Flying without FAA medical or insurance

[Doodybutch]

Last year, an acquaintance of mine turned 85 and stopped flying and sold his
airplane. He just figured that he had done it long enough and he wasn't as
sharp as he used to be. He flew a lot right up until he sold his plane and
he was quite experienced. I suspect for private reasons that he had not
passed an FAA physical in years and that he did not bother to buy insurance,
since the company would refuse to pay anyway if he smashed up the airplane
without a valid physical.

So... I'd like to throw out two questions to this group ...

1) If you can't pass a physical or you don't feel like getting a license and
you feel like flying anyway and you are willing to accept the liability
personally without any insurance, exactly what's to stop you from taking
this path?

2) How many pilots do you think are doing just this? From reading the FAA
accident reports, I suspect it's more than a few.

I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
platitudes - just the pros and cons.

DB

[sfb]

Going naked - no license or insurance - depends on how well you have
buried your money so the lawyers can't get to it. At 85, if his wife has
passed and his kids have their own money, he isn't risking that much
financially.

"Doodybutch" > wrote in message
...
> Last year, an acquaintance of mine turned 85 and stopped flying and
> sold his airplane. He just figured that he had done it long enough
> and he wasn't as sharp as he used to be. He flew a lot right up until
> he sold his plane and he was quite experienced. I suspect for private
> reasons that he had not passed an FAA physical in years and that he
> did not bother to buy insurance, since the company would refuse to pay
> anyway if he smashed up the airplane without a valid physical.
>
> So... I'd like to throw out two questions to this group ...
>
> 1) If you can't pass a physical or you don't feel like getting a
> license and you feel like flying anyway and you are willing to accept
> the liability personally without any insurance, exactly what's to stop
> you from taking this path?
>
> 2) How many pilots do you think are doing just this? From reading the
> FAA accident reports, I suspect it's more than a few.
>
> I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
> platitudes - just the pros and cons.
>
> DB
>
>
>

[Matt Whiting]

sfb wrote:

>>I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
>>platitudes - just the pros and cons.

My opinion is that only idiots provide information to people who get
preachy and tell people how to respond to their posts.

Matt

[Doodybutch]

It's my post, Matt, not yours. I can ask for anything I want. Therefore
you and you alone have my permission to get preachy.

DB

[Roy Smith]

Doodybutch > wrote:
>1) If you can't pass a physical or you don't feel like getting a license and
>you feel like flying anyway and you are willing to accept the liability
>personally without any insurance, exactly what's to stop you from taking
>this path?

Very little. It's unlikely anybody will ever ask to see your
paperwork unless you do something stupid.

>2) How many pilots do you think are doing just this? From reading the FAA
>accident reports, I suspect it's more than a few.

I'm sure it is. Just like driving a car without insurance or with a
suspended license. Or practicing medicine, doing electrical work,
etc. Just the other day, I heard a rumor that a local barbershop had
people cutting hair without a license. A barbershop that I used to
frequent. For all I know, my folicles have been violated multiple
times.

[sfb]

I hope you fly better than you navigate Usenet as I never said that.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> sfb wrote:
>
>>>I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
>>>platitudes - just the pros and cons.
>
> My opinion is that only idiots provide information to people who get
> preachy and tell people how to respond to their posts.
>
> Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Doodybutch wrote:
> It's my post, Matt, not yours. I can ask for anything I want. Therefore
> you and you alone have my permission to get preachy.

You asked for opinions. I posted mine.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

sfb wrote:

> I hope you fly better than you navigate Usenet as I never said that.
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>sfb wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
>>>>platitudes - just the pros and cons.
>>
>>My opinion is that only idiots provide information to people who get
>>preachy and tell people how to respond to their posts.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
>

Sorry about that. I was trimming the post and trimmed too much.

Matt

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:30:38 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:

>For all I know, my folicles have been violated multiple
>times.

And was that good for you?
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[darthpup]

First, you are required by FAA regulations to have a physical.
Second, in some states it is mandatory to have insurance.

If you violate both the above you would probably have your license
revoked and charged by the state for violation of the law.

Of course if you do the above and have an accident then the judical
vermin would ravage your carcass in court.

This is not really a difficult problem to consider.

Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???

[Dave Stadt]

"darthpup" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> First, you are required by FAA regulations to have a physical.
> Second, in some states it is mandatory to have insurance.
>
> If you violate both the above you would probably have your license
> revoked and charged by the state for violation of the law.
>
> Of course if you do the above and have an accident then the judical
> vermin would ravage your carcass in court.
>
> This is not really a difficult problem to consider.
>
> Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???

