Great Lakes lake effect snow

[Paul Tomblin]

Ok, it's coming up to that season, and was vividly demonstrated when I got
hit by hail driving through Watertown last night. I drive a lot between
Rochester NY and Ottawa Ontario, and Rochester NY and Whitby Ontario, and
frequently those drives are in good VFR conditions except for that band of
lake effect snow coming off of Lake Ontario at Watertown, and the one
coming off of Lake Erie at Buffalo.

This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
I can fly these trips.
Questions:

1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?

2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and Tanuki

[Ray Andraka]

The lake effect weather produces some of the worst icing in the country. Even if
you can go over it, consider what your options are should you need to land now.

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> Ok, it's coming up to that season, and was vividly demonstrated when I got
> hit by hail driving through Watertown last night. I drive a lot between
> Rochester NY and Ottawa Ontario, and Rochester NY and Whitby Ontario, and
> frequently those drives are in good VFR conditions except for that band of
> lake effect snow coming off of Lake Ontario at Watertown, and the one
> coming off of Lake Erie at Buffalo.
>
> This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
> I can fly these trips.
> Questions:
>
> 1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?
>
> 2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
> They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
> the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and Tanuki

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[David Megginson]

(Paul Tomblin) writes:

> This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
> I can fly these trips.
> Questions:
>
> 1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?
>
> 2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?

I'm interested in the same questions, but further to #1, I was
wondering if anyone can post a complete-idiot's guide to using
portable oxygen in an airplane: everyone who writes about using
oxygen, either online or in aviation books and magazines, seems to
assume that the whole process is simple and obvious.

I know that people who fly in the mountains learn this stuff from day
one, but as a flatland pilot, I've never even talked with a pilot who
uses portable oxygen, much less used it myself (I've never flown over
9,000 ft MSL). I'm not even sure how to get started. I've heard of
canulas, and I know that some people use welder's oxygen, but that's
pretty-much it.


All the best,


David

[Peter R.]

Ray Andraka ) wrote:

> The lake effect weather produces some of the worst icing in the country.
> Even if you can go over it, consider what your options are should you need
> to land now.

Ray, is this true when these lake effect clouds are actually producing
snow?

I received my instrument ticket out of Syracuse, NY (just south of the OP's
lake effect band area in question) last winter. My instructor told me,
which was also confirmed by a meteorologist at an AOPA safety seminar, that
clouds producing large amounts of snow have very little water in them for
icing.

Additionally, I purposely flew a few hours of IMC with my instructor last
year in heavy lake effect snow bands (albeit never higher than 4,000 ft -
temps around 10-20 degrees F) and, during those flights, we did not
experience any icing.

--
Peter












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[Craig Prouse]

"David Megginson" wrote:

> I'm interested in the same questions, but further to #1, I was
> wondering if anyone can post a complete-idiot's guide to using
> portable oxygen in an airplane: everyone who writes about using
> oxygen, either online or in aviation books and magazines, seems to
> assume that the whole process is simple and obvious.

It mostly is trivially simple. If you've never put on a cannula before it
might take you a couple tries to get it on right. The trick is to get it
around your neck then back over your ears and have it facing the right
direction under your nose. That and getting it to fit with the bows of your
sunglasses, your hat, and your headset. It can be quite a production.

Which leads to tip #2. If you think you're going to want O2, put your
cannula on during your preflight preparations. It's just easier to do it on
the ground. This also solves the problem my wife had the first time, which
is that you'll never figure out how to put on the cannula once you're
hypoxic.

Turn on the gas at the tank. My cannula also has a needle valve to meter
the precise amount of oxygen for the altitude. It's got a little ball that
floats along a scale which is calibrated in thousands of feet. If I'm
flying at 13000, I adjust the needle valve so the ball floats between the 12
and the 14.

Cannulas are not effective for delivery above 18,000. I've flown a couple
times at 17,500, and I had to open up the needle valve wide open in order to
stay alert. It was damn cold up there too. Note: never open a soda at that
altitude, or you'll be wearing most of it.


> I know that people who fly in the mountains learn this stuff from day
> one, but as a flatland pilot, I've never even talked with a pilot who
> uses portable oxygen, much less used it myself (I've never flown over
> 9,000 ft MSL). I'm not even sure how to get started. I've heard of
> canulas, and I know that some people use welder's oxygen, but that's
> pretty-much it.

For the same reason that helium gives you the voice of a cartoon squirrel,
oxygen gives you a nice deep airline captain's voice on the radio. A nice
deep nasally congested airline captain, anyway.

