Engine Shop Selection (was 'showing metal @ 1,100)

[Maule Driver]

Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:

1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...

2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.

Your thoughts and opinions are valued.

[Dave Butler]

Maule Driver wrote:

> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
> with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.

Hi MD,

Don't overlook Triad Engines just up the road at Burlington (BUY). They have
overhauled 2 engines for me, an O360 in a Cherokee and an IO-360 in the Mooney.
I've been very satisfied. Othman Rashed 800-334-6437. Stop by for a tour of
their facility, Othman will show you around.

I've also had an engine done by one of the big-name national overhaulers, and it
was a less than satisfactory experience. I won't do that again.

You can have your propeller done at the same time at H&H Propeller, in the same
building.

If you're not AOG, you can fly it up to BUY and have them do the R&R, too, and
probably save on shipping. Let me know if you need a ride home :).

Dave

[[email protected]]

Maule Driver > wrote:
: Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
: filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
: my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:

: 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
: overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
: 900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...

: 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
: with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.

Depending on who does the work, the word "overhaul" means different things to
different people. In a regulatory sense, it's quite specific (e.g. accessories must
be overhauled, etc). Realistically, if you're splitting the case halves anyway, you
might as well do the "difficult" part of the overhaul as part of your exploratory.
Send the steel parts off to have the magnafluxed, and replace all the bottom end parts
you need to. Think hard about the cam if it (unlikely) doesn't *need* to be
replaced.... probably want to anyway. In any event, a quickie bottom-end "overhaul"
isn't that expensive. I wouldn't do the jugs or accessories if not necessary...
they're easy to do on the plane later.

I'm sure other people have differing opinions... ranging from leave it alone
to getting a factory new.

-Cory



--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

Dave Butler > wrote:
: Don't overlook Triad Engines just up the road at Burlington (BUY). They have
: overhauled 2 engines for me, an O360 in a Cherokee and an IO-360 in the Mooney.
: I've been very satisfied. Othman Rashed 800-334-6437. Stop by for a tour of
: their facility, Othman will show you around.

I had an IRAN on my jugs done at Triad shortly after we bought our plane. Had
sticking valves and broken valve springs due to non-flying. I was happy with the
experience. Got a quickie tour while there after dropping our jugs off. Nice place
(and only an hour or so flight to get there from here)

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Michelle]

Maule Driver wrote:
> Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
> filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
> my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>
> 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
> overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
> 900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...
>
> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
> with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>
> Your thoughts and opinions are valued.
The last time I talked to Mattituck they could have cared less if they
got our business.

Columbia Aircraft in PA, sorry I can't remember exactly where they are
located. They seemed to be eager for our business and had all the right
toys.
Michelle

[GE]

Before you do anything, you might want to check to see if your engine falls
under the expanded AD for the Lycoming O-360 crankshaft recall.

With regards to shop selection, I can recommend against Magnum engines in
Ohio. They are absolute crooks.


"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
.. .
> Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the filter
> and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having my
> Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>
> 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an overhaul
> (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for 900 hours).
> Of course there may not be a choice...
>
> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work with
> Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>
> Your thoughts and opinions are valued.

[Maule Driver]

I did forget about them - I knew a little about them after spending some
time at BUY...

Re the big name shop - given my current assesment that getting the
problem fixed short of a full overhaul makes sense for me - I'm staying
away from the big name overhaul shops.

Thanks.

Dave Butler wrote:
> Maule Driver wrote:
>
>> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
>> with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>
>
> Hi MD,
>
> Don't overlook Triad Engines just up the road at Burlington (BUY). They
> have overhauled 2 engines for me, an O360 in a Cherokee and an IO-360 in
> the Mooney. I've been very satisfied. Othman Rashed 800-334-6437. Stop
> by for a tour of their facility, Othman will show you around.
>
> I've also had an engine done by one of the big-name national
> overhaulers, and it was a less than satisfactory experience. I won't do
> that again.
>
> You can have your propeller done at the same time at H&H Propeller, in
> the same building.
>
> If you're not AOG, you can fly it up to BUY and have them do the R&R,
> too, and probably save on shipping. Let me know if you need a ride home :).
>
> Dave

[Maule Driver]

That's interesting. I always hear about the top end overhaul which
makes sense for an engine with a lot of time and losing compression.
The bottom end checkup would probably make sense at this time. The
Magnaflux to check for cracks and doing whatever is required to fix those.

BTW, I've found my 5+ year collection of LPM to be invaluable in
understanding the terminology, procedures and practices surrounding
engine work.

wrote:
> Depending on who does the work, the word "overhaul" means different
things to
> different people. In a regulatory sense, it's quite specific (e.g. accessories must
> be overhauled, etc). Realistically, if you're splitting the case halves anyway, you
> might as well do the "difficult" part of the overhaul as part of your exploratory.
> Send the steel parts off to have the magnafluxed, and replace all the bottom end parts
> you need to. Think hard about the cam if it (unlikely) doesn't *need* to be
> replaced.... probably want to anyway. In any event, a quickie bottom-end "overhaul"
> isn't that expensive. I wouldn't do the jugs or accessories if not necessary...
> they're easy to do on the plane later.
>

>

[Otis Winslow]

Maule Driver wrote:
> Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
> filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
> my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>
> 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
> overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
> 900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...
>
> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
> with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>
> Your thoughts and opinions are valued.

I had a similar situation where my O360 (around 1000 hrs) started making
metal. I opted for a factory reman in the interest of minimal down time.
Took a couple weeks to get it to me and my mechanic to get it hung
on the plane.

