Any Embry Riddle Grads out there?

[Carl Orton]

My son has been accepted at Embry Riddle (and other aviation-related
universities). We've done the campus tour, and were impressed.

For their piloting program, with tuition, room & board, and estimated flight
costs, we're looking at $42K / year.

Regardless of how much the Bank of Dad, scholarships, work, etc., kick in,
we're looking at financing a chunk o' change if he does end up going there.

Embry seems to take a very light approach to it, relating stories on how
frequently their graduates have outstanding student loans of over $120,000.
(!)

So, my question to you is: If you graduated from ERAU, did you graduate with
hefty loans? Was this a bigger burden than you thought when you first signed
up for them? Was the debt worthwhile (as in, because the ERAU degree took
you further)?

I've gotten many good responses that indicated it's more the caliber of the
man than the degree, get the flying hours elsewhere, etc., but really
haven't seen anyone addressing the financial impact.

Thanks for any insight;
Carl

[Flyingmonk]

Go check at the unemployment line. :^) Sorry, couldn't resist...

The Monk

[john smith]

My brother's step-son graduated from ER in Arizona.
He was financed through USAF ROTC scholarship.
He was not in the flight program.
Got his degree in computer science.
Went on to serve twelve years in the Air Force.
Flew Lear C21's flying generals around the world.
Went on to be a C17 instructor pilot before separating this past summer.
He now is flying for NetJets.

[Dudley Henriques]

I'm retired, and my knowledge of ER is way back I'm afraid; all the way to
Jack Hunt, but nothing current.
The school is one of the finest in the world for getting an aviation
education.
I can't speak to the cost, but I will tell you that graduating from a school
like ER is just getting your foot in the door in today's world of
professional flying.
The market for the good paying left seat jobs is extremely tight, and
recovering the cost in salary can be a daunting task.
Even if you find a graduate who will sing the praises of going this route,
you are still faced with the individual quals required by potential
employers and how all that will equate with any specific graduate vs
employment specs.
Corporate pilot positions have become more and more directed toward those
with both pilot and maintenance certification through the years. Pilots
coming out of the military with heavy experience are always a factor in this
market.
The airlines right now might be a no show. This should be considered.
I hate to nail you with such a negative outlook, and I'm sure you already
have considered much of this yourself.
I know one family who has their daughter enrolled at Riddle now. She's in
both a flying and maintenance fast track. She's pointed at the FAA for
employment.
All I've told you being considered, also consider the fact that I've been
away from things now (hands on so to speak) for quite a while, and the
situation is changing constantly.
Best of luck to you
Dudley Henriques

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> My son has been accepted at Embry Riddle (and other aviation-related
> universities). We've done the campus tour, and were impressed.
>
> For their piloting program, with tuition, room & board, and estimated
> flight costs, we're looking at $42K / year.
>
> Regardless of how much the Bank of Dad, scholarships, work, etc., kick in,
> we're looking at financing a chunk o' change if he does end up going
> there.
>
> Embry seems to take a very light approach to it, relating stories on how
> frequently their graduates have outstanding student loans of over
> $120,000. (!)
>
> So, my question to you is: If you graduated from ERAU, did you graduate
> with hefty loans? Was this a bigger burden than you thought when you first
> signed up for them? Was the debt worthwhile (as in, because the ERAU
> degree took you further)?
>
> I've gotten many good responses that indicated it's more the caliber of
> the man than the degree, get the flying hours elsewhere, etc., but really
> haven't seen anyone addressing the financial impact.
>
> Thanks for any insight;
> Carl
>

[Rachel]

I'm not an ERAU grad (went to one of the competing universities), but
know quite a few ERAU people. Pretty much what they've told me is that
they're going to be working off the debt for quite a few years. Some
are with the airlines, but most are flight instructing, living at home,
and pulling in around $15,000 a year. It really is a competitive
market, and I'm not sure that where you go to school makes much
difference. Having a bachelors degree is important, yes, but it doesn't
need to be in flying and it doesn't have to be from ERAU. So said one
of my graduate friends, who, if he had to do it over again, would have
majored in finance, lol.

