getting to Long Island (KISP) IFR from Michigan

[AaronK]

I'm considering a flight from Michigan to KISP on Long Island (some time
this winter) in our club's Skylane IFR. (armed with a Garmin 396 for
weather)

I'm wondering what kind of routing I'm likely to get around NYC. Coming
from Michigan I have a choice of Canada to Buffalo and down, or to Toledo
Ohio and then east. A friend said I should file to Pawling VOR, then
basically the LOVES2 arrival route, because I will likely get that anyway.

But when I do a Duats or Aeroplanner low altitude auto-route I get:

Starting from Toledo (KTOL) I get a route around south of Manhattan (SBJ,
EMPYR, NANCY, PROUD, JFK, DPK KISP)

1. anyone have experience at various altitudes (under FL120) from the west
to KISP area?

2. can you get flight following and get to ISP VFR? What would be the best
route and altitude for that? (with no ice protection, I might need VFR for
altitude at my own discretion)

Thanks ... Aaron

[Peter R.]

AaronK > wrote:

> I'm wondering what kind of routing I'm likely to get around NYC. Coming
> from Michigan I have a choice of Canada to Buffalo and down, or to Toledo
> Ohio and then east. A friend said I should file to Pawling VOR, then
> basically the LOVES2 arrival route, because I will likely get that anyway.

The two times I flew from Buffalo, NY, to Farmingdale airport on the island
that route was more or less the route I received. Pawling, then over
Connecticut near Bridgeport and south over the Long Island Sound.

> But when I do a Duats or Aeroplanner low altitude auto-route I get:
>
> Starting from Toledo (KTOL) I get a route around south of Manhattan (SBJ,
> EMPYR, NANCY, PROUD, JFK, DPK KISP)

You can certainly try to file this. Coming from Islip back to upstate NY
one time I received direct JFK, then northwest over Manhattan and on up.
It was a very scenic flight, as the sun was down and it was evening rush
hour down below.

> 1. anyone have experience at various altitudes (under FL120) from the west
> to KISP area?

NY will most likely begin bringing you down from whatever altitude at which
you are cruising to around 4,000 feet or lower after Pawling. This can be
a problem for you, however, given the fact that you will be crossing the
Long Island Sound. I have requested to remain as high as ATC could allow
while crossing, using the excuse that I am a single engine without
flotation gear. Both times I did this I was allowed to remain at 5,000
until reaching Long Island.

> 2. can you get flight following and get to ISP VFR? What would be the best
> route and altitude for that? (with no ice protection, I might need VFR for
> altitude at my own discretion)

Sure you could. If you stay to the north and out of class B airspace, you
should be able to cruise at an altitude of your choosing. What altitude?
The higher the better when crossing the Sound, IMO.

Be extra vigilant when scanning for traffic (VFR or in VMC when IFR), as
there are a lot of airplanes over a relatively small area near NY. Don't
be comforted by being IFR. I have personally encountered an aircraft
crossing just below me when approaching Teterboro that apparently didn't
have his transponder on (no traffic call by ATC and it did not appear on my
TIS). My aviation mentor told me a similar story when he was flying an
MU-2 on approach into Teterboro.

--
Peter

[Marco Leon]

Agree with all of Peter's recommendations. A couple of additions. I've been
getting 6000 ft. as per the expected altitudes on the Pawling Two Arrival.
If you take the southerly route, then you may get a clearance over
Robbinsville (RBV) VOR then vectors to JFK then direct. I'm basing this on a
clearance I received from KUKT (Quakertown, PA) a while back. Another
possibility to both of these would be ALB TRESA CMK BDR direct.

Your altitude over the Long Island Sound will most likely depend upon the
KLGA arrival patterns that sometimes go over that area. I don't know enough
about it to give specifics. Actually, the arrival patterns for the three
Class B airports pretty much drive what clearance you will get and therefore
make them harder to predict. I remember someone posting a while back that
they called the NY TRACON for routing advice and was told something to the
same effect.

I'd file the more direct southerly route and brief myself on the Pawling Two
Arrival just to be ready. In the meantime, monitor FlightAware to see actual
routes into the area. NY arrivals are like a box of chocolate...

