Another reason to fly yourself

[Paul kgyy]

"American Eagle said Thursday it will charge $1 each for a can of soda
and a bag of cashews on flights into and out of Los Angeles next month."

[three-eight-hotel]

I've always wondered... Why is it, everytime we jump on an airline,
for even a short one or two hour hop to a fairly close destination, we
are suddenly starving??? I'm guilty myself! I get in my seat, enjoy
my window-seat view of the take-off, and start looking for that food
cart to come around!!!

It's not like going to the movies... You can bring whatever you want
to eat on the plane, as long as it is within reasonable carry-on limits
and can't be used as a weapon!

[cwby-flyer]

I think its because the food distracts you from the other
unpleasantries associated with flying by Greyhound.

[three-eight-hotel]

LOL! ...Can't hear that two-year old screaming behind you if you are
vigorously crunching pretzels between your teeth!

[Peter R.]

Paul kgyy > wrote:

> "American Eagle said Thursday it will charge $1 each for a can of soda
> and a bag of cashews on flights into and out of Los Angeles next month."

Hmmm.. most FBOs I visit charge $1.25 or more for soda. Looks like
American Eagle is a good deal. ;-)

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> I've always wondered... Why is it, everytime we jump on an airline,
> for even a short one or two hour hop to a fairly close destination, we
> are suddenly starving???

In my case, it's because as a boy I was spoiled by flying on a Boeing 707
back in the early 1960s.

If I close my eyes I can still see it. Beautiful and friendly stewardesses
wearing Jackie Kennedy pillbox hats, white gloves, and serving real cuisine
on actual china plates, with real SILVER silverware. The gray-haired
captain sitting in his cockpit like a modern-day god, door wide open,
telling the flight engineer to step aside and let me through to see all the
instruments...

So, on the exceedingly rare occasions when I must suffer in the executive
mail tube, I start to salivate at the memory -- only to be handed some
triscuits...

I managed to catch the tail end of elegant train travel at that age, too.
When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come to
emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
weep.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Peter R. wrote:
> Paul kgyy > wrote:
>
> > "American Eagle said Thursday it will charge $1 each for a can of soda
> > and a bag of cashews on flights into and out of Los Angeles next month."
>
> Hmmm.. most FBOs I visit charge $1.25 or more for soda. Looks like
> American Eagle is a good deal. ;-)

Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost isn't
one of them. Not by a long shot.

[three-eight-hotel]

I worked, for a couple of years for a company that had a couple of
Beech 1900's it used to shuttle employees from one of it's facilities
to another... I'm nearly 6'2" and I had to bend completely forward to
walk through the cabin of this plane to take my seat, and still hit my
head half the time. Once we got to altitude (although we were only
going to be there for a few minutes, in most cases), the pilot would
slide a cooler, back down the aisle of the cabin. There would be
pastries and soft drinks, followed by a coffee thermos and foam cups.
Each row would grab their treat of preference and contiue sliding the
cooler and thermos backwards, down the aisle. Not quite the china
experience that you recall... ;-)

The cool part was, the wide open cockpit door... I would watch the
pilot and co-pilot going through all of their checklists, and stare
attentively out the front window as we broke through the marine layer
to land at SJC, runway lights a-flashing! I would love to be able to
land a gig like that!

Best Regards,
Todd

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
: Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost isn't
: one of them. Not by a long shot.

As far as *direct* operating costs, it's usually cheaper to fly yourself if
it's within 500nm. You know... about the same range as it's potentially feasible to
drive... :)

The indirect expenses and easily ignored as the fixed expenses of the "hobby."
Heh...

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Roy Page]

Well said Jay, a lot of us have been there and done that back in the days
that commercial flying was a sheer pleasure.
You should start a new thread on "In the good old days" and they were only a
few short years ago in many parts of the world.
Roy


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:6Qfof.630682$_o.346418@attbi_s71...
>> I've always wondered... Why is it, everytime we jump on an airline,
>> for even a short one or two hour hop to a fairly close destination, we
>> are suddenly starving???
>
> In my case, it's because as a boy I was spoiled by flying on a Boeing 707
> back in the early 1960s.
>
> If I close my eyes I can still see it. Beautiful and friendly
> stewardesses wearing Jackie Kennedy pillbox hats, white gloves, and
> serving real cuisine on actual china plates, with real SILVER silverware.
> The gray-haired captain sitting in his cockpit like a modern-day god, door
> wide open, telling the flight engineer to step aside and let me through to
> see all the instruments...
>
> So, on the exceedingly rare occasions when I must suffer in the executive
> mail tube, I start to salivate at the memory -- only to be handed some
> triscuits...
>
> I managed to catch the tail end of elegant train travel at that age, too.
> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come to
> emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
> weep.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jose]

> Well said Jay, a lot of us have been there and done that back in the days
> that commercial flying was a sheer pleasure.

