Requirement to fly departure procedures

[[email protected]]

I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:

"(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
for that airport by the FAA."

So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"

Stan

[Roy Smith]

> wrote:
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure?

Depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air?

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>
> Stan

That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.

[Bob Gardner]

The regulations are probably the worst place to look for answers to
procedural questions. Try reading AIM 5-2-6 in its entirety. That "immediate
turn" should be no lower than 400' agl. Second, you are forgoing the
obstacle protection afforded by the DP. Not real wise IMHO.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message
...
> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>
> Stan

[Windecks]

In my Jepp plate binder, in addition to the published DPs, there are
obstacle departure procedures for every airport with an approach, including
those without the traditional DPs.

Here's an example of an obstacle DP for Red Bluff, CA (KRBL) which does not
have a published DP:

"Rwy 15, climb direct RBL VOR. Rwy 33, climbing right turn direct RBL VOR.
All aircraft departing RBL R-091 clockwise to RBL R-200 climb on course.
All others climb in RBL VOR holding pattern (hold south, right turns, 341
degree inbound) to depart RBL at or above: RBL R-021 clockwise to RBL R-060
4500', RBL R-061 clockwise to RBL R-090 2100', RBL R-201 clockwise to RBL
R-270 4000', RBL R-271 clockwise to R-020 2400'.

Some are much briefer, and others more complicated.

My old CFII turned me on to these, and said they are also in the NACO TERPS
books somewhere, but being a Jepp-ster, I've never seen one. The verbiage
sure sounds FAA-ish though. From a regulatory standpoint, I've never seen
the obstacle DPs referenced. I wonder if they count towards that 'any
departure procedures' you saw in 91.129

If launching IFR, even with terrain data in the cockpit on a good weather
day, I'm going to follow the obstacle DP, especially at an unfamiliar
airport.


> wrote in message
...
> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>
> Stan

[Michael]

wrote
> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"

You are ignoring 91.129(b)
(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this
section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
flight, as appropriate.

Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.

Michael

Please do not send email replies to this posting. They are checked
only sporadically, and are filtered heavily by Hotmail. If you need
to email me, the correct address is crw69dog and the domain name is
this old airplane dot com, but remove the numbers and format the
address in the usual way.

[[email protected]]

Bingo, Michael, that explains it. thanks
Stan

On 7 Oct 2003 16:22:41 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

wrote
>> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
>> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
>> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
>> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>>
>> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
>> airport except in compliance with the following:
>> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
>> for that airport by the FAA."
>>
>> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
>> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>
>You are ignoring 91.129(b)
>(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this
>section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
>facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
>authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
>flight, as appropriate.
>
>Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
>deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.
>
>Michael
>
>Please do not send email replies to this posting. They are checked
>only sporadically, and are filtered heavily by Hotmail. If you need
>to email me, the correct address is crw69dog and the domain name is
>this old airplane dot com, but remove the numbers and format the
>address in the usual way.

[[email protected]]

OK, I see what you mean, and I'll take your word for it. But the FAR
does state "departure procedure", and the ifr departure procedure
would thus seem to be included as a "departure procedure". The FAR
should be re worded!

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:39:38 GMT, wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>
>> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
>> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
>> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
>> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>>
>> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
>> airport except in compliance with the following:
>> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
>> for that airport by the FAA."
>>
>> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
>> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>>
>> Stan
>
>That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
>abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.
>

[[email protected]]

Well, I just wanted to ensure I wasn't breaking any FAR, so naturally
I looked in the FARs. The departure procedure can take you miles out
of your way, so yes, I'll forgo the obstacle protection when I can
clearly manoeuvre on a good weather day
Stan

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 20:46:10 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>The regulations are probably the worst place to look for answers to
>procedural questions. Try reading AIM 5-2-6 in its entirety. That "immediate
>turn" should be no lower than 400' agl. Second, you are forgoing the
>obstacle protection afforded by the DP. Not real wise IMHO.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
> wrote in message
...
>> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
>> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
>> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
>> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>>
>> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
>> airport except in compliance with the following:
>> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
>> for that airport by the FAA."
>>
>> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
>> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>>
>> Stan
>

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> OK, I see what you mean, and I'll take your word for it. But the FAR
> does state "departure procedure", and the ifr departure procedure
> would thus seem to be included as a "departure procedure". The FAR
> should be re worded!

Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91, and it applies only to
departures at airports with operating control towers. It's basically a noise
rule.

As to the regulation not making that clear, some of those regs are written
without regard to another meaning for a term. Plus, there is a legal
interpretation that muddies it even further.

[[email protected]]

Well, its in Subpart B Flight Rules. I presumed that must mean ifr
too. Also, 91.117 Aircraft speed is in same subpart. If it didn't
apply to ifr, then 250 kts below 10, 000 feet wouldnt either, no?
Stan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:


>
>Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91.....

[John Clonts]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> wrote
> > I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> > the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> > procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> > 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
> >
> > "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> > airport except in compliance with the following:
> > (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> > for that airport by the FAA."
> >
> > So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> > procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>
> You are ignoring 91.129(b)
> (b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this
> section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
> facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
> authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
> flight, as appropriate.
>
> Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
> deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.
>
> Michael


What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance with
a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the pilot...".
Where does that fit into this?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Newps]

John Clonts wrote:


>
> What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
> which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
> quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance with
> a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the pilot...".
> Where does that fit into this?

It is at your discretion. The original poster asked if he had to fly a
DP on a good weather day when ATC says preoceed direct and the DP goes
out of the way. The answer is go direct. Terrain clearance is a nonfactor.

[Hilton]

pstanley55 wrote:
> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"

I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".

Hilton

[[email protected]]

Hilton wrote:

> I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
> can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
> my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
> when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
> clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
> required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
> maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".
>
> Hilton

That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
higher.

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> Well, its in Subpart B Flight Rules. I presumed that must mean ifr
> too. Also, 91.117 Aircraft speed is in same subpart. If it didn't
> apply to ifr, then 250 kts below 10, 000 feet wouldnt either, no?
> Stan
>
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:
>
> >
> >Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91.....

"Departure Procedure" has a specific meaning for IFR operations. Speed
limit requirements do not.

[[email protected]]

I sent the previous post without including the following: If your
reading is correct then a student pilot would have to fly the IFR
departure procedure departing a Class D airport since it doesn't say
anything about pertaining just to IFR operations. ;-)

[Fred E. Pate]

wrote:

>
>That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
>their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
>higher.
>

I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).

But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation. Then ATC can clear you if they have no traffic conflicts. However you still have to remain more than 1000 ft above flatlands or 2000 ft above mountains--including the antenna. So, by doing this you might still be in violation of the FARs, but I doubt anyone cares.

[[email protected]]

Yes, now I see how to interpret the FAR. 129, besides stating
pilot must comply with any departure procedure, also in the next
sentence states applicable distance from clouds criteria need to be
followed. Clearly they are refering to vfr then.

Which brings up an interesting question. I use jepps, and perusing
through many airports (Mass for eg, Bedford, Boston, Hyannis,
Nantucket, lawrence, beverly, etc) I don't see *ANY* FAA departure
procedures (other than ifr).

Should I be perusing some other sources?
Where does one find departure procedures listed?

thanks, Stan


On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 00:13:33 GMT, wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>
>> OK, I see what you mean, and I'll take your word for it. But the FAR
>> does state "departure procedure", and the ifr departure procedure
>> would thus seem to be included as a "departure procedure". The FAR
>> should be re worded!
>
>Well, that is not in the IFR section of Part 91, and it applies only to
>departures at airports with operating control towers. It's basically a noise
>rule.
>
>As to the regulation not making that clear, some of those regs are written
>without regard to another meaning for a term. Plus, there is a legal
>interpretation that muddies it even further.

[[email protected]]

OK, you're right
Stan

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:52:17 GMT, wrote:

>
>
>I sent the previous post without including the following: If your
>reading is correct then a student pilot would have to fly the IFR
>departure procedure departing a Class D airport since it doesn't say
>anything about pertaining just to IFR operations. ;-)

[Robert Moore]

wrote
> Should I be perusing some other sources?
> Where does one find departure procedures listed?

Usually on the bulletin board in the FBO.

