who uses FSS?

[McGregor]

I get my pre-flight briefings from:
*) weathertap - RadarLab, area outlook, tafs, progs
*) ADDS - flightpath tool for AIRMETS & winds aloft along the route
*) FlightStar - to tell me how long it'll take, print nice-looking flight
plans, plan fuel stops, etc.

Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.

Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were still
using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can give anyone a
very precise route briefing.

So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident ("pilot
called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?

[Roy Smith]

"McGregor" > wrote:
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident ("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?

I am sure I'm going to get jumped on, but I just don't see FSS as having
a key role in flight planning. I'm like McGregor; I self-brief using
DUAT. I find this to be faster, more convenient, and more complete that
what I could get from FSS on the phone. To be fair, I should point out
that I'm on line pretty much all the time. If you have to boot up your
computer and dial up to get to DUAT, I can see how it might not be any
better than a voice briefing. I'm also pretty good at rdg mtrlogcl
gibrsh wth no vwls so I don't have any trouble understanding the
printout.

I use FSS only under rare situations. Every once in a while there's
something that I can't make sense of on DUAT (and the plain-language
translator isn't helping), so I'll call up and ask a specific question.
On (rare) occassion, I'll be near a phone but not near a computer on the
net.

On the other hand, I use FSS a lot in the air. On a long flight, with
weather that's anything but severe clear, I'll generally call up flight
watch as soon as I level out in cruise to get an update. On a really
long flight, I might do that several times during the course of the
flight.

I also use FSS for dictating flight plans to in the air. If I don't
have an IFR flight plan on file and I suspect I might need it further up
the road, I'll call up FSS and give it to them. I keep a flight plan
form laminated to my kneeboard so I can just reel off the information in
the right order to the FSS guy. NOTE: if you want to do this, you need
to use the discrete FSS frequencies. Flight watch is for weather only,
no flight plans.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

> "McGregor" > wrote:
> > So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident ("pilot
> > called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> > icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
> I am sure I'm going to get jumped on, but I just don't see FSS as having
> a key role in flight planning. I'm like McGregor; I self-brief using
> DUAT. I find this to be faster, more convenient, and more complete that
> what I could get from FSS on the phone. To be fair, I should point out
> that I'm on line pretty much all the time. If you have to boot up your
> computer and dial up to get to DUAT, I can see how it might not be any
> better than a voice briefing. I'm also pretty good at rdg mtrlogcl
> gibrsh wth no vwls so I don't have any trouble understanding the
> printout.
>
> I use FSS only under rare situations. Every once in a while there's
> something that I can't make sense of on DUAT (and the plain-language
> translator isn't helping), so I'll call up and ask a specific question.
> On (rare) occassion, I'll be near a phone but not near a computer on the
> net.
>
> On the other hand, I use FSS a lot in the air. On a long flight, with
> weather that's anything but severe clear, I'll generally call up flight
> watch as soon as I level out in cruise to get an update. On a really
> long flight, I might do that several times during the course of the
> flight.
>
> I also use FSS for dictating flight plans to in the air. If I don't
> have an IFR flight plan on file and I suspect I might need it further up
> the road, I'll call up FSS and give it to them. I keep a flight plan
> form laminated to my kneeboard so I can just reel off the information in
> the right order to the FSS guy. NOTE: if you want to do this, you need
> to use the discrete FSS frequencies. Flight watch is for weather only,
> no flight plans.

Before we had DUAT(S) and all these other extensive weather resources, FSS was
pretty much it for G/A. The airlines have always used their own weather
departments or at least dispatchers for weather.

Like you say, FSS has some good value en route, sort of the poor man's equivalent
of airline company frequencies through ARINC.

The one essential role, though of the FSS, is when it is the only RCO on a
non-towered, IFR airport (example, KBIH). Center often hands you off to the FSS
for IFR ATC relay purposes well before you begin the approach. Likewise, on IFR
departure, you're with the FSS for quite a time at some of these airports.

[jfee]

You dont' even need them to cya, as long as you get a briefing through Duats
(which is built-in to flitestar).

"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I get my pre-flight briefings from:
> *) weathertap - RadarLab, area outlook, tafs, progs
> *) ADDS - flightpath tool for AIRMETS & winds aloft along the route
> *) FlightStar - to tell me how long it'll take, print nice-looking flight
> plans, plan fuel stops, etc.
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
> generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>
> Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were still
> using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can give anyone
a
> very precise route briefing.
>
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
>
>

[Roy Smith]

wrote:
> The one essential role, though of the FSS, is when it is the only RCO
> on a non-towered, IFR airport (example, KBIH). Center often hands
> you off to the FSS for IFR ATC relay purposes well before you begin
> the approach. Likewise, on IFR departure, you're with the FSS for
> quite a time at some of these airports.

I never saw the point of these FSS RCOs. From a technology point of
view, once you've got the automated radio gear on the field, it's just
as easy to run a land-line circuit direct to ATC as it is to run it to
FSS.

[Michael 182]

I use them before every flight. I find a 5-7 minute phone call (including
filing IFR) faster than using the net. If there is significant weather
enroute I'll get on line to complete the picture. My only problem is the
hold time before I get to talk to a briefer.

Michael


"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
> generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>

[Robert Henry]

I thought Mitre was working to answer this very question....

If you want to fly into or out of the DC ADIZ, you have to talk to flight
service. DUATS CANNOT be used to file any flight plan (IFR/VFR) in or out
of the ADIZ.

Frankly, I like the discussion to validate what I think I know about the
weather, and then I ask for a complete list of TFRs and/or any new TFRs for
the route(s) of flight one last time.

"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...

> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

You haven't been into a modern automated FSS like the one on Boeing Field.
More weather graphics than you can shake a stick at. The only text-based
thing I have seen is the template for accepting flight plans filed by phone
or radio.

Bob Gardner

"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I get my pre-flight briefings from:
> *) weathertap - RadarLab, area outlook, tafs, progs
> *) ADDS - flightpath tool for AIRMETS & winds aloft along the route
> *) FlightStar - to tell me how long it'll take, print nice-looking flight
> plans, plan fuel stops, etc.
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
> generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>
> Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were still
> using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can give anyone
a
> very precise route briefing.
>
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
>
>

[Dan Thompson]

I agree with you, Michael. It's much faster to phone FSS compared to Duats.
I usually do it on my cell while driving to the airport, so zero time added.
I usually check Intellicast Nexrad on the computer before I call to get the
big picture.
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
. net...
> I use them before every flight. I find a 5-7 minute phone call (including
> filing IFR) faster than using the net. If there is significant weather
> enroute I'll get on line to complete the picture. My only problem is the
> hold time before I get to talk to a briefer.
>
> Michael
>
>
> "McGregor" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this
wildly
> > generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
> >
>
>

[Bob Noel]

In article . net>,
"McGregor" > wrote:

[snip]
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
> ("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?

I use the FSS for standard briefs and to file. I prefer dealing
with people. I usually familarize myself with the weather via
on-line sources, but I still get the standard brief. It doesn't
take long, especially using a cellphone. And getting the briefing
right after I've preflighted my aircraft means the information
is as current as possible.

--
Bob Noel

[Bob Noel]

In article <eFreb.28134$AH4.6479@lakeread06>, "Robert Henry"
> wrote:

> I thought Mitre was working to answer this very question....

Really? Do you have a CAASD POC for this?



>
> If you want to fly into or out of the DC ADIZ, you have to talk to flight
> service. DUATS CANNOT be used to file any flight plan (IFR/VFR) in or
> out
> of the ADIZ.
>
> Frankly, I like the discussion to validate what I think I know about the
> weather, and then I ask for a complete list of TFRs and/or any new TFRs
> for
> the route(s) of flight one last time.
>
> "McGregor" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>
> > So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
> ("pilot
> > called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into
> > known
> > icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
> >
> >
> >

--
Bob Noel

[Dave Butler]

Dan Thompson wrote:
> I agree with you, Michael. It's much faster to phone FSS compared to Duats.
> I usually do it on my cell while driving to the airport, so zero time added.
> I usually check Intellicast Nexrad on the computer before I call to get the
> big picture.

You must be better than I am at assimilating spoken data. I need pictures and
written text. It's hard enough trying to comprehend all that voice input when
I'm sitting down at a desk, let alone while driving.

Well, I guess it's no worse than trying to make sense of an airborne update
while flying, but I find that ineffective, too. At least in that case I already
have a background of understanding the general weather picture.

I also am immersed in a computer environment all day, so it's little to no extra
hassle to get an online briefing. There's no setup time. Phoning FSS, on the
other hand, I have to navigate voicemail-hell.

Dave

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Teacherjh]

I use FSS for briefings all the time. I also supplement with CIRRUS (DUATS)
maps.