Oxygen is basically free. Whatever you pay for a refill is a service
charge, so it varies radically depending on how badly people want to fill
your tank for you. Every once in a while I get a free refill, but when I
pay it's usually in the ballpark of $25. I only fill up once or twice a
year.

I usually use O2 for flights at 9500 and up, especially if I'm going to be
up there for a couple of hours. Recently I had a three-hour flight at
11,000 and I did not use O2, and I could feel myself starting to get punchy.
I use it at night when 5000 or above.

You can get a really nice portable O2 system for significantly less than the
cost of a handheld GPS. If you fly an airplane that can get you above
10,000 easily, it really makes sense to have one. Out here on the west
coast, MEAs go up to 10-12K just to fly back and forth between the largest
cities (Portland-San Francisco, San Francisco-Los Angeles). I spend a lot
of time up there.

[David Megginson]

Craig Prouse > writes:

> You can get a really nice portable O2 system for significantly less
> than the cost of a handheld GPS. If you fly an airplane that can
> get you above 10,000 easily, it really makes sense to have one. Out
> here on the west coast, MEAs go up to 10-12K just to fly back and
> forth between the largest cities (Portland-San Francisco, San
> Francisco-Los Angeles). I spend a lot of time up there.

Thanks for all the info. Any recommendations on manufacturers? How
long does a tank last when you have four people breathing from it
instead of just the pilot?


All the best,


David

[Craig Prouse]

"David Megginson" wrote:

> Thanks for all the info. Any recommendations on manufacturers? How
> long does a tank last when you have four people breathing from it
> instead of just the pilot?

Mine is Nelson (aka Precise Flight). I didn't choose it, but I'm very happy
with it. The previous owner of my plane threw it in as part of the deal.

When you've got four people in the airplane, it's less likely that you'll be
able to drag your gross weight up to where your passengers need O2. My
regulator has a manifold for four cannulas, but I've never used more than
two simultaneously.

Here is a link to some mfg data. My experience is reasonably consistent
with their claims.

http://www.preciseflight.com/durationstable.html

My tank is the 22 cu ft model. Installation is on the back of the copilot's
seat. A harness attaches to the seat back, and the tank straps to the
harness. In a C182, there's plenty of room for the rear seat passenger's
knees once the copilot seat is brought forward to its normal position. If
you fly something with less rear seat leg room, it might get crowded.

[Mike Rapoport]

This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which results from
the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type snow
results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that are snowing
a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.

Mike
MU-2


"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Ray Andraka ) wrote:
>
> > The lake effect weather produces some of the worst icing in the country.
> > Even if you can go over it, consider what your options are should you
need
> > to land now.
>
> Ray, is this true when these lake effect clouds are actually producing
> snow?
>
> I received my instrument ticket out of Syracuse, NY (just south of the
OP's
> lake effect band area in question) last winter. My instructor told me,
> which was also confirmed by a meteorologist at an AOPA safety seminar,
that
> clouds producing large amounts of snow have very little water in them for
> icing.
>
> Additionally, I purposely flew a few hours of IMC with my instructor last
> year in heavy lake effect snow bands (albeit never higher than 4,000 ft -
> temps around 10-20 degrees F) and, during those flights, we did not
> experience any icing.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Tarver Engineering]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
.net...
> This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which results
from
> the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type snow
> results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that are
snowing
> a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.

The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
>I'm interested in the same questions, but further to #1, I was
>wondering if anyone can post a complete-idiot's guide to using
>portable oxygen in an airplane:

Maybe not exactly what you were looking for but:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

I can say that medical O2, welders O2 and aviation O2 all come off the
same tank, so they are exactly the same product. I don't know if the
various tanks or eqp used have any affect on flow/use thou.

[David Megginson]

('Vejita' S. Cousin) writes:

> Maybe not exactly what you were looking for but:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>
> I can say that medical O2, welders O2 and aviation O2 all come off the
> same tank, so they are exactly the same product. I don't know if the
> various tanks or eqp used have any affect on flow/use thou.

Thanks. That's one of the few online sources I did find, but it's
good to have the confirmation that the oxygen is the same thing.