It still can be, if you fly first class and pony up what it costs. Most
of us can't afford to do that. Bring back the "good old days" and you'd
have the good old choice - first class or nothing. Now we have another
alternative.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

Jose wrote:
> > Well said Jay, a lot of us have been there and done that back in the days
> > that commercial flying was a sheer pleasure.
>
> It still can be, if you fly first class and pony up what it costs. Most
> of us can't afford to do that. Bring back the "good old days" and you'd
> have the good old choice - first class or nothing. Now we have another
> alternative.
>
>

Ummmm... have you flown first class recently?

International first class -- you are probably right. Last time I did
that was in 1998 and it was definitely an experience to remember.
Domestic first class -- I fly that at least twice a year and it's not
that great. Just better seats. yeah you get a meal but it's not
anything like Jay describes. I use FF miles to upgrade -- would never
pay for it, because it's not worth it.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> I managed to catch the tail end of elegant train travel at that age, too.
> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come to
> emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
> weep.


I have an old friend who was flying on Aeroflot with his family many years ago
(before the fall of the Soviet Union). I guess they used any opportunity to
hone their skills because the pilot started doing some airwork along the way...
s-turns along a road, etc....

I've never experienced such a thing on an American airliner.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come to
> emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
> weep.

Maybe if you didn't have to pay for the tickets back then. Airfare from
Knoxville to New York then and now costs over $700. But $700 was half the cost
of a new car in the early 60s.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Jose]

> Ummmm... have you flown first class recently?

Ummm, yeah. NY to SF. Champaigne, china, crystal, metal (though not
silver) utensils including knives, a meal that would rival many
restaurants, cloth napkins, twice as much room as coach, maybe more,
attentive stewards and stewardesses, fresh baked chocolate chip cookies.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Greg B]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ummmm... have you flown first class recently?
>
> International first class -- you are probably right. Last time I did
> that was in 1998 and it was definitely an experience to remember.
> Domestic first class -- I fly that at least twice a year and it's not
> that great. Just better seats. yeah you get a meal but it's not
> anything like Jay describes. I use FF miles to upgrade -- would never
> pay for it, because it's not worth it.

I have flown in coach on one international flight. The other times I have
flown in business class. The coach seats for international flights are
bigger than the seats you get in coach for domestic but not quite as big as
domestic 1st class. I've flown 1st class several times on domestic flights
and I wouldn't pay extra for the little more room either, I get a 'free
upgrade' or us miles also.

I'm flying to Phoenix in January, the only thing I could find for the given
miles was 1st class from Minneapolis to Detroit and then to Phoenix. The
return trip is in coach.

-Greg B.

[three-eight-hotel]

>> attentive stewards and stewardesses

<in my Beavis and Butthead chuckle> - hehh, hehhh, you said
"stewardesses"... :-))

[[email protected]]

Jose wrote:
> > Ummmm... have you flown first class recently?
>
> Ummm, yeah. NY to SF. Champaigne, china, crystal, metal (though not
> silver) utensils including knives, a meal that would rival many
> restaurants, cloth napkins, twice as much room as coach, maybe more,
> attentive stewards and stewardesses, fresh baked chocolate chip cookies.
>

It may depend on the flight and the equipment. I did fly FC once on a
767 domestic and it was on par with international. Of course the flight
continued on to Zurich after I got off, so maybe it really should have
beenconsidered an international flight. Or maybe long nonstops in
widebodies are like that.

However first class on an MD-80 or 737 or A319 from your city to a
hub airport, then from the hub to your destination, is nothing special,
even though the sum of the flights is bicoastal.

[Brian]

Just rememeber that the cost of ticket is not the only expense in
flying commercially of GA.