He could probably fly for decades and never get caught. Fly in and out of
small Podunk strips. Doing so is much more common than many think. Same as
driving a car without a license or insurance.

[David Lesher]

"Dave Stadt" > writes:


>He could probably fly for decades and never get caught. Fly in and out of
>small Podunk strips. Doing so is much more common than many think. Same as
>driving a car without a license or insurance.

I have an ex-boss who flew IFR with years without a rating.
For all I know, he still does.

That doesn't make right....





--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Bret Ludwig]

Dave Stadt wrote:
<<snip>>

> > This is not really a difficult problem to consider.
> >
> > Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???
>
> He could probably fly for decades and never get caught. Fly in and out of
> small Podunk strips. Doing so is much more common than many think. Same as
> driving a car without a license or insurance.

The great aviatrix Pancho Barnes never had a legit pilot's license
until very late in life. She had to log 20 dual and 20 solo hours and
took the PP-ASEL checkride although she already had thousands of logged
hours. She kept a log-they just weren't valid. Viktor Belenko had the
same problem, I believe- they would have honored his Soviet military
pilot card and logs, but they were back in Mother Russia, and the Sovs
weren't about to forward them! When the Wall came down they did, and he
was able to get advanced ratings-I don't know if he ever got a MiG LOA!

A lot of rural people bought airplanes cash and flew them in partial
or total disregard of regulations. Some would get dual under a student
ticket and never take the checkride. In the 60s and 70s it was well
known some would buy Bonanzas, cabin twins, you name it, file IFR and
had never had any license or ratings. There were even rumors of people
who would buy Lears cash and fly them around with anyone gullible
enough to sit in the right seat. Many others would get legal at one
point and then just quit getting medicals and BFRs and whatnot.

I'm sure there people flying in the bushes "bootleg" but if they are
going in and out of controlled fields sooner or later they are going to
run into ramp checks, or someone will put two and two together. If
you're really old or really wealthy and judgement proof you may say
WTF, but I can't imagine young people in any numbers doing this.

I'm not sure what they'd do to you today. If people are doing it in
numbers, they are getting nailed at least often enough to supply the
answer. Anyone "know"?

[darthpup]

Its comforting to hear such lame reasoning coming from licensed?
pilots.

Do I detect a note of lawlessness here?

[Roy Smith]

darthpup > wrote:
>Its comforting to hear such lame reasoning coming from licensed?
>pilots.
>
>Do I detect a note of lawlessness here?

I haven't heard anybody advocating lawlessness, just being honest
about admitting that it exists, and admitting that people who engage
in it are unlikely to get caught. To pretend otherwise would be foolish.

[Joe Johnson]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:30:38 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:
>
> >For all I know, my folicles have been violated multiple
> >times.
>
> And was that good for you?
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

ROFL...

[David Lesher]

I said:

>I have an ex-boss who flew IFR with years without a rating.
>For all I know, he still does.

>That doesn't make right....


Hours later, it occurs to me that a reader here might think I was
referring to a far more recent ex-boss, one who posts here.

I was not.

When I worked for Chuck, he was spending all his money on boats err
MMU's not AMU's. I don't even know if he'd been in a GA aircraft
back then.

The ex-boss I referred was long ago, before I went to engineering
school...and about 65% of Chuck's size. He fit into a Mooney.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jim Carter]

Darthpup,

I bought my first aircraft from a little old carpenter who had
diabetes and couldn't pass the physical. He NEVER had a license or a
medical but he flew for over 20 years before ground-looping the Funk in
a crosswind (tail wheel was unlocked) and folding up a gear leg.

This was in Tulsa, Ok back where there was a real FSDO to come
inspect the incident. The FAA and the owner worked a deal out: sell the
bird and we won't press charges. I bought the thing, worked on it all
winter, and enjoyed the heck out of that thing until I sold it about 4
years later.

So, will you go to jail if you don't have a license? Maybe so
today, but not very often back in the '70s and '80s.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: darthpup ]
> Posted At: Sunday, January 01, 2006 4:28 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
> Conversation: Flying without FAA medical or insurance
> Subject: Re: Flying without FAA medical or insurance
>
> First, you are required by FAA regulations to have a physical.
> Second, in some states it is mandatory to have insurance.
>
> If you violate both the above you would probably have your license
> revoked and charged by the state for violation of the law.
>
> Of course if you do the above and have an accident then the judical
> vermin would ravage your carcass in court.
>
> This is not really a difficult problem to consider.
>
> Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???

