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View Full Version : Picking up a Clearance Airborne


Brad Z
August 22nd 03, 02:33 PM
I was departing Harford Co MD airport yesterday (0W3) enroute to
Chesterfield MD (FCI). 0W3 is a small non-towered field with no ground
communications to ATC or FSS. In trying to pick up my clearance on the
ground, I attempted to contact Leesburg FSS on the 1-800-WX-BRIEF. Due to
call volume, I was routed to Altoona FSS, which did not have access to my
flight plan and said that I needed to call Leesburg directly. So I called
the direct Leesburg number, and after staying on hold for 15 minutes
(meanwhile my cellphone battery charge is ticking away) I decided to hang
up, and get my clearance airborne.

The weather was VFR, albeit a bit hazy. Even though 0W3 is just north of
the ADIZ, I really wanted to get my clearance prior to departure just
because my route would eventually take me into the ADIZ.

I ultimately decided that I would depart VFR to the north, and circle if
necessary, until I was cleared enroute.

After taking off, I contacted the departure freq on the approach chart for
0W3. The controller chewed me out for departing VFR, made a comment that it
was unsafe, and sent me to another frequency. I tried the new freq, and
this controller chewed me out even further, refused to get my clearance, and
told me I should have gotten it on the ground. Explaining to my passenger
(1st time flying with me) that the ground was a better place to deal with
this than the air, I returned to the field to start making phone calls.

I finally got the number for Potomac approach, got my clearance. I was told
to call back right before I was airborne. (Is a cell phone now a require
piece of comm equipment in an IFR aircraft?)

I know the controllers were busy at that moment and that's why refused my
clearance. Why didn't they just issue a sqawk code with the instructions
"remain vfr"? Does it have to do with the nearby ADIZ? I guess my
confusion is this: I've picked up clearances in the air on numerous
occasions. I thought it made it easier for them because they did not have
to block out airspace for my departure. I've even been denied a clearance
through an RCO on the ground at a Charlotte area airport and asked to pick
it up airborne. While I didn't appreciate the on-air chew out from the
controller, I am not really upset, I just want to know how I should know
these things ahead of time. I haven't been able to find guidance from the
AIM or 7110.65, NOTAMS or otherwise.

Brad

Michael 182
August 22nd 03, 06:24 PM
Maybe this is a Potomac area thing. In Colorado I have never been refused a
clearance by Denver Approach. The worst that ever happened was about 5
minutes of circling while I waited for the controller to have enough time to
take care of me. The only time I ever get a clearance on the ground is if it
is IFR weather for the departure, and that is rare in Colorado.

Roger Tracy
August 22nd 03, 07:04 PM
I usually depart VFR and pick up my clearance after takeoff with departure
at the nearby Class C. Often I won't even have to ask for it .. when I
report
airborne they'll say .. "I'll bet you're looking for your clearance .. "
and give it
to me. I'm in Nebraska. Unless they've got a notice out about not picking
up clearances airborne .. what grounds would they have to chew you out?

Sounds to me like you've just got a bunch of overworked, crabby
controllers out there.



"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:Gls1b.173511$Oz4.45613@rwcrnsc54...
> Maybe this is a Potomac area thing. In Colorado I have never been refused
a
> clearance by Denver Approach. The worst that ever happened was about 5
> minutes of circling while I waited for the controller to have enough time
to
> take care of me. The only time I ever get a clearance on the ground is if
it
> is IFR weather for the departure, and that is rare in Colorado.
>
>

Sandy Mustard
August 22nd 03, 07:28 PM
I'm surprised you didn't just fly around the ADIZ. My flight planning
software says it would have only taken 5 minutes more.

Sandy Mustard

Brad Z wrote:
>
> I was departing Harford Co MD airport yesterday (0W3) enroute to
> Chesterfield MD (FCI).

