WINPILOT + ILEC SN-10 + VOLKSLOGGER

[E. Douglas Whitehead]

I have a Winpilot Adv. 6.09 and a ILEC SN-10
and a Volkslogger.

My question has to do with the accuracy of
the wind displayed in the cockpit. Is it true
that I should rely on the wind shown on the
ILEC SN-10 and not that shown on the Winpilot?

If this is true, I would like to understand
the reason(s).

Thank you.

Doug Whitehead (EDW)

[MaD]

My experience is that the wind calculation of the SN10 is extremely
reliable and accurate. I reckon WP is as good as any other device
calculating based on circling drift only, like the LX20 for example. I
often compare SN10 and LX20 values and normally the SN10 is far better.
I'm sure Dave N. can explain why.


Marcel

[[email protected]]

Doug,

I'm curious to know how much variation you get between the two, if any.

I use WinPilot Pro 6.x and an LX7000 Pro, and the two wind indications
are usually very close.

~ted/2NO

[[email protected]]

I tend to agree with Marcel. I also fly with an ILEC SN-10 and an IPAQ
with Winpilot. My sense is that algorith and precision from the SN-10
is always more accurate than Winpilot. The reason I say this is the
same as what Marcel mentioned, which is the ILEC is capable of
calculating windspeed and direction while in level flight, whereas most
other software/computers require you to be circling.
Respectfully,

wrote:
> Doug,
>
> I'm curious to know how much variation you get between the two, if any.
>
> I use WinPilot Pro 6.x and an LX7000 Pro, and the two wind indications
> are usually very close.
>
> ~ted/2NO

[MaD]

Don't know 'bout Doug but I find LX- computers give you fairly exact
wind indications IF you circle steadily keeping bank and airspeed as
constant as possible for a few circles. Then I normally get very
silmilar values on the LX20 and SN10.
Not being careful doing that the values often are 20-40% apart in
strength and 20-60° in direction. Especially in weak wind the values
can differ 180°!

[[email protected]]

Well, I could explain but then I'd have to kill you ;-)
I'm really not sure what algorithms other software
currently uses, but my understanding is that we
have a big advantage by using ASI as well as GPS.
Happy Holidays and Best Regards, Dave

MaD wrote:
> My experience is that the wind calculation of the SN10 is extremely
> reliable and accurate. I reckon WP is as good as any other device
> calculating based on circling drift only, like the LX20 for example. I
> often compare SN10 and LX20 values and normally the SN10 is far better.
> I'm sure Dave N. can explain why.
>
> Marcel

[Mike the Strike]

Borgelt also uses true airspeed and GPS derived groundspeed to
calculate wind speeds in non-circling flight. I found my B 2000 agreed
pretty well with my colleagues' SN10s so I imagine Dave's algorithms
are similar.

Now I have an SN10, I check the measured wind vertical profile with
thaqt predicted from the sounding forecast. Agreement between
forecast, SN10 and other instruments is well within expected errors.

Mike

[Ray Roberts]

Re: Calculation of windspeed and wind direction without circling:

Here's my understanding. If it's not correct, doubtless someone will
straighten me out and I will have learned something. DISCLAIMER: I have
absolutely no "inside" information on the algorithms used in the SN10!

Aircraft heading (direction the nose is pointing) and airspeed together
define a velocity vector that can be drawn as an arrow on a piece of paper,
the angle of the arrow representing the direction and the length of the
arrow representing airspeed. Starting at the tip of this arrow we can add a
second arrow representing wind speed and direction. If we now draw a third
arrow that closes the triangle (from the start of the first arrow to the end
of the second) this arrow represents the aircraft track (direction of travel
over the ground) and ground speed, this being the classical "wind triangle"
well known to pilots. Note that defining any two of the vectors of a wind
triangle automatically defines the third, this vector (like all vectors)
being defined by its magnitude and direction.