[A. Smith]

"David Lesher" > wrote in message
...
> Hours later, it occurs to me that a reader here might think I was
> referring to a far more recent ex-boss, one who posts here.
>
> I was not.
> The ex-boss I referred was long ago, before I went to engineering
> school...and about 65% of Chuck's size. He fit into a Mooney.
>
>
And the hole just gets deeper and deeper......

[Doodybutch]

I don't think the FAA has the authority to send anyone to jail - has anybody
ever heard of being arrested by the FAA?

I don't think they have the power to confiscate airplanes either - the only
ones I have ever seen confiscated are done by US Customs or Repo men.

DB

[darthpup]

Depending of the circumstances the FAA could call in the US Attorneys
Office to have criminal charges filed and would of course seize the
aircraft as evidence.

You want to fly aircraft in the US without a license and cause severe
material or personal damage and just watch what happens.

[Michael Ware]

If you are piloting an aircraft that causes severe material damage, you
probably aren't going to be around to worry about the feds.

"darthpup" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Depending of the circumstances the FAA could call in the US Attorneys
> Office to have criminal charges filed and would of course seize the
> aircraft as evidence.
>
> You want to fly aircraft in the US without a license and cause severe
> material or personal damage and just watch what happens.
>

[Chuck]

Thanks Dave, and my IFR is current.

Here's a story that a CFI in Tucson, AZ told me some years ago.

One Friday, a rancher came up to him and said that he had just bought a
plane and wanted to learn to fly that weekend. My friend started to
outline the steps to a private when he was interrupted with, "No, No, I
just want to learn to fly this weekend!" After some discussion, my
friend realized he had a couple of days to teach this man. On Monday,
he flew his plane home. Did the CFI do right? I don't know, but he
probably kept the rancher from trying to fly with no instruction.

Also, the charts in the AZ area show ranches, I think it's because
most have an airstrip of sorts and the rancher has a plane. Licenses?
Who knows.

Chuck

David Lesher wrote:
> I said:
>
> >I have an ex-boss who flew IFR with years without a rating.
> >For all I know, he still does.
>
> >That doesn't make right....
>
>
> Hours later, it occurs to me that a reader here might think I was
> referring to a far more recent ex-boss, one who posts here.
>
> I was not.
>
> When I worked for Chuck, he was spending all his money on boats err
> MMU's not AMU's. I don't even know if he'd been in a GA aircraft
> back then.
>
> The ex-boss I referred was long ago, before I went to engineering
> school...and about 65% of Chuck's size. He fit into a Mooney.
>
>
> --
> A host is a host from coast to
> & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
> Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
> is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Steve Foley]

From my limited understanding, you are violating FARs by flying without a
medical. When you are caught, they can pull your cert, but not much more.

When you get caught flying without a cert, you're facing criminal charges.



"Doodybutch" > wrote in message
...

> 1) If you can't pass a physical or you don't feel like getting a license
and
> you feel like flying anyway and you are willing to accept the liability
> personally without any insurance, exactly what's to stop you from taking
> this path?

> I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
> platitudes - just the pros and cons.

[David Lesher]

"Doodybutch" > writes:

>I don't think the FAA has the authority to send anyone to jail - has anybody
>ever heard of being arrested by the FAA?

There are FAA Special Agents. Find the story of Gregory Travis's hijacking...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Dave Stadt]

"darthpup" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Its comforting to hear such lame reasoning coming from licensed?
> pilots.
>
> Do I detect a note of lawlessness here?

I detect someone reading and DETECTING that which is not there. No one said
it was a good thing but it happens more than many people think. If you
can't handle the facts you might want to turn your computer off.

[Dave Stadt]

"darthpup" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Depending of the circumstances the FAA could call in the US Attorneys
> Office to have criminal charges filed and would of course seize the
> aircraft as evidence.


Cite? Didn't think so.

>
> You want to fly aircraft in the US without a license and cause severe
> material or personal damage and just watch what happens.
>

[Otis Winslow]

Doodybutch wrote:

>
> I welcome your opinions. Don't bother with preachy, holier-than-thou
> platitudes - just the pros and cons.
>
> DB
>
>
>
I don't need no stinking license.

[Greg B]

"Doodybutch" > wrote in message
...
> 1) If you can't pass a physical or you don't feel like getting a license
> and you feel like flying anyway and you are willing to accept the
> liability personally without any insurance, exactly what's to stop you
> from taking this path?
>
> 2) How many pilots do you think are doing just this? From reading the FAA
> accident reports, I suspect it's more than a few.