Other expenses are:

Additional Rental Car expenses, often have to drive farther than if
flying GA.
Additional Hotel Expenses, Often will have to stay additional nights to
make Commercial Schedules work.
If you are a business flying multiple employees. then additional
Salaries and the above expenses can really add up.

Brian

[Marty from Florida]

I flew commercial from West Palm Beach to Kansas City MO a few months ago.
Got pulled aside for a random search, which was pretty stupid. I could have
knitted a knife with my hair and stabbed the person beside me with it. The
TSA is truly nuts, reflecting it's association with the newly formed office
of remarkably extreme paranoia (Homeland Security). They need to really
decide if a $ 450,000 Cirrus Sr-22 can do as much damage as a $ 39.00/day
Uhaul truck. I digress ...

All things considered, it took a huge amount of time messing around with TSA
nonsense, checking in and out, waiting in Atlanta for a 2.3 hour connection,
etc. I could have walked there. I feel great sorrow for today's airlines
(what's left of them). The former arrogance of large companies such as
Eastern Airlines has certainly caught up with American and Delta. They now
treat their clients as mini cash-cows. It's not pretty. I tried to get an
earlier flight that was leaving in minutes rather than the 2.3 hours and was
told to pony up cash. What a way to treat a customer. The only reason I had
to wait 2.3 hours is because of Delta's schedule that put me on the plane.

Anything under 7 or 8 hundred miles and I'll just fly myself. Better food,
much more fun, quicker when you add up all the time wasting.
Marty from Rainy Palm Beach Florida


> wrote in message
...
> In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
> : Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost isn't
> : one of them. Not by a long shot.
>
> As far as *direct* operating costs, it's usually cheaper to fly yourself
if
> it's within 500nm. You know... about the same range as it's potentially
feasible to
> drive... :)
>
> The indirect expenses and easily ignored as the fixed expenses of the
"hobby."
> Heh...
>
> -Cory
>
> --
>
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * Cory Papenfuss *
> * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
> * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Otis Winslow]

I get on earlier flights all the time on Continental if they
have a seat and I've never been asked to pay extra. I go through
Houston to the midwest out of MIA.



Marty from Florida wrote:
> I flew commercial from West Palm Beach to Kansas City MO a few months ago.
> Got pulled aside for a random search, which was pretty stupid. I could have
> knitted a knife with my hair and stabbed the person beside me with it. The
> TSA is truly nuts, reflecting it's association with the newly formed office
> of remarkably extreme paranoia (Homeland Security). They need to really
> decide if a $ 450,000 Cirrus Sr-22 can do as much damage as a $ 39.00/day
> Uhaul truck. I digress ...
>
> All things considered, it took a huge amount of time messing around with TSA
> nonsense, checking in and out, waiting in Atlanta for a 2.3 hour connection,
> etc. I could have walked there. I feel great sorrow for today's airlines
> (what's left of them). The former arrogance of large companies such as
> Eastern Airlines has certainly caught up with American and Delta. They now
> treat their clients as mini cash-cows. It's not pretty. I tried to get an
> earlier flight that was leaving in minutes rather than the 2.3 hours and was
> told to pony up cash. What a way to treat a customer. The only reason I had
> to wait 2.3 hours is because of Delta's schedule that put me on the plane.
>
> Anything under 7 or 8 hundred miles and I'll just fly myself. Better food,
> much more fun, quicker when you add up all the time wasting.
> Marty from Rainy Palm Beach Florida
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
>>: Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost isn't
>>: one of them. Not by a long shot.
>>
>>As far as *direct* operating costs, it's usually cheaper to fly yourself
>
> if
>
>>it's within 500nm. You know... about the same range as it's potentially
>
> feasible to
>
>>drive... :)
>>
>>The indirect expenses and easily ignored as the fixed expenses of the
>
> "hobby."
>
>>Heh...
>>
>>-Cory
>>
>>--
>>
>>************************************************** ***********************
>>* Cory Papenfuss *
>>* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
>>* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
>>************************************************** ***********************
>>
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

>> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come
>> to emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is
>> to weep.
>
> Maybe if you didn't have to pay for the tickets back then. Airfare from
> Knoxville to New York then and now costs over $700. But $700 was half the
> cost of a new car in the early 60s.