[Maule Driver]

I think you are referring to the corrosion AD for o-360s with a CS prop?
That particular one doesn't apply to me since I have a fixed prop with
a solid crank.

Thanks

GE wrote:
> Before you do anything, you might want to check to see if your engine falls
> under the expanded AD for the Lycoming O-360 crankshaft recall.
>

>

[Jim Burns]

We've got one engine on the Aztec that has 1850 SMOH, but all cylinders are
less than 700 hours since overhaul. Our game plan (for now) is to do a
bottom end IRAN plus cam when it becomes necessary. Of course, this could
all change at any moment.
Jim

> wrote in message
...
> Maule Driver > wrote:
> : Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
> : filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
> : my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>
> : 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
> : overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
> : 900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...
>
> : 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
> : with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>
> Depending on who does the work, the word "overhaul" means different things
to
> different people. In a regulatory sense, it's quite specific (e.g.
accessories must
> be overhauled, etc). Realistically, if you're splitting the case halves
anyway, you
> might as well do the "difficult" part of the overhaul as part of your
exploratory.
> Send the steel parts off to have the magnafluxed, and replace all the
bottom end parts
> you need to. Think hard about the cam if it (unlikely) doesn't *need* to
be
> replaced.... probably want to anyway. In any event, a quickie bottom-end
"overhaul"
> isn't that expensive. I wouldn't do the jugs or accessories if not
necessary...
> they're easy to do on the plane later.
>
> I'm sure other people have differing opinions... ranging from leave it
alone
> to getting a factory new.
>
> -Cory
>
>
>
> --
>
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * Cory Papenfuss *
> * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
> * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[[email protected]]

Maule Driver > wrote:
: I think you are referring to the corrosion AD for o-360s with a CS prop?
: That particular one doesn't apply to me since I have a fixed prop with
: a solid crank.

I was going to mention that but figured you already knew. IIRC, one can treat
the hollow crank to have it terminate the AD. With a solid crank that one should be
fine. There is, of course, the sintered iron oil pump AD... and a rash the connecting
rod bolts from Superior IIRC.

Seriously though... if you've got the bottom end apart, you'd be silly not to
spend the extra bit to get the steel parts magnafluxed. That's about the only
additional thing you'd have to do aside from what's *required* after you split the
cases, but it's enough to call it a bottom overhaul. From the sounds of the metal,
you'll likely be buying a new cam.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Maule Driver]

Did you ever find out the source of the metal? Cam seems to be the
speculative consensus.

I'd love to do a reman but can't make financial sense out of it in my
situation.



Otis Winslow wrote:
> I had a similar situation where my O360 (around 1000 hrs) started making
> metal. I opted for a factory reman in the interest of minimal down time.
> Took a couple weeks to get it to me and my mechanic to get it hung
> on the plane.
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 14:19:55 GMT, Michelle
> wrote:

>Maule Driver wrote:
>> Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
>> filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
>> my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>>
>> 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'. That is, I could just go for an
>> overhaul (est $12,000 for 2,000 hours) or LSF (guesstimate $6,000k for
>> 900 hours). Of course there may not be a choice...
>>
>> 2) Shop selection. My mechanic is somewhat shop agnostic - they work
>> with Signature in Ohio and Mattituck.
>>
>> Your thoughts and opinions are valued.
>The last time I talked to Mattituck they could have cared less if they
>got our business.
>
>Columbia Aircraft in PA, sorry I can't remember exactly where they are
>located. They seemed to be eager for our business and had all the right
>toys.
>Michelle

And the last time I talked Mattituck, they were MORE expensive than a
Lycoming factory O/H.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:40:36 GMT, Maule Driver >
wrote:

>Did you ever find out the source of the metal? Cam seems to be the
>speculative consensus.
>
>I'd love to do a reman but can't make financial sense out of it in my
>situation.
>
>
>
>Otis Winslow wrote:
>> I had a similar situation where my O360 (around 1000 hrs) started making
>> metal. I opted for a factory reman in the interest of minimal down time.
>> Took a couple weeks to get it to me and my mechanic to get it hung
>> on the plane.
>>

When I looked into this in 2000, the only differences between a Lycoming
factory O/H vs reman were the price, logbook, and an extra year on the
warranty.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[nrp]

Assuming your cam and lifters have gone bad -

Maybe if your top ends have all been good including oil consumption,
you could go the barnyard repair approach & split the case, replace the
main & rod bearings (they are almost certainly going to be
contaminated), the cam and followers, and thoroughly flush the oil
galleries and crankshaft oil ports before reassembling.

Might it even be practical to leave the pistons in the jugs so that you
wouldn't have to deglaze and re-ring it? If the engine is equipped
with a full flow filter it is possible that even bearing replacement
might not be necessary, but if the parts are not that expensve I can't
imagine that to be practical.

There might be a requirement for $ rod $ bolt $ replacement on any
Lycoming di$a$$embly. If it isn't mandatory though it I wouldn't
replace them.

This assumes the debris hasn't chewed up your oil pump or caused any
pistons to score in the bores. No matter what you do, cleaning up the
debris is a very important part of whatever you end up doing.

This is not an A&P thoughts though.....

[CriticalMass]

Maule Driver wrote:
> Based on the appearance of metal after 1,100 hours (filings in the
> filter and doubling of FE content in 36 hour oil analysis), I'm having
> my Lycoming o-360 taken apart. Two major choices to make:
>
> 1) Overhaul or 'look, see, fix'.
> Your thoughts and opinions are valued.

When my IO-540 did that at about the same TSMOH, the fact that labor
costs to tear down and fix vs to O/H were the same impressed me. Only
thing that changes is parts cost.

At more than 50% time gone to TBO, I opted for OH.