Bob Moore

[[email protected]]

wrote:

>
>
> Which brings up an interesting question. I use jepps, and perusing
> through many airports (Mass for eg, Bedford, Boston, Hyannis,
> Nantucket, lawrence, beverly, etc) I don't see *ANY* FAA departure
> procedures (other than ifr).
>
> Should I be perusing some other sources?
> Where does one find departure procedures listed?
>
> thanks, Stan
>
>

They are local in nature. Sometimes they are on a sign near the runway, sometimes
in the FBO. Often, there aren't any.

[[email protected]]

And these are FAA departure procedures? No where else available? By
the time I read the bulletin board, I've already landed!
Stan

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 13:41:44 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

wrote
>> Should I be perusing some other sources?
>> Where does one find departure procedures listed?
>
>Usually on the bulletin board in the FBO.
>
>Bob Moore

[[email protected]]

Check the section in the controller's handbook about IFR altitude assignments. They must either be published or comply with 91.177.

Any provisions to the contrary would have to have a VFR restriction, which is not an IFR altitude assignment.

"Fred E. Pate" wrote:

> wrote:
>
> >
> >That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
> >their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
> >higher.
> >
>
> I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).
>
> But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation. Then ATC can clear you if they have no traffic conflicts. However you still have to remain more than 1000 ft above flatlands or 2000 ft above mountains--including the antenna. So, by doing this you might still be in violation of the FARs, but I doubt anyone cares.

[Robert Moore]

wrote

> And these are FAA departure procedures? No where else
> available? By the time I read the bulletin board, I've already
> landed! Stan

Yep!..I don't think that "departure procedures" are applicable
to "approach and landing". :-)

Bob

[Newps]

Fred E. Pate wrote:
> wrote:
>
>
>>That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
>>their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
>>higher.
>>
>
>
> I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).

Not unless you are taking off and climbing.


>
> But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation.

Yes, that's either a VFR climb to a good altitude or you're on a VFR on
Top clearance.


Then ATC can clear you if they have no traffic conflicts.

You will not get a clearance below the MVA or MEA.

[John Clonts]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:glmhb.76878$%h1.66094@sccrnsc02...
>
>
> Fred E. Pate wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an
area where
> >>their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their
MVA, or
> >>higher.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the
MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).
>
> Not unless you are taking off and climbing.
>
>
> >
> > But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation.
>
> Yes, that's either a VFR climb to a good altitude or you're on a VFR on
> Top clearance.
>
>
> Then ATC can clear you if they have no traffic conflicts.
>
> You will not get a clearance below the MVA or MEA.
>

Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[[email protected]]

And these are FAA departure procedures? But not officially published
anywhere? Sort of makes it hard to comply with the FAR's on them then
Stan


On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 15:18:33 GMT, in rec.aviation.ifr you wrote:

>> Should I be perusing some other sources?
>> Where does one find departure procedures listed?
>>

>They are local in nature. Sometimes they are on a sign near the runway, sometimes
>in the FBO. Often, there aren't any.

[Newps]

John Clonts wrote:

> Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?

We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
either.

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> And these are FAA departure procedures? But not officially published
> anywhere? Sort of makes it hard to comply with the FAR's on them then
> Stan

They are established by the airport, not the FAA. They are not regulatory, but
compliance with them is because of the reg you cite. To cut to the chase, the FAA is
on the hook at a Class D airport because they exercise local air traffic control there.
Thus, by writing that reg that way they pass the buck to the pilot so they can have
peace with the airport management. At non-tower airports the feds stay out of the
fray.

It's all about noise.

Like Captain Moore says, you are already at the airport or you wouldn't need to know
about them for that airport. In the case of airlines, they attempt to document them in
their flight operations policy manuals. Generally, at busy airports, the noise
abatement departure is copatible with the ATC departure procedures (the IFR DPs that
are actually used).

At "Podunk" airports that do do have ATC DPs but have an obstacle DP sometimes there
can be a conflict. In that case, if the weather permits you fly the noise abatement DP
then transition to the obstacle DP. If the weather won't permit that you disregard the
noise DP and fly the obstacle DP. Generally, they understand that weather can create
an exception.

[[email protected]]

Newps wrote:

> Fred E. Pate wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
> >>their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
> >>higher.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).
>
> Not unless you are taking off and climbing.