> The weather was VFR, albeit a bit hazy. Even though 0W3 is just north of
> the ADIZ, I really wanted to get my clearance prior to departure just
> because my route would eventually take me into the ADIZ.
>
> Brad

Ron Natalie
August 22nd 03, 07:51 PM
"Sandy Mustard" > wrote in message ...
>
> I'm surprised you didn't just fly around the ADIZ. My flight planning
> software says it would have only taken 5 minutes more.
>
The most direct route not within the ADIZ puts you through several
frequently hot on weekends restricted areas and over the top of a nuke
plant (Calvert Cliffs).

Frankly, I'm not one to shy away from airspace on the direct path unless
someone can convince me some damn good reason why I should.
Back before all this paranoid horse****, I could go direct VKX to the
Tappan Z bridge almost directly over ADW, BWI, PHL and just west
of EWR without hardly a few degrees of heading change from the
various approach controls.

August 22nd 03, 08:22 PM
Brad Z > wrote:
: I was departing Harford Co MD airport yesterday (0W3) enroute to
: Chesterfield MD (FCI). 0W3 is a small non-towered field with no ground
: communications to ATC or FSS. In trying to pick up my clearance on the
: ground, I attempted to contact Leesburg FSS on the 1-800-WX-BRIEF. Due to
: call volume, I was routed to Altoona FSS, which did not have access to my
: flight plan and said that I needed to call Leesburg directly. So I called
: the direct Leesburg number, and after staying on hold for 15 minutes
: (meanwhile my cellphone battery charge is ticking away) I decided to hang
: up, and get my clearance airborne.

I flew a friend up to Ft. Meade, MD about a month ago, and had
similar problems getting through to FSS. Since the airport was in the
ADIZ and I had been warned not to even do a lap in the pattern without
getting a squawk, I didn't depart. I had to wait on hold for 20 minutes
to get to talk to someone and open an ADIZ VFR flight plan and get a
code... the whole time watching a dark rain cell come closer and closer.
Ended up getting clearance in time, and hauling-ass away from the rain.
That whole mess up there is completely unnecessary and pretty much just a
pain for everyone.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

Dan Luke
August 22nd 03, 09:50 PM
"Brad Z" wrote:
> After taking off, I contacted the departure freq on the approach chart for
> 0W3. The controller chewed me out for departing VFR, made a comment that
it
> was unsafe, and sent me to another frequency. I tried the new freq, and
> this controller chewed me out even further, refused to get my clearance,
and
> told me I should have gotten it on the ground.

I've had similar problems with the Houston TRACON, and they don't have the
excuse of a bunch of red hot TFR's, ADIZ's, etc. to deal with. They do NOT
like pilots picking up their clearances airborne off satellite airports.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

JimBob
August 22nd 03, 11:25 PM
>
> I know the controllers were busy at that moment and that's why refused my
> clearance. Why didn't they just issue a sqawk code with the instructions
> "remain vfr"? Does it have to do with the nearby ADIZ?

My guess is yes. They also could tell you to stand by while looking
for it. During a time between 9/11 and the introduction of the ADIZ,
I was able to pick up my clearance while airborne from BayBridge (W29)
to Frederick (FDK) while circling over the bay. It took the
controller a couple of minutes, but once she found it, everyting went
fine.

That was a big hassle you went through, call FSS, call another FSS,
take off, get chewed-out twice, land, call Potomac, take off again,
....

