Re: Can an instructor do this?

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

>Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
>equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
>in IFR.
>
>Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.
>
>Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
>instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.
>
>Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
>(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
>with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?
>
>It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
>PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
>cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
>and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
>have to admit, I really don't know.

I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:

Someone has to be PIC.
In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.

Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[john price]

My take has always been no... Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't
seem to understand that once the wheels leave the ground, a
tailwheel plane is just an airplane!!!! Ran into this a few years back
on a trip to Sun & Fun in a friends Maule before I got my TW
endorsement... Already had my IFR rating, but the owner
didn't...

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price



"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:
>
> >Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
> >equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
> >in IFR.
> >
> >Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.
> >
> >Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
> >instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.
> >
> >Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
> >(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
> >with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?
> >
> >It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
> >PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
> >cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
> >and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
> >have to admit, I really don't know.
>
> I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:
>
> Someone has to be PIC.
> In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
> To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.
>
> Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Leland Vandervort]

Does the concept of "P1S" (Pilot in command under supervision) not
exist in the US? When operating thus, the client would be PIC under
supervision, but the captain would be the instructor/examiner.

In europe, for example, when you take your PPL flight test, it is
taken as P1S. If you pass, it counts as PIC time, and if you do not
pass, it is simply P/UT (Pilot Under Tuition) time.

Leland





On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:21:54 GMT, "john price"
> wrote:

>My take has always been no... Unfortunately, the FAA doesn't
>seem to understand that once the wheels leave the ground, a
>tailwheel plane is just an airplane!!!! Ran into this a few years back
>on a trip to Sun & Fun in a friends Maule before I got my TW
>endorsement... Already had my IFR rating, but the owner
>didn't...
>
>John Price
>CFII/AGI/IGI
>http://home.att.net/~jm.price
>
>
>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
>> On 6 Sep 2003 17:55:47 -0700, (Doug) wrote:
>>
>> >Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
>> >equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
>> >in IFR.
>> >
>> >Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.
>> >
>> >Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
>> >instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.
>> >
>> >Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
>> >(after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
>> >with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?
>> >
>> >It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
>> >PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
>> >cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
>> >and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
>> >have to admit, I really don't know.
>>
>> I'll stick my head out and say NO ... because:
>>
>> Someone has to be PIC.
>> In instrument conditions, the PIC must have an instrument rating.
>> To be PIC in a tailwheel a/c, one must have a tailwheel endorsement.
>>
>> Neither pilot in the above scenario meets the requirements.
>>
>>
>> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Leland Vandervort" > wrote in message
...
>
> Does the concept of "P1S" (Pilot in command under supervision) not
> exist in the US? When operating thus, the client would be PIC under
> supervision, but the captain would be the instructor/examiner.

Not as described above.

You can be PIC while receiving instruction, but you have to meet the
requirements for PIC. If you don't, then the instructor must be PIC and
meet the requirements for that. An odd quirk is that you can log PIC
while the instructor is PIC, but that's not material here.

> In europe, for example, when you take your PPL flight test, it is
> taken as P1S. If you pass, it counts as PIC time, and if you do not
> pass, it is simply P/UT (Pilot Under Tuition) time.

In the US there is special dispensation given to student pilots to allow
them to be PIC on their flight tests. Actually, there is no strict requirement
that the examinee be PIC on flight tests either.

[Michael]

The answer here is a resounding no.

From 14CFR61.31(i) ... no person may act as pilot in command of a
tailwheel airplane unless that person has ... received an endorsement
in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the
person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane.

Note that this is not limited to takeoff and landing. Therefore, the
CFII who lacks a tailwheel endorsement may not serve as PIC in a
tailwheel airplane at all. The student, who lacks an instrument
rating, may not serve as PIC under IFR.