Or, on a missed approach. But, the context was about reaching a level altitude.

[[email protected]]

John Clonts wrote:

> Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
>

Won't say it's never done, but you are not suppose to operate on an IFR flight
plan, with a VFR on top restriction, below the applicable minimum instrument
altitude. That is an ATC policy and is set forth in the AIM.

When IFR/VFR on top, you are bound by both IFR and VFR regulations.

[[email protected]]

Newps wrote:

> John Clonts wrote:
>
> > Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
>
> We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
> an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
> altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
> me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
> it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
> goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
> either.

Here’s what the policy is as set forth in AIM 4-4-7:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain
VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.
2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14
CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).
3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight;
i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications,
course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

Here’s what the PCG says about it in the 7110.65:

VFR-ON-TOP - ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR
conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in FAR and as
restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with
the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR
altitudes specified in FAR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve
controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and
Class C airspace or TRSA's as required by FAAO 7110.65.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
> the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
> procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
> 91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:
>
> "(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
> airport except in compliance with the following:
> (1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
> for that airport by the FAA."
>
> So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
> procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"
>

I assume you meant "good weather day". Remember that FAR 91.129(a) states,
"Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section." If ATC clears you direct to a fix, you have been "otherwise
authorized or required".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
> abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.
>

It says "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA".
That doesn't sound local to me.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> And these are FAA departure procedures? No where else available? By
> the time I read the bulletin board, I've already landed!
>

Yes, but departure procedures shouldn't be much of a concern to arriving
aircraft.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> They are established by the airport, not the FAA.
>

The regulation states, "Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures
established for that airport by the FAA."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
>
> You are ignoring 91.129(b)
> (b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of thisFAR
91.129
> section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
> facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
> authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
> flight, as appropriate.
>
> Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
> deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.
>

You're ignoring FAR 91.129(a):
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127.
For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for
which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any
other airport within the Class D airspace area.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
> which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
> quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance
> with a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the
pilot...".
> Where does that fit into this?
>

If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance,
compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's prerogative. I'd advise the
tower of your intentions though, it could be rather unexpected on a good
weather day.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Fred E. Pate" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the
> MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).
>

In some situations they can; radar approaches, departures and missed
approaches where ATC can separate from obstructions.


>
> But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation.
>

Yes, but the altitude in the clearance must be at or above the MVA.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area
where
> their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their
MVA, or
> higher.
>

Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
request it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:glmhb.76878$%h1.66094@sccrnsc02...
>
> Not unless you are taking off and climbing.
>

ATC can clear below the MVA on radar approaches.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
>

In a straight VFR-on-Top clearance ATC won't mention altitude at all, it's
just "Maintain VFR-on-Top." If the altitude must be restricted to ensure
separation with another IFR aircraft before VFR-on-Top is reached, that
altitude must be at or above the MEA/MIA. As a pilot it's your
responsibility to choose an altitude that complies with FARs 91.159 and
91.177.

[Scott Skylane]

wrote:
>
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>John Clonts wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
>>
>>We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
>>an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
>>altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
>>me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
>>it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
>>goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
>>either.
>
>
> Here’s what the policy is as set forth in AIM 4-4-7:
>
> e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain
> VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
> 1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
> 91.159.
/snip/

Unless, of course, you qualify under Part 121.657:

(d) Day over-the-top operations below minimum en route altitudes. A
person may conduct day over-the-top operations in an airplane at flight
altitudes lower than the minimum en route IFR altitudes if --

(1) The operation is conducted at least 1,000 feet above the top of
lower broken or overcast cloud cover;

(2) The top of the lower cloud cover is generally uniform and level;

(3) Flight visibility is at least five miles; and

(4) The base of any higher broken or overcast cloud cover is generally
uniform and level and is at least 1,000 feet above the minimum en route
IFR altitude for that route segment.


Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Won't say it's never done, but you are not suppose to operate on an IFR
> flight plan, with a VFR on top restriction, below the applicable minimum
> instrument altitude. That is an ATC policy and is set forth in the AIM.
>

It's also a regulation, which is all that is binding on the pilot.

