Showing metal at 1,100 hours

[Maule Driver]

I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
either. Always hangered etc.

My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
tell. No chunks though.

We're thinking cam and lifter.

My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.

I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?

Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I flew
for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under the
cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit without
running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.

Thoughts?

Maulesitter.

[Dave Butler]

Hey MD, I don't have any advice, but ... sorry to hear that. I feel your pain.

Dave

Maule Driver wrote:

> My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
> 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
> found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
> tell. No chunks though.
>
> We're thinking cam and lifter.

[nrp]

Maule Driver wrote:

> We're thinking cam and lifter.


> Thoughts?
> Maulesitter.

Have you EVER done a cold start with no preheat below 32 degF? or maybe
even higher temps with summer weight oil?

[Denny]

Another airplane on our field with 360 just lost the cam and lifter
last month and it caused big time damage while they piddled around
with, "well, lets fly it a while and look at the filter again."... The
lifter spalled off chunks shortly after that decision and the pistons
picked the debries up on the skirts and scored the cylinders... His
'repair' on a 700 hour engine is now $10K....

Pull a cylinder and borescope the cam... Not a lot of bucks or downtime
to do this and you can make an informed decision, not a guess...

denny

[Jim Burns]

http://www.sacskyranch.com/camshaft.htm

Some cam pics and comments.

I'd pull a cylinder and do some looking. I've been told by our AI that once
cams start spalling, they don't stop and the chunks usually get bigger.
Jim

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
> the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
> either. Always hangered etc.
>
> My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
> 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
> found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
> tell. No chunks though.
>
> We're thinking cam and lifter.
>
> My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
> recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.
>
> I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
> look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.
>
> I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
> analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
> business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?
>
> Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I flew
> for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under the
> cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit without
> running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Maulesitter.

[Michelle P]

Maulesitter,
You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
Michelle

Maule Driver wrote:

> I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
> the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
> either. Always hangered etc.
>
> My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm
> with 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter
> and we found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much -
> hard to tell. No chunks though.
>
> We're thinking cam and lifter.
>
> My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
> recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.
>
> I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take
> another look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.
>
> I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
> analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
> business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?
>
> Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I
> flew for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under
> the cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit
> without running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Maulesitter.

[Dave]

Like Michelle said!

Or pull the jug , right rear, and have a boo at the cam & lifters.
With Lyc's it is most often the back 2-3 lobes..

Dont 'ask..... :(

It WAS a 2700 hr engine tho.....

Dave


On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote:

>Maulesitter,
>You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
>Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
>the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
>Michelle
>
>Maule Driver wrote:
>
>> I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
>> the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
>> either. Always hangered etc.
>>
>> My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm
>> with 36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter
>> and we found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much -
>> hard to tell. No chunks though.
>>
>> We're thinking cam and lifter.
>>
>> My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
>> recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.
>>
>> I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take
>> another look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.
>>
>> I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
>> analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
>> business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?
>>
>> Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I
>> flew for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under
>> the cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit
>> without running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Maulesitter.

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:36:36 GMT, Maule Driver
> wrote:

>I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed
>the oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it
>either. Always hangered etc.
>
>My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with
>36 hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we
>found very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to
>tell. No chunks though.
>
>We're thinking cam and lifter.

snip

>Thoughts?

Does the engine sit idle for extended periods of time?
Storage/operating climate?

Lycoming could analyze the filter contents, or you could use other
facilities.

http://www.championaerospace.com/oil_kit.html


http://www.avlab.com/

As Denny indicated, at mid-time, it would be advisable to make a
positive determination before possibly doing more damage.

Pulling a cylinder and getting it honed and new rings fitted (might
have the e-valve guide looked at while your at it) is pretty cheap
compared to an early overhaul. If you have access to a decent shop,
pulling a con rod and inspecting the bearing is also a good idea when
you suspect metal contamination.

TC

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
> wrote:

>Maulesitter,
>You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
>Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
>the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
>Michelle

Unless it's one of the few Lycomings running around with
automotive-style barrel lifter bodies, the engine has mushroom lifter
bodies. The portion that rides on the cam lobe has a larger o.d. than
the rest of the body (and the corresponding hole in the crankcase).

TC

[Juan Jimenez]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
> look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.

