Single-Engine Partnership vs. Used vs. Flying Clubs

[[email protected]]

Salutations All,

I've been reading on aircraft ownership lately, and had a few
questions.

In general, how do aircraft partnerships work? Do partnerships exist
for singles? Are they a good idea vs. purchasing a used aircraft
outright? What about flying clubs - do they typically offer good
multi-day rental rates or have aircraft available for scheduled use?

I'm trying to get my head around all this - I'm no where near joining a
partnership or purchasing an aircraft (gotta get my PP first), but I've
noticed some websites devoted to these topics and it's piqued my
interest. I'm looking for people who have first hand knowledge of these
topics.

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Bryan Porter

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> In general, how do aircraft partnerships work? Do partnerships exist
> for singles? Are they a good idea vs. purchasing a used aircraft
> outright? What about flying clubs - do they typically offer good
> multi-day rental rates or have aircraft available for scheduled use?

Simplistically, you can get a feel for it by understanding this:

1 = low 10= high

Operating costs (hourly and monthly)
==================
Owning: 10
Partnership: 7
Flying Club: 3


Aircraft Availability:
======================
Owning: 10
Partnership: 6
Flying Club: 3


Difficulty in reaching consensus in upgrading aircraft (avionics, interior,
etc):
=============================================
Owning: 2 (depending on wife)
Partnership: 6
Flying Club: 10


Politics:
=================
Owning: 1
Partnership: 5
Flying Club: 8

--
Peter

[[email protected]]

Before you think too hard about it, remember that there are as many ways that
partnerships work as there are partnerships.

: In general, how do aircraft partnerships work? Do partnerships exist
: for singles?
Quite common

Are they a good idea vs. purchasing a used aircraft
: outright?
Often it reduces the cost considerably. The more an airplane is flown the
happier all of its systems is. Non-flying is the biggest cause of expensive
maintenance requirements like permature engine overhauls. Single-owners rarely can
afford the time or fuel-costs of running an airplane as much as it would like.... at
least 100 hours/year, but preferrably a good bit more. Partners spread that out...

What about flying clubs - do they typically offer good
: multi-day rental rates or have aircraft available for scheduled use?

Depends on the club.

: I'm trying to get my head around all this - I'm no where near joining a
: partnership or purchasing an aircraft (gotta get my PP first), but I've
: noticed some websites devoted to these topics and it's piqued my
: interest. I'm looking for people who have first hand knowledge of these
: topics.

Although it's a big leap of faith, buying, partnering, or joining a club
*WHILE* working towards a PP is usually more cost-effective than renting and then
buying/joining. Pilots often find trainer-class planes limiting in usefulness (speed,
range, load carying capability, avionics, etc) so they often want more shortly after
earning the PP. Clubs can help in this upgrading. It's more commitment than an hour
or two of rental, but less than outright ownership.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter R. wrote:

> Aircraft Availability:
> ======================
> Owning: 10
> Partnership: 6
> Flying Club: 3
>

This isn't quite true, depending upon what you mean by "availability". One
of the major advantages of a multi-plane club (of any sort) is the ability
to keep flying even if a plane is "down".

I actually experienced this a week or so ago. For a silly reason, the plane
I was planning to take wasn't available. Another club plane *was*
available. A quick dialog with our scheduling system via my Treo
(schedulemaster.com, which is also available via phone), a walk a few steps
down the ramp, and off I went in "the other" airplane.

If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
flight.

- Andrew

[Steven Barnes]

I started training by renting. Shortly after the first rate hike, I joined a
local flying club to finish. I still belong to the club (172 & 182). About
1/4 way into my IFR training, I partnered with a couple other guys in the
club & we bought a Cherokee 180C.

We hardly ever have a schedule conflict, and if we do, the club planes are
usually available. I've debated staying in the club. But, our 180 is in the
shop right now for some engine work. It's nice to have access to the club
planes. The dues are probably less than what renters insurance is (guess, i
haven't researched that).

I kinda like flying different planes from time to time. The club gives me
that. 70% of my flying is in my partnership plane.

For someone starting out, I would suggest a flying club. You can avoid some
of the hassles of owning (maintaining/fixing) & focus on learning. Now, if
you plan to fly/train 3+ times a week, you'll need a club with several
planes or very understanding members while you book the heck out of the
thing. :-D

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Peter R. wrote:
>
> > Aircraft Availability:
> > ======================
> > Owning: 10
> > Partnership: 6
> > Flying Club: 3
> >
>
> This isn't quite true, depending upon what you mean by "availability".
One
> of the major advantages of a multi-plane club (of any sort) is the ability
> to keep flying even if a plane is "down".
>
> I actually experienced this a week or so ago. For a silly reason, the
plane
> I was planning to take wasn't available. Another club plane *was*
> available. A quick dialog with our scheduling system via my Treo
> (schedulemaster.com, which is also available via phone), a walk a few
steps
> down the ramp, and off I went in "the other" airplane.
>
> If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
> flight.
>
> - Andrew
>

[Peter R.]

Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
> flight.

But then again, if you were a single owner or partner you wound probably
not cause some of the incidents that have landed a few of the local flying
club's aircraft in the shop.

For example, a pilot in the club or a passenger didn't hold onto the door
one windy day and it sprung open with such a force that it ripped a few of
the screws from its hinges and bent the door. Two weeks down.

Another time a flying club pilot buried the nose of the club's C172 into
the runway during a single moment of inattention while landing on a clear,
VFR day. Several months of down time to repair the bent firewall and
damaged nosewheel, and perform all tasks related to a propstrike.

Or how about the time a new flying club pilot back-taxied down a single
strip and decided to turn around on the grass adjacent to the asphalt,
sinking the nosewheel into a gopher's hole and causing a prop strike. At
least one month down time. Ok, so maybe the gopher's hole could happen to
anyone but if it were your bird, you might think twice before leaving
perfectly wide asphalt for the unknown of the moderate rough.



--
Peter

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
>> If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
>> flight.
>
> But then again, if you were a single owner or partner you wound probably
> not cause some of the incidents that have landed a few of the local flying
> club's aircraft in the shop.
>
> For example, a pilot in the club or a passenger didn't hold onto the door
> one windy day and it sprung open with such a force that it ripped a few of
> the screws from its hinges and bent the door. Two weeks down.
>
> Another time a flying club pilot buried the nose of the club's C172 into
> the runway during a single moment of inattention while landing on a clear,
> VFR day. Several months of down time to repair the bent firewall and
> damaged nosewheel, and perform all tasks related to a propstrike.
>
> Or how about the time a new flying club pilot back-taxied down a single
> strip and decided to turn around on the grass adjacent to the asphalt,
> sinking the nosewheel into a gopher's hole and causing a prop strike. At
> least one month down time. Ok, so maybe the gopher's hole could happen to
> anyone but if it were your bird, you might think twice before leaving
> perfectly wide asphalt for the unknown of the moderate rough.
>

Rediculous...

The above "stupid pilot tricks" are just at do-able by a single owner and/or
one member of a partnership.

In fact, the thought that 38 other pilots might want to tear me a new one if
I do something that downs a plane makes me more cautious and not less.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> Rediculous...

But true, Jay. Those anecdotes were not a figment of my imagination. All
of those examples actually happened to the local flying club at my airport
and all within the last three years.

My A&P is also the club's A&P, so every time I see one of the club's
aircraft in the maintenance hangar, I ask about him it.

> The above "stupid pilot tricks" are just at do-able by a single owner
> and/or one member of a partnership.

Perhaps.

--
Peter

[Otis Winslow]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
> flight.
>
> - Andrew
>

Not really. As an owner I do a post flight inspection after each flight
and make sure any problems are taken care of right away. No one else
flies the airplane so you shouldn't have many surprises. Large tasks
such as annuals can be scheduled when you're not going anywhere for
a few days.

OW

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
>> Rediculous...
>
> But true, Jay. Those anecdotes were not a figment of my imagination. All
> of those examples actually happened to the local flying club at my airport
> and all within the last three years.
>
> My A&P is also the club's A&P, so every time I see one of the club's
> aircraft in the maintenance hangar, I ask about him it.
>
>> The above "stupid pilot tricks" are just at do-able by a single owner
>> and/or one member of a partnership.
>
> Perhaps.

And people treat club aircraft "slightly" better than the average person
treats a rental car.

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> > wrote:
>
>> In general, how do aircraft partnerships work? Do partnerships exist
>> for singles? Are they a good idea vs. purchasing a used aircraft
>> outright? What about flying clubs - do they typically offer good
>> multi-day rental rates or have aircraft available for scheduled use?
>
> Simplistically, you can get a feel for it by understanding this:
>
> 1 = low 10= high
>
> Operating costs (hourly and monthly)
> ==================
> Owning: 10
> Partnership: 7
> Flying Club: 3
>
>
> Aircraft Availability:
> ======================
> Owning: 10
> Partnership: 6
> Flying Club: 3
>
>


How many people operate their business via club aircraft?

Try covering an area 700 miles by 900 miles in your typical club aircraft!
:~) (I did it for our first two years and wore my wife and I ragged.)

[Peter R.]

Matt Barrow > wrote:

> And people treat club aircraft "slightly" better than the average person
> treats a rental car.

Obviously not pilots such as Jay (seriously, no sarcasim intended), but my
observation and experience supports yours.


--
Peter

[Andrew Gideon]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> And people treat club aircraft "slightly" better than the average person
> treats a rental car.

Details may matter. The club to which I belong (<http://flyingclub.org/>)
is more like a partnership than club. We've all equity in (that gets
returned when a new member replaces us), making us all part owners. MX is
paid by...us.