I know a few pilots and aircraft owners that never had a certificate and
others that have lost their medical but still fly. It happens out in the
middle of no where...

[George Patterson]

Doodybutch wrote:
> I don't think the FAA has the authority to send anyone to jail - has anybody
> ever heard of being arrested by the FAA?

The FAA doesn't have the power to imprison people.

> I don't think they have the power to confiscate airplanes either - the only
> ones I have ever seen confiscated are done by US Customs or Repo men.

The FAA has been known to convince judges to issue restraining orders and have
aircraft impounded, but I've never heard of a case in which the aircraft was
confiscated.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Montblack]

>>I don't think the FAA has the authority to send anyone to jail - has
>>anybody
>>ever heard of being arrested by the FAA?

("David Lesher" wrote)
> There are FAA Special Agents. Find the story of Gregory Travis's
> hijacking...


http://www.prime-mover.org/Personal/travis.txt
Fantastic read! ...and funny.

His 1991 rec.aviation story starts below the news piece:

"Ok, so you get the general idea. Here's an eyewitness account:"

[Random snips]

"My plane was in its hangar. The closest source of water was a few hangar
rows away. I took my tools (bucket, mops, etc) over to rinse them out. In a
few minutes a young man appeared (out of nowhere) with a shotgun and
announced that I was his hostage."

"Turns out he was looking for authority figures to blow away. He told me he
had tried to kill his boss that night, but couldn't find him."

"During my preflight of the airplane I reach in and set a certain box. I am
almost nailed but lie and say I was reaching for a chart (which was next to
the box, thank god.)"

"I actually remember thinking how nice it was to fly at night without
worrying about the engine because I am so scared of getting my head blown
off. My passenger is getting very nervous due to the rain."


Montblack

[Peter R.]

Doodybutch > wrote:

> It's my post, Matt, not yours.

You may have authored it, but the minute you posted it to Usenet you lost
control of it.

> I can ask for anything I want.

True, and you can **** directly into the wind, too.



--
Peter

[Robert M. Gary]

I've heard rumor that some states have penal codes that prohibit flying
w/o a license (i.e. you can go to jail). (or more likely taxiing an
airplane for the purpose of flight since states have almost no power
regarding airbourne aircraft). Certainly the feds don't have the
ability to send you to jail.

-Robert

[Roger]

On 1 Jan 2006 14:28:01 -0800, "darthpup" >
wrote:

>First, you are required by FAA regulations to have a physical.
>Second, in some states it is mandatory to have insurance.

It's a given that the first was going to be ignored.
Make the assumption that we are not in one of the second states.
>
>If you violate both the above you would probably have your license
>revoked and charged by the state for violation of the law.

How do they revoke what you didn't have?
>
>Of course if you do the above and have an accident then the judical
>vermin would ravage your carcass in court.
>

Get blood out of a turnip? I think one of the lawyers in the
following case may have used the turnip phrase when speaking to the
insurance company lawyers.

Not long ago there was a CFI checking out a pilot in their new twin.
I'm not sure what went wrong, but they did a gear up in a *NEW* twin.
As can be expected the owner's insurance company went after the CFI
who has almost nothing. They might be able to garnishee the CFI's
wages if the CFI ever gets a steady job and makes enough to get above
the poverty level. So far it's been nada! The FAA did require some
remedial training for the CFI, but that was it. (as I understand it)

IF you have little financially and your kids are grown and gone you'd
have little to lose, at least up until recently. It's highly unlikely
someone is going to be flying an expensive airplane without insurance
or a valid medical.

Admittedly, if an individual has enough income to pay the rent for the
house or apartment, and gas for the plane this rapidly becomes a risky
proposition. The feds *might* not take everything you have, but the
insurance companies will if they can.

>This is not really a difficult problem to consider.
>
>Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???

There have been many who weren't.

Many a year ago (both pilots have long since been planted before I
moved here and that was 21 years ago)... Let's call them Joe and Sam.

Sam had passed and a bunch of the guys were back at the hangar telling
tall tales with Joe looking a tad more down than the rest. One of the
guys asked Joe why he was so down. Joe remarked that he just wasn't
going to be able to fly any more with Sam gone. When told he'd get
over it, he explained, "No I can fly without Sam as I always filed
IFR using his Name." (Joe didn't have the instrument rating). At this
there was a whole lot of laughter with another explaining, "Joe, you
got nothing to worry about as Sam never had an instrument rating
either!". Joe had been doing this for years.