Or fly another 10 hours and wind up with a ruined engine and a much larger
bill. I would play it safe.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> I've put over 1,000 of the 1,100 hours on this new O-360-C4f. Changed the
> oil religiously. I didn't baby the engine but didn't abuse it either.
> Always hangered etc.
>
> My last oil analysis showed a doubling of iron 47.9ppm to 101.0ppm with 36
> hours on the oil. Everything else normal. We did the filter and we found
> very fine iron filings or dust with a magnet. How much - hard to tell.
> No chunks though.
>
> We're thinking cam and lifter.
>
> My mechanic is playing it safe - called Signature and Mattituch who
> recommended no more flying, split the case, and fix or overhaul.
>
> I want some second opinions. I could fly 10 more hours and take another
> look. We could pull a cylinder and check the cam I'm told.
>
> I've read about Second OilPINION and Howard Felton - a knowledgeable
> analysis of the metal seems like money well spent. Is he still in
> business? Anyone know anyone else who can do this?
>
> Any other factors? My exhaust manifold/heat exchanger broke and I flew
> for 10 to 36 hours with it broken. Parts 'banging' around under the
> cowling etc. Discovered it during oil change. I did let it sit without
> running for 60+ days - a first for this aircraft.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Maulesitter.

Since you let the aircraft sit for 60 days, is it possible (likely?) that
the metal you are seeing is simply the layer of rust that formed on your
cylinder bores?

KB

[Maule Driver]

It does have mushroom lifters - my mechanic seemed to be very aware of
that fact but I didn't understand the ramifications.

wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Maulesitter,
>>You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
>>Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can peer in
>>the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
>>Michelle
>
>
> Unless it's one of the few Lycomings running around with
> automotive-style barrel lifter bodies, the engine has mushroom lifter
> bodies. The portion that rides on the cam lobe has a larger o.d. than
> the rest of the body (and the corresponding hole in the crankcase).
>
> TC

[Maule Driver]

Denny wrote:
> Another airplane on our field with 360 just lost the cam and lifter
> last month and it caused big time damage while they piddled around
> with, "well, lets fly it a while and look at the filter again."... The
> lifter spalled off chunks shortly after that decision and the pistons
> picked the debries up on the skirts and scored the cylinders... His
> 'repair' on a 700 hour engine is now $10K....
>
> Pull a cylinder and borescope the cam... Not a lot of bucks or downtime
> to do this and you can make an informed decision, not a guess...
>

That seems to be the most rational move to make at this point.

[Maule Driver]

Kyle Boatright wrote:

> Since you let the aircraft sit for 60 days, is it possible (likely?) that
> the metal you are seeing is simply the layer of rust that formed on your
> cylinder bores?
>
Possible? I certainly hope so. Likely? I don't know. Does anyone
doing regular oil analysis see this when their a/c sits idle for 60 days?

I realize that if I have a jug pulled and find nothing then I really
have a problem. What is it? Rust in the cylinder bores would be a
Christmas present.

[clipclip]

Denny wrote:
Another airplane on our field with 360 just lost the cam and lifter
last month and it caused big time damage while they piddled around
with, "well, lets fly it a while and look at the filter again."... The
lifter spalled off chunks shortly after that decision and the pistons
picked the debries up on the skirts and scored the cylinders... His
'repair' on a 700 hour engine is now $10K....

Pull a cylinder and borescope the cam... Not a lot of bucks or downtime
to do this and you can make an informed decision, not a guess...


That seems to be the most rational move to make at this point.

as others have said, it's definitely a good idea to take a look at tha cam and lifters. but make sure you examine all of them - one can take a turn for the worst, while the other ones may not show much damage initially.

frank

[Michelle P]

Ouch,
Sorry. Guess pulling a cylinder is in order.
Michelle

Maule Driver wrote:

> It does have mushroom lifters - my mechanic seemed to be very aware
> of that fact but I didn't understand the ramifications.
>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 23:24:45 GMT, Michelle P
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Maulesitter,
>>> You do not need to pull a cylider to look at the cam.
>>> Just pull the rocker arms, push rods, tubes and lifters. You can
>>> peer in the hole with a flash light and mirrow.
>>> Michelle
>>
>>
>>
>> Unless it's one of the few Lycomings running around with
>> automotive-style barrel lifter bodies, the engine has mushroom lifter
>> bodies. The portion that rides on the cam lobe has a larger o.d. than
>> the rest of the body (and the corresponding hole in the crankcase).
>>
>> TC
>

[Juan Jimenez]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>> Since you let the aircraft sit for 60 days, is it possible (likely?) that
>> the metal you are seeing is simply the layer of rust that formed on your
>> cylinder bores?
>>
> Possible? I certainly hope so. Likely? I don't know. Does anyone doing
> regular oil analysis see this when their a/c sits idle for 60 days?
>
> I realize that if I have a jug pulled and find nothing then I really have
> a problem. What is it? Rust in the cylinder bores would be a Christmas
> present.