The above describes the graphical addition of two vectors.We can also do
vector addition (or subtraction) mathematically, instead of plotting arrows
on paper. The key point here is that the six quantities involved, aircraft
heading, aircraft airspeed, wind direction, wind speed, ground track and
ground speed define three vectors that are related mathematically by a
single (vector) equation:

In the case of a sailplane with an SN10 that has input from a GPS, we have
three knowns, namely true airspeed (the SN10 can compute this from pitot
pressure, static pressure, altitude and temperature), groundspeed and track
(the last two come from the GPS). There are three unknowns, aircraft
heading, wind direction and windspeed. Basically, multiple unknowns can be
calculated by setting up and solving simultaneous equations. There are well
known mathematical and computer algorithms for doing this.

If we make the assumption that the wind direction and speed are constant (at
least in the short term, and within a given altitude band) and if (in the
same short term) the sailplane flies on two distinct headings and / or
airspeeds within that altitude band, we have two different sets of "known"
values to insert into the vector equation. We can treat the resulting
equations as simultaneous equations and solve for the above-mentioned
unknowns. For the best result, the headings and /or airspeeds should be as
different as possible. Theoretically, we can get a unique solution as long
as the headings and / or airspeeds are not absolutely identical, but in the
real world, it appears that (at least sometimes) we need significantly
different headings to get a reliable result. Bear in mind that the even if
the windspeed and direction are indeed constant, the three "known" values
are not known with absolute precision and computers always introduce
round-off errors, some of which can get to be significant in these types of
calculations. Remember too, mathematically-speaking we are cheating. The
"known" values that are plugged into "simultaneous" equations should really
be values that are measured simultaneously! In this case, they are not, they
are values derived at different times and places, the main effect of which
is to make it more likely that the initial assumption of constant wind speed
and wind direction is not quite correct.

If we continue to fly in the same altitude band, with new headings/
airspeeds, we can get new and different input values that can be plugged in
and solved for new values of windspeed and direction. For the reasons stated
above, these results will not be all the same. If the results are clustered
closely together, we can have a high confidence in them. If the values are
all over the place, we can still display a value for the user (pilot), e.g.,
by averaging a number of results, but we will have a low confidence in the
displayed values. (Note: the SN10 does indeed display a confidence value for
each calculated wind speed and direction).

Advantages over windspeed and direction calculated from circle drift:
there's the obvious one that you don't have to circle to get a result.
Additionally, a circling sailplane pilot will often be moving his circle to
get better centered, and such shifts adversely affect the wind calculation.
And anyway, who ever flies perfect circles?

Disadvantages? In practice, the method does seem to require significant
heading changes and sometimes (e.g. some ridge flying, straight line cruises
between thermals, some wave flights) these are just not available. I have
flown with an SN10 for several years and sometimes found it necessary to
make one or more deliberate heading changes to get a calculated wind that
makes sense. If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the SN10,
thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle", this
would not be necessary. One lives in hope...

Ray Roberts





> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Well, I could explain but then I'd have to kill you ;-)
> I'm really not sure what algorithms other software
> currently uses, but my understanding is that we
> have a big advantage by using ASI as well as GPS.
> Happy Holidays and Best Regards, Dave
>
> MaD wrote:
>> My experience is that the wind calculation of the SN10 is extremely
>> reliable and accurate. I reckon WP is as good as any other device
>> calculating based on circling drift only, like the LX20 for example. I
>> often compare SN10 and LX20 values and normally the SN10 is far better.
>> I'm sure Dave N. can explain why.
>>
>> Marcel
>

[Francisco De Almeida]

> Ray Roberts wrote:
> If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the SN10,=20
> thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle", =
this=20
> would not be necessary. One lives in hope...