[Scott Skylane]

KP wrote:
> John Clonts wrote in message ...
>
>>Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
>
>
> The altitude to maintain assigned in the IFR clearance is "VFR-On-Top. A
> specific altitude is not issued.
>
> While maintaining VFR-On-Top it's up to you to comply with 14 CFR Section
> 91.159(a)
/snip/

See Part 121.657(d), for those who qualify.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
> > abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.
> >
>
> It says "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA".
> That doesn't sound local to me.

If you can find them in a national charting publication, let us know. They
are the product of the airport authority and blessed by the region for that
airport.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> If you can find them in a national charting publication, let us know.
They
> are the product of the airport authority and blessed by the region for
that
> airport.
>

You can find departure procedures in U.S. Terminal Procedures publications.
These procedures are the product of the FAA, not the airport authority.

[Scott Skylane]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area
>
> where
>
>>their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their
>
> MVA, or
>
>>higher.
>>
>
>
> Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
> request it?
>
>
Simple, there may be a crossing restriction that you can not meet.
Rather than take vectors around the offending terrain, you request a
"VFR climb through x000 feet(MVA), climb and maintain x000 ft.(cruising)"

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Robert Moore]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

> > wrote
>> If you can find them in a national charting publication, let us
>> know. They are the product of the airport authority and blessed
>> by the region for that airport.
>>
>
> You can find departure procedures in U.S. Terminal Procedures
> publications. These procedures are the product of the FAA, not
> the airport authority.

Perhaps you haven't seen the departure procedures to which Mr.
Airperson and I have made reference.

Bob Moore

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Scott Skylane" > wrote in message
...
>
> Simple, there may be a crossing restriction that you can not meet.
> Rather than take vectors around the offending terrain, you request a
> "VFR climb through x000 feet(MVA), climb and maintain x000 ft.(cruising)"
>

There can be no crossing restriction below the MVA.

[Kris Kortokrax]

> wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
> > > abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.
> > >
> >
> > It says "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA".
> > That doesn't sound local to me.
>
> If you can find them in a national charting publication, let us know.
They
> are the product of the airport authority and blessed by the region for
that
> airport.
>

Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
follows:

Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule

§ 93.119 Aircraft operations.
Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off from
the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
practicable after takeoff.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------

A legal opinion on the initial question follows:

November 30, 1993
Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:

This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an
interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).

Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft
taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he
complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route
from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.

The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set
forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
(TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed
to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.

In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure
procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR
departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to
adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.

Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must
operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of
whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under
IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an
Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an
amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under
Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the
applicable ATC clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
or under IMC.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact
Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------


Following is a legal opinion regarding locally defined arrival & departure
procedures.:

Interpretation of FAR Section 91.89(a)(3)

John B. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel, AGC-200

ASW-7.4

This is in response to your memo of August 22, 1983, requesting an
Interpretation of FAR Section 91.89(a)(3). Specifically, you describe an
airport that to privately owned and used, without an operating control tower
and outside any control zone. It has one runway, R 17-35, and serves gliders
and airplanes. The owner/manager has issued a diagram depicting a left-hand
traffic pattern for the airport. He announced that he intended everyone to
use a left-hand pattern, including both landing and departing aircraft. GADO
personnel were at an airport safety meeting at which the diagram was handed
out, but they did not comment on the traffic pattern. Since then, an
airplane towing a glider has been reported making close-in, right-hand
departures from the airport. You ask whether this operation is in violation
of the FAR, and if not, you ask under what circumstances Section 91.89(a)(3)
could be cited.
As you know, Section 91.89(a)(3) provides that each person operating an
aircraft to or from an airport without an operating control tower shall, in
the case of an aircraft departing the airport, comply with any FAA traffic
pattern from that airport,
In your example, it does not appear that there is any form of FAA traffic
pattern for departing aircraft. The pattern announced by the owner did not
receive FAA approval, and there is so FAR that specifically describes
patterns for departing aircraft at such an airport. Therefore, it does not
appear that the pilot violated Section 91.89(a)(3). The only possible FAR
violation that we have identified to Section 91.9. This would, of course,
depend on whether on any given flight the pilot operated the aircraft in a
careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of
another. The facts as you have described them do not suggest such a finding.