As a practical matter, this would work fine until the day the weather
was really bad. When ceilings are low (say less than 500 ft) and
visibilities are bad (less than 2 miles) it often becomes necessary or
highly desirable to land with a quartering tailwind, on wet pavement,
with insufficient visibility for precise aircraft control without
reference to instruments, or all the above. In such conditions, one
really needs instrument experience AND tailwheel experience to
successfully make the transition from instrument flight to visual
flight and a safe landing. The process is not inherently different
for a tailwheel airplane than it is for a tri-gear airplane, but there
are things you can get by with in a trike that will put you in the
weeds (or worse) in a taildragger.

Michael

(Doug) wrote
> Client is an instrument rated pilot with his own tailwheel, instrument
> equipped airplane. Client is current on tailwheel, but lacks currency
> in IFR.
>
> Instructor is CFII and current, but lacks a tailwheel endorsement.
>
> Client wants to take off in VFR, and open an IFR flight plan (on the
> instructors qualifications), and fly the IFR flight plan.
>
> Can the instructor file an IFR flight plan and open it in the air
> (after takeoff) fly the IFR flight plan and cancel IFR before landing
> with the agreement that the client is PIC for takeoff and landing?
>
> It seems to me that the question is "is it necessary to be acting as
> PIC in order to open and accept an IFR clearance?" because the CFII
> cannot act as PIC in a tailwheel aircraft, yet he does have "catagory
> and class" ratings necessary to accept an IFR clearance. But I will
> have to admit, I really don't know.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 8 Sep 2003 18:09:39 -0700, (Doug) wrote:

>I make the arguement that
>the tailwheel pilot is PIC for the entire flight,

Then you haven't been reading the responses to your original question.

If the tailwheel pilot acts as PIC for the portion of the flight that is
conducted under IFR, he is in violation of 61.3(e)(1)

===========================
61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil
aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums
prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
*instrument rating* on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
============================








Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Natalie]

"Doug" > wrote in message om...

> Yes, but read the section on what is required to accept an IFR
> clearance

There is no such section. There are no rules about "accepting"
IFR clearances. The rules only cover requirements on the pilot
in command when operating under IFR (which you are when you
accept an IFR clearance)>

> It does NOT say the pilot accepting the clearance needs to be "signed
> off for tailwheel" or other endorsements

It doesn't need to. There are dozens of lines in Part 61 that say
"No person may act as pilot in command unless ... " You can't just
omit some of them. By your logic 61.57 recent flight experience
doesn't apply because 61.3 doesn't say you need it.

>. Nor does it say the pilot
> accepting the IFR clearance needs to be PIC.

As soon as the aircraft starts operating under IFR, the pilot in command
must meet the requirements for an instrument rating (as well as all
the other pilot in command requirements).

> make the arguement that
> the tailwheel pilot is PIC for the entire flight, and the instructor
> is accepting the IFR clearance.

That's fine. But 61.3 says that the pilot in ocmmand under IFR
requires an instrument rating and 61.57 says the pilot in command under
IFR has to be current.

How do you get aroiund that?

[Michael]

(Doug) wrote
> I make the arguement that
> the tailwheel pilot is PIC for the entire flight, and the instructor
> is accepting the IFR clearance.

Then the tailwheel pilot is in violation of 14CFR61.3(e):

14CFR61.3(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command
of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the
minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and
instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane,
helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

Michael

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 23:24:32 GMT, "Craig Davidson" >
wrote:

>What's the difference between a tricycle gear airplane and a tail wheel
>airplane - is it a different category, class or type?

A tricycle gear airplane has a nosewheel and two mains.
A tail wheel airplane has a tailwheel and two mains.

They may or may not be a different category, class or type.

However, given the context of your question, you should know that a pilot
has to be in compliance with ALL applicable regulations. In the setting of
the OP's question, not only is compliance with 14 CFR 61.3(e) required, but
also compliance with 14 CFR 61.31(i)(1)

.... no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless
that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized
instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the
person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person
proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane...


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Natalie]

"Craig Davidson" > wrote in message news:Qit7b.5684
>
> What's the difference between a tricycle gear airplane and a tail wheel
> airplane - is it a different category, class or type?
>
They're different types, but not in a situation that requires a type rating to fly them.