IFR Routing Toronto to Windsor (CYTZ - CYQG)

[Rob Pesan]

Just got my rating a few months ago and have a few questions;

I want to fly from Toronto City Center (CYTZ) to Windsor (CYQG) IFR.
The CFS shows a preferred route of: V443 YQO HADAR ARRIVAL

I assume I would be cleared via the Island 8 departure and vectored to
V443. The HADAR arrival says DME required, yet I don't have DME so
what to file??

On the return trip the preferred route is: DXO DXO 093 V90 V443 YQO
V460 BEATE
I would assume here that one would be vectored from BEATE since the
CYTZ don't show and transitions from here?

The second problem on the return is the MEA. A short section of V90
DOLFN to BELZY before intercepting V443 has a 10,000' MEA. There must
be some way around this for a poor C-172.

Any help would be appreciated by this IFR newbie!

Thanks

Rob

[David Megginson]

(Rob Pesan) writes:

> I assume I would be cleared via the Island 8 departure and vectored
> to V443. The HADAR arrival says DME required, yet I don't have DME
> so what to file??

Don't file a STAR, and don't accept the HADAR arrival if it shows up
in your clearance (it might be a good idea to get your clearance on a
handheld before starting up, since it could be a long negotiation).
Try filing something like YQO V2 HADAR DIRECT YQC CYQC and see what
happens. It looks like identifying STROW in the STAR would be the
problem, since it's only a DME fix.

> On the return trip the preferred route is: DXO DXO 093 V90 V443 YQO
> V460 BEATE I would assume here that one would be vectored from BEATE
> since the CYTZ don't show and transitions from here?

I'll guess that you're going to be vectored automatically *anywhere*
inside the Toronto Terminal area, but you probably have more
experience with that area than I have (I've flown only three times
inside it).

> The second problem on the return is the MEA. A short section of V90
> DOLFN to BELZY before intercepting V443 has a 10,000' MEA. There must
> be some way around this for a poor C-172.

.... and since 10,000 ft would be WAFDOF for an eastbound flight, you'd
have to plan on 11,000 ft. So, to be legal, you'd end up carrying
oxygen *and* water survival equipment for this trip (since you'll be
in the middle of Lake Erie, out of gliding distance from land).
Personally, I'm too nervous to take a single-engine plane that far out
over cold, open water, so I would refuse that clearance. If they
don't want you on V443 going back to Toronto, try filing a more
northern route through YXU, which seems to have reasonable MEAs.

> Any help would be appreciated by this IFR newbie!

This is from another IFR newbie (and one who has not flown IFR in SW
Ontario), so take with an appropriate grain of salt.


All the best,


David

[Ross Magnaldo]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
...
> (Rob Pesan) writes:
>
> > I assume I would be cleared via the Island 8 departure and vectored
> > to V443. The HADAR arrival says DME required, yet I don't have DME
> > so what to file??
>
> Don't file a STAR, and don't accept the HADAR arrival if it shows up
> in your clearance (it might be a good idea to get your clearance on a
> handheld before starting up, since it could be a long negotiation).
> Try filing something like YQO V2 HADAR DIRECT YQC CYQC and see what
> happens. It looks like identifying STROW in the STAR would be the
> problem, since it's only a DME fix.
>

You'll get your clearance from City Ground prior to departure, most probably
via the Island 8 Dep. File V443 YQO V2 HADAR CYQC, you'll be vectored from
HADAR onwards. If they give you the STAR then you have the right to refuse
it and ask them to provide alternate instructions.

> > On the return trip the preferred route is: DXO DXO 093 V90 V443 YQO
> > V460 BEATE I would assume here that one would be vectored from BEATE
> > since the CYTZ don't show and transitions from here?
>
> I'll guess that you're going to be vectored automatically *anywhere*
> inside the Toronto Terminal area, but you probably have more
> experience with that area than I have (I've flown only three times
> inside it).
>

If you are single engine then file another route (V265) unless you're
comfortable flying overe the lake (from BEATE). The MEA from BEATE to CYTZ
is 3100 and you will be vectored.

> > The second problem on the return is the MEA. A short section of V90
> > DOLFN to BELZY before intercepting V443 has a 10,000' MEA. There must
> > be some way around this for a poor C-172.
>
> ... and since 10,000 ft would be WAFDOF for an eastbound flight, you'd
> have to plan on 11,000 ft. So, to be legal, you'd end up carrying
> oxygen *and* water survival equipment for this trip (since you'll be
> in the middle of Lake Erie, out of gliding distance from land).
> Personally, I'm too nervous to take a single-engine plane that far out
> over cold, open water, so I would refuse that clearance. If they
> don't want you on V443 going back to Toronto, try filing a more
> northern route through YXU, which seems to have reasonable MEAs.
>

If you were to take this route (not recommended) the minimum altitude you
should file for is 6000 (MRA at DOGGS). I would recommend filing V98 V104
or V2 V443 to avoid the issue. You could always file to depart VFR and pick
up your IFR clearance at HADAR or DESDN en route.

> > Any help would be appreciated by this IFR newbie!
>
> This is from another IFR newbie (and one who has not flown IFR in SW
> Ontario), so take with an appropriate grain of salt.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David

And a third IFR newbie (got my rating at CYTZ)

Fly safely,

Ross

[David Megginson]

"Ross Magnaldo" > writes:

> And a third IFR newbie (got my rating at CYTZ)

It's a fantastic airport -- too bad about the high-cost of tie-downs
for aircraft based there (around CAD 600.00/month, isn't it?). Of
course, CAD 20.00/night isn't so bad when you're just visiting for a
couple of days, especially since they waive the first night with a
fuel purchase.


All the best,


David

[Ross Magnaldo]

It's great down town airport for flying in and out of. On top of all those
fees there is also the crossing to pay from the island ($5.5 for each trip
from the island ).
One of my best routes for "new" passengers is a night flight from Burlington
bridge along the lakeshore with close up view of the skydome (especially
when it's open and they are playing inside) and the CN tower whilst flying
over the airport. This is another lake front airport we mustn't lose.

Safe flying,
Ross

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
...
> "Ross Magnaldo" > writes:
>
> > And a third IFR newbie (got my rating at CYTZ)
>
> It's a fantastic airport -- too bad about the high-cost of tie-downs
> for aircraft based there (around CAD 600.00/month, isn't it?). Of
> course, CAD 20.00/night isn't so bad when you're just visiting for a
> couple of days, especially since they waive the first night with a
> fuel purchase.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David

[David Megginson]

"Ross Magnaldo" > writes:

> One of my best routes for "new" passengers is a night flight from
> Burlington bridge along the lakeshore with close up view of the
> skydome (especially when it's open and they are playing inside) and
> the CN tower whilst flying over the airport. This is another lake
> front airport we mustn't lose.

I think it's in pretty good shape. It has survived another attack
from the Island residents (those selfless citizens who get to live on
city property virtually rent-free and complain about everything as a
result) and an attack from the federal government, and now they're
actually planning to expand service and build the new bridge.

Even more importantly, though, our new premier-designate is from
Ottawa, and Ottawa has direct scheduled air service to CYTZ, so I
imagine that he and/or his family and staff will be flying through the
airport at least a couple of times every week (why fight the traffic
out to CYYZ?). I've noticed that the CBC reporters and staff seem to
use the airport quite a bit for Ottawa-Toronto flights as well.


All the best,


David