Oh, I intellectually *know* all that. Flying was exclusive, literally,
back then, and is much more accessible to the common man today. In that
regard, it's all good.

But, hell, go back to the 1930s. To fly on the Pan Am Clippers from the
U.S. to Japan cost the equivalent of $10,000 US dollars -- at the height of
the Great Depression! Now *that* was exclusive!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Carl Orton]

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've always wondered... Why is it, everytime we jump on an airline,
> for even a short one or two hour hop to a fairly close destination, we
> are suddenly starving??? I'm guilty myself! I get in my seat, enjoy
> my window-seat view of the take-off, and start looking for that food
> cart to come around!!!
Pavlovian response!!!

[Bob Fry]

Was this Intel by chance?

[cjcampbell]

Nowadays the choice seems to be coach or nothing. Or, really, prison
transport or nothing.

Still, when I come back home next November, there is no way I am going
to make the trans-Pacific flight in coach. Urgh. I will pony up the
difference to at least go business class. Even then, if I start to get
a little homesick, just thinking about the flight home cures it real
fast.

[cjcampbell]

Nowadays the choice seems to be coach or nothing. Or, really, prison
transport or nothing.

Still, when I come back home next November, there is no way I am going
to make the trans-Pacific flight in coach. Urgh. I will pony up the
difference to at least go business class. Even then, if I start to get
a little homesick, just thinking about the flight home cures it real
fast.

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Oh, I intellectually *know* all that. Flying was exclusive, literally,
> back then, and is much more accessible to the common man today. In that
> regard, it's all good.

Well, for half the cost of a new car, you'd be able to do better than that
today. Just not on a major carrier.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
...
> In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
> : Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost isn't
> : one of them. Not by a long shot.
>
> As far as *direct* operating costs, it's usually cheaper to fly yourself
> if
> it's within 500nm. You know... about the same range as it's potentially
> feasible to
> drive... :)


A days work back in September by TN Bonanza.

Montrose to Wichita Falls - 530nm, 3hrs 5 min - Depart 5:30AM MDT, arrive
9:35AM CDT

Work with lawyers for upcoming developments, then contractors for
negotiations over lunch (I pop for the tab).

Depart Wichita Falls for Victoria, Kansas at 1:30PM, 305nm, 1 hr, 35 min -
arrive Hays at 3:00PM

Attend closings for two properties (my wife at one, myself at another) from
3:30 to 5:00PM

Depart Victoria at 6:00PM CDT, for Montrose (420nm), arrive Montrose at
7:30PM MDT.

A 14 hour day, but one that covered 1255nm in about 6 hours flying time.

Try that by car or even commuter airlines.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I managed to catch the tail end of elegant train travel at that age, too.
>> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come
>> to
>> emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
>> weep.
>
>
> I have an old friend who was flying on Aeroflot with his family many years
> ago (before the fall of the Soviet Union). I guess they used any
> opportunity to hone their skills because the pilot started doing some
> airwork along the way... s-turns along a road, etc....
>
> I've never experienced such a thing on an American airliner.
>
I remember a story years ago about how is was not unusual to have livestock
in the cabin on domestic flights in the old USSR.

Now let me just say I have seen animals onboard airliners...

[three-eight-hotel]

Yes.

Do you work for Intel?

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning George Patterson > wrote:
: Jay Honeck wrote:

:> When you contrast those days with the Russian Aeroflot model we've come to
:> emulate (just think -- we used to make fun of them!) since then, it is to
:> weep.

: Maybe if you didn't have to pay for the tickets back then. Airfare from
: Knoxville to New York then and now costs over $700.

Yes! Back in 1977 (after my parent's divorce) my little brother & I flew
on all the great airlines from Boston to Tampa. You know, Eastern, People
Express, Piedmont... The tix were about $1200 round trip, each, for one
8-year old and one 4-year old. No non-stops. I think it took 8 hours
door-to-door for many flights (but forgive me if my memory is not perfect;
after all, I was 8 years old).
--
Aaron C

[Jimmy B.]

Paul kgyy wrote:
> "American Eagle said Thursday it will charge $1 each for a can of soda
> and a bag of cashews on flights into and out of Los Angeles next month."
>
Why? Are you only charging $0.50 to your customers?

