrees below
> the horizon. At the beginning or end of nautical twilight, under good
> atmospheric conditions and in the absence of other illumination, general
> outlines of ground objects may be distinguishable, but detailed outdoor
> operations are not possible, and the horizon is indistinct.
>
> Astronomical twilight is defined to begin in the morning, and to end
> in the evening when the center of the Sun is geometrically 18 degrees
> below the horizon. Before the beginning of astronomical twilight in the
> morning and after the end of astronomical twilight in the evening the Sun
> does not contribute to sky illumination; for a considerable interval
> after the beginning of morning twilight and before the end of evening
> twilight, sky illumination is so faint that it is practically
> imperceptible.
>
> --


And stars of the 6th magnitude ( the faintest naked-eye stars) become
visible at the zenith.........

[Scott]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 05:41:56 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> Don't feel bad, I had a guy come to me with over 4000 x-c hours with
>> about 4500 total and wanted to do his initial commercial multi and we
>> had to drone through the sky for the 2 hour day and 2 hour night
>> requirements. I felt like a theft taking his money but we had to do
>> it to satisfy the requirements..
>
>What did you do with him to take advantage of the time?
>
>Jose

Nothing really, We did go over the 530 and its functions but we
basically just punched a hole through the sky. He was already roughly
familiar with the plane as far as the characteristics so he was
comfortable with it.

Scott D.

[L. R. Du Broff]

I had an unusual one re X-C experience required for commercial. A guy I
worked with was ex air force. He had been a tanker pilot (KC-whatever,
tanker version of 707). Never bothered to get a civilian airman
certificate. Years later, at work, we were chatting, and he said he would
like to start flying again. We decided to go straight from student
certificate to commercial (this was prior to the major re-write of FARs).
We reviewed his military logbook, and we were not able to verify experience
requirement for X-C; could not find flights with landings more than x miles
from departure point.

Local FAA inspector reviewed logs and decided that if this guy could fly a
tanker on a trip of a few thousand miles, meet his refueling customers, and
get back to his point of origin for the only landing of the flight, he met
the intent of the requirment.

[Jose]

> Local FAA inspector reviewed logs and decided that if this guy could fly a
> tanker on a trip of a few thousand miles, meet his refueling customers, and
> get back to his point of origin for the only landing of the flight, he met
> the intent of the requirment.

Does this carry the force of law? That is, some time in the future, if
a different FSDO inspector questions the validity of flight experience,
can he (or can he not) retroactively find that he did not at that time
meet the regs requiring XC flights, and therefore all subsequent ratings
are void, and subsequent flights are illegal?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[L. R. Du Broff]

Jose > wrote in
:

>> Local FAA inspector reviewed logs and decided that if this guy could
>> fly a tanker on a trip of a few thousand miles, meet his refueling
>> customers, and get back to his point of origin for the only landing
>> of the flight, he met the intent of the requirment.
>
> Does this carry the force of law? That is, some time in the future,
> if a different FSDO inspector questions the validity of flight
> experience, can he (or can he not) retroactively find that he did not
> at that time meet the regs requiring XC flights, and therefore all
> subsequent ratings are void, and subsequent flights are illegal?
>
> Jose

I have no idea. The commercial certificate, with instrument rating, was
issued promptly. We all (my "student", the FAA inspector, and I) had a
good laugh over the situation. This all happened more than 30 years ago.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Jose wrote:
>> Local FAA inspector reviewed logs and decided that if this guy could fly a
>> tanker on a trip of a few thousand miles, meet his refueling customers, and
>> get back to his point of origin for the only landing of the flight, he met
>> the intent of the requirment.
>
> Does this carry the force of law? That is, some time in the future, if
> a different FSDO inspector questions the validity of flight experience,
> can he (or can he not) retroactively find that he did not at that time
> meet the regs requiring XC flights, and therefore all subsequent ratings
> are void, and subsequent flights are illegal?


If I were on a jury presented with that scenario, you can be sure I'd laugh the
FAA out of the room. I'd say anybody who made intercontinental flights for the
military certainly outtrumps the cross country experience *I* used to earn my
commercial license. Ony a pencil pusher would ignore the intent of the reg.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Daniel L. Lieberman]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> Jose wrote:
>>> Local FAA inspector reviewed logs and decided that if this guy could fly
>>> a
>>> tanker on a trip of a few thousand miles, meet his refueling customers,
>>> and
>>> get back to his point of origin for the only landing of the flight, he
>>> met
>>> the intent of the requirment.
>>
>> Does this carry the force of law? That is, some time in the future, if
>> a different FSDO inspector questions the validity of flight experience,
>> can he (or can he not) retroactively find that he did not at that time
>> meet the regs requiring XC flights, and therefore all subsequent ratings
>> are void, and subsequent flights are illegal?
>
>
> If I were on a jury presented with that scenario, you can be sure I'd
> laugh the FAA out of the room. I'd say anybody who made intercontinental
> flights for the military certainly outtrumps the cross country experience
> *I* used to earn my commercial license. Ony a pencil pusher would ignore
> the intent of the reg.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>
>

I missed the beginning of this thread but see FAR 61.73 which sets forth
rules for former military pilots.