PA28Rdrvr
August 23rd 03, 03:53 PM
At my home airport, I always pick up my clearance from FSS via GCO. If
there is any reluctance or problem on the part of FSS with
coordinating/issuing a clearance from Center, I get very nervous. Recently
I asked for clearance and after few minutes, FSS guy came back on the line
and told me that he could not make contact with Center and recommended that
I depart VFR and pick up clearance once airborne. Very unusual. Weather
was VFR but lots of convective activity, sky broken. I departed and once
airborne, discovered Center was very very busy. I didn't know why. After
many radio calls and leveling off at appropriate VFR altitude, Center
responded to my calls. I picked up my clearance but not "as filed". Turns
out that Center radar was out of service (was not mentioned in FSS briefing
of notams) and thus pilots having to fly airways only and provide numerous
position/altitude reports to Center. So, after Center gave me my clearance,
I had to scramble to check charts to make sure I could comply before
accepting. Everything worked out fine but this falls into the "never again"
category for me. If I have trouble getting clearance on ground I will make
sure I understand why before making decision to pick up clearance in air.
It's amazing that I have become, over time, uncomfortable going VFR cross
country. bty, I enjoy lurking in this group and learning from you all.
"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> I usually depart VFR and pick up my clearance after takeoff with departure
> at the nearby Class C. Often I won't even have to ask for it .. when I
> report
> airborne they'll say .. "I'll bet you're looking for your clearance .. "
> and give it
> to me. I'm in Nebraska. Unless they've got a notice out about not picking
> up clearances airborne .. what grounds would they have to chew you out?
>
> Sounds to me like you've just got a bunch of overworked, crabby
> controllers out there.
>
>
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:Gls1b.173511$Oz4.45613@rwcrnsc54...
> > Maybe this is a Potomac area thing. In Colorado I have never been
refused
> a
> > clearance by Denver Approach. The worst that ever happened was about 5
> > minutes of circling while I waited for the controller to have enough
time
> to
> > take care of me. The only time I ever get a clearance on the ground is
if
> it
> > is IFR weather for the departure, and that is rare in Colorado.
> >
> >
>
>
>

Roy Smith
August 23rd 03, 05:29 PM
"PA28Rdrvr" > wrote:
> Weather was VFR but lots of convective activity, sky broken.
> [...]
> It's amazing that I have become, over time, uncomfortable going VFR cross
> country.

With lots of convective activity, I'd rather be VFR. I don't want to
fly into a CB, so VFR will allow me to visually navigate around the
buildups. IFR, I'm at the mercy of the controller as to where I go.
Once he puts me into a cloud, I can no longer see what's ahead. My
first hint that the benign-looking CU I flew into has turned into
something nastier may be my head bouncing off the cabin top.

Martin Kosina
August 23rd 03, 06:26 PM
> After taking off, I contacted the departure freq on the approach chart for
> 0W3. The controller chewed me out for departing VFR, made a comment that it
> was unsafe, and sent me to another frequency. I tried the new freq, and
> this controller chewed me out even further, refused to get my clearance, and
> told me I should have gotten it on the ground.

That's very odd indeed. Popups are one thing, but a filed flight plan
should have gotten you a better treatment. In fact, picking up the
clearance airborne (assumming you can maintain VFR, of course) is
usually doing the whole system a favor, as opposed to being cleared by
FSS with void time and blocking a relatively large chunk of airspace
for 10-15 minutes.

My guess is you simply ran into some a**holes that day, VFR is VFR, I
believe you are not creating any operational problem by asking for
your clearance that's on file. Or maybe the controllers believed you
were IMC because of some erroneous bases report they got earlier. If
the specific time/location is inconvenient for ATC, they can always
ask you to standby or maintain VFR to some fix/altitude. The scenario
where climbing will put you in the clouds bellow their MVAs can be
handled by declaring you can maintain own terrain separation up to
<blah> (but make sure you really can).

Greg Goodknight
August 23rd 03, 08:14 PM
"PlanetJ" > wrote in message
...
> Contact the local FAA Regional office and file a communication complaint.
> Inform the FAA(Airways Facilities) that insufficient ground communications
> exist at Harford and you would like to see a GCO(Ground Communication
> Outlet) or RCO(Remote Communication Outlet) installed at that location.
>
> Inform the FAA that a safety of flight issue exists due to poor ground
> communications. Also contact the congressional representative for that
area
> and tell him or her the same story. The FAA regional office for that area
I
> believe is the Eastern Region in New York City near JFK.
>

All excellent ideas, I hope "Brad Z" follows them. I've never had a problem
picking up a clearance after a VFR departure, but if this can't be tolerated
from a particular airport they need to provide a method to communicate
besides cell phones and it needs to be NOTAMed. Berating a pilot in the air
for following a legal and normally appropriate procedure doesn't advance
safety and security.