210% increase in iron after sitting for 60 days? That doesn't sound very
likely to me, but then again I am not Howard Fenton. How many hours did you
fly after it sat for that long before you changed the oil and did the
analysis? Did you change the oil again after that? Try putting some rare
earth magnets on the filter housing, that will help collect any more of the
iron as well, give you another point of reference...

[Mike Spera]

As others have stated, you are free to pursue whatever path you like. On
one extreme, tear the engine apart and overhaul before further flight.
On the other side, fly for a few more hours, take another sample to the
lab, and cut open the filter to see if you have any more "goodies"
lurking. One course is known to be expensive up front. The other may be
just as expensive in the long run. If something major breaks in the air,
the outcome may be more expensive. No way to know until it happens.

It sat for 60 days prior to the bad oil analysis? Some say that could do
it while another camp says that ain't it. Really? Show me the testing
data either way. What we get out of the engine manufacturers and oil
companies suggest that anything other than almost daily flight of 1 hour
risks corrosion buildup at some rate. Seems to suggest that, under the
right conditions, you could be seeing 2 months of inactivity that ended
up in the oil sump. Then again, they sell oil and engines (and have
nervous lawyers and insurance companies). I don't expect them to say
"leave the engine idle for long periods and it will probably be O.K.".

I have seen a Lycoming 360 locally that ground a cam lobe to 1/2 its
original height. It ran fine and idled O.K. It made what felt to the
owner as full power. No way to know how long it was in that condition.
Some suggest that once the hardened layer is ground off a surface, it
will "go quickly". Have any of the engine manufacturers or oil companies
done any testing in this area to see how quickly this may happen?

There are those who say that flying further risks "more" damage. Well,
if you split the case at 1100 hours, you may want to strongly consider
a major anyway. So, other than an off-airport excursion, I'm not sure
what would be different in several hours as far as the overhaul. Maybe
some crank scuffing? As you said, if you pull a jug and see nothing,
then what? The only way to "know" you are O.K. in that case is a major.

The thing that irks me when I get in this situation (like a cylinder
that might be going South) is that I cannot FLY the thing anywhere with
confidence except a local hop. Until the problem is resolved, the plane
is "down" as far as I'm concerned. No freedom to take a 400 mile jaunt
whenever I want is as good as no plane at all. Worse, in fact. I have a
potential financial liability simmering on the ramp that I cannot use.

Good Luck,
Mike

[Jay Honeck]

> The thing that irks me when I get in this situation (like a cylinder that
> might be going South) is that I cannot FLY the thing anywhere with
> confidence except a local hop. Until the problem is resolved, the plane is
> "down" as far as I'm concerned. No freedom to take a 400 mile jaunt
> whenever I want is as good as no plane at all. Worse, in fact. I have a
> potential financial liability simmering on the ramp that I cannot use.

Well put, Mike.

This is an aspect of ownership that is not often discussed. Nagging little
problems that, as a renter, don't even enter you mind, become HUGE deals as
an owner.

Right now I'm still chasing the "mystery oil leak" that leaves a little
puddle under my plane over time. Although it's not stopped me from flying
(the weather, on the other hand, *has*), it grates on me every time I open
the hangar door. It just isn't *right* -- even though everyone (including
my A&P) has told me that air-cooled engines just do this from time to time,
and you can spend $10K chasing it down, or you can live with it.

In the past, I've had alternator problems (will everything in the panel
suddenly die?), nose-wheel shimmy problems (will it get worse?), crunched
aileron sheet-metal (will it suddenly flutter without warning?), and a
plethora of smaller nits that drove me (more) nuts. The only solution is
to keep on top of them as they occur and fix them, one by one.