Kris

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> You can find departure procedures in U.S. Terminal Procedures publications.
> These procedures are the product of the FAA, not the airport authority.

The only departure procedures in the U.S. Terminal Procedures are IFR Obstacle
and IFR ATC DPs. We're talking of noise abatement departure procedures here.

[[email protected]]

Kris Kortokrax wrote:

>
>
> Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
> follows:
>
> Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
> Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule

Those are special air traffic rules. That is different than the local noise
abatement departures at many Class D airports that have no Part 93 rules.

>
>
> § 93.119 Aircraft operations.
> Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
> Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
> execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
> traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off from
> the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
> practicable after takeoff.
>

Thoes Part 93 procedure are established for both arrivals and epartures, which
is different that the Class D departure reference in Part 91.

>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------
>
> A legal opinion on the initial question follows:
>
> November 30, 1993
> Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:
>
> This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an
> interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
> (FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).
>
> Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft
> taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he
> complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the
> Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
> departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route
> from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.
>
> The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set
> forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
> (TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed
> to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.
>
> In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure
> procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR
> departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to
> adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.
>
> Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must
> operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of
> whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under
> IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
> a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
> Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
> departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
> remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.
>
> Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an
> Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an
> amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under
> Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the
> applicable ATC clearance.
>
> Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
> departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
> or under IMC.
>
> If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact
> Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Donald P. Byrne
> Assistant Chief Counsel
> Regulations Division

That letter tells us if you're not for hire, you don't have to follow any
published IFR obstacle DP unless it's included in your clearance. That extends
to all airports, not just Class D airports, and it's different than the noise
abatement departure procedure referenced in Part 91.

[[email protected]]

Scott Skylane wrote:

> wrote:
> >
> > Newps wrote:
> >
> >
> >>John Clonts wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?
> >>
> >>We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
> >>an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
> >>altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
> >>me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
> >>it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
> >>goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
> >>either.
> >
> >
> > Here’s what the policy is as set forth in AIM 4-4-7:
> >
> > e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain
> > VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
> > 1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
> > 91.159.
> /snip/
>
> Unless, of course, you qualify under Part 121.657:
>
> (d) Day over-the-top operations below minimum en route altitudes. A
> person may conduct day over-the-top operations in an airplane at flight
> altitudes lower than the minimum en route IFR altitudes if --
>
> (1) The operation is conducted at least 1,000 feet above the top of
> lower broken or overcast cloud cover;
>
> (2) The top of the lower cloud cover is generally uniform and level;
>
> (3) Flight visibility is at least five miles; and
>
> (4) The base of any higher broken or overcast cloud cover is generally
> uniform and level and is at least 1,000 feet above the minimum en route
> IFR altitude for that route segment.
>
> Happy Flying!
> Scott Skylane

Not too many of us get to use that provision. Plus, as I recall, the specific
route for such operations has to be in the 121 operator's approved operations
specifications.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Won't say it's never done, but you are not suppose to operate on an IFR
> > flight plan, with a VFR on top restriction, below the applicable minimum
> > instrument altitude. That is an ATC policy and is set forth in the AIM.
> >
>
> It's also a regulation, which is all that is binding on the pilot.

The only regulation I know about in that regard is that I have to fly at a VFR
altitude.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> news:glmhb.76878$%h1.66094@sccrnsc02...
> >
> > Not unless you are taking off and climbing.
> >
>
> ATC can clear below the MVA on radar approaches.

Oh, I didn't know that! In any case, that slice of airspace is a Part
97 IAP, not a MVA chart. The MVA chart is cited in the ASR or PAR Part
97 procedure as applicable to the initial approach segment(s) only.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area
> where
> > their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their
> MVA, or
> > higher.
> >
>
> Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
> request it?

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

[Hilton]

wrote:
> > Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
> > request it?
>
> Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.