That is exactly what the Zander SR940, ZS1 and (I believe) all other =
flight computers with compass coupling do. It makes good wind speed =
readings possible in straight flight even without weaving. Furthermore, =
for reasons that I cannot explain, the wind vectors calculated by the =
computers above in circular flight are not affected by bank angle =
changes.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Ray Roberts" > wrote in message
. ..
> Re: Calculation of windspeed and wind direction without circling:
>
> Here's my understanding. If it's not correct, doubtless someone will
> straighten me out and I will have learned something. DISCLAIMER: I have
> absolutely no "inside" information on the algorithms used in the SN10!
>
> Aircraft heading (direction the nose is pointing) and airspeed together
> define a velocity vector that can be drawn as an arrow on a piece of
> paper, the angle of the arrow representing the direction and the length of
> the
....
> In the case of a sailplane with an SN10 that has input from a GPS, we have
> three knowns, namely true airspeed (the SN10 can compute this from pitot
> pressure, static pressure, altitude and temperature), groundspeed and
> track (the last two come from the GPS). There are three unknowns, aircraft
> heading, wind direction and windspeed. Basically, multiple unknowns can be
> calculated by setting up and solving simultaneous equations. There are
> well known mathematical and computer algorithms for doing this.
....
> makes sense. If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the
> SN10, thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle",
> this would not be necessary. One lives in hope...
>


For $300 you can add a fluxgate compass that will communicate via NMEA...
Fixing the software to use it would be up to you.

Of course, the heading information will only be good when you are flying
straight and level...

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/43158/10001/606/137/14

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Ray Roberts]

Having good heading info only when flying wings level is not that big a
problem, since the present SN10 algorithm works fairly well when one is
turning. One could just switch back to the present algorithm for turning
flight. Maybe that's what the Zander does (a previous poster said he didn't
understand how the Zander, which uses a heading sensor, can calculate wind
when the sailplane is banked).

Ray


"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:GLydnQkwE87RNTDenZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Ray Roberts" > wrote in message
> . ..


Snip
>> If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the SN10, thus
>> completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle", this would
>> not be necessary. One lives in hope...
>>


>
>
> For $300 you can add a fluxgate compass that will communicate via NMEA...
> Fixing the software to use it would be up to you.
>
> Of course, the heading information will only be good when you are flying
> straight and level...
>
> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/43158/10001/606/137/14
>

move spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.
>

[Francisco De Almeida]

>a previous poster said he didn't understand how the Zander,=20
>which uses a heading sensor, can calculate wind=20
>when the sailplane is banked

That is not what the previous poster said. Please read again.

Happy Xmas,
Previous poster

[Ray Roberts]

I stand corrected!
Ray Roberts

"Francisco De Almeida" > wrote in message
...
> >a previous poster said he didn't understand how the Zander,=20
>>which uses a heading sensor, can calculate wind=20
>>when the sailplane is banked
>
> That is not what the previous poster said. Please read again.
>
> Happy Xmas,
> Previous poster
>
>
>
>
>

[Jim Kelly]

As an aside . . . there are two versions of WinPilot, WinPilot
'Advanced' (all purpose) and WinPilot 'Pro' that **requires** one
of the following devices to be connected to get accurate info:

a.. Cambridge 302 vario/flight recorder
b.. LX1600, LX 5000, LX7000, LX 160
c.. Westerboer VW921/922
d.. or a Borgelt B50 (with a gps-unit)
(from http://www.winpilot.com/gps.asp)

The **Pro** version is apparently able to derive wind info in
straight flight as well as the 'Advanced' version's derivision
from thermalling ability.

jk





> wrote in message
oups.com...
I tend to agree with Marcel. I also fly with an ILEC SN-10 and
an IPAQ
with Winpilot. My sense is that algorith and precision from the
SN-10
is always more accurate than Winpilot. The reason I say this is
the
same as what Marcel mentioned, which is the ILEC is capable of
calculating windspeed and direction while in level flight,
whereas most
other software/computers require you to be circling.
Respectfully,

wrote:
> Doug,
>
> I'm curious to know how much variation you get between the two,
> if any.
>
> I use WinPilot Pro 6.x and an LX7000 Pro, and the two wind
> indications
> are usually very close.
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Doug Haluza]

I actually have the same Azimuth 1000 flux gate compass installed on
the rear instrument panel of my Janus C. It is coupled via NMEA to an
RMI microEncoder in the front panel.