Maule Driver's case is, of course, far more critical. It'll be interesting
to hear what the inspections turn up.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michelle P]

Jay,
I had an mystery oil leak as well. It took me several weeks and wash
downs to find it.
When the engine was "cold" it did not leak. When it heated up it did.
Mine turned out to be a crack in the oil filter adapter housing. (you
and I have the same basic case design) Specificly the vernatherm
housing. When cold and retracted the crack was closed. When hot, the
vernatherm extended pushed the crack open. I followed the oil up as far
as I could. The problem was the oil was coming out under pressure and
going everywhere! I found it be looking with a mirror. What I saw was
missing paint in a area that did not have anything rubbing on it.
I was about to fully clean the engine have some one run the engine while
I looked for spraying oil.
I replaced it with a remote filter housing....
Michelle

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>The thing that irks me when I get in this situation (like a cylinder that
>>might be going South) is that I cannot FLY the thing anywhere with
>>confidence except a local hop. Until the problem is resolved, the plane is
>>"down" as far as I'm concerned. No freedom to take a 400 mile jaunt
>>whenever I want is as good as no plane at all. Worse, in fact. I have a
>>potential financial liability simmering on the ramp that I cannot use.
>>
>>
>
>Well put, Mike.
>
>This is an aspect of ownership that is not often discussed. Nagging little
>problems that, as a renter, don't even enter you mind, become HUGE deals as
>an owner.
>
>Right now I'm still chasing the "mystery oil leak" that leaves a little
>puddle under my plane over time. Although it's not stopped me from flying
>(the weather, on the other hand, *has*), it grates on me every time I open
>the hangar door. It just isn't *right* -- even though everyone (including
>my A&P) has told me that air-cooled engines just do this from time to time,
>and you can spend $10K chasing it down, or you can live with it.
>
>In the past, I've had alternator problems (will everything in the panel
>suddenly die?), nose-wheel shimmy problems (will it get worse?), crunched
>aileron sheet-metal (will it suddenly flutter without warning?), and a
>plethora of smaller nits that drove me (more) nuts. The only solution is
>to keep on top of them as they occur and fix them, one by one.
>
>Maule Driver's case is, of course, far more critical. It'll be interesting
>to hear what the inspections turn up.
>
>

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>>
>>> Since you let the aircraft sit for 60 days, is it possible (likely?)
>>> that the metal you are seeing is simply the layer of rust that formed on
>>> your cylinder bores?
>>>
>> Possible? I certainly hope so. Likely? I don't know. Does anyone
>> doing regular oil analysis see this when their a/c sits idle for 60 days?

Rust might end up in the oil analysis, but I don't see how some surface rust
from the bores would end up as metal shavings in the filter. (If I recall
correctly, that's what you found, right?) :-(

Does a Maule come with a Tost or Schweizer hook as an option? (And I don't
mean on the tail end...)
;-)

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Vaughn]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:DaednVG8H6AWKTjenZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
>
> Does a Maule come with a Tost or Schweizer hook as an option? (And I don't
> mean on the tail end...)

You could always tow it backwards. It worked for the Wright brothers.

Vaughn

[Jay Honeck]

> I had an mystery oil leak as well. It took me several weeks and wash downs
> to find it.
<Big snip>
> I replaced it with a remote filter housing....

Well, I've already got one of those...

I'm having my A&P change the oil and install new iridium plugs this week --
and I've already asked him to go on a LIMITED "fishing expedition" in search
of the oil leak. If he hasn't found the source after 2 hours, we're calling
it off, and I'll just live with it...

Thanks for the ideas!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > The thing that irks me when I get in this situation (like a cylinder that
> > might be going South) is that I cannot FLY the thing anywhere with
> > confidence except a local hop. Until the problem is resolved, the plane is
> > "down" as far as I'm concerned. No freedom to take a 400 mile jaunt
> > whenever I want is as good as no plane at all. Worse, in fact. I have a
> > potential financial liability simmering on the ramp that I cannot use.
>
> Well put, Mike.
>
> This is an aspect of ownership that is not often discussed. Nagging little
> problems that, as a renter, don't even enter you mind, become HUGE deals as
> an owner.
>

Thanks for providing that perspective for us non-owners enviously
looking on.