I know that some clubs are run more as rental shops, which I suppose could
encourage rough treatment. Still, that's disappointing in a way. I
wouldn't mistreat the rentals I used to fly because, if nothing else, I
flew them regularly. I didn't have an ownership stake, but I certainly had
a stake.

[Plus, for lease-backs I typically knew the owner...and he knew me <grin>.]

- Andrew

[xyzzy]

Peter R. wrote:
> Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>
> > If I were an owner or partner of a lone plane, I'd have had to cancel the
> > flight.
>
> But then again, if you were a single owner or partner you wound probably
> not cause some of the incidents that have landed a few of the local flying
> club's aircraft in the shop.
> [stupid club pilots tricks deleted]

I belong to a flying club with 3 virtually identical C172s for IFR
training and cross country flying, 3 virtually identical 152's for
primary training, and 2 Mooneys for advanced training and serious
cross-country flying. When our planes go into the shop it's seldom
because of stupid pilot tricks (though of course it has happened).
Usually it's avionics squawks, annuals, routine maint, or things just
breaking. Over the years I have experienced a vaccuum failure (luckily
in CAVU conditions) and an autopilot failure in club planes, neither of
which could be attributed to stupid pilot tricks. In both cases I
squawked it upon landing and flew other club planes until they were
fixed. My wallet didn't hurt at the cost, and I didn't stress over how
to schedule and pay for the repairs.

I would put stupid pilot tricks at less than 10% of the downtime of our
planes. In the remaining 90% of the cases, the problems would not have
been preventable by a single owner who never makes a mistake (heh), but
that single owner would still be out of luck, both finiancially and
schedule-wise, if it happened to his plane. In the club, you can
schedule another one ... if it's available. But if a plane is down,
the others will be scheduled so tightly that backup availability may be
more theoretical than actual. Our club's planes are pretty tightly
scheduled but they do work with people, for example, some local
training flights may get bumped if someone needs to take a checkride
and his scheduled plane is down, next priority is overnight trips which
may bump local flights if that happens, etc. Our manager is good at
working proactively to resolve these situations.

It's all a matter of a club's philosophy of availability vs. cost.
Tight availability means higher utilization and lower cost per hour for
members, and of course the reverse is also true.

Ideally one would own a plane and belong to a club for backup. Best of
both worlds, but not exactly economical :) Until I hit the lottery or
something like that, club is the way to go as far as I am concerned.

[Robert M. Gary]

I teach at a flying club and own my Mooney with a partner. The
difference with ownership is that you can often time maintenance items
so they do not interfere with planned trips. Although flying clubs say
they try to do this, it rarely works out that way. I can't think of a
single time I've had to cancel a trip in my Mooney due to mechanical
issues. However, I've had to cancel checkrides and cross countries with
students at the flying club for the same.
Also, no mater how much a flying club claims to have perfect
maintenance, a flying club plane just isn't maintained as well as an
owned plane. Its a mater of economics. It costs a damn **** load of
money to make the difference between ok and great maintenance. Members
of a flying club join because they think its cheaper than renting at an
FBO and expect it to be cheaper. Aircraft owners know that owning is
more expensive.
-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Bingo! Yes, I know that if there is a problem after a flight, I can
have it fixed before the next time I fly and that only my partner and I
will be flying it before a trip. I'm planning on flying down to Mexico
next month. I know leading up to my trip the condition of my plane and
that any maintenance items need to be done sooner in order to avoid
conflicting with my trip. I also know that the plane isn't going to be
used much between now and my trip. You just can't get that type of
reliability when you have dozens of people flying the plane. You just
can't be as sure that the plane will be ready to go when you show up
with your family to fly to Cabo.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

On 12-Jan-2006, wrote:

> In general, how do aircraft partnerships work? Do partnerships exist
> for singles? Are they a good idea vs. purchasing a used aircraft
> outright? What about flying clubs - do they typically offer good
> multi-day rental rates or have aircraft available for scheduled use?


From the tone of your question I suspect by "partnership" you may be
referring to the "fractional ownership" programs offered for sale of new
aircraft. These are popular for turbine airplanes, and are available for a
few popular singles as well. Probably works out pretty well if you really
want a new plane but can't make enough use by yourself to justify the very
high purchase and operating costs.

Clubs vary widely in terms of costs, available aircraft, aircraft-to-member
ratio, and minimum daily usage policies. The best bet is to try to get
contacts for the various clubs that operate in your area and check them out.

Co-ownership (the official term for partnership) of a used airplane is also
an option, and one that works well for vast numbers of pilots who like the
idea of ownership (or who feel overly constrained by the limitations of
clubs or just renting) but who don't fly enough hours to make sole ownership
economically practical. In my experience (co-ownership of three different
airplanes over 30 years) a good 2 - or 3 -way partnership with a total of
150-200 hours of use per year can reduce total per hour costs to the point
where they are below rental rates and competitive with club rates. At that
utilization, scheduling conflicts are very rare, particularly if you use a
good scheduling system.

--
-Elliott Drucker