-Greg

>
> "Brad Z" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I was departing Harford Co MD airport yesterday (0W3) enroute to
> > Chesterfield MD (FCI). 0W3 is a small non-towered field with no ground
> > communications to ATC or FSS. In trying to pick up my clearance on the
> > ground, I attempted to contact Leesburg FSS on the 1-800-WX-BRIEF. Due
to
> > call volume, I was routed to Altoona FSS, which did not have access to
my
> > flight plan and said that I needed to call Leesburg directly. So I
called
> > the direct Leesburg number, and after staying on hold for 15 minutes
> > (meanwhile my cellphone battery charge is ticking away) I decided to
hang
> > up, and get my clearance airborne.
> >
> > The weather was VFR, albeit a bit hazy. Even though 0W3 is just north
of
> > the ADIZ, I really wanted to get my clearance prior to departure just
> > because my route would eventually take me into the ADIZ.
> >
> > I ultimately decided that I would depart VFR to the north, and circle if
> > necessary, until I was cleared enroute.
> >
> > After taking off, I contacted the departure freq on the approach chart
for
> > 0W3. The controller chewed me out for departing VFR, made a comment
that
> it
> > was unsafe, and sent me to another frequency. I tried the new freq, and
> > this controller chewed me out even further, refused to get my clearance,
> and
> > told me I should have gotten it on the ground. Explaining to my
passenger
> > (1st time flying with me) that the ground was a better place to deal
with
> > this than the air, I returned to the field to start making phone calls.
> >
> > I finally got the number for Potomac approach, got my clearance. I was
> told
> > to call back right before I was airborne. (Is a cell phone now a
require
> > piece of comm equipment in an IFR aircraft?)
> >
> > I know the controllers were busy at that moment and that's why refused
my
> > clearance. Why didn't they just issue a sqawk code with the
instructions
> > "remain vfr"? Does it have to do with the nearby ADIZ? I guess my
> > confusion is this: I've picked up clearances in the air on numerous
> > occasions. I thought it made it easier for them because they did not
have
> > to block out airspace for my departure. I've even been denied a
clearance
> > through an RCO on the ground at a Charlotte area airport and asked to
pick
> > it up airborne. While I didn't appreciate the on-air chew out from the
> > controller, I am not really upset, I just want to know how I should know
> > these things ahead of time. I haven't been able to find guidance from
the
> > AIM or 7110.65, NOTAMS or otherwise.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Doug
August 23rd 03, 10:58 PM
I once took off from Oceanside (north of San Diego), and had a very
hard time picking up my clearance. In this case it would have been
better to have opened on the ground. In my case, the inexperienced
controller didn't really know what to do with me, because the cloud
bases were below the MVA. She gave me a squawk code, but didn't open
my IFR flight plan and gave me a "suggested vector" to an altitude
that would take me into the clouds (in Class E airspace). I also
believe there are some accidents related to pilots flying around below
a low cloud deck while trying to open their IFR flight plan. I
remember a Citation in the Atlanta area.

Be careful out there.