One advantage the FSS has over me is that they have been looking at the weather
all day. They already know what to look for, what to leave out, what to
ignore. For me it would be the first or second time I've seen the weather, and
I'd have to actually look through reams of printout for every airport in the
area in case there was a surprise which could be significant. FSS has already
done this and won't read 150 almost identical weather reports from nearby
stations, but will read the few that matter.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[John T]

"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this
> wildly generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>
> Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were
> still using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can
> give anyone a very precise route briefing.

Coupla points here. First, all these briefers are (supposed to be, at
least) trained meteorologists. Second, FSS is (hopefully) getting real-time
updates from PIREPs to help fill in the weather picture. Third, the
Leesburg AFSS station, for one, definitely has full color radar/satellite
weather pictures available on everything from the national to the very local
level. As others said, the text-only interface is used to input flight
plans and to pull up TAFs, NOTAMs and winds aloft during my briefings.

> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
> ("pilot called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing
> into known icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?

Remember that FSS also helps coordinate SAR efforts and helps pilots in
distress. You've also alluded to their usefulness for Flight Watch.

Of course, my experience is almost certainly skewed due to the fact that I
actually fly out of Leesburg (JYO) and have the luxury of walking up to the
counter for a personal briefing. I would probably share a lot of the
frustrations of many other users if I had to use the phone every time I
wanted to talk to them.

Even with the personal service, though, I still use DUATS more often than
not to get a "briefing" before going to the airport. That usually saves me
some surprises during my FSS briefing.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
__________

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

> wrote:
> > The one essential role, though of the FSS, is when it is the only RCO
> > on a non-towered, IFR airport (example, KBIH). Center often hands
> > you off to the FSS for IFR ATC relay purposes well before you begin
> > the approach. Likewise, on IFR departure, you're with the FSS for
> > quite a time at some of these airports.
>
> I never saw the point of these FSS RCOs. From a technology point of
> view, once you've got the automated radio gear on the field, it's just
> as easy to run a land-line circuit direct to ATC as it is to run it to
> FSS.

The FSS can provide services for VFR flight plans and weather. In a remote
area where only the center were linked to the RCO the center controller
would end up with that burden. Plus, if radar coverage is nonexistant
until in the low flight levels, such as at KBIH, the relay works and frees
up the center controller working traffic from having to work the non-radar
arrivals and departures directly.

[Michael 182]

The only time I find ii difficult is when they describe a weather pattern,
like a front as being "30 SE of Tyler to 40 N of Lubbock to 20 W of
Midland...." I do a fair amount of flying in areas I am not familiar with
the waypoints, so this is kind of useless.

When they are done with all that I usually just ask is that in my route of
flight? "Yes."

All right, how should I change my flight plan to avoid the weather? Good
briefers have always responded with a new flight plan option, which I then
have them modify in my filed plan. The advantage over maps for me is that
they are forecasting the movement of the front as they offer the new plan.
In this case, since there is obviously significant weather involved, I'll
take the new plan to a computer and look at what I'm getting into.

Michael


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> Dan Thompson wrote:

> You must be better than I am at assimilating spoken data. I need pictures
and
> written text. It's hard enough trying to comprehend all that voice input
when
> I'm sitting down at a desk, let alone while driving.

[Bob Gardner]

FSS specialists are NOT trained meteorologists. They are trained in
interpreting the data that they are given by the NWS.

Bob Gardner

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "McGregor" > wrote in message
> link.net
> >
> > Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this
> > wildly generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
> >
> > Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were
> > still using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can
> > give anyone a very precise route briefing.
>
> Coupla points here. First, all these briefers are (supposed to be, at
> least) trained meteorologists. Second, FSS is (hopefully) getting
real-time
> updates from PIREPs to help fill in the weather picture. Third, the
> Leesburg AFSS station, for one, definitely has full color radar/satellite
> weather pictures available on everything from the national to the very
local
> level. As others said, the text-only interface is used to input flight
> plans and to pull up TAFs, NOTAMs and winds aloft during my briefings.
>
> > So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
> > ("pilot called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing
> > into known icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
> Remember that FSS also helps coordinate SAR efforts and helps pilots in
> distress. You've also alluded to their usefulness for Flight Watch.
>
> Of course, my experience is almost certainly skewed due to the fact that I
> actually fly out of Leesburg (JYO) and have the luxury of walking up to
the
> counter for a personal briefing. I would probably share a lot of the
> frustrations of many other users if I had to use the phone every time I
> wanted to talk to them.
>
> Even with the personal service, though, I still use DUATS more often than
> not to get a "briefing" before going to the airport. That usually saves
me
> some surprises during my FSS briefing.
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
> __________
>
>
>

[McGregor]

The last FSS I was in was in Illinois. We were x-country to Denver during
T-storm season and decided to go get a personal brief. The guys were really
friendly, but their equipment seemed dated. The briefers did have what
looked like an internet connection with Nexrad on a separate display above
their workspace... yet, his "standard brief" came straight off the mainframe
screen.

My wife (commercial, multi, instrument) asked about avoiding the storms
straddling our route and the guy started to recommend a routing that to my
eyes (glancing at the Nexrad image) looked like it would take us right
through the thick of it! While my wife was getting this guy's .02 on how to
get from here-to-there, another briefer gently grabbed my arm, pulled me
over and gave me his recommendation which was the more Northerly routing
that I'd have picked based on what I'd seen on Nexrad.

So, it's not always a good thing to have some one else, even an expert,
interpret data for you. One more reason I'd love to have a data link in the
plane. I can brief myself on long flights where you may not have your own
internet service.

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:IPteb.471963$Oz4.295381@rwcrnsc54...
> You haven't been into a modern automated FSS like the one on Boeing Field.
> More weather graphics than you can shake a stick at. The only text-based
> thing I have seen is the template for accepting flight plans filed by
phone
> or radio.
>
> Bob Gardner

[Kevin Chandler]

The flight service person has more experience in weather than I ever will.
Although I prefer to look at the graphics received over the net, the FSS
personal are a great suppliment. If the weather is at all questionable, my
last question to the FSS person is "If I get in trouble, what is the best
direction to head?". There knowledge is just another assest in my planning
and safety.


"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I get my pre-flight briefings from:
> *) weathertap - RadarLab, area outlook, tafs, progs
> *) ADDS - flightpath tool for AIRMETS & winds aloft along the route
> *) FlightStar - to tell me how long it'll take, print nice-looking flight
> plans, plan fuel stops, etc.
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
> generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>
> Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were still
> using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can give anyone
a
> very precise route briefing.
>
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Plus, if radar coverage is nonexistant
> until in the low flight levels, such as at KBIH, the relay works and frees
> up the center controller working traffic from having to work the non-radar
> arrivals and departures directly.
>

Frees up the controller? Clearances and instructions relayed through FSS
are an additional burden on the controller. He has to talk to FSS on the
phone while other aircraft are calling on the radio.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Plus, if radar coverage is nonexistant
> > until in the low flight levels, such as at KBIH, the relay works and frees
> > up the center controller working traffic from having to work the non-radar
> > arrivals and departures directly.
> >
>
> Frees up the controller? Clearances and instructions relayed through FSS
> are an additional burden on the controller. He has to talk to FSS on the
> phone while other aircraft are calling on the radio.

I'm sure that's true with a TRACON. But, doesn't the center have a data person
that works with the FSS?

In the case of KBIH, I recall someone in the Air Traffic Division at the WP
Region saying they didn't remote ZOA to the KBIH RCO because the center didn't
want that link.

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:CYCeb.648570$Ho3.134457@sccrnsc03...
> The only time I find ii difficult is when they describe a weather pattern,
> like a front as being "30 SE of Tyler to 40 N of Lubbock to 20 W of
> Midland...." I do a fair amount of flying in areas I am not familiar with
> the waypoints, so this is kind of useless.

These are not waypoints, but towns. Plot them on any map if your don't have
a sat or radar picture.

[Teacherjh]

>>
> The only time I find ii difficult is when they describe a weather pattern,
> like a front as being "30 SE of Tyler to 40 N of Lubbock to 20 W of
> Midland...." I do a fair amount of flying in areas I am not familiar with
> the waypoints, so this is kind of useless.

These are not waypoints, but towns. Plot them on any map if your don't have
a sat or radar picture.
<<

You sure? Towns and not VORs?

Yanno, I wish they'd have a standard set of points from which to figure these
things and a chart of them. Fly to an unfamiliar area and you spend half the
time trying to FIND Tyler or Lubbock on the map... if it's even listed.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Ron Natalie]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message ...

>
> Yanno, I wish they'd have a standard set of points from which to figure these
> things and a chart of them. Fly to an unfamiliar area and you spend half the
> time trying to FIND Tyler or Lubbock on the map... if it's even listed.
>
Actually, there are such maps, but they have the identifiers on them rather than the
spelled out town names (more useful when you're looking at the printed area forecast
than listening to one being dictated).