Safe flying,

Marco Leon

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> AaronK > wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering what kind of routing I'm likely to get around NYC. Coming
> > from Michigan I have a choice of Canada to Buffalo and down, or to
Toledo
> > Ohio and then east. A friend said I should file to Pawling VOR, then
> > basically the LOVES2 arrival route, because I will likely get that
anyway.
>
> The two times I flew from Buffalo, NY, to Farmingdale airport on the
island
> that route was more or less the route I received. Pawling, then over
> Connecticut near Bridgeport and south over the Long Island Sound.
>
> > But when I do a Duats or Aeroplanner low altitude auto-route I get:
> >
> > Starting from Toledo (KTOL) I get a route around south of Manhattan
(SBJ,
> > EMPYR, NANCY, PROUD, JFK, DPK KISP)
>
> You can certainly try to file this. Coming from Islip back to upstate NY
> one time I received direct JFK, then northwest over Manhattan and on up.
> It was a very scenic flight, as the sun was down and it was evening rush
> hour down below.
>
> > 1. anyone have experience at various altitudes (under FL120) from the
west
> > to KISP area?
>
> NY will most likely begin bringing you down from whatever altitude at
which
> you are cruising to around 4,000 feet or lower after Pawling. This can be
> a problem for you, however, given the fact that you will be crossing the
> Long Island Sound. I have requested to remain as high as ATC could allow
> while crossing, using the excuse that I am a single engine without
> flotation gear. Both times I did this I was allowed to remain at 5,000
> until reaching Long Island.
>
> > 2. can you get flight following and get to ISP VFR? What would be the
best
> > route and altitude for that? (with no ice protection, I might need VFR
for
> > altitude at my own discretion)
>
> Sure you could. If you stay to the north and out of class B airspace, you
> should be able to cruise at an altitude of your choosing. What altitude?
> The higher the better when crossing the Sound, IMO.
>
> Be extra vigilant when scanning for traffic (VFR or in VMC when IFR), as
> there are a lot of airplanes over a relatively small area near NY. Don't
> be comforted by being IFR. I have personally encountered an aircraft
> crossing just below me when approaching Teterboro that apparently didn't
> have his transponder on (no traffic call by ATC and it did not appear on
my
> TIS). My aviation mentor told me a similar story when he was flying an
> MU-2 on approach into Teterboro.
>
> --
> Peter



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[AaronK]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone. Flightaware.com is great! Didn't
know about that one.

I really don't want to get vectors out over the water south of NYC. Maybe
the Buffalo route is more likely to get some kind of routing over the sound.

One trick I've used to help avoid over water routing around the great lakes
is this. I file two flight plans, the first being to a destination that
gets me past the lakes, then when I get close to my first destination, I
pick up my second clearance in the air and continue. This gets me a
gauranteed L shaped flight plan.

But with icing, lots of traffic/ATC and over water possibilities, NYC area
is a bit dawnting. I think if I shoot for good VFR conditons in the NYC
area, I'll have more options open.

One more question, are there a few "gates" approaching NYC are that I should
be farminiar with? ... Aaron

[Roy Smith]

AaronK > wrote:
> One trick I've used to help avoid over water routing around the great lakes
> is this. I file two flight plans, the first being to a destination that
> gets me past the lakes, then when I get close to my first destination, I
> pick up my second clearance in the air and continue. This gets me a
> gauranteed L shaped flight plan.

No reason you can't do that here. File to Bridgeport. NY Tracon runs
both BDR and ISP; once you get into NY territory, getting a reroute
should be pretty simple (and will probably just be vectors). Stay
away from DXR and HPN, that's a really busy sector and unusual
requests may be harder to accomodate. A route that takes you over
Kingston or Pawling VOR (or anything north of that) will keep you in
airspace where the controller is probably pretty bored most of the
time.

[Marco Leon]

"AaronK" > wrote in message
...
[snip]
> One more question, are there a few "gates" approaching NYC are that I
should
> be farminiar with? ... Aaron

I don't claim to know all or even most of the gates but the ones I know
about are:

(From various directions)
- Dixie JFK CCC232 CCC ISP
- SBJ JFK DPK direct
- TRESA CMK BDR BELTT DPK
- LOVES BDR BELTT DPK
- CREAM CCC direct

I'm sure others that fly much more than I do can have more to add and/or
correct.

Marco Leon



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