PA28Rdrvr
August 24th 03, 12:59 AM
Hello, I understand what your saying but if your not sure you can remain vfr
you should file IFR. I have never had any difficulty in getting clearance
to deviate flight path to go around build-ups. In fact, during the flight
that I was referring to in my original post, the controller stated Radar
contact lost (he never had it to begin with) and for me to do what I needed
to do. I expect that he had no other traffic in the area. I was told to
report being re established on the victor airway, which I did. I have
strike finder and capability to download nexrad to the Garmin 430 which
helps some. I'm based in SE US so afternoon CBs are common and you sort of
learn to deal with them through experience. Best advice, as you said, stay
out of the build-ups.
"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "PA28Rdrvr" > wrote:
> > Weather was VFR but lots of convective activity, sky broken.
> > [...]
> > It's amazing that I have become, over time, uncomfortable going VFR
cross
> > country.
>
> With lots of convective activity, I'd rather be VFR. I don't want to
> fly into a CB, so VFR will allow me to visually navigate around the
> buildups. IFR, I'm at the mercy of the controller as to where I go.
> Once he puts me into a cloud, I can no longer see what's ahead. My
> first hint that the benign-looking CU I flew into has turned into
> something nastier may be my head bouncing off the cabin top.

Robert M. Gary
August 26th 03, 02:52 PM
Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
> "PA28Rdrvr" > wrote:
> > Weather was VFR but lots of convective activity, sky broken.
> > [...]
> > It's amazing that I have become, over time, uncomfortable going VFR cross
> > country.
>
> With lots of convective activity, I'd rather be VFR. I don't want to
> fly into a CB, so VFR will allow me to visually navigate around the
> buildups. IFR, I'm at the mercy of the controller as to where I go.
> Once he puts me into a cloud, I can no longer see what's ahead. My
> first hint that the benign-looking CU I flew into has turned into
> something nastier may be my head bouncing off the cabin top.

He can't put you anywhere, he can ask you to go somewhere. You can say
no. Besides he'll usually see the CU on his radar too. If he says fly
heading xyz you say, unable. In real life controllers tend to ask you
if a heading is ok when CUs are around. IFR does not mean you have to
fly into a TS.

Steven P. McNicoll
August 26th 03, 03:11 PM
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
>
> He can't put you anywhere, he can ask you to go somewhere. You can say
> no.
>

If you're going to refuse to enter clouds why are you operating IFR?


>
> Besides he'll usually see the CU on his radar too.
>

He can see precipitation on his radar, he can't see clouds.

gpsposter
August 26th 03, 06:05 PM
I agree. I was flying in FL last spring with some convective activity in
the area. ATC had me on a course directly into some dark looking clouds
that the strikefinder said were active. I asked ATC to deviate and they
told me to wait for a minute. They called me back in a minute and told me
to deviate at my discretion. I was just about to call them back and tell
them I was deviating whether they liked it or not (in nice terms of
course), and i would have.

"PA28Rdrvr" > wrote in
:

> Hello, I understand what your saying but if your not sure you can
> remain vfr you should file IFR. I have never had any difficulty in
> getting clearance to deviate flight path to go around build-ups. In
> fact, during the flight that I was referring to in my original post,
> the controller stated Radar contact lost (he never had it to begin
> with) and for me to do what I needed to do. I expect that he had no
> other traffic in the area. I was told to report being re established
> on the victor airway, which I did. I have strike finder and
> capability to download nexrad to the Garmin 430 which helps some. I'm
> based in SE US so afternoon CBs are common and you sort of learn to
> deal with them through experience. Best advice, as you said, stay out
> of the build-ups. "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "PA28Rdrvr" > wrote:
>> > Weather was VFR but lots of convective activity, sky broken.
>> > [...]
>> > It's amazing that I have become, over time, uncomfortable going VFR
> cross
>> > country.
>>
>> With lots of convective activity, I'd rather be VFR. I don't want to
>> fly into a CB, so VFR will allow me to visually navigate around the
>> buildups. IFR, I'm at the mercy of the controller as to where I go.
>> Once he puts me into a cloud, I can no longer see what's ahead. My
>> first hint that the benign-looking CU I flew into has turned into
>> something nastier may be my head bouncing off the cabin top.
>
>
>

Chip Jones
August 26th 03, 08:14 PM
"tscottme" > wrote in message
...
>
> Brad Z > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I was departing Harford Co MD airport yesterday (0W3) enroute to
> > Chesterfield MD (FCI). 0W3 is a small non-towered field with no
> ground
> > communications to ATC or FSS. In trying to pick up my clearance on
> the
> > ground, I attempted to contact Leesburg FSS on the 1-800-WX-BRIEF.
> Due to
> > call volume,
> <snip>
>
> I would have told the controller something like, "if I had known being
> elected to Congress would do me no good in times like this, I would have
> just remained Governor."
>
> --

LOL!