My own personal opinion...$42,000 a year is ridiculous. My university
cost around $10,000 a year out of state for the maintenance program, and
I did my pilot ratings on my own at the local FBO. Came out with more
hours, more ratings, and more money left in the bank than the flight majors.

[Nathan Young]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:09:42 -0600, "Carl Orton" >
wrote:

>My son has been accepted at Embry Riddle (and other aviation-related
>universities). We've done the campus tour, and were impressed.
>
>For their piloting program, with tuition, room & board, and estimated flight
>costs, we're looking at $42K / year.
>
>Regardless of how much the Bank of Dad, scholarships, work, etc., kick in,
>we're looking at financing a chunk o' change if he does end up going there.
>
>Embry seems to take a very light approach to it, relating stories on how
>frequently their graduates have outstanding student loans of over $120,000.

Irrespective of the end goal, that is a staggering amount of debt for
your son to pay. Even with the low interest rates and tax deductions
available with most student loans, that is enough debt to strangle
your son's start in the real world (post graduation).

If he plans on being a pilot, the affects of the debt will be
amplified by the minimal pay that he can expect as he works his way up
through the flight instructor ranks and commuter ranks.

If those are really the numbers, it is my opinion that your son would
be better off going to the State college, paying a reasonable tuition,
getting a marketable degree, and conducting his flight lessons
independently of his degree work while he is there. Any way you cut
it, flying is not cheap, but this route would be much cheaper than the
figure you provided.

-Nathan

[[email protected]]

Realistically, your son will NEVER pay down that kind of debt, nor
should he. At today's low rates you just make the monthly payments
until you die. It's only then your student loan debt is discharged
anyway.

If you or he is dead set on ERAU, then talk with the Financial Aid
people to see what loan management company they use. Call them and
ask them what the monthly payments would be for subsidized and
unsubsidized loans totaling $120,000 at the current rates. The
combined monthly payment may be about $500/month. That's a real nice
car or personal airplane payment.

If'n it were me, I would tell my son to go to the State University and
pay the cheaper in-state tuition. Find a local FBO and a grey-haired
instructor and get the ratings there. Major in a degree that will
allow him to have a non-avaition related job/business if the air
carriers aren't hiring, he gets laid off, or he tires of crashpads and
long hours away from home.

My flight instructor was an ERAU graduate. He had about $150,000 in
school debt. He got a job out of school with a regional but was
quickly furloughed, hence the reason he was sitting right seat with me.
He got his degree in aviation management (or something like that),
which is not very cross-marketable. He was making $10-12/hr
instructing, with that massive debt and a wife and kid to support. How
he did it, i don't know.

[Rachel]

wrote:
<snip>
> If'n it were me, I would tell my son to go to the State University and
> pay the cheaper in-state tuition. Find a local FBO and a grey-haired
> instructor and get the ratings there.

Sorry, I have to make my standard disagreement that age does not make a
great instructor. My instructors were all under 30 and all but one did
a great job. I was 22 when I got my CFI, and while I have a lot to
learn, no one ever complained. Older does NOT always mean better and
it's a disservice to suggest that it does.
>
> My flight instructor was an ERAU graduate. He had about $150,000 in
> school debt. He got a job out of school with a regional but was
> quickly furloughed, hence the reason he was sitting right seat with me.
> He got his degree in aviation management (or something like that),
> which is not very cross-marketable. He was making $10-12/hr
> instructing, with that massive debt and a wife and kid to support. How
> he did it, i don't know.

Food stamps, according to the guy who did most of my instrument. He was
an ERAU Prescott grad.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Rachel" > wrote in message
. ..
> wrote:
> <snip>
>> If'n it were me, I would tell my son to go to the State University and
>> pay the cheaper in-state tuition. Find a local FBO and a grey-haired
>> instructor and get the ratings there.
>
> Sorry, I have to make my standard disagreement that age does not make a
> great instructor. My instructors were all under 30 and all but one did a
> great job. I was 22 when I got my CFI, and while I have a lot to learn,
> no one ever complained. Older does NOT always mean better and it's a
> disservice to suggest that it does.

