PDA

View Full Version : GPS SUbstitute for DME or ADF


S. Ramirez
August 12th 03, 02:11 AM
Someone in another forum said that it's okay to substitute certified GPS for
DME or ADF on an approach plate that depicts FAFs or intersecting points
using DME or ADF. I asked that person to back it up with a reference from
an official document like the FARs, AIM or something that the FAA puts out.
He can't do it. Does anyone know where this information may be located?

Thanks.

Simon

Steven P. McNicoll
August 12th 03, 02:35 AM
"S. Ramirez" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Someone in another forum said that it's okay to substitute certified GPS
for
> DME or ADF on an approach plate that depicts FAFs or intersecting points
> using DME or ADF. I asked that person to back it up with a reference from
> an official document like the FARs, AIM or something that the FAA puts
out.
> He can't do it. Does anyone know where this information may be located?
>

See AIM para 1-1-20.f.6.

http://www1.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html

Robert Henry
August 12th 03, 03:12 AM
AIM 1-1-21-f-5 through f-6 as published by ASA.

Confusingly, AOPA/Gleim lists these paragraphs under AIM 1-1-20, having
omitted the paragraph on FMS.

"S. Ramirez" > wrote in message
m...
> Someone in another forum said that it's okay to substitute certified GPS
for
> DME or ADF on an approach plate that depicts FAFs or intersecting points
> using DME or ADF. I asked that person to back it up with a reference from
> an official document like the FARs, AIM or something that the FAA puts
out.
> He can't do it. Does anyone know where this information may be located?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Simon
>
>

Ron Natalie
August 12th 03, 02:32 PM
"Robert Henry" > wrote in message news:92YZa.1142$Ue.1019@lakeread05...
> AIM 1-1-21-f-5 through f-6 as published by ASA.
>
> Confusingly, AOPA/Gleim lists these paragraphs under AIM 1-1-20, having
> omitted the paragraph on FMS.

Because it is 1-1--20. Your ASA book is obsolete. The FMS was moved into 1-2-1
as of Chagne 3 (August 7, 2003).

PaulaJay1
August 12th 03, 04:24 PM
In article >,
(Snowbird) writes:

>Someone is correct.
>
>The information is in the AIM, 1-1-21 f. 6.
>
>The regulatory documents authorizing this are the approved flight
>manual supplement installed by 337 along with the GPS, and
>a NOTAM published by the FAA several years back, and available
>from your local FSDO or from AOPA (Gen5, published 7-16-98). The
>NOTAM is the principle regulatory basis authorizing this. It
>is "effective until further notice".

Guess this aplies only to US. Does anyone know if it is alos true in Canada?

Chuck

Robert Henry
August 13th 03, 01:47 AM
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Robert Henry" > wrote in message
news:92YZa.1142$Ue.1019@lakeread05...
> > AIM 1-1-21-f-5 through f-6 as published by ASA.
> >
> > Confusingly, AOPA/Gleim lists these paragraphs under AIM 1-1-20, having
> > omitted the paragraph on FMS.
>
> Because it is 1-1--20. Your ASA book is obsolete. The FMS was moved
into 1-2-1
> as of Chagne 3 (August 7, 2003).
>

Well, add that to the privilege of membership. Comparably, the ASA update
notice is only through 16 July.

Snowbird
August 13th 03, 04:58 AM
(PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Snowbird) writes:
> >The information is in the AIM, 1-1-21 f. 6.

> >The regulatory documents authorizing this are the approved flight
> >manual supplement installed by 337 along with the GPS, and
> >a NOTAM published by the FAA several years back, and available
> >from your local FSDO or from AOPA (Gen5, published 7-16-98). The
> >NOTAM is the principle regulatory basis authorizing this. It
> >is "effective until further notice".

> Guess this aplies only to US. Does anyone know if it is alos true in Canada?

Very sorry, Chuck, no clue.

Regards,
Sydney

Andrew Boyd
August 13th 03, 07:14 PM
(PaulaJay1) wrote:

> Does anyone know if it is also true in Canada?

Yup. An enroute/terminal-approved IFR GPS can be
used to substitute for DME and ADF fixes during an
IFR approach in Canada. It's not anywhere in the
CARs, see your AIP. There was a "Supplement" that
came out in the last year or so that dealt specifically
with this issue, plus alternate planning.