All the best,


David

[EDR]

In article >, Paul Tomblin
> wrote:

Contact NASA Lewis Research Center, Cleveland OH.
The were giving out Icing DVD's at Sun N Fun this past spring.
They fly a Twin Otter out of Cleveland every winter, searching for ice.
Lake Erie is on the boundary for high pressure/cold fronts blasting off
the Canadian Plains and low pressure/warm fronts moving up from the
Gulf of Mexico. The fronts frequently stall and become stationary in
the Ohio-Indianna vicinity. If you are on the warm side, ice can be
found near the boundary as the cold upper air overflows the warm lower
air. This may be 100 nm ahead of the front.
Ice is elusive, but if the conditions are right, it can hang around as
it did for four days last winter December 31 - January 3 in Southern
Ohio/Northern Kentucky. An east-west cold front stalled along the Ohio
River late in the afternoon of December 31. Temperature/dew points
hovered between 34 and 27 degrees for the next three days.
Precipitation in the form of fog, snow, rain, freezing rain were
prevelent for the duration.
I sat for two days in Mount Sterling KY before driving home to Columbus
OH. I drove back to Mount Sterling two days later when the weather
cleared.

[Tom S.]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> .net...
> > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which results
> from
> > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type snow
> > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that are
> snowing
> > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
>
> The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
>
Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > .net...
> > > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
results
> > from
> > > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type
snow
> > > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that are
> > snowing
> > > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
> >
> > The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
> >
> Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?

Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely to
form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

[Teacherjh]

>>
Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely to
form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

>>

What is "rudder reversal"?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely to
> form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)

> What is "rudder reversal"?

Rudder reversal is a when the pilot commands rudder in one direction and the
airplane reacts as though opposite rudder was commanded. In icing
conditions, small GA aircraft are especially suseptable to flow seperation
due to icing of tail surfaces. Flow seperation is a known cause of "rudder
reversal".

[Mike Rapoport]

You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the airplane
and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for beyond
the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
separation.

Mike
MU-2


"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > .net...
> > > > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
> results
> > > from
> > > > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type
> snow
> > > > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that are
> > > snowing
> > > > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
> > >
> > > The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
> > >
> > Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?
>
> Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely to
> form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)
>
>

[John R. Copeland]

And that will quickly inflate you like a balloon! :-)
---JRC---

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message =
...
> Craig Prouse > wrote:
>=20
> >It's got a little ball that
> >floats along a scale which is calibrated in thousands of feet.
>=20
> If you have one of the inline tubing scale-with-ball, you
> need to hold the scale vertical to read it or the little
> ball can roll to the max flow reading.
>=20
>=20
> Todd Pattist
>

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, Craig Prouse >
writes:

>You can get a really nice portable O2 system for significantly less than the
>cost of a handheld GPS.

Nice review, Craig. Thoughts on where to get a simple portable system?

Chuck

[lardsoup]

A friend of mine flys from Morristown to Buffalo and back a couple times a
week, mostly at night, and he has all kinds of stories of icing. Some of it
sounds pretty scary.

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> Ok, it's coming up to that season, and was vividly demonstrated when I got
> hit by hail driving through Watertown last night. I drive a lot between
> Rochester NY and Ottawa Ontario, and Rochester NY and Whitby Ontario, and
> frequently those drives are in good VFR conditions except for that band of
> lake effect snow coming off of Lake Ontario at Watertown, and the one
> coming off of Lake Erie at Buffalo.
>
> This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
> I can fly these trips.
> Questions:
>
> 1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?
>
> 2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
> They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
> the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and
Tanuki

[Craig Prouse]

PaulaJay1 wrote:

> Thoughts on where to get a simple portable system?


Online sales, or direct from the manufacturer:

http://www.preciseflight.com/
http://www.nelsonoxygen.com/
(located at the Bend, Oregon Muni airport, S07)


Retail sales at the local airports' pilot shops:

http://www.airportshoppe.com/aviation_oxygen/index.html


Sporty's catalog sales:

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/


As I posted elsewhere, I have a Nelson system. I also happen to have family
in Bend, Oregon, home of Precise Flight. I was suspecting a slow leak from
the pressure port on my cylinder, so I just hand carried it to their
facility on the airport during a visit there. The folks there fixed up my
cylinder and returned it to me full of O2 at no charge, while I waited.
They also gave me some tips to help extend the life of my system.

I'd tend to suggest that you find an exhibit with a prospective O2 system on
display where you can actually turn the knobs and try putting on the cannula
and make sure that the system feels good for you, and maybe even get some
personal attention like I did at the factory. Of course my system just came
with the airplane. If you aren't familiar with filling and transporting
compressed gas cylinders, it's also worth getting a safety briefing so
you're aware of the hazards. I was initially familiar with CO2 cylinders
for beverage applications, and O2 has a couple of additional safety
considerations.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the airplane
> and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
beyond
> the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
> separation.

