Logging again

[Doug]

A Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land takes training in a
Seaplane. He does not have a Seaplane rating. Can he log the training
time he receives before he obtains his rating as PIC?

[Craig Prouse]

"Doug" wrote:

> A Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land takes training in a
> Seaplane. He does not have a Seaplane rating. Can he log the training
> time he receives before he obtains his rating as PIC?

Is this a trick question? (Is this related to IFR?)

You need to phrase your question more clearly. There are two ways to parse
that sentence, and the yes/no answer is different depending on how you
intend us to interpret the question.

The first possibility is as Bob already said, obviously yes, you can log the
instruction as dual received prior to obtaining the rating to act as PIC.

The second possibility, also obvious from 61.51(e), is no, you cannot log
the instruction time as PIC because you're not rated for the airplane.

[Doug]

Sorry to be unclear. The question is, can a private rated pilot single
engine land log pre-seaplane checkride training time as PIC? Yes he
logs it as dual instruction received, but can he log it as PIC by
virtue of manipulating the controls? 61.51

Perhaps a
Craig Prouse > wrote in message >...
> "Doug" wrote:
>
> > A Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land takes training in a
> > Seaplane. He does not have a Seaplane rating. Can he log the training
> > time he receives before he obtains his rating as PIC?
>
> Is this a trick question? (Is this related to IFR?)
>
> You need to phrase your question more clearly. There are two ways to parse
> that sentence, and the yes/no answer is different depending on how you
> intend us to interpret the question.
>
> The first possibility is as Bob already said, obviously yes, you can log the
> instruction as dual received prior to obtaining the rating to act as PIC.
>
> The second possibility, also obvious from 61.51(e), is no, you cannot log
> the instruction time as PIC because you're not rated for the airplane.

[Bob Gardner]

Sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he is rated (61.51e)...if his
ticket says "Single Engine - Land" he is not rated for seaplanes and cannot
log the time as PIC.

Bob Gardner

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> Sorry to be unclear. The question is, can a private rated pilot single
> engine land log pre-seaplane checkride training time as PIC? Yes he
> logs it as dual instruction received, but can he log it as PIC by
> virtue of manipulating the controls? 61.51
>
> Perhaps a
> Craig Prouse > wrote in message
>...
> > "Doug" wrote:
> >
> > > A Private Pilot Airplane Single Engine Land takes training in a
> > > Seaplane. He does not have a Seaplane rating. Can he log the training
> > > time he receives before he obtains his rating as PIC?
> >
> > Is this a trick question? (Is this related to IFR?)
> >
> > You need to phrase your question more clearly. There are two ways to
parse
> > that sentence, and the yes/no answer is different depending on how you
> > intend us to interpret the question.
> >
> > The first possibility is as Bob already said, obviously yes, you can log
the
> > instruction as dual received prior to obtaining the rating to act as
PIC.
> >
> > The second possibility, also obvious from 61.51(e), is no, you cannot
log
> > the instruction time as PIC because you're not rated for the airplane.

[Robert Moore]

"Bob Gardner" wrote

> Sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he is rated
> (61.51e)...if his ticket says "Single Engine - Land" he is not
> rated for seaplanes and cannot log the time as PIC.

Bob, what about any solo practice time that he is signed-off
to fly prior to the practical test? Seems to me that this
would be treated as any student pilot solo time and be logged
as PIC. I don't think that the original poster specified that
it was dual instruction as opposed to solo instruction.

Bob Moore

[Robert Moore]

Greg Esres wrote

> "Solo instruction" seems an oxymoron. The term doesn't appear
> in the FARs, nor in the FAQs.

Perhaps I should have said "solo flight training". :-)

Section 61.109: Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in
paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a private
pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class
rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at
least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and
10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in
§61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least --

Bob Moore

[Ron Natalie]

"Doug" > wrote in message om...
> Sorry to be unclear. The question is, can a private rated pilot single
> engine land log pre-seaplane checkride training time as PIC? Yes he
> logs it as dual instruction received, but can he log it as PIC by
> virtue of manipulating the controls?