[Tom S.]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> > The only time I find ii difficult is when they describe a weather
pattern,
> > like a front as being "30 SE of Tyler to 40 N of Lubbock to 20 W of
> > Midland...." I do a fair amount of flying in areas I am not familiar
with
> > the waypoints, so this is kind of useless.
>
> These are not waypoints, but towns. Plot them on any map if your don't
have
> a sat or radar picture.
> <<
>
> You sure? Towns and not VORs?

Yes, I'm sure. The NWS data is pinpointed by towns and other such landmarks.

>
> Yanno, I wish they'd have a standard set of points from which to figure
these
> things and a chart of them. Fly to an unfamiliar area and you spend half
the
> time trying to FIND Tyler or Lubbock on the map... if it's even listed.

If you're that bad at reading a map, especially a map for the area you're
flying in, I dare say you should be grounded.

[Tom S.]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > Yanno, I wish they'd have a standard set of points from which to figure
these
> > things and a chart of them. Fly to an unfamiliar area and you spend
half the
> > time trying to FIND Tyler or Lubbock on the map... if it's even listed.
> >
> Actually, there are such maps, but they have the identifiers on them
rather than the
> spelled out town names (more useful when you're looking at the printed
area forecast
> than listening to one being dictated).

There are also maps that have the weather picture superimposed, but if all
you have is text, it's good to make a map that you can markup and carry.

[Michael 182]

You're missing the point. Of course we can all read a map. The point is to
get the appropriate info *and* save time in briefings, not extend it by
proving our map reading abilities.

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> If you're that bad at reading a map, especially a map for the area you're
> flying in, I dare say you should be grounded.
>
>
>

[Roger Tracy]

I look at ADDS and WeatherTap. Then I get a DUATS briefing
and print it out. That takes care of the legal requirement. And DUATS is a
good reference. If I need to file (IFR or VFR) I file it on DUATS. Other
than a bit after 9/11 while things were in turmoil .. I seldome talk to FSS.


"McGregor" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I get my pre-flight briefings from:
> *) weathertap - RadarLab, area outlook, tafs, progs
> *) ADDS - flightpath tool for AIRMETS & winds aloft along the route
> *) FlightStar - to tell me how long it'll take, print nice-looking flight
> plans, plan fuel stops, etc.
>
> Then I call flight service and listen to the guy/girl give me this wildly
> generalized briefing that usually doesn't tell me very much.
>
> Last time I was in a flight service station (2000 I think) they were still
> using IBM CRTs with textual info, so I don't know how they can give anyone
a
> very precise route briefing.
>
> So... is FSS just there to a) cover your ass in case of an incident
("pilot
> called FSS and got a full weather briefing prior to departing into known
> icing/TFR/hurricane etc.") b) accept flight plans?
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Tom S." > wrote in message ...

> > Actually, there are such maps, but they have the identifiers on them
> rather than the
> > spelled out town names (more useful when you're looking at the printed
> area forecast
> > than listening to one being dictated).
>
> There are also maps that have the weather picture superimposed, but if all
> you have is text, it's good to make a map that you can markup and carry.
>
I'm talking about a blank map that you can doodle on while reading/listening
to the forecast. Looks like a map of the US with maybe 100 labeled dots on it for
each weather reporting station.
http://aviationweather.noaa.gov/static/info/advsry/

The have the chart in a variety of formats and also a list of the city/identifier
mappings.

[Ron Natalie]

"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message ...
> I look at ADDS and WeatherTap. Then I get a DUATS briefing
> and print it out. That takes care of the legal requirement. And DUATS is a
> good reference. If I need to file (IFR or VFR) I file it on DUATS. Other
> than a bit after 9/11 while things were in turmoil .. I seldome talk to FSS.
>
It's still in turmoil. You're well advised to continue to overburden the system
by calling up to see if there are any new TFR's frequently to cover your ass.

[Robert Henry]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> > I look at ADDS and WeatherTap. Then I get a DUATS briefing
> > and print it out. That takes care of the legal requirement. And DUATS is
a
> > good reference. If I need to file (IFR or VFR) I file it on DUATS. Other
> > than a bit after 9/11 while things were in turmoil .. I seldome talk to
FSS.
> >
> It's still in turmoil. You're well advised to continue to overburden the
system
> by calling up to see if there are any new TFR's frequently to cover your
ass.
>
>

Concur. I also prefer not having to slog through 25 pages of TFRs looking
for changes.

Also, it costs about one hour of Avgas (single engine, 10gph) to have an
AOPA panel attorney for a year should you have to "phone a friend." Not an
ad, just my perspective. IIRC, the magic words when reaching the FSS
specialist are "standard briefing".

[Robert Henry]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article <eFreb.28134$AH4.6479@lakeread06>, "Robert Henry"
> > wrote:
>
> > I thought Mitre was working to answer this very question....
>
> Really? Do you have a CAASD POC for this?
>
>

Nope. Looks like the study just ended in August, though.

http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-3-055x.html

[Teacherjh]

>>
Looks like a map of the US with maybe 100 labeled dots on it for
each weather reporting station.
<<

Well, that would be fine if they actually used the reporting stations as their
landmarks. Do they? I'm not sure they do.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Craig Prouse]

Dave Butler wrote:

> I also am immersed in a computer environment all day,
> so it's little to no extra hassle to get an online briefing.

Yeah, me too. I go nuts with the online weather, computer flight planning,
and DUAT filing. I've got all this stuff set up on computers both at home
and at work, including a laptop that I often take with me if I'm so
inclined.

But that only works on the outbound leg or places along the way where I am
relatively well-connected. I'm hardly a bush pilot, but that just isn't all
that often. FSS has been my best source of information at places as urban
as El Monte CA (late night departure), Laughlin NV (lousy hotel phone
system), and Hillsboro OR (too many students ahead of me in line for DUAT).

In cases like that, which I dare say represent well over half of my flights,
I am more than happy to plan my flight on a pad of paper, phone it in to
FSS, and go by their briefing. The main thing I miss is the chance to look
at a radar loop.

A lot of my flying is overnighters and multi-day trips, so while I enjoy
having home field advantage and throwing several thousands of dollars of
technology at the problem, it just isn't always an option. Sometimes flight
planning is more like backpacking than hooking up the RV to cable TV.


> There's no setup time. Phoning FSS, on the
> other hand, I have to navigate voicemail-hell.

"Press ONE to speak to a specialist"?

The least convenient thing about calling FSS is when you have to look up the
discrete 866 number (in the A/FD) that actually connects you to your local
FSS rather than the closest FSS to your cellular phone's area code and
exchange. If you want to file a flight plan out of Tucson, it doesn't do
any good to be talking to Oakland AFSS.

[Chip Jones]

> wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Plus, if radar coverage is nonexistant
> > > until in the low flight levels, such as at KBIH, the relay works and
frees
> > > up the center controller working traffic from having to work the
non-radar
> > > arrivals and departures directly.
> > >
> >
> > Frees up the controller? Clearances and instructions relayed through
FSS
> > are an additional burden on the controller. He has to talk to FSS on
the
> > phone while other aircraft are calling on the radio.
>
> I'm sure that's true with a TRACON. But, doesn't the center have a data
person
> that works with the FSS?

Nope. The "Data" person, aka a "D-side", is almost always one of those
things a busy Center controller wishes he had. The Center controller is
usually working the radio, the land line, pulling his own strips and
interfacing with FSS all by himself.

>
> In the case of KBIH, I recall someone in the Air Traffic Division at the
WP
> Region saying they didn't remote ZOA to the KBIH RCO because the center
didn't
> want that link.
>

LOL, I'll betcha the ZOA controllers weren't even consulted... Under Maid
Marion's FAA, that would be par for the course...


Chip, ZTL

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
>
> Perhaps I misunderstood the local head of training when he gave me a tour
a
> few years ago.
>

Sounds like you did. A degree in meteorology is not required of FSS weather
briefers.

[John T]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. net
>
> FSS specialists are NOT trained meteorologists. They are trained in
> interpreting the data that they are given by the NWS.

Perhaps I misunderstood the local head of training when he gave me a tour a
few years ago.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/tknoFlyer
_______________

[John R. Copeland]

Years ago, FSS publicized they had a way of connecting callers over to a
meteorologist, upon request. Does that still exist? I doubt it.
I don't recall any time in the past fifty years that briefers were =
required
to be meteorologists.

On rare occasions, I've encountered briefers who had been meteorologists
in a former life, usually during military service. But when employed as
FSS briefers, their job is to disburse weather data, not interpret it.