I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives a
pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > .net...
> > > > > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
> > results
> > > > from
> > > > > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet" type
> > snow
> > > > > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that
are
> > > > snowing
> > > > > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
> > > >
> > > > The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
> > > >
> > > Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?
> >
> > Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely
to
> > form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)
> >
> >
>
>

[Scott Lowrey]

"Craig Prouse" said
>
> Cannulas are not effective for delivery above 18,000. I've flown a couple
> times at 17,500, and I had to open up the needle valve wide open in order
to
> stay alert.

According to the Jepp instrument manual, "If you use a cannula, you should
be aware that the FAA restricts its use to a maximum altitude of 18,000
feet. Above this altitude, you must use an oronasal mask that provides an
adequate seal to your face."

I couldn't find this in the FAR's - 91.211 doesn't mention cannulas. Aside
from the good sensibility of the idea, does anybody know if this is in the
regulations?

-Scott

[Mike Rapoport]

Sorry, but you are recalling it backwards.

Mike
MU-2


"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the
airplane
> > and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
> beyond
> > the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
> > separation.
>
> I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives a
> pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.
>
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > > .net...
> > > > > > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type which
> > > results
> > > > > from
> > > > > > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet"
type
> > > snow
> > > > > > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds that
> are
> > > > > snowing
> > > > > > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
> > > > >
> > > > > The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
> > > > >
> > > > Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?
> > >
> > > Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more likely
> to
> > > form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Sorry, but you are recalling it backwards.

Could be, maybe I'll dig out the URL later.


> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > You have it backwards, large droplets are more likely to hit the
> airplane
> > > and form ice. Additionally large droplet ice is more lilkely to for
> > beyond
> > > the protected surfaces into ridges and horns which can cause airflow
> > > separation.
> >
> > I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He gives
a
> > pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.
> >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tom S." > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > > > .net...
> > > > > > > This is true if the snow being produced is the flake type
which
> > > > results
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > the direct crystalization of water vapor. The round "pellet"
> type
> > > > snow
> > > > > > > results from the freezing of liquid cloud droplets. Clouds
that
> > are
> > > > > > snowing
> > > > > > > a lot of pellet type snow have a lot of ice in them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The smaller droplets being the more dangerous.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Rime ice? Why? That part breaks more easily from surfaces?
> > > >
> > > > Icing is a statistical phenomenon and smaller droplets are more
likely
> > to
> > > > form ice on wing and rudder surfaces. (ie rudder reversal)
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:29:53 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

>Ok, it's coming up to that season, and was vividly demonstrated when I got
>hit by hail driving through Watertown last night. I drive a lot between
>Rochester NY and Ottawa Ontario, and Rochester NY and Whitby Ontario, and
>frequently those drives are in good VFR conditions except for that band of
>lake effect snow coming off of Lake Ontario at Watertown, and the one
>coming off of Lake Erie at Buffalo.
>
>This will be my first year with an instrument ticket, and I'm wondering if
>I can fly these trips.
>Questions:
>
>1. How high up do those bands go? Can I go over them without oxygen?

I can only speak for the Michigan end. Here the lake effect snows
seldom go above about 6,000, BUT early in the season and again on
toward spring all bets are off.

I've not seen any that I couldn't get over with out oxygen. However
that is no guarantee.

>
>2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?

You are asking about snow storms and not lake effect storms in
general.

When I've been in Lake Effect Snow Storms the temperatures were in the
teens, or even lower and I saw no ice accumulation at all.

Just remember there are Lake effect enhanced snows and lake effect
snows. The main thing is to watch the temperatures.

Some people won't fly over water and some won't fly over storms. I do
both, but I try to stay within a reasonable distance to safety. Lake
effect storms are seldom wide...Long, certainly, but many are no more
than 20 or 30 miles wide. Some of them coming off the end of Lake
Eire can be wider.


Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

[David Megginson]

"Tarver Engineering" > writes:

> I got my information from John Brownlee FAA flight test pilot. He
> gives a pretty interesting power point presentation on the subject.

Here's the poop from the weather study guide for my IFR training:

The size of the droplets and the frequency with which the strike the
aircraft are important because the character of the ice depends on
whether or not each drop freezes completely before another drop
strikes the same spot. If the droplets pile rapidly on each other
before being completely frozen, the unfrozen parts mingle and spread
out before freezing. If the droplets freeze completely before being
hit by another droplet, a large amount of air is trapped causing the
ice to be opaque and brittle.

and later,

Because of the low adhesive properties of rime, it is generally
readily removed by de-icing equipment.

and

CLEAR ICE - This type of ice has high adhesive and cohesive
properties. Unlike rime, it can spread from the leading edges, and
in severe cases may cover the whole surface of the aircraft.