Either that or: "Potomac Approach, N123, this is the Eastern Regional
Administrator. Give me your operating initials over this frequency. Advise
you contact your NATCA representative. I will be calling the facility
management via commercial landline within 60 minutes to discuss your
on-the-job performance and certification remedy. Over..."


Chip, ZTL

vincent p. norris
August 27th 03, 12:45 AM
> Leaving Houston once, I encountered the opposite ends of the
>human spectrum on the same frequency. The first guy was doing
>everything he could to make sure I was having a bad day ....

Perhaps I've just been lucky, but in more than 25 years of flying IFR
as a civilian and a few years in the military before that, I can't
remember EVER being treated badly by a controller.

vince norris

Robert M. Gary
August 27th 03, 05:14 PM
Steven,
I'm not talking about clouds, I'm talking about thunderstorms. If the
thunderstorms are that embedded you'd better have your own radar,
storm scope available. ATC radar is usually ok is spotting
thunderstorms although they seem to also pick up false returns.

-Robert

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message t>...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > He can't put you anywhere, he can ask you to go somewhere. You can say
> > no.
> >
>
> If you're going to refuse to enter clouds why are you operating IFR?
>
>
> >
> > Besides he'll usually see the CU on his radar too.
> >
>
> He can see precipitation on his radar, he can't see clouds.

Hankal
August 28th 03, 12:30 AM
>Actually, you ARE talking about clouds. You wrote; "Besides he'll usually
>see the CU on his radar too." CU is cumulus, a type of cloud. Thunderstorm
>is TS or TSTM.

Why do you guys nitpick like that.
I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and lern from one another.
Hank

Rich Hare
August 28th 03, 12:40 AM
And WHERE did you get THAT impression?

Hankal wrote:

>
> Why do you guys nitpick like that.
> I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and learn from one another.
> Hank

Steven P. McNicoll
August 28th 03, 04:25 AM
"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
>
> Why do you guys nitpick like that.
> I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and lern from one
another.
>

If you accept everything you see here as fact what exactly have you lerned?

Brad Z
August 28th 03, 04:40 AM
How not to spell?

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Hankal" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Why do you guys nitpick like that.
> > I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and lern from one
> another.
> >
>
> If you accept everything you see here as fact what exactly have you
lerned?
>
>

Hankal
August 28th 03, 04:35 PM
>How not to spell?

I was wondering if you would pick that up. Learn.

John R. Copeland
August 28th 03, 09:49 PM
I expected Steven to use "lernt" in his reply.
---JRC---

"Hankal" > wrote in message =
...
> >How not to spell?
>=20
> I was wondering if you would pick that up. Learn.

PA28Rdrvr
August 28th 03, 10:19 PM
What's a nit?

Is it similar to a Tic terd?

Tic terd = excrement of a Tic. i.e. too small and insignificant for adults
to worry about.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Hankal" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Why do you guys nitpick like that.
> > I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and lern from one
> another.
> >
>
> If you accept everything you see here as fact what exactly have you
lerned?
>
>

Michael
August 28th 03, 10:50 PM
(Hankal) wrote
> >Actually, you ARE talking about clouds. You wrote; "Besides he'll usually
> >see the CU on his radar too." CU is cumulus, a type of cloud. Thunderstorm
> >is TS or TSTM.
>
> Why do you guys nitpick like that.
> I think this NG is for all of us to exchange ideas and lern from one another.

While Steve tends to be a bit abrasive, it's generally a mistake to
dismiss his comments as nitpicking.

