De-icing

[Kobra]

Flyers,

I went to fly on Thursday and low and behold my baby was covered with a half
inch of snow and ice. I could brush off the top 1/4 inch of snow, but the
bottom 1/4 inch was ice that was welded to the airframe.

I remembered that an instructor told me back in my primary training, that
you could de-ice a plane with properly diluted anti-freeze bought at an auto
supply and sprayed on with a garden sprayer.

When I asked my A&P he said that "...people use all kinds of crap, but he
didn't recommend any of it because it was bad for the plane. He said it
could eat the paint and ruin rubber. He said even the de-icer that they
make for airplanes is bad for the plane and that he'd never put that "$hit"
on his plane.

Now I'm scared to de-ice my plane. This is all new to me as this is our
first winter out of our hangar. The owner raised the rent in the spring and
we raised our middle finger in defiance. (BTW, I'm going to start a new
thread on this hangar issue...it will be called "What would you pay?")

So how to you all de-ice your planes and are my mechanic's fear justified on
the use of auto anti-freeze?

Kobra

[Montblack]

("Kobra" wrote)
> I went to fly on Thursday and low and behold my baby was covered with a
> half inch of snow and ice. I could brush off the top 1/4 inch of snow,
> but the bottom 1/4 inch was ice that was welded to the airframe.


We had rain turn to snow last week. The rain hit our row of key'd mailboxes
out next to the street - and froze. Mailboxes were welded shut with ice.

We ended up filling a 1quart ziplock baggie full of super hot water. It was
so hot I had to wear mittens, which is fine because ...IT'S WINTER!!

I held the 'hot water bottle' ziplock baggie on the aluminum door (both were
about the same size) and presto, 30 seconds later the mail door opened - no
more ice.

Your task - somehow scale up this success story to work for you.


Montblack

[skym]

I'm interested in this also. I have a spray bottle filled with plain
old isopropyl alcohol bought at the local pharmacy. I use it to get
rid of frost if I'm parked somewhere away from my hanger. It works
great at removing the frost and light ice that has formed on the plane
while parked overnight.
Is there a problem with this?

[Viperdoc]

TKS deicing fluid is isopropyl alcohol and ethylene glycol (antifreeze). You
can spray it on a plane safely, including plexiglass, landing gear, props,
etc. I've also bought cheaper non aviation stuff from home depot, and mixed
it with hot water and sprayed it on the plane as well, which also works.

It will make a big slimy slippery mess of a hangar floor and it doesn't go
away or evaporate.

[Peter R.]

Kobra > wrote:

<snip>
> When I asked my A&P he said that "...people use all kinds of crap, but he
> didn't recommend any of it because it was bad for the plane. He said it
> could eat the paint and ruin rubber. He said even the de-icer that they
> make for airplanes is bad for the plane and that he'd never put that "$hit"
> on his plane.

I guess he wouldn't be too thrilled if my Bonanza, with its TKS weeping
wing anti-ice system, rolled into his shop.

Go here to read about the how it works and the de-icing solution this
system requires:

http://www.weepingwings.com/system.html


--
Peter

[Michelle P]

In article >,
"Kobra" > wrote:

> Flyers,
>
> I remembered that an instructor told me back in my primary training, that
> you could de-ice a plane with properly diluted anti-freeze bought at an auto
> supply and sprayed on with a garden sprayer.
>
Kobra,
Anti-Freeze is just that ANTI-freeze. It does not effectively melt ice.
It prevents it from freezing. Heated glycol will work. It is ithe heat
that melts the ice and the remaining glycol will prevent it from
re-freezing. The airlines use a variant of this method.

Alcohol will melt the ice layer by layer. Your best bet is heated
glycol. If this is not possible a un-heated glycol-alcohol mix.

Michelle P

[A Lieberman]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:19:24 -0600, Montblack wrote:

> We ended up filling a 1quart ziplock baggie full of super hot water. It was
> so hot I had to wear mittens, which is fine because ...IT'S WINTER!!

Don't do this on your plane.....