I had a vacuum failure in a club plane a couple of years ago. I was
VFR so I finished my flight home, squawked it, and that was it. Also
club planes go down for maintanence, engine changes, or fixes once in a
while, when they happens I fly a different one. My club has
volunteer maintanence nights that I attend when I can so I can be as
hands-on as I want to or can be. Still it would be nice to have my
own bird....

I guess the best of both worlds, if you could afford it, would be to
own a plane AND belong to a club so you have backup availability when
your baby is sick. We do have a few members like that.

[Jay Honeck]

> I guess the best of both worlds, if you could afford it, would be to
> own a plane AND belong to a club so you have backup availability when
> your baby is sick. We do have a few members like that.

Actually, the best of all worlds would be to have a partnership of two
pilots (or sets of pilots, as in Mary and me), each bringing an
airplane to the table.

For example, I would LOVE to partner with someone that has a Decathlon.
When he wanted to haul four people and luggage, he would have access
to Atlas -- and when we wanted to rock and roll, we'd have access to
the Decathlon. It would be perfect.

Haven't found anyone around here that wants to do that...yet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

From Jay (snipped)
> > This is an aspect of ownership that is not often discussed. Nagging
little
> > problems that, as a renter, don't even enter you mind, become HUGE deals
as
> > an owner.
> >
>
> Thanks for providing that perspective for us non-owners enviously
> looking on.

Jay makes a great point. Before I became an owner, as an instructor I took
great pride in knowing the rental airplanes I flew inside and out. I knew
the AD's, the inspection dates, the squawks, and how the owner and
maintenance people took care of them. It gave me great insight into what it
took to be legal, what it took to "get by", what could wait, and what would
never get fixed no matter how much we bitched.

I think one of the greatest things about owning is that you become very
intimate with your airplane. You go through all the same decisions about
when, how, and whether to fix, replace, or repair something, but they are
YOUR decisions, not somebody else's, you control the entire process,
although sometimes your options become limited. You also know what your
budget is, which like other owners, will contribute greatly to your decision
making process. You get to really know your airplane. You also get to make
money saving "investments" when you repair or replace certain things. If
you know "doing it better" will cost you a little more now but save you a
lot more later, (and you can afford it) it becomes an easy decision.

Case in point: The exhaust systems on Aztecs run very low, very hot, and
very close to the fiberglass cowls. Too much heat will destroy the cowls.
When our exhaust systems needed to be replaced, a very smart previous owner
had them fabricated a few inches shorter to provide more clearance between
them and the cowl. Didn't cost any more money, labor to remove and replace
would be the same, but he preserved the fiberglass nose bowls which are
$2400 new unpainted EACH!

So... some repairs, done properly and smartly, will save you money in the
long run. Unfortunately a point often forgotten on rental planes.

The next time your rental or club plane comes back from a squawk repair,
take a look at the logs, take the time to talk to the A&P, and ask for some
details about the problem and the fix. You may be presently surprised or
amazingly shocked.

Another thing about owning is that you can, if you take the time, develop a
very close relationship with your maintenance shop. This will pay HUGE
dividends. They will be more willing to call you up in the middle of a
project and tell you about other little things that you may want to take
care of while they have the airplane torn apart. Much cheaper than
repeating the same labor requirements for a new problem at a latter date.
They may also let you look over their shoulder and help with some of the
projects. I would insist on this type of arrangement. Even if you don't
save any money on labor, what you learn will become invaluable down the
road. Ask your club or FBO if you can help out with 100hr inspections, oil
changes, annual inspections, or other maintenance. You may be able to trade
some sweat equity for some flight hours, either way, you'll be a smarter
pilot and well on your way towards ownership.

Jim

[nrp]

My call - (not an A&P but a mech engr). That it keeps producing metal
(really how much though) makes me wonder.

I can't imagine this to be simple cylinder corrosion products. It all
depends on what you find, but it sure sounds to me like a cam failure.
The next question is why, on a nearly new engine.

Maybe you could get by with just removing the four rocker box covers &
see if the valve travels are still equal using a dial indicator.

If they are equal travel, it could be an oil pump or other accessory
gear.

If they are not equal, that would suggest a good choice and location to
remove a cylinder & look at that cam lobe system. Two of the cam lobes
are doubled up so that they each drive two intake valves on opposite
sides of the engine. These might be the most likely cam lobes to
fail, with the failure probably initiating on the RH side if it is
cold-start related.