In the old days, we pilots could walk into a weather station to get
aviation weather from an actual meteorologist.
That must be the reason they taught us the station model in ground =
school.
---JRC---

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message =
link.net...
>=20
> "John T" > wrote in message
> ws.com...
> >
> > Perhaps I misunderstood the local head of training when he gave me a =
tour
> a
> > few years ago.
> >
>=20
> Sounds like you did. A degree in meteorology is not required of FSS =
weather
> briefers.
>=20
>

[Dan Thompson]

Thinking back, I recall it being done all different ways. The classic "40
miles NNE of Dipstick VOR, etc." Sometimes "eastern Kentucky and southern
Ohio" Sometimes "the panhandle of Florida". The latter are more useful if
the hearer is unfamiliar.
"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> Looks like a map of the US with maybe 100 labeled dots on it for
> each weather reporting station.
> <<
>
> Well, that would be fine if they actually used the reporting stations as
their
> landmarks. Do they? I'm not sure they do.
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Dan Thompson]

One thing I haven't seen written up too much yet is that when GWB starts up
his reelection campaign, there will be a moving 30 mile radius, up to FL180,
TFR moving around the country with up to 5-6 different stops a day.

If they plan on hammering every one who blunders into these, the FAA
enforcement division will have a 10 year backlog and the F16s will run out
of flares.
"Robert Henry" > wrote in message
news:_HIeb.30502$AH4.29102@lakeread06...
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > I look at ADDS and WeatherTap. Then I get a DUATS briefing
> > > and print it out. That takes care of the legal requirement. And DUATS
is
> a
> > > good reference. If I need to file (IFR or VFR) I file it on DUATS.
Other
> > > than a bit after 9/11 while things were in turmoil .. I seldome talk
to
> FSS.
> > >
> > It's still in turmoil. You're well advised to continue to overburden
the
> system
> > by calling up to see if there are any new TFR's frequently to cover your
> ass.
> >
> >
>
> Concur. I also prefer not having to slog through 25 pages of TFRs looking
> for changes.
>
> Also, it costs about one hour of Avgas (single engine, 10gph) to have an
> AOPA panel attorney for a year should you have to "phone a friend." Not an
> ad, just my perspective. IIRC, the magic words when reaching the FSS
> specialist are "standard briefing".
>
>

[[email protected]]

jfee wrote:

>
>You dont' even need them to cya, as long as you get a briefing through Duats
>(which is built-in to flitestar).
>

Can you get reasonable TFR data from Flightstar? Regular duats is completely worthless for TFRs in my opinion.

I agree with the folks that supplement their computer briefings with FSS. That seems like the smart way to go and that's what I do for any flight out of the local area. And unless you carry a laptop everywhere, FSS may be your only option when away from home.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Teacherjh) wrote:

> Looks like a map of the US with maybe 100 labeled dots on it for
> each weather reporting station.
> <<
>
> Well, that would be fine if they actually used the reporting stations as their
> landmarks. Do they? I'm not sure they do.

Yes they do.

[Roy Smith]

Craig Prouse > wrote:
>> There's no setup time. Phoning FSS, on the
>> other hand, I have to navigate voicemail-hell.
>
> "Press ONE to speak to a specialist"?

One of the problems is that not every FSS has the same phone system.
Depending on where you get connected, you may have to press ONE, or STAR
ONE, or who knows what else to get connected to a human being.

> The least convenient thing about calling FSS is when you have to look up the
> discrete 866 number (in the A/FD) that actually connects you to your local
> FSS rather than the closest FSS to your cellular phone's area code and
> exchange. If you want to file a flight plan out of Tucson, it doesn't do
> any good to be talking to Oakland AFSS.

You would think by now the FAA would have discovered this wonderthing
thing called a network. You know, that wonderful thing Al Gore invented
:-) For $19/month and a junky PC, anybody can sit in their own living
room and exchange email, netnews, IRC, web, etc with friends around the
world, but the FAA hasn't yet figured out how to get a flight plan from
Oakland to Tucson without manual intervention.

[Robert Henry]

"Dan Thompson" > wrote in message
...
> One thing I haven't seen written up too much yet is that when GWB starts
up
> his reelection campaign, there will be a moving 30 mile radius, up to
FL180,
> TFR moving around the country with up to 5-6 different stops a day.
>
> If they plan on hammering every one who blunders into these, the FAA
> enforcement division will have a 10 year backlog and the F16s will run out
> of flares.
>

You DO know the intercept procedure in *IMC* should you go lost comms and
blunder into one of those "oh-let's-stop-here-and-shake-some-hands-PTFRs."

Reminds me of KAL007. It's only a matter of time.

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

[Dave Butler]

Craig Prouse wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>
>>I also am immersed in a computer environment all day,
>>so it's little to no extra hassle to get an online briefing.
>
>
> Yeah, me too. I go nuts with the online weather, computer flight planning,
> and DUAT filing. I've got all this stuff set up on computers both at home
> and at work, including a laptop that I often take with me if I'm so
> inclined.
>
> But that only works on the outbound leg or places along the way where I am
> relatively well-connected.

Good point. I carry a laptop with linux loaded with all the access phone numbers
for my ISP, but still it's usually less hassle to just make the phone call from
the away-from-home FBO.

Dave

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Ron Natalie]

"Robert Henry" > wrote in message news:_HIeb.30502$AH4.29102@lakeread06...

> Concur. I also prefer not having to slog through 25 pages of TFRs looking
> for changes.

We have been told we can not rely on sources other than FSS.

>
> Also, it costs about one hour of Avgas (single engine, 10gph) to have an
> AOPA panel attorney for a year should you have to "phone a friend." Not an
> ad, just my perspective. IIRC, the magic words when reaching the FSS
> specialist are "standard briefing".
>

Phoning a friend won't get you out of a certain certificate violation if you bust
a TFR or other special "security" airspace.

[Ron Natalie]

"Robert Henry" > wrote in message news:LNIeb.30515$AH4.9125@lakeread06...
>
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <eFreb.28134$AH4.6479@lakeread06>, "Robert Henry"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > I thought Mitre was working to answer this very question....
> >
> > Really? Do you have a CAASD POC for this?
> >
> >
>
> Nope. Looks like the study just ended in August, though.
>
> http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-3-055x.html
>
The survey was, in my opinion, a peice of crap. It was extremely slanted
to elicit the opinion that the FSS ability to filter and interpret information was
an important service to pilots. Bullcrap. The FSS is the most common way
to NOT get NOTAMS. Unfortuantely, the NOTAM system is busted, and to
be safe I got to do the belt and suspenders: FSS and computer based search.

[Tom S.]

"Dan Thompson" > wrote in message
m...
> Thinking back, I recall it being done all different ways. The classic "40
> miles NNE of Dipstick VOR, etc."

That might be used by a FSS, during a briefing, but never would be in the
original NWS report.

Which might be appropriate to a LOCAL condition...only.

> Sometimes "eastern Kentucky and southern
> Ohio" Sometimes "the panhandle of Florida". The latter are more useful
if
> the hearer is unfamiliar.

When they are relaying wide-spread weather conditions, such as a front (the
original context) they will use more common and general landmarks, such as
cities and towns (usually major ones).

Tom

[Tom S.]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> (Teacherjh) wrote:
>
> > Looks like a map of the US with maybe 100 labeled dots on it for
> > each weather reporting station.
> > <<
> >
> > Well, that would be fine if they actually used the reporting stations as
their
> > landmarks. Do they? I'm not sure they do.
>
> Yes they do.

So when they say "...a front moving over the Front Range of the Rockies,
extending from Cheyenne to Colorado Springs...", what reporting station(s)
are they referring to?

Tom

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:JEHeb.655738$uu5.107349@sccrnsc04...
> You're missing the point. Of course we can all read a map. The point is to
> get the appropriate info *and* save time in briefings, not extend it by
> proving our map reading abilities.
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > If you're that bad at reading a map, especially a map for the area
you're
> > flying in, I dare say you should be grounded.

And the "appropriate info" concerning weather (especially wide spread
conditions) is graphically positioned...how? If you're trying to bypass a
front, how far would you have to go if you don't know the area you're
in/transiting? How would you know how to proceed?

[JerryK]

I use FSS virtually every flight. I have them check all of the TFRs and
NOTAMs for me, and they provide a second source of weather information and
most importantly interpretation. They also can tell me about older PIREPS.

I still use FliteStar to print the weather, but in each telephone briefing I
almost always have a couple of questions that I can't answer from the DUATs
output.

[Michael 182]

A month or so ago I was flying from Austin, TX to Hunstville, AL. The
briefer described a big weather system using the town names, or waypoints,
or whatever they are. I asked is it sitting over East Texas and Louisiana.
Yes. I asked how far north I had to go to avoid it. He gave me a waypoint to
head for, north, and then a turn east. Changed the original flight plan,
glanced at the weather map when I got to the FBO, making sure the new route
looked good and headed out on an uneventful flight. I still don't know where
4 of the 5 waypoints of the original weather description are. Not an issue.