If you have the capability to determine which clouds contain
convective activity and which ones don't (this means RADAR or sferics
- anything you download from a remote site merely tells you which ones
USED TO contain or not contain convective activity at the time the
data was sent) then you can reasonably operate IFR when T-storms are
present.

If you don't have that capability, then you really have to stay visual
at all times - and thus the question of "Why are you filing IFR if you
can't enter clouds?" becomes very valid.

Thus you tend to get very different perspectives from those who have
weather avoidance gear in the cockpit and those who don't.

Michael

Michael
August 28th 03, 11:10 PM
"Dan Luke" > wrote
> I've actually visited the Houston TRACON and talked to a couple of
> controllers about this issue. I received the very clear message that
> getting my clearance on the ground was the "right" way to do it (wink,
> wink).

My experience has been that getting a clearance in the air in the
Houston area is bad - but getting it on the ground by cellphone is
worse. Too many delays and 'accidental' disconnects.

In both cases, I find that it helps to do a few things. Remember, the
frequencies and phone lines are recorded.

I never get disconnected a second time when trying to get a clearance
by phone, because on the call back I always make it a point to mention
that someone hung up on me before. I figure the guy knows that if it
gets to his supervisor, well, once is an accident but twice is a
pattern.

I always make it a point to make my callup in a way that includes IFR,
as in: "N123 off Weiser, climbing through 1400, (looking for) IFR to
Somewhere." Of course the 'looking for' part is mumbled, and now the
controller has to look for my strip no matter what; not answering me
is really not an option because he's not really sure if I'm already
IFR or not. I know these guys often don't even bother answering the
guys who call for VFR flight following.

It's pretty sad that I have to do it this way, but I don't have much
choice.

When the weather is good enough for me to cover 20-30 miles VFR, I
don't even bother talking to approach. I simply wait until I'm out of
their airspace, and then call Houston Center. Much better service all
around.

As for the original poster - if a polite request for an IFR clearance
produced a refusal, a landing is in order followed by a phone call -
to the Tracon supervisor.

Michael

Hankal
August 29th 03, 12:23 AM
>If you don't have that capability, then you really have to stay visual
>at all times - and thus the question of "Why are you filing IFR if you
>can't enter clouds?" becomes very valid.

I do not have my 172 with any kind of weather or TS capability.
However I have been on some CX and storms have formed. I always have been
granted to change course. Here in South Florida we can leave when the weather
is very nice and an hour later TS have formed.
Most pilots state that we in Florida do not have IFR weather.
Hank

Dan Luke
August 29th 03, 01:31 AM
"Michael" wrote:
> My experience has been that getting a clearance in the air in the
> Houston area is bad - but getting it on the ground by cellphone is
> worse. Too many delays and 'accidental' disconnects.

Yep.

> I never get disconnected a second time when trying to get a
clearance
> by phone, because on the call back I always make it a point to
mention
> that someone hung up on me before. I figure the guy knows that if
it
> gets to his supervisor, well, once is an accident but twice is a
> pattern.
>
> I always make it a point to make my callup in a way that includes
IFR,
> as in: "N123 off Weiser, climbing through 1400, (looking for) IFR to
> Somewhere." Of course the 'looking for' part is mumbled, and now
the
> controller has to look for my strip no matter what; not answering me
> is really not an option because he's not really sure if I'm already
> IFR or not. I know these guys often don't even bother answering the
> guys who call for VFR flight following.
>
> It's pretty sad that I have to do it this way, but I don't have much
> choice.

Yes, there is no excuse for this.

> When the weather is good enough for me to cover 20-30 miles VFR, I
> don't even bother talking to approach. I simply wait until I'm out
of
> their airspace, and then call Houston Center. Much better service
all
> around.

I usually pick up my clearance over Beaumont on the way out, if at all
possible.

It's hard to believe that all this crap is not deliberate, if
unofficial, policy at the Houston TRACON.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

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