<runs away laughing>

[Cal Vanize]

three-eight-hotel wrote:

>>>attentive stewards and stewardesses
>
>
> <in my Beavis and Butthead chuckle> - hehh, hehhh, you said
> "stewardesses"... :-))


or is it flight ascendants.

[Jay Honeck]

> Yes! Back in 1977 (after my parent's divorce) my little brother & I flew
> on all the great airlines from Boston to Tampa. You know, Eastern, People
> Express, Piedmont... The tix were about $1200 round trip, each, for one
> 8-year old and one 4-year old. No non-stops. I think it took 8 hours
> door-to-door for many flights (but forgive me if my memory is not perfect;
> after all, I was 8 years old).

I'm not sure I'd lump "People's Express" and "Piedmont" under the banner of
"Great Airlines."

Truly great airlines were Pan Am, TWA, United, and American. By '77 they
had already sown their seeds of decline, although no one knew it at the
time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <%aUof.652255$xm3.217070@attbi_s21>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Yes! Back in 1977 (after my parent's divorce) my little brother & I flew
> > on all the great airlines from Boston to Tampa. You know, Eastern, People
> > Express, Piedmont... The tix were about $1200 round trip, each, for one
> > 8-year old and one 4-year old. No non-stops. I think it took 8 hours
> > door-to-door for many flights (but forgive me if my memory is not perfect;
> > after all, I was 8 years old).
>
> I'm not sure I'd lump "People's Express" and "Piedmont" under the banner of
> "Great Airlines."

People's Express and Piedmont might have treated an 8-year old and a 4-year old
pretty well (especially if travelling without an adult).

--
Bob Noel
New NHL? what a joke

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
> I'm not sure I'd lump "People's Express" and "Piedmont" under the banner
of
> "Great Airlines."

Piedmont, while not far reaching, and not large, had some of the best
service, most reliable and comfortable in this area of the US. Many cried
when it was snapped up by useless air.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Beckman]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>>
>> I'm not sure I'd lump "People's Express" and "Piedmont" under the banner
> of
>> "Great Airlines."
>
> Piedmont, while not far reaching, and not large, had some of the best
> service, most reliable and comfortable in this area of the US. Many cried
> when it was snapped up by useless air.
> --
> Jim in NC

Piedmont will make something of a comeback in the next year or sot...

The new US Airways (or old America West if you prefer...) is going to paint
up four aircraft in their original livery of:

-America West
-US Airways
-PSA
-Piedmont

Now if we could just get Piedmont back on a race car...

Jay B

[Jay Honeck]

> The new US Airways (or old America West if you prefer...) is going to
> paint up four aircraft in their original livery of:
>
> -America West
> -US Airways
> -PSA
> -Piedmont

Why? Some sort of commemoration or anniversary?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning Bob Noel > wrote:

: People's Express and Piedmont might have treated an 8-year old and a 4-year old
: pretty well (especially if travelling without an adult).

We were traveling without an adult. We got little plastic "wings" with the
airline's logo, to let the crew know we were alone. One of the crew brought
us to the next airplane on each airplane change.

I forgot Delta, which was my favorite airline for many years. Their 1970's
logo on the vertical stabilizer of their 727-200's was a thing of beauty.
--
Aaron C.

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:b7epf.653723$xm3.33011@attbi_s21...
>> The new US Airways (or old America West if you prefer...) is going to
>> paint up four aircraft in their original livery of:
>>
>> -America West
>> -US Airways
>> -PSA
>> -Piedmont
>
> Why? Some sort of commemoration or anniversary?
> --
> Jay Honeck

US Airways' family tree:

http://www.usairways.com/about/corporate/profile/history/company_history.htm

Jay B

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in
:

>> Ummmm... have you flown first class recently?
>
> Ummm, yeah. NY to SF. Champaigne, china, crystal, metal (though not
> silver) utensils including knives, a meal that would rival many
> restaurants, cloth napkins, twice as much room as coach, maybe more,
> attentive stewards and stewardesses, fresh baked chocolate chip
> cookies.
>
> Jose

That's not first class. That's Midwest Express. They're an exception. And
at Midwest Express the entire plane is single class and gets the same
frills.