--
ATP www.pittspecials.com

gwengler
August 13th 03, 10:05 PM
> > Does anyone know if it is also true in Canada?
>
> Yup. An enroute/terminal-approved IFR GPS can be
> used to substitute for DME and ADF fixes during an
> IFR approach in Canada. It's not anywhere in the
> CARs, see your AIP. There was a "Supplement" that
> came out in the last year or so that dealt specifically
> with this issue, plus alternate planning.

The ONLY waypoints that can NOT be substituted by approved GPS in
Canada are NDBs and VORs used for Missed Approaches (i.e. you must
have an NDB or VOR as the case may be or request different missed
approach instructions). Weird but true.

A.I.P. 3.16.4.3.1. says "GPS may be used to identify all fixes defined
by DME, VOR, VOR/DME and NDB, including fixes that are part of any
IAP, to navigate to and from these fixes, ..." So far, so good. Next
paragraph: "For these approaches [NDB and VOR approaches without a GPS
overlay], and for approaches based on a LOC for lateral guidance,
pilots shall not use GPS for missed approach guidance when the missed
approach procedure requires tracking to or from an NDB or VOR."

Gerd
T182 C-FDOW

Snowbird
August 14th 03, 02:08 PM
(gwengler) wrote in message >...

> A.I.P. 3.16.4.3.1. says "GPS may be used to identify all fixes defined
> by DME, VOR, VOR/DME and NDB, including fixes that are part of any
> IAP, to navigate to and from these fixes, ..." So far, so good. Next
> paragraph: "For these approaches [NDB and VOR approaches without a GPS
> overlay], and for approaches based on a LOC for lateral guidance,
> pilots shall not use GPS for missed approach guidance when the missed
> approach procedure requires tracking to or from an NDB or VOR."

Truly wierd. Any idea what the thinking is here?

Cheers,
Sydney

gwengler
August 14th 03, 07:50 PM
> The ONLY waypoints that can NOT be substituted by approved GPS in
> Canada are NDBs and VORs used for Missed Approaches (i.e. you must
> have an NDB or VOR as the case may be or request different missed
> approach instructions). Weird but true.
>
> A.I.P. 3.16.4.3.1. says "GPS may be used to identify all fixes defined
> by DME, VOR, VOR/DME and NDB, including fixes that are part of any
> IAP, to navigate to and from these fixes, ..." So far, so good. Next
> paragraph: "For these approaches [NDB and VOR approaches without a GPS
> overlay], and for approaches based on a LOC for lateral guidance,
> pilots shall not use GPS for missed approach guidance when the missed
> approach procedure requires tracking to or from an NDB or VOR."

To be totally clear, this applies only to approaches that do not have
a GPS overlay and it does not apply to GPS approaches, of course.

Gerd
T182 C-FDOW

jeff
August 20th 03, 10:51 AM
Simon
I had put a garmin 430 in my old plane, it was IFR certified, any ifr certified
GPS will have to have the supplement in the POH, but yes a IFR certified GPS can
be used in place of a VOR/DME , but you have to have back up equipment in the
plane, ie.. VOR, in case the GPS goes out. If you use a 430, it pretty much does
everything for you, tells you when to turn and to what heading, your not using
VOR's or DME so you cant use say, the approach shows your MAP at 14 DME from xxx
vor, but it will show you the MAP on the moving map so you know when your there,
it also will show you your FAF, pretty simple to use once you learn it. But yes
it can replace all the other stuff when its installed / certified for IFR

"S. Ramirez" wrote:

> Someone in another forum said that it's okay to substitute certified GPS for
> DME or ADF on an approach plate that depicts FAFs or intersecting points
> using DME or ADF. I asked that person to back it up with a reference from
> an official document like the FARs, AIM or something that the FAA puts out.
> He can't do it. Does anyone know where this information may be located?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Simon

Ron Natalie
August 20th 03, 04:04 PM
"jeff" > wrote in message ...
> Simon
> I had put a garmin 430 in my old plane, it was IFR certified, any ifr certified
> GPS will have to have the supplement in the POH, but yes a IFR certified GPS can
> be used in place of a VOR/DME , but you have to have back up equipment in the
> plane, ie.

Actually, all you need is an alternate that doesn't require the GPS. But if you
have a 430, you don't need any other equipment provided you can find a destination
that only requires VOR/LOC/GS. It's not redundancy for the 430, it's possible
systemic GPS failures they're guarding against.

Google