Re: VFR On Top

[Marty Ross]

I thought that "VFR On Top" requires all of the same reports as regular IFR
(include altitude changes). Perhaps this is only for non-radar
environments?

I thought the ONLY time you didn't have to advise ATC of change in altitude
on an IFR clearance was when flying within an assigned vertical block on a
"cruise clearance".

Also, as if to add to the confusion, it appears to me that the term "IFR
Over The Top" is used by the FAR instead of "VFR On Top" (see FAR Part 1.1:
"definitions"). I only find reference to "VFR On Top" in the AIM (5-5-5).
Perhaps that's why it takes some controllers an extra second to catch on...

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
>
> "Angelo Campanella" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Right. Think of it as a single term, VFRONTOP, having special
> significance. In
> > particular, it means two things:
> >
> > 1-You are assuring that you will stay in vfr horizontal visbility
> condidtions so
> > that you assure your own collision avoidance.
> >
>
> Vertical as well, VFR cloud clearance applies.
>
>
> >
> > 2-The altitude you hold shall be 500 feet off the nearest thousand, you
> may
> > choose that altitude, but you must advise ATC of the altitude you choose
> and are
> > holding. (Hardly "VFR", isn't it?!)
> >
>
> You must be at an appropriate VFR cruising altitude for the direction of
> flight, there is no requirement to advise ATC of that altitude.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marty Ross" > wrote in message
et...
>
> I thought that "VFR On Top" requires all of the same reports as regular
> IFR (include altitude changes). Perhaps this is only for non-radar
> environments?
>
> I thought the ONLY time you didn't have to advise ATC of change in
> altitude on an IFR clearance was when flying within an assigned vertical
> block on a "cruise clearance".
>

VFR-on-Top changes nothing with regard to reports to ATC.


>
> Also, as if to add to the confusion, it appears to me that the term "IFR
> Over The Top" is used by the FAR instead of "VFR On Top" (see FAR Part
> 1.1: "definitions"). I only find reference to "VFR On Top" in the AIM
(5-5-5).
> Perhaps that's why it takes some controllers an extra second to catch
on...
>

FAR 91.179(a) uses the term "VFR conditions on-top".

[PaulaJay1]

Re:VFR on Top

>2-The altitude you hold shall be 500 feet off the nearest thousand, you may
> choose that altitude, but you must advise ATC of the altitude you choose and
are
> holding. (Hardly "VFR", isn't it?!)

Steve,
Cleveland App wants me at 3000 when I come in over Lake Erie from the north. I
cancel IFR if I can and stay high. Do you mean that I can request ( and get)
VFR on Top and then stay high and still be IFR? Can they refuse and insist I
came down or cancel?

Chuck

[Sydney Hoeltzli]

PaulaJay1 wrote:

> Cleveland App wants me at 3000 when I come in over Lake Erie from the north. I
> cancel IFR if I can and stay high. Do you mean that I can request ( and get)
> VFR on Top and then stay high and still be IFR?

Possibly. We've successfully gone over the Cleve. Class B airspace
after requesting "VFR on top" whereas IFR, they give you
the wide-around to the south. Waaaaaaay to the south.

> Can they refuse and insist I came down or cancel?

Yes; it's not a sure thing or a panacea.

One option which might work would be to call Cleveland TRACON at
a not-busy time, explain what you want to avoid and why, and ask
them what they suggest as your best strategy. I'm not sufficiently
familiar with their airspace, but, for a local example, flights
approaching from a certain range of headings around NNE to SSW will
be vectored across the Class B surface zone at around 4000-5000
ft. A bit too far to the E or W, though, and you get the
ol' wide-around. Might be something similar cooking at Cleveland.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Newps]

PaulaJay1 wrote:
> Re:VFR on Top

> Cleveland App wants me at 3000 when I come in over Lake Erie from the north.

I
> cancel IFR if I can and stay high. Do you mean that I can request ( and get)
> VFR on Top and then stay high and still be IFR?

If they approve OTP then you pick the altitude. If they want you lower
they will let you know.


Can they refuse and insist I
> came down or cancel?
>

ATC can always refuse your request to go OTP.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cleveland App wants me at 3000 when I come in over Lake Erie
> from the north. I cancel IFR if I can and stay high. Do you mean
> that I can request ( and get) VFR on Top and then stay high and
> still be IFR?
>

You're IFR whenever you're operating VFR-on-Top.


>
> Can they refuse and insist I came down or cancel?
>

Unless you cancel, they're going to direct you to come down at some point.
What else can they do? You can't maintain VFR-on-Top all the way to your
destination airport. If there's a solid undercast below you, the lowest you
can go is 1000' above the clouds. At some point you're going to be given a
hard altitude and as soon as that happens you're no longer operating
VFR-on-Top.