Hilton

[[email protected]]

Hilton wrote:

> wrote:
> > > Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
> > > request it?
> >
> > Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.
>
> The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.
>
> Hilton

If I recall correctly what you said is that they cleared you to climb VFR to
maintain an altitude below MVA. Is that what you said before?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 6...
>
> Perhaps you haven't seen the departure procedures to which Mr.
> Airperson and I have made reference.
>

I have. How did you conclude that "any departure procedures established for
that airport by the FAA" refers only to noise abatement procedures posted on
the FBO's bulletin board?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> The only regulation I know about in that regard is that I have to fly at a
> VFR altitude.
>

VFR-on-Top relieves the pilot of the requirement to maintain an altitude
assigned by ATC found in FAR 91.179(a), but it does not relieve him
of the minimum altitude requirements of FAR 91.177(a). While
operating VFR-on-Top the pilot must still maintain the minimum altitude
applicable to his assigned route. If operating on airways, that would be
the MEA or MOCA. If operating off-airways, the pilot would have to
determine the
minimum altitude that complies with FAR 91.177(a).


Sec. 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.

(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary
for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below--

(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in Parts 95 and 97 of
this chapter; or

(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts--

(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous
area in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within
a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or

(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest
obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to
be flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or
route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but
not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned
(based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).


Sec. 91.179 IFR cruising altitude or flight level.

(a) In controlled airspace. Each person operating an aircraft under IFR
in level cruising flight in controlled airspace shall maintain the altitude
or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC. However, if the ATC clearance
assigns "VFR conditions on-top," that person shall maintain an altitude or
flight level as prescribed by Sec. 91.159.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Oh, I didn't know that!
>

Now you do.


>
> In any case, that slice of airspace is a Part
> 97 IAP, not a MVA chart. The MVA chart is cited in the ASR or PAR Part
> 97 procedure as applicable to the initial approach segment(s) only.
>

So what? Below the MVA is below the MVA.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.
>

It was you that wrote; "That's all good except they can't clear you to
maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA,
or higher." So, again, why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the
MVA? Why would you request it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.
>

What works every time?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> The only departure procedures in the U.S. Terminal Procedures are IFR
> Obstacle and IFR ATC DPs. We're talking of noise abatement departure
> procedures here.
>

Actually, we're talking about FAR 91.129(g):

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for
that airport by the FAA.

(2) Unless otherwise required by the prescribed departure procedure for
that airport or the applicable distance from clouds criteria, each pilot of
a turbine-powered airplane and each pilot of a large airplane must climb to
an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface as rapidly as practicable.



It says "any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA."
"Any" means "one, some, every, or all without specification", and obstacle
departure procedures in the TPP are obviously departure procedures
established by the FAA. So how do you conclude that FAR 91.129(g) is
referring only to noise abatement procedures? If FAR 91.129(g) was meant to
cover noise abatement, what is the purpose of FAR 91.129(h)?

§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(h) Noise abatement. Where a formal runway use program has been
established by the FAA, each pilot of a large or turbine-powered airplane
assigned a noise abatement runway by ATC must use that runway. However,
consistent with the final authority of the pilot in command concerning the
safe operation of the aircraft as prescribed in § 91.3(a), ATC may assign a
different runway if requested by the pilot in the interest of safety.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Those are special air traffic rules. That is different than the local
> noise abatement departures at many Class D airports that have no Part 93
rules.
>

So what makes you think that "any departure procedures established for that
airport by the FAA" refers to local noise abatement procedures?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Kris Kortokrax" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
> follows:
>
> Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
> Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule
>
> § 93.119 Aircraft operations.
> Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
> Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
> execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
> traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off
> from the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
> practicable after takeoff.
>

True enough, but if FAR 91.129(g) was written with Part 93 in mind it would
be redundant, as it is already covered by FAR 91.127(b) and FAR 91.129(a)
requires compliance with FARs 91.126 and 91.127.

[Hilton]

Airperson wrote:
>
>
> Hilton wrote:
>
> > wrote:
> > > > Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would
you
> > > > request it?
> > >
> > > Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.
> >
> > The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every
time.
> >
> > Hilton
>
> If I recall correctly what you said is that they cleared you to climb VFR
to
> maintain an altitude below MVA. Is that what you said before?

No. I never mentioned VFR. This is what I said:

==================
I use "Norcal Departure, Cherokee 123, requesting a turn to heading 100, we
can maintain our own terrain seperation." Works everytime - they get me on
my way, and I get out of their airspace quicker. This is especially useful
when flying to Monterey and both San Jose and Monterey are socked in, but
clear between. ATC gives you "climb and maintain 7000" when only 3000' is
required (if you know where the tower is). In this case I say "I'd like to
maintain 4000' - I'll maintain our own terrain seperation".
==================

[Hilton]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
> Hilton wrote:
> >
> > The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every
time.
> >
>
> What works every time?