I thought it would be cool to wash my car in the winter with warm / hot
water in a bucket, and while I had nice and comfortable hands when washing,
come time when the car cooled down to freezing, the paint crazed from the
expansion from warm water, and contracted from the cold weather which
caused the crazing.

Allen

[Jay Honeck]

>> We ended up filling a 1quart ziplock baggie full of super hot water. It
>> was
>> so hot I had to wear mittens, which is fine because ...IT'S WINTER!!
>
> Don't do this on your plane.....
>> come time when the car cooled down to freezing, the paint crazed from the
> expansion from warm water, and contracted from the cold weather which
> caused the crazing.

Hmmm. Isn't this EXACTLY the procedure Hai Longworth described using on her
newly painted Cardinal?

Hai?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Darrel Toepfer]

A Lieberman wrote:
> Montblack wrote:
>
>> We ended up filling a 1quart ziplock baggie full of super hot water. It was
>> so hot I had to wear mittens, which is fine because ...IT'S WINTER!!
>
> Don't do this on your plane.....
>
> I thought it would be cool to wash my car in the winter with warm / hot
> water in a bucket, and while I had nice and comfortable hands when washing,
> come time when the car cooled down to freezing, the paint crazed from the
> expansion from warm water, and contracted from the cold weather which
> caused the crazing.

Your going flying which removes the liquid stuff, same way I did to
unfreeze my car in a Colorado 22 incher. You go drive, don't let it sit
there and refreeze, duh...

[Mike Spera]

>>We ended up filling a 1quart ziplock baggie full of super hot water. It was
>>so hot I had to wear mittens, which is fine because ...IT'S WINTER!!
>
>
> Don't do this on your plane.....
>
> I thought it would be cool to wash my car in the winter with warm / hot
> water in a bucket, and while I had nice and comfortable hands when washing,
> come time when the car cooled down to freezing, the paint crazed from the
> expansion from warm water, and contracted from the cold weather which
> caused the crazing.
>
> Allen

As a (former) painter, I offer that the reason the paint crazed may have
had something to do with the paint film depth. If paints are applied in
the recommended thickness, they are much less likely to craze from rapid
temperature change. Add another paint job and/or multiple coats of clear
and crazing becomes much more likely. Also, improper substrate
preparation will allow crazing over time and accelerate with rapid
temperature change.

When we used to do custom paint jobs in the 70s, we would cool the
finish down gradually on a completed vehicle. We would go from shop temp
of 68 degrees to an unheated stall at 45 or so for about 10- 20 minutes.
After that, it was out to the open. Never had one craze.

I did have a guitar paint job I did craze after a night out in the car
at zero. Again, 40 coats of clear lacquer will do that.

Mike

[john smith]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> TKS deicing fluid is isopropyl alcohol and ethylene glycol (antifreeze). You
> can spray it on a plane safely, including plexiglass, landing gear, props,
> etc. I've also bought cheaper non aviation stuff from home depot, and mixed
> it with hot water and sprayed it on the plane as well, which also works.


What is it you purchase from HD?

[George Patterson]

Montblack wrote:

> Your task - somehow scale up this success story to work for you.

They tried something similar on a school 150 at Kupper about 20 years ago. I
think it involved more like putting it in a heated hangar until things melted.
Worked like a charm -- until they got about 1,000' off the ground. That melted
snow re-froze and welded the ailerons in the neutral position. They made their
way through the pattern by opening doors to turn. When they got down, they stayed.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Mike Rapoport]

Use propylene glycol commonly sold as "RV antifreeze" it is non corrosive
and non toxic.