It may be told in my own way, but I'm just repeating what I was told
about two of the past old timers who used to fly out of the area.

Things have changed much since then. For one, in Michigan the planes
need a state registration with a sticker that goes on the tail Other
than that there are no flags hanging out to say, "Hey! this one needs
to be ramp checked!"

However I don't think I'd want to do it and run the risk of being ramp
checked 1000 miles from home. Besides, most of my stuff is paid for
and I'd have too much to lose.

Until recently you would probably have risked little more than a fine
(if that) in most states. If you were caught and the plane was sold
by the time the case came up, probably not much would be done. Now
days it's a different world and with them getting picky about aircraft
registration, I'd assume they are going to be as picky about pilots.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger

[Roger]

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:27:11 GMT, "Dave Stadt" >
wrote:

>
>"darthpup" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> First, you are required by FAA regulations to have a physical.
>> Second, in some states it is mandatory to have insurance.
>>
>> If you violate both the above you would probably have your license
>> revoked and charged by the state for violation of the law.
>>
>> Of course if you do the above and have an accident then the judical
>> vermin would ravage your carcass in court.
>>
>> This is not really a difficult problem to consider.
>>
>> Is there a pilot here who thinks he will not be caught???
>
>He could probably fly for decades and never get caught. Fly in and out of
>small Podunk strips. Doing so is much more common than many think. Same as
>driving a car without a license or insurance.

According to our local police department that is almost a third of the
drivers in our county.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>

[Fly]

> hours. She kept a log-they just weren't valid. Viktor Belenko had the
> same problem, I believe- they would have honored his Soviet military
> pilot card and logs, but they were back in Mother Russia, and the Sovs
> weren't about to forward them! When the Wall came down they did, and he
> was able to get advanced ratings-I don't know if he ever got a MiG LOA!


What's Victor up nowdays?

Kent

[Fly]

">
> What's Victor up nowdays?


What I meant to ask was what is Belenko up nowadays? I remember the
headlines ofhis trip to Japan, then heard stories of him flying with U.S
military training groups during the late '80's but nothing since then.

Kent

[Michael]

Well, let me tell you some stories.

My girlfriend bought her first airplane in North Dakota (or somewhere
near) from a guy who just got his private license a few years prior. He
had been flying for decades. He had many friends who still had no
licenses. He owned an experimental biplane, which he barnstormed in -
and yes, I do mean he charged money for aerobatic rides. No
commercial, no parachutes, experimental airplane.

I know at least one airline captain who had several hours actual IMC,
on an IFR flight plan, with approaches and all, before he ever STARTED
working on his instrument rating.

There was, until recently, a student pilot based at my home field. In
fact, I soloed him at one point. He was just about ready for his
checkride - and then stopped taking lessons. Didn't stop flying, mind
you. He still flies, and carries passengers. No license. I sweated
this for the first 90 days, but now the endorsement I gave him is long
expired.

My girlfriend bought her third airplane from a guy who owned a Cessna
150 and later a TriPacer. He couldn't get a medical, but it didn't
stop him from accumulating hundreds of hours in the plane. It was not
until he bought an ultralight (which he COULD fly legally) that he
crashed.

This sort of thing is WAY more common than you think it is. I hear
there's an FAA initiative to have 50% of Alaska's pilots licensed by
2010. Based on my estimate of how many there are doing this, I am
surprised there are not more accidents in the NTSB database by
unlicensed pilots. I can only assume they are, as a whole, safer than
the general pilot population. But you asked about consequences. Here
goes.

A friend of mine (in fact, the same airline captain who had more IMC
experience than most CFII's before he got started on his rating) got
his glider license and tow pilot checkout at a little operation not far
from DC. Most of his training was done by an old geezer who instructed
and towed for the operation, but the final signoffs were done by
someone else for reasons that were never explained to him. One day,
the old geezer showed up, pulled out a glider, and asked my friend to
give him a tow. He dropped off about 1500 ft in good lift, and was
soon over the horizon.

Several hours later, they got a call. The old geezer had flown the
glider cross country and had landed - at Dulles International! In his
own words, he "had never been there and wanted to check it out."
Operations were shut down for 30 minutes while they figured out what to
do and got the sailplane off the runway.

The story unraveled. The geezer had lost his medical - and kept
flying, power as well as glider. He got caught (he wasn't exactly
keeping a low profile) and his license was pulled. He kept flying.
And now he was caught again. And what do you suppose the FAA did?
Told him not to do it again. He kept flying after that too.

So it goes.

Michael