No. He must be rated for the aircraft.
He can log PIC time any time he solos the seaplane.

[Ron Natalie]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:07:21 -0400, "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>
> >If you have any pilot certificate, you can log PIC time when solo.
>
> Yes but if you have a private certificate without a seaplane rating, can an
> instructor sign you off to solo the aircraft?

Yes. You can solo the seaplane before the rating.

> I seem to recall this being a contradiction in the rules, in that an
> instructor can sign off a student pilot to fly solo in an aircraft in which
> he is not rated; but was not able to do a solo authorization for a
> certificated pilot.

When the 61 rewrite came in, they seem to have forgotten about
people soloing when adding ratings. The "solo pic logging" clause
had been deleted from 61.51, etc... This has been fixed for a while
now. Howevewr, the provision for actually flying solo is here

61.31 (c) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage
of persons, or operating for compensation or hire. Unless a person holds a
category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that
applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an
aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire.
That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire.

61.31 (d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft
as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -
(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type
rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate
and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an
authorized instructor; or
(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category,
class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown,
and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to
provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

and as long as you are VFR (61.3 requires at least category and class ratints in addition
to the instrument rating).

[Ron Rosenfeld]

Thanks for that info.

--ron

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:19:12 -0400, "Ron Natalie" > wrote:

>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:07:21 -0400, "Ron Natalie" > wrote:
>>
>> >If you have any pilot certificate, you can log PIC time when solo.
>>
>> Yes but if you have a private certificate without a seaplane rating, can an
>> instructor sign you off to solo the aircraft?
>
>Yes. You can solo the seaplane before the rating.
>
>> I seem to recall this being a contradiction in the rules, in that an
>> instructor can sign off a student pilot to fly solo in an aircraft in which
>> he is not rated; but was not able to do a solo authorization for a
>> certificated pilot.
>
>When the 61 rewrite came in, they seem to have forgotten about
>people soloing when adding ratings. The "solo pic logging" clause
>had been deleted from 61.51, etc... This has been fixed for a while
>now. Howevewr, the provision for actually flying solo is here
>
>61.31 (c) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage
> of persons, or operating for compensation or hire. Unless a person holds a
> category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that
> applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an
> aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire.
> That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire.
>
>61.31 (d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft
> as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -
> (1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type
> rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;
> (2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate
> and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an
> authorized instructor; or
> (3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category,
> class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown,
> and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to
> provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.
>
>and as long as you are VFR (61.3 requires at least category and class ratints in addition
>to the instrument rating).
>

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Bob Gardner]

I don't want to extrapolate my own seaplane training to the whole wide
world, but no solo time is required and I didn't get any. Considering how
the insurance industry has come down on water operations generally, I wonder
if any float-plane school allows students to solo, and if any owner-student
has a policy permitting flight before the rating is earned.

Bob Gardner

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 6...
> "Bob Gardner" wrote
>
> > Sole manipulator of an aircraft for which he is rated
> > (61.51e)...if his ticket says "Single Engine - Land" he is not
> > rated for seaplanes and cannot log the time as PIC.
>
> Bob, what about any solo practice time that he is signed-off
> to fly prior to the practical test? Seems to me that this
> would be treated as any student pilot solo time and be logged
> as PIC. I don't think that the original poster specified that
> it was dual instruction as opposed to solo instruction.
>
> Bob Moore

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:14:34 GMT, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:

>I don't want to extrapolate my own seaplane training to the whole wide
>world, but no solo time is required and I didn't get any. Considering how
>the insurance industry has come down on water operations generally, I wonder
>if any float-plane school allows students to solo, and if any owner-student
>has a policy permitting flight before the rating is earned.

When I did my seaplane rating, I, too, did not solo prior to getting the
rating. The rating was in an aircraft which I owned, and there was no
insurance restriction. However, the a/c was a Lake Amphibian, and I had
been flying it on land prior to obtaining the sea rating. The policy,
IIRC, was the usual "named pilots" or defined experience. But there was no
restriction as to me, as a 'named pilot' being able to conduct water
operations.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)