Mike
MU-2


"Kobra" > wrote in message
...
> Flyers,
>
> I went to fly on Thursday and low and behold my baby was covered with a
> half inch of snow and ice. I could brush off the top 1/4 inch of snow,
> but the bottom 1/4 inch was ice that was welded to the airframe.
>
> I remembered that an instructor told me back in my primary training, that
> you could de-ice a plane with properly diluted anti-freeze bought at an
> auto supply and sprayed on with a garden sprayer.
>
> When I asked my A&P he said that "...people use all kinds of crap, but he
> didn't recommend any of it because it was bad for the plane. He said it
> could eat the paint and ruin rubber. He said even the de-icer that they
> make for airplanes is bad for the plane and that he'd never put that
> "$hit" on his plane.
>
> Now I'm scared to de-ice my plane. This is all new to me as this is our
> first winter out of our hangar. The owner raised the rent in the spring
> and we raised our middle finger in defiance. (BTW, I'm going to start a
> new thread on this hangar issue...it will be called "What would you pay?")
>
> So how to you all de-ice your planes and are my mechanic's fear justified
> on the use of auto anti-freeze?
>
> Kobra
>

[City Dweller]

I am curious about it also, and want to know what people who own composite
airplanes do about that nasty ice crust .

How about applying a stream of hot air (a hair drier-type device)?

Please advise!

-- City Dweller

"Kobra" > wrote in message
...
> Flyers,
>
> I went to fly on Thursday and low and behold my baby was covered with a
> half inch of snow and ice. I could brush off the top 1/4 inch of snow,
> but the bottom 1/4 inch was ice that was welded to the airframe.
>
> I remembered that an instructor told me back in my primary training, that
> you could de-ice a plane with properly diluted anti-freeze bought at an
> auto supply and sprayed on with a garden sprayer.
>
> When I asked my A&P he said that "...people use all kinds of crap, but he
> didn't recommend any of it because it was bad for the plane. He said it
> could eat the paint and ruin rubber. He said even the de-icer that they
> make for airplanes is bad for the plane and that he'd never put that
> "$hit" on his plane.
>
> Now I'm scared to de-ice my plane. This is all new to me as this is our
> first winter out of our hangar. The owner raised the rent in the spring
> and we raised our middle finger in defiance. (BTW, I'm going to start a
> new thread on this hangar issue...it will be called "What would you pay?")
>
> So how to you all de-ice your planes and are my mechanic's fear justified
> on the use of auto anti-freeze?
>
> Kobra
>

[Longworth]

Jay,
No, it is not 'exactly' the procedure that we have used. We use
'hot' not 'super hot' water from the tap. The water only needs to be
warm enough to melt the ice and snow. The bag of 'hot' water typically
rests on the ice/snow layer(not directly on the paint surface) until
it softens and can be pushed off with a squeeze blade. Sudden and
extreme change in temperatures is not good for any material. Very thin
or improperly cured paint would be more sucesptible to crazing
especially if the hot water is sprayed or splashed directly.

Hai Longworth

[Matt Whiting]

City Dweller wrote:
> I am curious about it also, and want to know what people who own composite
> airplanes do about that nasty ice crust .
>
> How about applying a stream of hot air (a hair drier-type device)?
>
> Please advise!

The danger here is that the water will run and refreeze somewhere else.
It is better to mix something with it that won't allow it to refreeze.


Matt

[Jay Honeck]

> No, it is not 'exactly' the procedure that we have used.

Whew!

I had nightmarish visions of your beautiful new paint sloughing off onto the
tarmac...

;-)

Speaking of which: Where *are* those pix for the Rogues Gallery?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Viperdoc]

I bought the cheapest pink antifreeze ( which I believe is used for filling
outdoor sprinklers, etc. It consisted of ethylene glycol and water, without
the isopropanol, but still does the job as deicing fluid, although I
wouldn't put it in the TKS tank of my plane.

[Mike Rapoport]

The pink stuff is usually propylene glycol It is sold as "RV antifreeze"
and can be used in drinking water systems and is non corrosive.

Mike
MU-2


"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>I bought the cheapest pink antifreeze ( which I believe is used for filling
>outdoor sprinklers, etc. It consisted of ethylene glycol and water, without
>the isopropanol, but still does the job as deicing fluid, although I
>wouldn't put it in the TKS tank of my plane.
>
>

[Newps]

Viperdoc wrote:
> I bought the cheapest pink antifreeze ( which I believe is used for filling
> outdoor sprinklers,

Outdoor sprinklers are filled with air in the winter. You must live
down south.

[George Patterson]

Newps wrote:

> Outdoor sprinklers are filled with air in the winter.