Michael


"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:JEHeb.655738$uu5.107349@sccrnsc04...
> > You're missing the point. Of course we can all read a map. The point is
to
> > get the appropriate info *and* save time in briefings, not extend it by
> > proving our map reading abilities.
> >
> > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > If you're that bad at reading a map, especially a map for the area
> you're
> > > flying in, I dare say you should be grounded.
>
> And the "appropriate info" concerning weather (especially wide spread
> conditions) is graphically positioned...how? If you're trying to bypass a
> front, how far would you have to go if you don't know the area you're
> in/transiting? How would you know how to proceed?
>
>
>
>
>

[Tom S.]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:doXeb.482176$cF.167798@rwcrnsc53...
> A month or so ago I was flying from Austin, TX to Hunstville, AL. The
> briefer described a big weather system using the town names, or waypoints,
> or whatever they are. I asked is it sitting over East Texas and Louisiana.
> Yes. I asked how far north I had to go to avoid it. He gave me a waypoint
to
> head for, north, and then a turn east. Changed the original flight plan,
> glanced at the weather map when I got to the FBO, making sure the new
route
> looked good and headed out on an uneventful flight. I still don't know
where
> 4 of the 5 waypoints of the original weather description are. Not an
issue.
>
> Michael

Geography challenged? :~)

[Roy Smith]

Tom S. > wrote:
> So when they say "...a front moving over the Front Range of the Rockies,
> extending from Cheyenne to Colorado Springs...", what reporting station(s)
> are they referring to?

Cheyenne is on the list of reference points, but Colorado Springs
isn't. Is that an actual quote from an area forcast?

Certainly, in an area forcast, they'll refer to major geographical
featuers such as quadrants of states, large mountain chains, or oceans
to give you a general idea of the area. But, I've never seen a
specific location mentioned to define the location of a front or the
corners of a airmet/sigmet area which wasn't on the official list.

Here's the current area forecast for Boston Center:

SYNOPSIS...LOW PRES OVR NRN NY WILL APCH NRN ME THRU 18Z. CDFNT
ALG PLB-SAX-ORF LN WILL CONT EWD OVR ERN ME THRU CNTRL PTN CSTL
WTRS THRU 15Z. BTR

I translate that as:

Low pressure over northern New York State will approach norther Maine
through 18Z. Coldfront along Plattsburgh-Sparta-Norfolk line will
continue eastward over eastern Maine through central portion of
coastal waters through 15Z. BTR are the initials of the forecaster.

The specific locations mentioned (PLB, SAX, ORF) are all on the
approved list. The other locations are all vague things like "coastal
waters" and states. BTW, the great lakes are all treated like
pseudo-states (LO = Lake Ontario, LE = Lake Erie, etc).

[Andrew Gideon]

wrote:

> jfee wrote:
>
>>
>>You dont' even need them to cya, as long as you get a briefing through
>>Duats (which is built-in to flitestar).
>>
>
> Can you get reasonable TFR data from Flightstar? Regular duats is
> completely worthless for TFRs in my opinion.

I was speaking to Millville today, and was given a TFR for some sporting
event. The briefer had the exact time of the TFR's start. I expressed
pleased surprise that she was now being given that information. Alas: the
briefers do it themselves, or get the times from pilots that call.

Still, that's something that doesn't happen with DUATS.

> I agree with the folks that supplement their computer briefings with FSS.

That's what I do. It's just one extra person looking at the weather, which
costs nothing and might turn out to be very useful some day.

Besides: they're nice people, and speaking to an additional nice person in a
day is no bad thing.

- Andrew

[Roger Tracy]

Well .. I hope my butt is covered. I had a FSS guy tell me at a seminar
that DUATS has what they have. And the published ones are at:
http://www1.faa.gov/NTAP/
So far it's worked. A call to FSS enroute will check the area ahead. And
Center
is a big help. I can plug my laptop into my cellphone at stops and update
the info. If the weather
is complex then a call is certainly in order prior to flight.

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> > I look at ADDS and WeatherTap. Then I get a DUATS briefing
> > and print it out. That takes care of the legal requirement. And DUATS is
a
> > good reference. If I need to file (IFR or VFR) I file it on DUATS. Other
> > than a bit after 9/11 while things were in turmoil .. I seldome talk to
FSS.
> >
> It's still in turmoil. You're well advised to continue to overburden the
system
> by calling up to see if there are any new TFR's frequently to cover your
ass.
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message ...
> Well .. I hope my butt is covered. I had a FSS guy tell me at a seminar
> that DUATS has what they have.

Well he's incorrect.

> And the published ones are at:
> http://www1.faa.gov/NTAP/

The Published ones aren't so much of a problem.

[Teacherjh]

>> The FSS is the most common way to NOT get NOTAMS.

Which is the point.

Sometimes I don't want to get NOTAMS. I want the ones pertinent to my flight,
and the ones that might end up pertinent to my flight. But I don't want the
three hundred seventy two others.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Roy Smith]

(Teacherjh) wrote:
> Sometimes I don't want to get NOTAMS. I want the ones pertinent to my flight,
> and the ones that might end up pertinent to my flight. But I don't want the
> three hundred seventy two others.

The most annoying thing about notams on duat is that there's no way
(that I've figured out) to filter them by subject. For a VFR flight, I
could care less about airways and approaches, which make up the bulk of
the FDC notams. All I really want to see of the FDC stuff is TFRs and
the like.

In fact, even for an IFR flight I pretty much don't care about airways.
I'm going to get the clearance I get. I figure it's more ATC's problem
whether they can clear me along an airway than something I need to worry
about. If I was flying someplace where I expected to be out of radar
contact for a significant amount of time, I would probably be more
concerned about airways.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> I'm sure that's true with a TRACON. But, doesn't the center have a data
> person that works with the FSS?
>

The Center has a D position, whether there's a person there or not is
another matter.


>
> In the case of KBIH, I recall someone in the Air Traffic Division at the
> WP Region saying they didn't remote ZOA to the KBIH RCO because
> the center didn't want that link.
>

The Center turned down direct pilot/controller communications in favor of a
relay through FSS? I find that rather hard to believe.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

>One of the problems is that not every FSS has the same phone system.
>Depending on where you get connected, you may have to press ONE, or STAR
>ONE, or who knows what else to get connected to a human being.

Is that still the case? I thought they all have the same system since 2000. The STAR bit was incompatible with some cell phone providers.

[Roger Tracy]

Interesting. Soooo .. DUATS .. although it's an approved source for
preflight briefing doesn't contain all applicable information? I've had
specific instances where I printed out a preflight briefing from DUATS
and compared notes with a CFI who'd called FSS and I had stuff he
wasn't told. Are you refering to TFRs .. or all NOTAMS?



"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> > Well .. I hope my butt is covered. I had a FSS guy tell me at a seminar
> > that DUATS has what they have.
>
> Well he's incorrect.
>
> > And the published ones are at:
> > http://www1.faa.gov/NTAP/
>
> The Published ones aren't so much of a problem.
>
>

[Roy Smith]

In article >, wrote:

> Is that still the case? I thought they all have the same system since 2000.
> The STAR bit was incompatible with some cell phone providers.

Hmmm. I call FSS so infrequently, I suppose it's possible my
information on that score could be 3 years out of date!

[Chip Jones]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I'm sure that's true with a TRACON. But, doesn't the center have a data
> > person that works with the FSS?
> >
>
> The Center has a D position, whether there's a person there or not is
> another matter.

LOL, OK, that's true enough. But Center doesn't necessarily have a "data
person who works with the FSS" plugged in at any given ARTCC sector, and
these days probably doesn't.

Chip, ZTL

[James M. Knox]

I very seldom use FSS these days, preferring DUATS. But every now and
then I either find myself without computer access, or needing something
that DUATS is not providing. [Last week I found myself looking at a
DUATS NOTAM that referenced an FDC NOTAM that it would *NOT* retrieve.
Called FSS, and it took them another 10 minutes to track it down...
never did really fidn the text. Sheesh... no wonder the NOTAM system is
a mess.]

Anyway, normally I get good results from FSS. But this weekend...

Landed IFR at a little uncontrolled airport. Standing out in the
pouring rain (so I could get a signal) I called FSS to close my flight
plan. Got through to a briefer and told her I needed to close my flight
plan. She took the information and said she would take care of it, just
a minute.

Five minutes later a different briefer answered the phone. Said the
first one had gone off duty (while I was on hold) and how could they
help. I said I needed to close my flight plan at 4F2 and get a void-
time clearance for another. After about another 5 minutes he assured me
that there WAS no airport at that designation, nor that city.

I tried to explain that there was a LOT of asphalt there if there was no
airport. <G> No luck. So I tried to explain that it was near GGG
(Longview TX), a significant airport that is an alternate for emergency
shuttle landings. He then informed me that there was NO airport by that
name either, nor any Longview Texas airport.

Now admittedly, this was the FSS for Midland, but next he was probably
going to tell me that DFW doesn't exist.

I finally gave up (and hung up), called an old DFW center number that I
remembered, who nicely patched me through to someone who recognized that
Texas had not recently suceeded from the union, and closed one flight
plan (now 30 minutes after I landed) and cleared me to depart on the
next.

Never had an FSS briefer as clueless as yesterday. Hope I don't have
another. I *hope* that either he or his equipment was just having a bad
day.