I've had a few 1st class upgrades (although they seem to get harder and
harder to get these days). Not all of them served meals on a 2 hour
flight, and a couple of them didn't even have metalware (they blamed
9/11). I wouldn't say the food rivals restauarants, but you typically
get a meal as opposed to having to pay for a snack box or paper bag
lunch with a soggy turkey sandwich. Breakable glass and China, perhaps, but
not always. Quite honestly, I'm not sure what the big hoopla is. The most
significant benefit of course is that I can feel comfortable like the Pig I
am when in 1st class, as opposed to feeling squished like a Cattle in the
back. But that is worth something to me.

I had a long conversation with a stewardess on a Northwest flight a while
back. She said they have to compete with the "No-Frills" airlines
who are taking away their market share. I said they would be smarter to
segment the market and let the No-Frills airlines have the low-budget,
no-service, no-room customers, and segment the market so they keep the
mid-range and higher-range customers who would be willing to pay a small
premium for more room and better service. I told her that basically her
airline, by choosing to compete directly against the no-frills airline is
quickly becoming a no-frills airline, and will surely declare bankruptcy.
In the meantime, they have twice as many seats on the plane than they did a
few years ago, and most of them are empty. If they halved the number of
seats on the plane, and charged 50% more, they would be able to include the
same size crew complement, probably fill a few more seats than they had
that day, but earn substantially more money.

The airlines all seem to think the only way to compete is on price. I
can't really complain too much, since I'm benefitting from their poor
marketing skills. But the fact is that there are many ways to compete,
and most of the airlines are just plain missing the boat (excuse the
pun).

[Judah]

Delta is one of a select few that now charges for same-day standby..
One other is ATA. It's a stupid policy that only serves to alienate the
customer - I now will spend the extra $50 with another carrier if given
the choice, since getting home a few hours early is always a desirable
action...

"Marty from Florida" <marty@-x-x-x- remove -x-x- worth.net> wrote in
:

> I flew commercial from West Palm Beach to Kansas City MO a few months
> ago. Got pulled aside for a random search, which was pretty stupid. I
> could have knitted a knife with my hair and stabbed the person beside
> me with it. The TSA is truly nuts, reflecting it's association with
> the newly formed office of remarkably extreme paranoia (Homeland
> Security). They need to really decide if a $ 450,000 Cirrus Sr-22 can
> do as much damage as a $ 39.00/day Uhaul truck. I digress ...
>
> All things considered, it took a huge amount of time messing around
> with TSA nonsense, checking in and out, waiting in Atlanta for a 2.3
> hour connection, etc. I could have walked there. I feel great sorrow
> for today's airlines (what's left of them). The former arrogance of
> large companies such as Eastern Airlines has certainly caught up with
> American and Delta. They now treat their clients as mini cash-cows.
> It's not pretty. I tried to get an earlier flight that was leaving in
> minutes rather than the 2.3 hours and was told to pony up cash. What
a
> way to treat a customer. The only reason I had to wait 2.3 hours is
> because of Delta's schedule that put me on the plane.
>
> Anything under 7 or 8 hundred miles and I'll just fly myself. Better
> food, much more fun, quicker when you add up all the time wasting.
> Marty from Rainy Palm Beach Florida
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> In rec.aviation.owning wrote:
>> : Right. There are lots of good reasons to fly yourself, but cost
>> : isn't one of them. Not by a long shot.
>>
>> As far as *direct* operating costs, it's usually cheaper to fly
>> yourself
> if
>> it's within 500nm. You know... about the same range as it's
>> potentially
> feasible to
>> drive... :)
>>
>> The indirect expenses and easily ignored as the fixed expenses of
the
> "hobby."
>> Heh...
>>
>> -Cory
>>
>> --
>>
>>
************************************************** ********************
>> *** * Cory Papenfuss
>> * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student
>> * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
>> *
>>
************************************************** ********************
>> ***
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> >
> > I'm not sure I'd lump "People's Express" and "Piedmont" under the banner
> of
> > "Great Airlines."
>
> Piedmont, while not far reaching, and not large, had some of the best
> service, most reliable and comfortable in this area of the US. Many cried
> when it was snapped up by useless air.

yes, Piedmont was one of the best airlines flying before they were
assimilated into the USAir borg.

But they were primarily in the Southeast, and there is now a regional
airline with that name, which may have thrown Jay off. The only real
remainder of the old Piedmont, besides the part that's now in USAir,
is a string of Piedmont FBOs in the southeast. They are also directly
descended from Piedmont airlines.