Another possibility is a scored cylinder. If it is from cold start
damage, it will probably be worse on the top right side of the engine.
You might be able to see this with a light thru the top spark plug hole
while looking thru the bottom hole. Do this in a dark area. Maybe
your mechanic has a borescope alternate.

Assuming this engine has a full flow filter (not just a screen), the
condition of a typical rod bearing could be determined after a cylinder
removal. If it has only a screen, the bearings will almost certainly
be contaminated.

If there is camshaft or lifter debris embedded in the con rod big end
journal, I'd want to stop any further operation in hopes of at least
saving the crankshaft from further damage. Any camshaft wear debris is
going to be very hard & just might have the potential of scratching the
nitrided crankshaft. If any cam lobe is worn down, it isn't going to
heal itself - it's just going to create more metal.

Let us know what you find.

[George Patterson]

nrp wrote:

> The next question is why, on a nearly new engine.

I don't regard 1,100 hours as "nearly new."

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[nrp]

Correction to my earlier post - Cold start cam failure on any dual
follower lobes will probably initiate on the LH side due to oil spray
patterns in the crankcase.

On the 1100 TT point by George P - I was thinking that the cam was at
least not a second run one, in which case it would be a premature
failure.

[Maule Driver]

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> Rust might end up in the oil analysis, but I don't see how some
surface rust
> from the bores would end up as metal shavings in the filter. (If I recall
> correctly, that's what you found, right?) :-(
>
We have fine metal partices - where from we don't know. How surface
rust from the bores would appear in the filter? I don't know. What
would you expect to see in such a situation?

> Does a Maule come with a Tost or Schweizer hook as an option? (And I don't
> mean on the tail end...)
> ;-)
No hook but it has such a attention getting glide ratio that I think
I'll wait to get the vibrator fixed. Actually I do have some 2-22 time....

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I would _think_ that the rust that can accumulate in 60 days on an oily
surface like your cylinders is going to be microscopic in thickness. So
anything that gets scraped off would be microscopic in size. If you had rust
thick enough to scape off in visible shavings, I would think it would be
enough to sieze the engine. But, I've never run an experiment where I've
left an engine sit for 60 days then measured the rust thickness. Were the
metal shavings shiny or rust? If they were shiny, then it wasn't rust from
the bores, eh?

If you take the prop off when you put the tow hook on, it should improve the
L/D, right?
--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> > Rust might end up in the oil analysis, but I don't see how some surface
> rust
>> from the bores would end up as metal shavings in the filter. (If I recall
>> correctly, that's what you found, right?) :-(
>>
> We have fine metal partices - where from we don't know. How surface rust
> from the bores would appear in the filter? I don't know. What would you
> expect to see in such a situation?
>
>> Does a Maule come with a Tost or Schweizer hook as an option? (And I
>> don't mean on the tail end...)
>> ;-)
> No hook but it has such a attention getting glide ratio that I think I'll
> wait to get the vibrator fixed. Actually I do have some 2-22 time....

[nrp]

Probably there is a wide variety of corrosion environments. Some
severe, and some quite passive. Surely the coastal areas have to be
more severe. Temperature variations will cause a doubling of corrosion
about every 20 deg F rise, so summertime is when it is most severe.

My 172 engine has set for the 3 winter months a couple of times (in MN)
with no visible sign of corrosion in the cylinders. Another never-run
C-85 engine in my hangar was assembled over 6 years ago but is still
not showing any signs of corrosion in its cylinders. It is turned over
only yearly. I have to resist running it though until the rest of the
J-4 project gets done.

FWIW - Rust (ferric oxide) is non-magnetic. Ferrous oxide (black form)
is though.

[Michelle P]

Which kind is it?
Does it attach to your existing oil adapter or replace it?
Michelle

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>I had an mystery oil leak as well. It took me several weeks and wash downs
>>to find it.
>>
>>
><Big snip>
>
>
>>I replaced it with a remote filter housing....
>>
>>
>
>Well, I've already got one of those...
>
>I'm having my A&P change the oil and install new iridium plugs this week --
>and I've already asked him to go on a LIMITED "fishing expedition" in search
>of the oil leak. If he hasn't found the source after 2 hours, we're calling
>it off, and I'll just live with it...
>
>Thanks for the ideas!
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Which kind is it?

Airwolf.

> Does it attach to your existing oil adapter or replace it?

I believe it replaced it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"