-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Craig Prouse]

"James M. Knox" wrote:

> Now admittedly, this was the FSS for Midland, but next he was probably
> going to tell me that DFW doesn't exist.

The 4F2 airport is in the area served by Ft. Worth FSS. I assume that you
dialed 1-800-WX-BRIEF on your cell phone and were connected to San Angelo
FSS because that's close to where your cell phone is registered.

That doesn't work very well. If you use a cell phone and you're outside of
your home area, you need the A/FD for your current location to look up the
discrete 866 number to ensure that you connect to the right FSS. The
generic WX-BRIEF number is only good from a landline and sometimes not then.
I've been erroneously connected the Hawthorne FSS from a pay phone at an
airport served by Riverside FSS.

[Chip Jones]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
[snipped]

> If I was flying someplace where I expected to be out of radar
> contact for a significant amount of time, I would probably be more
> concerned about airways.

Yep. If you were going to be IFR out of radar contact in most airspace,
you'd have no choice *but* to be concerned with airways, because you would
be flying them exclusively.

Chip,ZTL

[Mick Ruthven]

What difference should it make what FSS you get on the cell phone for
closing a flight plan? 4F2 is an airport in Texas from wherever the FSS is
located.

"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
> "James M. Knox" wrote:
>
> > Now admittedly, this was the FSS for Midland, but next he was probably
> > going to tell me that DFW doesn't exist.
>
> The 4F2 airport is in the area served by Ft. Worth FSS. I assume that you
> dialed 1-800-WX-BRIEF on your cell phone and were connected to San Angelo
> FSS because that's close to where your cell phone is registered.
>
> That doesn't work very well. If you use a cell phone and you're outside
of
> your home area, you need the A/FD for your current location to look up the
> discrete 866 number to ensure that you connect to the right FSS. The
> generic WX-BRIEF number is only good from a landline and sometimes not
then.
> I've been erroneously connected the Hawthorne FSS from a pay phone at an
> airport served by Riverside FSS.
>

[Craig Prouse]

"Mick Ruthven" wrote:

> What difference should it make what FSS you get on the cell phone for
> closing a flight plan? 4F2 is an airport in Texas from wherever the FSS is
> located.

Your flight plan has been forwarded to the FSS that serves your destination.
What do you think, that you can just call up any FSS in the country and have
them close your flight plan for you? This is the FAA we're talking about.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Mick Ruthven" > wrote in message
m...
>
> What difference should it make what FSS you get on the cell phone for
> closing a flight plan? 4F2 is an airport in Texas from wherever the FSS is
> located.
>

Sure, but not every FSS knows what ATC facility/sector to call in order to
relay the IFR cancellation.

[Dave Butler]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> Sure, but not every FSS knows what ATC facility/sector to call in order to
> relay the IFR cancellation.
>

So the burden is on me to figure out whom to contact.

Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to use to figure
it out? I suppose he's sitting at a desk in an air-conditioned room with access
to all the FAA publications, right?

Dave

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Chip Jones]

"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
> "Mick Ruthven" wrote:
>
> > What difference should it make what FSS you get on the cell phone for
> > closing a flight plan? 4F2 is an airport in Texas from wherever the FSS
is
> > located.
>
> Your flight plan has been forwarded to the FSS that serves your
destination.
> What do you think, that you can just call up any FSS in the country and
have
> them close your flight plan for you? This is the FAA we're talking about.
>

????? You can't close a flightplan with *any* FSS regardless of destination
and the destination FSS? Why not?

Chip, ZTL

[Chip Jones]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> >
> > Sure, but not every FSS knows what ATC facility/sector to call in order
to
> > relay the IFR cancellation.
> >
>
> So the burden is on me to figure out whom to contact.

I can't/don't believe this is correct.

>
> Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to use to
figure
> it out?

He can and he will.



>I suppose he's sitting at a desk in an air-conditioned room with access
> to all the FAA publications, right?

Yep. And all of those FAA land lines, and all of those FAA commercial phone
numbers, and all of those national FAA organizational phonebooks etc. It
ain't rocket science either... with 20 ARTCC's and what, 60 AFSS or so to
choose from?

Chip, ZTL

[Chip Jones]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mick Ruthven" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > What difference should it make what FSS you get on the cell phone for
> > closing a flight plan? 4F2 is an airport in Texas from wherever the FSS
is
> > located.
> >
>
> Sure, but not every FSS knows what ATC facility/sector to call in order to
> relay the IFR cancellation.
>

Maybe not every FSS specialist knows what ATC facility/sector to call, but
damn sure every FSS has both the ways and the means to *easily* figure out
what ATC facility to call, and to make that call. Every ARTCC in the United
States has a watch desk that is open 24 hours a day with land line
capability to every other ARTCC, the ATCSCC and every little tracon, tower
and FSS within every state that even a part of the ARTCC covers. All FSS
has to do is call the ARTCC
to relay the cancellation and it is done. Can't figure out which ARTCC owns
an airport? Call the ATCSCC...

Chip, ZTL

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> ????? You can't close a flightplan with *any* FSS regardless of
destination
> and the destination FSS? Why not?
>

Because not every FSS knows what ATC facility/sector to call in order to
relay the IFR cancellation.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> So the burden is on me to figure out whom to contact.
>

Do you think someone else should bear the burden of cancelling your IFR
clearance?


>
> Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to use to
figure
> it out?
>

He probably can, but why can't you use those resources? The first thing the
FSS specialist would have to do is figure out where 4F2 is, information you
should already have if you just completed a trip there. Then he'd have to
look up the field in the A/FD and determine what FSS to call, something you
should already know since you recently planned a trip there.

>
> I suppose he's sitting at a desk in an air-conditioned room with access
> to all the FAA publications, right?
>

Well, he's probably in an air-conditioned building that has all the
publications, but he's probably tied to a position and may not have ready
access to them.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> Maybe not every FSS specialist knows what ATC facility/sector to call, but
> damn sure every FSS has both the ways and the means to *easily* figure out
> what ATC facility to call, and to make that call. Every ARTCC in the
United
> States has a watch desk that is open 24 hours a day with land line
> capability to every other ARTCC, the ATCSCC and every little tracon, tower
> and FSS within every state that even a part of the ARTCC covers. All FSS
> has to do is call the ARTCC
> to relay the cancellation and it is done. Can't figure out which ARTCC
owns
> an airport? Call the ATCSCC...
>

Did you take a shot to the head recently?

[Craig Prouse]

Chip Jones wrote:

> ????? You can't close a flightplan with *any* FSS regardless of destination
> and the destination FSS? Why not?

It's not that you absolutely can't get your flight plan closed if you call
the wrong facility. You could call the ATCT in Anchorage and ask them to
close your flight plan, and it would probably get closed. It's just not the
most expeditious way to get it done. Depending on the mood of the person
taking your call, you might even get an irritated tone of voice and a
lecture about calling the correct FSS. I don't need the aggravation. If I
just look up the right phone number, everything goes more smoothly.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's not that you absolutely can't get your flight plan closed if you call
> the wrong facility. You could call the ATCT in Anchorage and ask them to
> close your flight plan, and it would probably get closed. It's just not
the
> most expeditious way to get it done.
>

Not the most expeditious is putting it mildly, especially when you consider
that the needed information is available to the pilot in the documents the
FAA publishes for flight planning purposes.

[Chip Jones]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> > Maybe not every FSS specialist knows what ATC facility/sector to call,
but
> > damn sure every FSS has both the ways and the means to *easily* figure
out
> > what ATC facility to call, and to make that call. Every ARTCC in the
> United
> > States has a watch desk that is open 24 hours a day with land line
> > capability to every other ARTCC, the ATCSCC and every little tracon,
tower
> > and FSS within every state that even a part of the ARTCC covers. All
FSS
> > has to do is call the ARTCC
> > to relay the cancellation and it is done. Can't figure out which ARTCC
> owns
> > an airport? Call the ATCSCC...
> >
>
> Did you take a shot to the head recently?
>

You mean other than liquid? No- you?

Chip, ZTL

[Roy Smith]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> He probably can, but why can't you use those resources? The first thing the
> FSS specialist would have to do is figure out where 4F2 is, information you
> should already have if you just completed a trip there. Then he'd have to
> look up the field in the A/FD and determine what FSS to call, something you
> should already know since you recently planned a trip there.

The way the system should work, is he types in your callsign and hits
the "cancel IFR" button. Should work from any terminal anywhere in the
world. But, I guess given that we're all flying airplanes with 1950's
technology, it's only fair that FSS is using 1950's technology too.

[Robert Henry]

"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
> Your flight plan has been forwarded to the FSS that serves your
destination.

I would expect as much for a VFR flight plan (SAR), but not for IFR, as was
the case for the poster of this thread.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> The way the system should work, is he types in your callsign and hits
> the "cancel IFR" button. Should work from any terminal anywhere in the
> world. But, I guess given that we're all flying airplanes with 1950's
> technology, it's only fair that FSS is using 1950's technology too.
>

That would appear to give a lot of people the ability to cancel an IFR
flight plan. Is that a good idea?