Not all, by any means. When I worked for Grinnel Fire Protection, we frequently
designed sprinkler systems which used anti-freeze. These were closed-head
systems. The water was shut off at the main valve and the system drained. There
was a filler port at the top of the system, and it was filled with anti-freeze.
Then the water was turned back on.

If a fire occurred, one or more heads would blow, the anti-freeze would drain
out the open heads, and water would follow from the mains. After the fire was
out, the system had to be drained before it froze.

This type of system was very popular as an outside branch of a larger inside
system; for example, a few heads providing protection for an outside truck
loading dock.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Longworth]

City Dweller wrote:

>
> How about applying a stream of hot air (a hair drier-type device)?
>

Last winter, after a nasty ice storm, we tried the hair dryer and it
was worthless. The wind just blew the tiny stream of hot air away. A
friend used a propane heater with a big heating duct and set up some
sort of a small hood to hold the hot air in, it worked for him.

Hai Longworth

[Viperdoc]

The pink stuff could be ethylene or propylene glycol, but it still works in
combination with hot water and a garden sprayer for deicing purposes. And
no, I don't live down south, but actually reside in Wisconsin, where ice and
flying in ice are concerns from October through May.

I actually stopped using it, since I now collect the overflow from filling
my TKS and spray it on the plane. However, the pink stuff does work, and is
a lot cheaper than car antifreeze, and doesn't contain the rust retardant,
although I don't know whether it would be a problem or not.

[Doug]

Alchohol, hmm, I think ISOPROPYL alchohol (there are three kinds of
alchohol) works well. So does car windshield washer fluid.

[John Clonts]

>Alchohol, hmm, I think ISOPROPYL alchohol (there are three kinds of
>alchohol) works well. So does car windshield washer fluid.

There are many many many kinds of alcohol.

[Longworth]

Doug wrote:
> Alchohol, hmm, I think ISOPROPYL alchohol (there are three kinds of
> alchohol) works well. So does car windshield washer fluid.

Doug,
We use isopropyl alcohol mixed for defrosting and for washing off
the slushes. By itself, it can not help to melt ice.

Hai Longworth

[Aaron Coolidge]

Kobra > wrote:
: So how to you all de-ice your planes and are my mechanic's fear justified on
: the use of auto anti-freeze?

I have a set of wing & tail covers by Kennon. The ice & snow just peels off.
Don't put the covers on when the wings are wet, though, as the fabric gets
stuck to the wing. Get a set of dark colored covers and the solar heating
will help clear the ice off the covers in no time - mine are maroon.
--
Aaron C.

[William Snow]

Well I have two solutions...no pun intended ;-)

1) Automobile windshield washer. Good to -25, cuts ice, and works. Best for
the light stuff. I like to heat it.

2) Isopropyl Alcohol, sprayed on to cut the ice then apply with a different
sprayer RV antifreeze bought at Home Depot. I hear one could mix these two
together 50/50 and get a pretty good third solution that cuts and prevents
refreeze in one application. I would heat this one carefully ;-)

3) Most importantly, be careful of refreeze. Hot water is not enough!!

Bill Snow, PE, CP, IA, ASEL

[soxinbox]

To clear up a few points.
Both Alcohol and antifreeze and deicing solutions ( as well as salt, and
almost any other substance that dissolves in water ) lower the freezing
point of water. So both alcohol and antifreeze both effectively melt the ice
by lowering the freezing point to below the current temperature. Since the
sprayed solution only contacts the top layer of the ice, it melts it away in
layers. The idea that one only melts and the other only prevents refreezing
is an OWT. Using a heated substance will melt it faster because you
simultaneously raise the temperature and lower the freezing point.

Some mentioned that spraying hot water only on the plane is prone to
refreezing in a dangerous way. Sage advice.

[Longworth]

A correction: what I meant was that isopropyl alcohol by itself is
very ineffective against large amount, solid block of ice. It has
lower freezing point than water so it will dissolve the ice layer by
layer very slowly. To loosen up large block of ice, we use hot (not
super hot) water in a plastic bag as mentioned earlier.

Hai Longworth