(From the Canadian Forces Air Command Weather Manual, Chapter 9.) Of
course, the adhesive properties are irrelevant when I don't have
deicing equipment anyway, but the spread still matters.


All the best,


David

[vincent p. norris]

>2. If I can't go over them, do they produce airframe ice?

Earlsy one April, I picked up so much clear ice so fast, near
Williamsport, PA, that with full throttle, my Cherokee was down to 85
knots and barely holding altitude.

Fortunately I had an "out." The ceiling was around 2000 agl and I was
able to shoot an approach to Williamsport.

Even if there's no icing, the snow itself can kill you.

Some years ago, a guy took off from somewhere north of here, in New
York or New England. He was heading to an airport south of here, in
Kentucky or Virginia.

His route took him over Phillipsburg VOR, in the center of PA. Here,
it was snowing hard. He was having engine problems as he neared
Phillipsburg, and called the FSS there (it's since been closed, but
then it was on the field at Midstate Airport, a few miles from the
VOR.)

He shot an approach, but had to miss. He then asked where he could
find VMC, and was told to try going to Williamsport.

He got as far as Lock haven, when his engine conked out. Snow had
filled his air intake and choked his engine.

He and his three passengers died.

vince norris

[Robert M. Gary]

('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> >I'm interested in the same questions, but further to #1, I was
> >wondering if anyone can post a complete-idiot's guide to using
> >portable oxygen in an airplane:
>
> Maybe not exactly what you were looking for but:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>
> I can say that medical O2, welders O2 and aviation O2 all come off the
> same tank, so they are exactly the same product. I don't know if the
> various tanks or eqp used have any affect on flow/use thou.


Good luck finding a medical O2 company that will fill a tank. Around
here they just do exchanges. I'm not sure what the welders do. If you
use O2 a lot, just spend the $200 for a giant tank to keep in the
garage. You'll get a couple years of fill out of it.

[Robert M. Gary]

David Megginson > wrote in message >...
> Craig Prouse > writes:
>
> > You can get a really nice portable O2 system for significantly less
> > than the cost of a handheld GPS. If you fly an airplane that can
> > get you above 10,000 easily, it really makes sense to have one. Out
> > here on the west coast, MEAs go up to 10-12K just to fly back and
> > forth between the largest cities (Portland-San Francisco, San
> > Francisco-Los Angeles). I spend a lot of time up there.
>
> Thanks for all the info. Any recommendations on manufacturers? How
> long does a tank last when you have four people breathing from it
> instead of just the pilot?

I really like my AirOx. Its a bit more expensive than a lower end
units (like SkyOx) but has a much better regulator. The amount of O2
you use depends on the altitude (pressure altitude actually). I have
my wife and two kids. The kids have a regular cannula and the wife and
I have the Oxysavers (as far as I know, no one makes Oxysavers for
kids). As a result, we all use the same amount of O2 (the kids use 1/2
as much but waste twice as much). With a full tank we have no problem
at 12,000 feet + for 8 hours. That usually puts us just below 1/2 on
the tank. Be aware that the price to fill O2 at the airport can
REALLY, REALLY vary. I've been charged as little as $20 and as much as
$80 (SAC Exec Patterson). Its also not unusual for even large FBOs to
be out of O2. Also, if you fill at sea level you seem to get more than
in NM or such.


-Robert

[Rod]

Peter wrote:
>
....
> I use the Aerox system. My only complaint about it is that the ball
> flowmeter obviously has to be somehow oriented vertically, and that
> means velcro-ing it to something (which is tacky and the plastic pipes
> just rip the velcro off) or hanging it off the cockpit ceiling (which
> is great but the pipe coming off the top of the flowmeter gets a kink
> in it which appears as if it might shut off the flow. They should have
> a flowmeter on which both input and output pipes attach at the bottom,
> and which has a hook or an eyelet of some sort at the top. But the DIY
> solution is simple enough...

The ball in the flowmeter is only used to indicate the flow rate. The
rate itself is controlled by the needle valve. This means you only need
to hold the flowmeter vertically while you adjust the valve. After that
it's fine to let it dangle in any orientation. You just need to hold it
back up vertically to check occasionally that the flow rate hasn't
changed.

Rod