One problem with the set-up is that the S/H two-place one-piece canopy
has a steel cross member, so the compass reading changes by more than 5
degrees between open and closed canopy. Also, even though it is tilt
compensated by mounting the flux gate on a gimball, it does not produce
consistent readings when tilted. I assume this is because the tilt
compensation alters the hard/soft iron compensation.

I looked at installing a remote flux gate, but there is no place in the
glider to mount it far enough from the steel flight control push/pull
rods. This is a real problem for getting accurate heading info from a
magnetic sensor in a glider.

P.S. Ray points out that with any two vectors, you can draw the vectors
tip to tail to complete the wind triangle. With one vector (GPS) and a
scalar (TAS) you can draw a circle around the tip of the vector to
create a family of wind triangles. With a second set of measurements on
another heading, you can draw another circle which intersects the first
at two places. With another set of measurements, you can remove the
ambiguity, and get a check on the error. In practice, flight computers
like the SN-10 make lots of measurements and keep a running calculation
of the wind by filtering out the measurement errors.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Ray Roberts" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Re: Calculation of windspeed and wind direction without circling:
> >
> > Here's my understanding. If it's not correct, doubtless someone will
> > straighten me out and I will have learned something. DISCLAIMER: I have
> > absolutely no "inside" information on the algorithms used in the SN10!
> >
> > Aircraft heading (direction the nose is pointing) and airspeed together
> > define a velocity vector that can be drawn as an arrow on a piece of
> > paper, the angle of the arrow representing the direction and the length of
> > the
> ...
> > In the case of a sailplane with an SN10 that has input from a GPS, we have
> > three knowns, namely true airspeed (the SN10 can compute this from pitot
> > pressure, static pressure, altitude and temperature), groundspeed and
> > track (the last two come from the GPS). There are three unknowns, aircraft
> > heading, wind direction and windspeed. Basically, multiple unknowns can be
> > calculated by setting up and solving simultaneous equations. There are
> > well known mathematical and computer algorithms for doing this.
> ...
> > makes sense. If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the
> > SN10, thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle",
> > this would not be necessary. One lives in hope...
> >
>
>
> For $300 you can add a fluxgate compass that will communicate via NMEA...
> Fixing the software to use it would be up to you.
>
> Of course, the heading information will only be good when you are flying
> straight and level...
>
> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/43158/10001/606/137/14
>
> --
> Geoff
> the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Doug Haluza]

No, the ILEC SN-10 cannot compute winds in straight/level flight. In
fact, there is a known problem when flying long straight runs in ridge
lift, where the wind speed drifts up to unreasonable values (like as
much as double the true speed). It also tends to hold on to a higher
wind speed when the wind dimishes. This can be big trouble when flying
along a ridge into a becalmed area. When you turn around and then
towards your field to land, the wind display updates, but by then it's
too late.

This is not a software bug per se, it is just a limitation of using GPS
and airspeed to measure wind without a heading sensor. Adding a
magnetic heading sensor won't really help, because the heading error is
similar to the crab angle. So without a lot of calibration, you won't
see much benefit, and you just introduce the possibility of greater
error. A two antenna GPS would be a good solution, but the current
consumer products are intended for marine applications, and are not set
up to handle high bank angles.

[Doug Haluza]

I actually have the same Azimuth 1000 flux gate compass installed on
the rear instrument panel of my Janus C. It is coupled via NMEA to an
RMI microEncoder in the front panel.

One problem with the set-up is that the S/H two-place one-piece canopy
has a steel cross member, so the compass reading changes by more than 5
degrees between open and closed canopy. Also, even though it is tilt
compensated by mounting the flux gate on a gimball, it does not produce
consistent readings when tilted. I assume this is because the tilt
compensation alters the hard/soft iron compensation.

I looked at installing a remote flux gate, but there is no place in the
glider to mount it far enough from the steel flight control push/pull
rods. This is a real problem for getting accurate heading info from a
magnetic sensor in a glider.