ATC assigns 7000' heading over the hill to Monterey (MRY) from Reid-Hillview
(RHV). I ask for 4000' (for example) adding "I can maintain my own terrain
separation." I then get 4000' or so. BTW: I have no idea what the MVA is
there.

In a 172, getting up to 7000' for 10 minutes of flying is not optimal.

Hilton

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> ATC assigns 7000' heading over the hill to Monterey (MRY) from
Reid-Hillview
> (RHV). I ask for 4000' (for example) adding "I can maintain my own
terrain
> separation." I then get 4000' or so. BTW: I have no idea what the MVA is
> there.
>

How high is the hill?

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.
> >
>
> It was you that wrote; "That's all good except they can't clear you to
> maintain 4,000' in an area where
> their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA,
> or higher." So, again, why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the
> MVA? Why would you request it?

Did it all the time departing ABQ in order to climb close to, and parallel to
mountainous terrain, on a nice, clear day. ABQ departure would not vector below
the MVA because of the nature of the terrain and its proximity. It was either
request the VFR climb or fly a (then) SID that went out of the way.

[[email protected]]

Hilton wrote:

> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> >
> > Hilton wrote:
> > >
> > > The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every
> time.
> > >
> >
> > What works every time?
>
> ATC assigns 7000' heading over the hill to Monterey (MRY) from Reid-Hillview
> (RHV). I ask for 4000' (for example) adding "I can maintain my own terrain
> separation." I then get 4000' or so. BTW: I have no idea what the MVA is
> there.
>
> In a 172, getting up to 7000' for 10 minutes of flying is not optimal.
>
> Hilton

That's one hauling 172 since it's 45 miles between those two airports.

[Hilton]

Airperson wrote:
> Hilton wrote:
> > In a 172, getting up to 7000' for 10 minutes of flying is not optimal.

> That's one hauling 172 since it's 45 miles between those two airports.

At 7000' for 10 minutes, not total flying time. ATC climbs you to 7000',
then as you pass the hill, they give you 2000' or 3000'.

Hilton

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Did it all the time departing ABQ in order to climb close to, and parallel
> to mountainous terrain, on a nice, clear day. ABQ departure would not
vector
> below the MVA because of the nature of the terrain and its proximity. It
was
> either request the VFR climb or fly a (then) SID that went out of the way.
>

You don't need vectors or a SID or a VFR climb on a nice, clear day for
terrain avoidance, just an altitude at or above the MVA.

[Newps]

> > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Did it all the time departing ABQ in order to climb close to, and parallel
>>to mountainous terrain, on a nice, clear day. ABQ departure would not
>
> vector
>
>>below the MVA because of the nature of the terrain and its proximity. It
>
> was
>
>>either request the VFR climb or fly a (then) SID that went out of the way.

SLC TRACON does the same thing. It is in a bowl of mountains. You
either fly the SID or ask for a VFR climb and get on course quicker.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Did it all the time departing ABQ in order to climb close to, and parallel
> > to mountainous terrain, on a nice, clear day. ABQ departure would not
> vector
> > below the MVA because of the nature of the terrain and its proximity. It
> was
> > either request the VFR climb or fly a (then) SID that went out of the way.
> >
>
> You don't need vectors or a SID or a VFR climb on a nice, clear day for
> terrain avoidance, just an altitude at or above the MVA.

True. Nonetheless, our ops specs required that we always be on an IFR flight
plan. So, regardless of the weather, ABQ TRANCON would assign the SID and our
compliance with it was mandatory, even on a nice, clear day, unless we requested
a VFR climb to at least MVA.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> True. Nonetheless, our ops specs required that we always be on an IFR
> flight plan. So, regardless of the weather, ABQ TRANCON would assign
> the SID and our compliance with it was mandatory, even on a nice, clear
day,
> unless we requested a VFR climb to at least MVA.
>

Requesting a VFR climb does nothing for you with regard to obstacle
avoidance.