Visual Appr.

[Stuart King]

The situation....

Your on an IFR plan, in VMC. You see the airport and make your call: N123
has the field.

ATC : N123 cleard for the visual approach to rwy 9, contact tower 123.4

You : cleared for the vis to 9, over tower...thanks.

You : acb tower N123 with you on the visual to 9.

Tower : N123 roger, enter a left downwind for 9.


Does this mean you stay on downwind, or are you just enetering the pattern
and can make base/final anytime.

Clearance to land has not yet been given.


SK

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message
om...
>
> The situation....
>
> Your on an IFR plan, in VMC. You see the airport and make your call:
N123
> has the field.
>
> ATC : N123 cleard for the visual approach to rwy 9, contact tower 123.4
>
> You : cleared for the vis to 9, over tower...thanks.
>
> You : acb tower N123 with you on the visual to 9.
>
> Tower : N123 roger, enter a left downwind for 9.
>
>
> Does this mean you stay on downwind, or are you just enetering the pattern
> and can make base/final anytime.
>
> Clearance to land has not yet been given.
>

It just means that you enter the pattern on a left downwind.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
om...
>
> It means that you can fly the visual approach starting with a left
downwind,
> followed by a base and final, but that you have not been cleared to land.
> The tower will still give you a cleared to land (or something else).
>

The visual approach started when center/approach said "cleared for the
visual approach to rwy 9".

[Ray Andraka]

Cleared the visual means you've been cleared for the full visual approach, so
you are basically the same as VFR traffic as far as clearance. At a towered
field, you have to follow any instructions given by the tower. In this case,
you are cleared for descent to TPA, fly the pattern and tower told you to enter
the left downwind for 9.

Stuart King wrote:

> The situation....
>
> Your on an IFR plan, in VMC. You see the airport and make your call: N123
> has the field.
>
> ATC : N123 cleard for the visual approach to rwy 9, contact tower 123.4
>
> You : cleared for the vis to 9, over tower...thanks.
>
> You : acb tower N123 with you on the visual to 9.
>
> Tower : N123 roger, enter a left downwind for 9.
>
> Does this mean you stay on downwind, or are you just enetering the pattern
> and can make base/final anytime.
>
> Clearance to land has not yet been given.
>
> SK

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> Cleared the visual means you've been cleared for the full visual approach,
>

Hmmmm,,,,,,,, is there a partial visual approach?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thats what i thought too, so i went on into hase and then announced N123
> left base for 9, hoping they would clear me to land (trying to be polite
and
> not say please clear me to land) and I got my head bit off because I was
> only cleared for a downwind for 9.
>

If they didn't tell you to extend your downwind there's no reason for you
not to turn base. Their error.

[Maule Driver]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
news:Gjl6b.1216> >
> > It means that you can fly the visual approach starting with a left
> downwind,
> > followed by a base and final, but that you have not been cleared to
land.
> > The tower will still give you a cleared to land (or something else).
> >
>
> The visual approach started when center/approach said "cleared for the
> visual approach to rwy 9".
>
That's right.

[Steve P]

On 9/6/2003 5:17 AM after considerable forethought, Stuart King wrote:
> The situation....
>
> Your on an IFR plan, in VMC. You see the airport and make your call: N123
> has the field.
>
> ATC : N123 cleard for the visual approach to rwy 9, contact tower 123.4
>
> You : cleared for the vis to 9, over tower...thanks.
>
> You : acb tower N123 with you on the visual to 9.
>
> Tower : N123 roger, enter a left downwind for 9.
>
>
> Does this mean you stay on downwind, or are you just enetering the pattern
> and can make base/final anytime.
>
> Clearance to land has not yet been given.
>
>
> SK
>
>

If I'm told to enter the downwind or any part of the pattern and have
NOT been cleared to land, I report once that's been completed. I find
it common to be told to enter left downwind, and I end up reporting,
"N123 abeam the tower left downwind" A few airports around here use
both right and left traffic simultaneously so it's important to let the
tower know when you need to be a part of the consideration for landing.
If I hear there are several planes in the pattern, I'll try to report
when entering and add "wing up" so they can pick me out more easily.

Steve P

[Stan Gosnell]

"Stuart King" > wrote
in :

> Thats what i thought too, so i went on into hase and then
> announced N123 left base for 9, hoping they would clear me
> to land (trying to be polite and not say please clear me to
> land) and I got my head bit off because I was only cleared
> for a downwind for 9.

Sounds like a poor controller who got behind or something.
Unless he specifically told me he'd call my base, I'd turn base
at the appropriate place. IMO if the controller doesn't want
you to turn base until he clears you to, he should tell you
that. Normal procedure is to make the base at the normal place,
to avoid delaying the other traffic.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Steve P]

On 9/6/2003 8:23 PM after considerable forethought, Stan Gosnell wrote:
> "Stuart King" > wrote
> in :
>
>
>>Thats what i thought too, so i went on into hase and then
>>announced N123 left base for 9, hoping they would clear me
>>to land (trying to be polite and not say please clear me to
>>land) and I got my head bit off because I was only cleared
>>for a downwind for 9.
>
>
> Sounds like a poor controller who got behind or something.
> Unless he specifically told me he'd call my base, I'd turn base
> at the appropriate place. IMO if the controller doesn't want
> you to turn base until he clears you to, he should tell you
> that. Normal procedure is to make the base at the normal place,
> to avoid delaying the other traffic.
>
I think you need to let the controller know when you are in downwind.
I've been told to enter left downwind when 10 miles out.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Steve P" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> I think you need to let the controller know when you are in downwind.
> I've been told to enter left downwind when 10 miles out.
>

The controller didn't call for a downwind report.