P.S. Ray points out that with any two vectors, you can draw the vectors
tip to tail to complete the wind triangle. With one vector (GPS) and a
scalar (TAS) you can draw a circle around the tip of the vector to
create a family of wind triangles. With a second set of measurements on
another heading, you can draw another circle which intersects the first
at two places. With another set of measurements, you can remove the
ambiguity, and get a check on the error. In practice, flight computers
like the SN-10 make lots of measurements and keep a running calculation
of the wind by filtering out the measurement errors.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> "Ray Roberts" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Re: Calculation of windspeed and wind direction without circling:
> >
> > Here's my understanding. If it's not correct, doubtless someone will
> > straighten me out and I will have learned something. DISCLAIMER: I have
> > absolutely no "inside" information on the algorithms used in the SN10!
> >
> > Aircraft heading (direction the nose is pointing) and airspeed together
> > define a velocity vector that can be drawn as an arrow on a piece of
> > paper, the angle of the arrow representing the direction and the length of
> > the
> ...
> > In the case of a sailplane with an SN10 that has input from a GPS, we have
> > three knowns, namely true airspeed (the SN10 can compute this from pitot
> > pressure, static pressure, altitude and temperature), groundspeed and
> > track (the last two come from the GPS). There are three unknowns, aircraft
> > heading, wind direction and windspeed. Basically, multiple unknowns can be
> > calculated by setting up and solving simultaneous equations. There are
> > well known mathematical and computer algorithms for doing this.
> ...
> > makes sense. If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the
> > SN10, thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle",
> > this would not be necessary. One lives in hope...
> >
>
>
> For $300 you can add a fluxgate compass that will communicate via NMEA...
> Fixing the software to use it would be up to you.
>
> Of course, the heading information will only be good when you are flying
> straight and level...
>
> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/43158/10001/606/137/14
>
> --
> Geoff
> the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.

[Ray Roberts]

From the Zander website home.wxs.nl/~kpt9/Rozander.htm :

"The compass option for wind calculation during straight flight and circle
wind calculation based on GPS data, provide wind speed and wind direction
all the time."

I think this explains how the Zander does the wind calculation when the
sailplane is banked.

Ray


"Francisco De Almeida" > wrote in message
...
>> Ray Roberts wrote:
>> If an accurate aircraft heading sensor were added to the SN10,=20
>> thus completely defining two of the vectors in the "wind triangle", =
> this=20
>> would not be necessary. One lives in hope...
>
> That is exactly what the Zander SR940, ZS1 and (I believe) all other =
> flight computers with compass coupling do. It makes good wind speed =
> readings possible in straight flight even without weaving. Furthermore, =
> for reasons that I cannot explain, the wind vectors calculated by the =
> computers above in circular flight are not affected by bank angle =
> changes.
>
>
>
>
>

[Ray Roberts]

The problem mentioned below is not confined to the wind SPEED calculation.
Some months ago I flew a fairly straight ridge at 80 kts for many miles,
with the SN10 telling me that the wind was straight along the ridge. I knew
the calculated wind angle could not possibly be correct, because if it had
been, there would have been no ridge lift to keep me airborne, nor would I
have tracked along the ridge with the big crab angle between the ridge and
the nose of the sailplane that was clearly visible outside the canopy.
Eventually I made a couple of circles, after which the SN10 gave me a much
more sensible wind result.
Ray

"Doug Haluza" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> No, the ILEC SN-10 cannot compute winds in straight/level flight. In
> fact, there is a known problem when flying long straight runs in ridge
> lift, where the wind speed drifts up to unreasonable values (like as
> much as double the true speed). It also tends to hold on to a higher
> wind speed when the wind dimishes. This can be big trouble when flying
> along a ridge into a becalmed area. When you turn around and then
> towards your field to land, the wind display updates, but by then it's
> too late.
>
> This is not a software bug per se, it is just a limitation of using GPS
> and airspeed to measure wind without a heading sensor. Adding a
> magnetic heading sensor won't really help, because the heading error is
> similar to the crab angle. So without a lot of calibration, you won't
> see much benefit, and you just introduce the possibility of greater
> error. A two antenna GPS would be a good solution, but the current
> consumer products are intended for marine applications, and are not set
> up to handle high bank angles.
>