[Jack]

Here ya go, Judah -- let ol' Doug know just how he and the boys on the
top floor are "missing the boat." Maybe there'll be a lucrative VP slot
in it for you.


Douglas M. Steenland
President and Chief Executive Officer
Northwest Airlines, Inc.
7500 Airline Drive
Minneapolis, MN 55450
-----------------------


Judah wrote:

> I had a long conversation with a stewardess on a Northwest flight a while
> back. She said they have to compete with the "No-Frills" airlines
> who are taking away their market share. I said they would be smarter to
> segment the market and let the No-Frills airlines have the low-budget,
> no-service, no-room customers, and segment the market so they keep the
> mid-range and higher-range customers who would be willing to pay a small
> premium for more room and better service. I told her that basically her
> airline, by choosing to compete directly against the no-frills airline is
> quickly becoming a no-frills airline, and will surely declare bankruptcy.
> In the meantime, they have twice as many seats on the plane than they did a
> few years ago, and most of them are empty. If they halved the number of
> seats on the plane, and charged 50% more, they would be able to include the
> same size crew complement, probably fill a few more seats than they had
> that day, but earn substantially more money.
>
> The airlines all seem to think the only way to compete is on price. I
> can't really complain too much, since I'm benefitting from their poor
> marketing skills. But the fact is that there are many ways to compete,
> and most of the airlines are just plain missing the boat (excuse the
> pun).

[Jose]

> That's not first class. That's Midwest Express.

Actually it was business class on United. Or was it American. I forget.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roger]

On 15 Dec 2005 06:29:51 -0800, "Paul kgyy" >
wrote:

>"American Eagle said Thursday it will charge $1 each for a can of soda
>and a bag of cashews on flights into and out of Los Angeles next month."

That's cheaper than most sporting events.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 17:02:20 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> Well said Jay, a lot of us have been there and done that back in the days
>> that commercial flying was a sheer pleasure.
>
>It still can be, if you fly first class and pony up what it costs. Most
>of us can't afford to do that. Bring back the "good old days" and you'd
>have the good old choice - first class or nothing. Now we have another
>alternative.
>
I guess I'd have to disagree on that one.
Other than a comfortable chair and having leg room the last dinner I
had served had green fuzz growing on it. True, I didn't have to pay
extra for the drinks, but I'd rather stay conscious and watch the
scenery.

The last commuter I road on er...in was a *box* with windows. Not
even a head. I was up front and near the props. I have never ridden
in such a noisy airplane. My Deb is quiet without the headsets
compared to that thing.

The last "cattle car" ride was coach in a 737 on a very rough day.
Almost every seat was full. They served breakfast and hit the jet
stream interfaces as they were cleaning up. THEN they really started
to clean up. I think there were only about 10 of us on the plane not
counting crew who didn't get sick.

No, that wasn't the last cattle car ride as the company had me
traveling a bit before I retired, but I sure don't miss it a bit.

Oh the joys of flying cattle care class. The room, the service, the
sounds, the smells... er... DAMN I'll swear I just caught a whiff of
that thing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Jose

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in news:EPppf.4095$fO5.3265
@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com:

>> That's not first class. That's Midwest Express.
>
> Actually it was business class on United. Or was it American. I forget.
>
> Jose

I'm impressed. I didn't think anyone but Midwest Express offered the fresh
baked cookies...

I upgraded to 1st class on an America West trip from NY to Reno this past
week (with 1 stop each way). Interestingly enough, I was fairly impressed
by one of the legs - from NY to Phoenix. The service was excellent, and the
breakfast, while not extraordinary in terms of food quality was at least
unique and "special" compared to "buy an egg in a box" meals they were
offerring to coach class. Warm pancakes with strawberry sauce and whipped
cream...

The short hops (<2hrs) had no special service worth mentioning. They didn't
even give away headphones. Just wider seats. Admittedly, the extra space is
comfortable.

The long trips both offered glass and metalware (though knives were plastic
- thank goodness they didn't give us steak!) And one attendant for 16
people instead of two attendants for 150, making for pretty constant drink
refills. But on the return trip, the meal was basically the same sandwich
in a box that they offer in coach, except on a plate and without the $5
fee... Oh, and they were "out of the chicken".

No fresh-baked goods or lobster tails were offered.

:)