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The way the system should work, is he types in your callsign and hits
> > the "cancel IFR" button. Should work from any terminal anywhere in the
> > world. But, I guess given that we're all flying airplanes with 1950's
> > technology, it's only fair that FSS is using 1950's technology too.
> >
>
> That would appear to give a lot of people the ability to cancel an IFR
> flight plan. Is that a good idea?
>
>

A lot of people have the ability to cancel an IFR flight plan right now.
All I need do is call an FSS on the phone and say, "This is N12345, on
the ground at XYZ, cancel IFR" and nobody asks me to prove that I am who
I say I am. For that matter, I can stand on the ramp with a handheld
and pull the same stunt via radio.

But, in any case, I was talking about a terminal connected to the ATC
system. There is just no good reason (other than continued use of
archaic technology) why a FSS guy in Bridgeport shouldn't be able to
close an IFR flight plan for somebody who just landed at a field in
Texas and is calling in on his Connecticut-based cellphone.

[Dave Butler]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> Do you think someone else should bear the burden of cancelling your IFR
> clearance?

No.

>>Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to use to
>> figure it out?
>>
>
>
> He probably can, but why can't you use those resources?

I can.

[James M. Knox]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in
k.net:
>> Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to
>> use to figure it out?
>
> He can and he will.

Actually, in this case it was "He would, but he couldn't."

I am very familiar with how this all works. I was also drowning in the
rain and the WX-BRIEF number was what I had handy. I have used this
before, from half-way across the country. I have never had any trouble
with them simply forwarding the closure.

This guy was unable to do so because he could find no record of a big chunk
of Texas existing. He couldn't find either airport. He couldn't find what
sector to call. He claimed that his records showed that neither airport
designator existed. [He did speculate that he might be having "equipment
problems."]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Dave Butler]

James M. Knox wrote:
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in
> k.net:
>
>>>Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to
>>>use to figure it out?
>>
>>He can and he will.
>
>
> Actually, in this case it was "He would, but he couldn't."
>
> I am very familiar with how this all works. I was also drowning in the
> rain and the WX-BRIEF number was what I had handy. I have used this
> before, from half-way across the country. I have never had any trouble
> with them simply forwarding the closure.

The fact that FSS maintains a single 800 number for use countrywide leads to the
expectation that we are dealing with a monolithic FSS. I would guess that was
the image somebody wanted to project when they decided to provide a single
access number. That is, of course, the way it "should" work, anyway.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

[Roy Smith]

"James M. Knox" > wrote:
> This guy was unable to do so because he could find no record of a big chunk
> of Texas existing.

He was right. A big chunk of Texas doesn't exist. Why do you think all
those Texas politicians keep camping out in Oklahoma? They're just
looking for a place to be.

East Texas is actually in Pennsylvania.

[Chip Jones]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in
> k.net:
> >> Why can't the FS Specialist use the same resources I would have to
> >> use to figure it out?
> >
> > He can and he will.
>
> Actually, in this case it was "He would, but he couldn't."

In my opinion, he could but he wouldn't. All he had to do was what you
ultimately did, except it would have been far easier for him to do it than
for you to do it. Plus it's his job... There are what, 2 ARTCC's in Texas
and maybe four or five FSS? All he has to do is call either ZFW or ZHU (or
both) at the ARTCC 24 hour watch desk number and relay that your call sign
has cancelled IFR and *poof* he's done. The ARTCC can take it from there
regardless of what sector was working you and regardless of where you
landed, even if you landed somewhere other than a designated airport. This
stuff works the same way in every ARTCC in America.

>
> I am very familiar with how this all works. I was also drowning in the
> rain and the WX-BRIEF number was what I had handy. I have used this
> before, from half-way across the country. I have never had any trouble
> with them simply forwarding the closure.

To prevent this from happening again, simply regurgitate the last ATC
facility you worked with, or the last ARTCC (which actually owns the
airspace and delegates it to towers and tracons). When the moron tells you
that you have landed in the Twighlight Zone, Longview isn't an airport, and
half of Texas doesn't exist, tell him to call the ZFW watch desk and cancel
your IFR. He has the number- every ARTCC in the country is listed in any
AFD under "Key Air Traffic Facilities". It's even in the Alaska Supplement.

>
> This guy was unable to do so because he could find no record of a big
chunk
> of Texas existing. He couldn't find either airport. He couldn't find
what
> sector to call. He claimed that his records showed that neither airport
> designator existed. [He did speculate that he might be having "equipment
> problems."]
>

LOL. I can't imagine that a Texas FSS couldn't figure out how to call one
of the two Texas ARTCC's. He had probably just discovered that AOPA
supported privatizing his line of business because DUATS does a better job
for less money.

Chip, ZTL

[Chip Jones]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "James M. Knox" > wrote:
> > This guy was unable to do so because he could find no record of a big
chunk
> > of Texas existing.
>
> He was right. A big chunk of Texas doesn't exist. Why do you think all
> those Texas politicians keep camping out in Oklahoma? They're just
> looking for a place to be.

The trees around the OKC airport all bend noticably to the south. I asked a
native there why this was so, and she said it's because "Texas Sucks." :-)
[Her words, Texicans, her words alone...]

>
> East Texas is actually in Pennsylvania.

And Eastern Texas is actually just the natural manifest extension of the
Free and Sovereign State of South Carolina.

Chip, ZTL

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> I can.
>

So what's the problem then?

[Dave Butler]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I can.
>>
>
>
> So what's the problem then?

Most people here I think understand the problem. I don't have the time or
interest in explaining it to you. Read the thread, I think you can figure it out
if you want to. If you prefer to be obtuse, OK, that's your choice.

Dave

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
...
>
> Years ago, FSS publicized they had a way of connecting callers over to a
> meteorologist, upon request. Does that still exist? I doubt it.
> I don't recall any time in the past fifty years that briefers were
required
> to be meteorologists.
>
> On rare occasions, I've encountered briefers who had been meteorologists
> in a former life, usually during military service. But when employed as
> FSS briefers, their job is to disburse weather data, not interpret it.
>
> In the old days, we pilots could walk into a weather station to get
> aviation weather from an actual meteorologist.
> That must be the reason they taught us the station model in ground school.
>

In the old days, prior to 1961, only NWS gave pilot weather briefings. FSS
and it's predecessor facilities could only relay weather reports verbatim.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> A lot of people have the ability to cancel an IFR flight plan right now.
> All I need do is call an FSS on the phone and say, "This is N12345, on
> the ground at XYZ, cancel IFR" and nobody asks me to prove that I am who
> I say I am. For that matter, I can stand on the ramp with a handheld
> and pull the same stunt via radio.
>

A lot of people would have that ability if a lot of people knew N12345 was
on an IFR flight to XYZ. On your typical IFR trips, how many people know
your N-number and destination?


>
> But, in any case, I was talking about a terminal connected to the ATC
> system. There is just no good reason (other than continued use of
> archaic technology) why a FSS guy in Bridgeport shouldn't be able to
> close an IFR flight plan for somebody who just landed at a field in
> Texas and is calling in on his Connecticut-based cellphone.
>

If you're going to imagine a new capability for IFR flight plans why bother
with FSS at all? Why not just route a call to 1-800-IFR-PLAN to the
appropriate ATC position?

[Ray Andraka]

Even if it is cancelled with FSS, I don't think that is going to filter to ATC
and result in an automatic cancel without at least querying the pilot.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> Even if it is cancelled with FSS, I don't think that is going to filter to
ATC
> and result in an automatic cancel without at least querying the pilot.
>

An IFR flight plan is not cancelled when the pilot calls FSS, it's cancelled
when the FSS then calls ATC.

[Andrew Gideon]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> Not the most expeditious is putting it mildly, especially when you
> consider that the needed information is available to the pilot in the
> documents the FAA publishes for flight planning purposes.

ATC around here always offers an 800 number for closing the flight plan to
those IFR-ing into untowered fields.

- Andrew

[James M. Knox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
k.net:

> A lot of people would have that ability if a lot of people knew N12345
> was on an IFR flight to XYZ. On your typical IFR trips, how many
> people know your N-number and destination?

My first thought is... "Anyone who paid $9.95 to Flight Explorer."

> If you're going to imagine a new capability for IFR flight plans why
> bother with FSS at all? Why not just route a call to 1-800-IFR-PLAN
> to the appropriate ATC position?

Some of this is not the FAA's problem, it's the phone companies. There
is a mechanism the phone company offers that allows a call to an 800
number to be routed to a "local" service center. Unfortunately, this
was implemented before cell phones. There is NOT a mechanism (that I am
aware of) that allows the calls to be routed based on the LOCATION of
the cell phone, but rather only based on the "licensed" location of the
cell phone... i.e. home.

So if you buy your cell phone in New York, travel to LA, and call FSS -
you get New York FSS. It's dumb, but it's the way it is.