[Stan Gosnell]

Steve P > wrote in
k.net:

> I think you need to let the controller know when you are
> in downwind.
> I've been told to enter left downwind when 10 miles out.

Yeah, well, I was assuming that, but maybe I was assuming too
much. I've also received a clearance into Class B airspace &
never talked to the tower again. HOU gets really busy
sometimes, & it can be tough to break in. Flying a helicopter &
landing to a pad, they don't give me a landing clearance anyway,
so I just came on in & landed as usual without ever talking
again.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Snowbird]

Steve P > wrote in message >...

> I think you need to let the controller know when you are in downwind.

Really? Why?

He didn't ask for a report -- is this some mandatory report on a
visual approach that I'm clueless about?

> I've been told to enter left downwind when 10 miles out.

So have I. In fact, I've been cleared to land when 10 miles
out, and the next thing I heard was 'taxi to the ramp, this
frequency' after I cleared the runway.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message >...
> Thats what i thought too, so i went on into hase and then announced N123
> left base for 9, hoping they would clear me to land (trying to be polite and
> not say please clear me to land) and I got my head bit off because I was
> only cleared for a downwind for 9.

At this point, I would land and call the tower to try to clarify
what happened.

Is it possible that you were instructed "report downwind" or "extend
downwind", and you missed it? If that's the case, I personally would
want to know it.

AFAIK, an instruction to "enter left downwind" is not a "clearance",
and no "clearance" is required to turn base. If the controller is
under the impression that an aircraft instructed as you were requires
a clearance to turn base and will continue downwind indefinately
without it, someone's understanding needs to be changed.

Regards,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

Steve P > wrote in message t>...

> I'm not saying "need" as in required by FAR/AIM, but I consider it good
> practice to add an extra layer of safety.

How does it add an extra layer of safety to report downwind,
when you weren't asked to? (I'm not trying to be snarky, I'd
like to know how you see it)

> I guess if you're flying into
> an airport without any traffic it doesn't matter

Well, as you point out, one is never *sure* one is flying into
an airport without any traffic. There could always be the guy
who reported in from further out, just before you changed
frequency, or the guy in a fast jet ATC just handed over.

> So as an extra element of caution, I report to ATC so I'm on their
> mental radar to avoid turning base in front of a slow plane that was
> cleared for landing on a long straight in that I'm not aware of. Like I
> said, at an airport where there isn't any traffic it's not an issue.
> When I enter downwind, I'm often number 2 if not number 4 to land.

If you're number 4 to land with aircraft waiting to take off,
the frequency may be fairly busy (and the controller perhaps working
other freqs you're not aware of or coordinating with approach).

How does it help safety for you to make additional, unrequested
radio reports? Seems to me you may well block a radio transmission
which needs to be made. I can see more than one side of the "safety"
issue. If an extra report when entering downwind is good, and
increases safety, what about reporting each leg of the pattern?

What would you do if the freq were so busy you couldn't really
get a word in edgewise while approaching downwind? Would you
proceed, or what would you do?

> then there is always the guy on ground who wants to take off before you
> land. If you remind ATC where are, it may allow that additional plane
> to get off the ground and most pilots departing the field appreciate not
> having to wait for a plane on downwind.

I don't understand this at all. If there's space for ATC to clear
the aircraft for takeoff after you remind ATC that you're on downwind,
isn't there space if you don't remind ATC where you are? Either they
see you and know perfectly well where you are, or, if they've forgotten
about you they're gonna think there's space anyway.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Robert M. Gary]

The best way to think about it is that "cleared for the visual"
releases you from any altitude or heading/course restrictions that
were part of your previous clearance and allows you to visually enter
the pattern (in this case on a left downwind). Before the visual
clearance you were stuck at an altitude and course because of your
clearance. Remeber though that you are still IFR, a visual approach
cannot be given to a VFR aircraft. Don't forget to cancel your IFR at
some point if its not a towered field.

-Robert



"Stuart King" > wrote in message >...
> The situation....
>
> Your on an IFR plan, in VMC. You see the airport and make your call: N123
> has the field.
>
> ATC : N123 cleard for the visual approach to rwy 9, contact tower 123.4
>
> You : cleared for the vis to 9, over tower...thanks.
>
> You : acb tower N123 with you on the visual to 9.
>
> Tower : N123 roger, enter a left downwind for 9.
>
>
> Does this mean you stay on downwind, or are you just enetering the pattern
> and can make base/final anytime.
>
> Clearance to land has not yet been given.
>
>
> SK