FWIW, I **would** normally have checked the AF/D (which now prints the
local FSS phone numbers), but I had not anticipated the need. The
forecast was for ceilings 6000, which would have easily allowed for both
canceling on the ground and likewise picking up my new clearance
airborne. [Usually good in that area down to about 1200 MSL.] But, as
we all know, there are forecasts, and there is *weather*!

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[John Harper]

My experience is that this is completely random. Sometimes my cellphone
gives me the local FSS correspondiong to where I am, sometimes it
gives me Oakland - as it would if I called it from my home airport, except
that there is no cellphone coverage at my home airport.

Generally, implementation of cellphones in the US calls to mind the
observation once made (a long time ago) about Englishwomen's
shoes: that they appear to have been made by someone who has
heard shoes described, but never actually seen one. It blows my mind
that the heart of Silicon Valley has grossly inadequate cellphone coverage,
for example, but it's true. And as for international roaming with a US
phone, good luck.

John

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
> k.net:
>
> > A lot of people would have that ability if a lot of people knew N12345
> > was on an IFR flight to XYZ. On your typical IFR trips, how many
> > people know your N-number and destination?
>
> My first thought is... "Anyone who paid $9.95 to Flight Explorer."
>
> > If you're going to imagine a new capability for IFR flight plans why
> > bother with FSS at all? Why not just route a call to 1-800-IFR-PLAN
> > to the appropriate ATC position?
>
> Some of this is not the FAA's problem, it's the phone companies. There
> is a mechanism the phone company offers that allows a call to an 800
> number to be routed to a "local" service center. Unfortunately, this
> was implemented before cell phones. There is NOT a mechanism (that I am
> aware of) that allows the calls to be routed based on the LOCATION of
> the cell phone, but rather only based on the "licensed" location of the
> cell phone... i.e. home.
>
> So if you buy your cell phone in New York, travel to LA, and call FSS -
> you get New York FSS. It's dumb, but it's the way it is.
>
> FWIW, I **would** normally have checked the AF/D (which now prints the
> local FSS phone numbers), but I had not anticipated the need. The
> forecast was for ceilings 6000, which would have easily allowed for both
> canceling on the ground and likewise picking up my new clearance
> airborne. [Usually good in that area down to about 1200 MSL.] But, as
> we all know, there are forecasts, and there is *weather*!
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> James M. Knox
> TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
> 1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
> Austin, Tx 78721
> -----------------------------------------------

[Roy Smith]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
> If you're going to imagine a new capability for IFR flight plans why bother
> with FSS at all? Why not just route a call to 1-800-IFR-PLAN to the
> appropriate ATC position?

Sounds good to me.

[Newps]

Chip Jones wrote:


>
> The trees around the OKC airport all bend noticably to the south. I asked a
> native there why this was so, and she said it's because "Texas Sucks." :-)
> [Her words, Texicans, her words alone...]

Same reason the Mighty Miss flows south, because Iowa sucks.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> Same reason the Mighty Miss flows south, because Iowa sucks.
>

Are you aware it flows past Iowa?

[Ron Natalie]

"John Harper" > wrote in message news:1065572854.391864@sj-nntpcache-3...
> My experience is that this is completely random

The number presented to the 800 routing is the billing number. Depending
on how you are injected into the cellular network it may be your home number
or a number geographically similar to it, or it maybe something dependent on
the cellular carrier whose system you are locally using

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> The fact that FSS maintains a single 800 number for use countrywide leads
> to the expectation that we are dealing with a monolithic FSS. I would
guess
> that was the image somebody wanted to project when they decided to
> provide a single access number. That is, of course, the way it "should"
work,
> anyway.
>

The single 800 number that FSS maintains for use countrywide, 1-800-WX
BRIEF, is for preflight weather briefings. Use of it for other purposes,
such as canceling IFR, can connect you to a station that is unable to
provide the service sought.

[Snowbird]

Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
> "James M. Knox" > wrote:
> > This guy was unable to do so because he could find no record of a big chunk
> > of Texas existing.
>
> He was right. A big chunk of Texas doesn't exist. Why do you think all
> those Texas politicians keep camping out in Oklahoma? They're just
> looking for a place to be.
>
> East Texas is actually in Pennsylvania.

A friend of mine now refers to "Texas North" (MN) and "Middle Texas"
(aka Missouri). I leave his reasoning for the intelligent reader to
deduce -- I'm not gonna go there.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
>
> Some of this is not the FAA's problem, it's the phone companies. There
> is a mechanism the phone company offers that allows a call to an 800
> number to be routed to a "local" service center. Unfortunately, this
> was implemented before cell phones. There is NOT a mechanism (that I am
> aware of) that allows the calls to be routed based on the LOCATION of
> the cell phone, but rather only based on the "licensed" location of the
> cell phone... i.e. home.
>
> So if you buy your cell phone in New York, travel to LA, and call FSS -
> you get New York FSS. It's dumb, but it's the way it is.
>

I recall reading about this problem some years ago, it had to do with cell
phone calls to 911. Was that deficiency not corrected?


>
> FWIW, I **would** normally have checked the AF/D (which now prints the
> local FSS phone numbers), but I had not anticipated the need. The
> forecast was for ceilings 6000, which would have easily allowed for both
> canceling on the ground and likewise picking up my new clearance
> airborne. [Usually good in that area down to about 1200 MSL.] But, as
> we all know, there are forecasts, and there is *weather*!
>

I assume you meant "canceling in the air".

[James M. Knox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

> I recall reading about this problem some years ago, it had to do with
> cell phone calls to 911. Was that deficiency not corrected?

Nope. I have the similar problem with 311 (911 for urgent but not
emergency situations). If I call to report an unsafe condition while
driving to or from the airport I will get Austin (where my phone is
located). They will have to transfer me to the more local police
department in whatever city I am actually calling from.

Eventually e911 will solve this particular problem, but by a different
mechanism. Still won't help with things like FSS.

> I assume you meant "canceling in the air".

Doh! Yes, quite correct.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
>
> Eventually e911 will solve this particular problem, but by a different
> mechanism. Still won't help with things like FSS.
>

Why not? Why would it work for 911 but not FSS?

[James M. Knox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
ink.net:

> Why not? Why would it work for 911 but not FSS?

Because it is not solving the basic underlying problem. Instead it is a
"fix" specifically for 911. It *does* go well beyond the requirement to
identify your general location - it requires that you be located with a
hundred feet or so (depending on urban vs. rural environment).

As such it is not designed to be used on "routine" calls - only on a very
limited emergency basis.

The basic problem could obviously be fixed. The system always knows which
cell site your phone is registered to at any given moment. But changing
the routing sequence on the fly for a somewhat arbitrary selection of calls
is software development money that the public carriers are not going to
spend.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Ron Natalie]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message ink.net...

>
> I recall reading about this problem some years ago, it had to do with cell
> phone calls to 911. Was that deficiency not corrected?
>
There's no pressing requirement (yet) that they fix the 800 number routing.
Nobody is worked up over it, there isn't a whole lot of people who route calls
based on a hard location (usually it's just a load distribution thing).

[Ron Natalie]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message ...
> >
> The basic problem could obviously be fixed. The system always knows which
> cell site your phone is registered to at any given moment. But changing
> the routing sequence on the fly for a somewhat arbitrary selection of calls
> is software development money that the public carriers are not going to
> spend.

It will probably get pushed to a head commercially when they start requiring
more fancy number portability (accross area codes).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> Most people here I think understand the problem.
>

I believe you're right about that.


>
> I don't have the time or interest in explaining it to you.
>

You're not in a position to explain it to me.


>
> Read the thread, I think you can figure it out if you want to.
>

I had it nailed from the start.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> In my opinion, he could but he wouldn't. All he had to do was what you
> ultimately did, except it would have been far easier for him to do it than
> for you to do it. Plus it's his job...
>

How would it have been far easier for a distant FSS? Where does chasing
down distant ARTCC phone numbers appear in his job description?

[James M. Knox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
nk.net:

> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
>> Plus it's his job...
>
> How would it have been far easier for a distant FSS? Where does
> chasing down distant ARTCC phone numbers appear in his job
> description?

I thought this thread had run its course two weeks ago, but suddenly two
new msg's popped up.

As for the above question... well, I'd say it appears under the name Flight
SERVICE Station, just above where it lists "opening and closing flight
plans" as one of their duties (and by presumption, whatever is necessary in
order to do that).

Remember, this is normally not a problem. Just this one particular day
that one particular guy was (by his own admission) having trouble getting a
clue. Usually they are pretty good at tracking down requested information.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
>
> Remember, this is normally not a problem. Just this one particular day
> that one particular guy was (by his own admission) having trouble getting
a
> clue. Usually they are pretty good at tracking down requested
information.
>

The key word in my questions was "distant".

[Dave Butler]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> You're not in a position to explain it to me.
>
> I had it nailed from the start.

If you already know the answer, and don't think I can answer it anyway, don't
ask the question.