Hi Rachel;

I agree totally that high time isn't necessarily an indicator of high
quality in a CFI, or a normal pilot for that matter. You'll find the
qualities that make a fine teacher in any age bracket, and as well find
these qualities lacking in the same wide range. Some CFI's are wonderful
teachers right out of the box, and some unfortunately go through entire
careers doing and teaching the same things wrong over and over again with
little change.
It's easy to spot the gray haired instructors who are good, as they are
still deeply motivated by teaching and are engaged in a constant self
improvement program that lasts from the day they become CFI's to the day
they quit flying.
About the post you have just answered;
I could be totally misreading the poster's intent that you are addressing,
but when I read the post I didn't come away with any negative reaction. To
me it simply read in a context that pointed toward a more "generic approach"
as opposed to seeking the more formal approach indicated by the higher
educational route we've been discussing.
I'm quite frankly wowed by that figure of 42 grand a year. That seems
extremely high to me, but having been one of those "gray haired
instructors", I have to admit I'm not that well up on present college fees.
Considering all the factors being discussed in this thread, I would be
leaning heavily toward a general college education dealing with a marketable
major for today's professional environment and going the flying route as an
additional effort; then playing the post graduation market to see what
develops.
Dudley Henriques

[George Patterson]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> I agree totally that high time isn't necessarily an indicator of high
> quality in a CFI, or a normal pilot for that matter. You'll find the
> qualities that make a fine teacher in any age bracket, and as well find
> these qualities lacking in the same wide range. Some CFI's are wonderful
> teachers right out of the box, and some unfortunately go through entire
> careers doing and teaching the same things wrong over and over again with
> little change.

You (and a few others) seem to be assuming that gray-haired instructors have
been instructing for decades. Many took up instructing quite recently, after
retiring from other careers which have nothing to do with piloting. A CFI's pay
is OK if you're drawing a nice pension from AT&T.

That doesn't necessarily make one a poor instructor, but don't assume that age
means lots of experience as a CFI.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

[Morgans]

"Nathan Young" > wrote

> If those are really the numbers, it is my opinion that your son would
> be better off going to the State college, paying a reasonable tuition,
> getting a marketable degree, and conducting his flight lessons
> independently of his degree work while he is there.

Add to that the fact that many colleges, even some community colleges have
flight degrees, or at least flight instructors and cheap flight rentals.
The instructors time is free, as part of the tuition.

It sounds to me like it would be hard to justify the cost of ER, in these
days and times.
--
Jim in NC

[Scott D]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:09:42 -0600, "Carl Orton" >
wrote:


>Thanks for any insight;
>Carl
>


Well, as others have responded, I am in the same frame of mind. I
have known several ERU graduates and 100% of them have made the same
comment "If I had to do it all over again, I would not have gone to
ERU" . ERU is a good school. Don't get me wrong. I actually have a
friend that is now instructing there at ERU in FL and he is wishing he
would have done it differently. Another part time instructor in my
area is now flying very little and is actually driving a dump truck
for a company here in town. Most of the jobs are about how many hours
(total, and type) you have, and (some) care that you have "a" degree.
A degree from ERU means very little. IMHO, save your money and get
him a good business degree at an in state university and pay for his
flying at a local flight school.

On a side note, without knowing what his goal is, ie: Corp or
Commercial, it actually might help him to get his license locally if
the corporate side is where he wants to focus on and that is the town
he would like to live in. People on the field will get to know him
and how he flies and when a position opens up, they are more prone to
go to someone local. Also, when he reaches the goal of CFI, the
flight school that he attended to get that CFI would more than likely
utilize him as a CFI. It tends to be hard for a CFI to come into a new
town and find a job flight instructing.


Scott Dedeker

[[email protected]]

Rachel, I did not say age made one a great instructor, nor a bad one.
It seems that you began instructing at a young age, and likely
encountered some age bias that still smarts. I think every young
professional has similar experiences.

By "grey-haired" I meant to imply an instructor who was both
experienced and older than the student in question. As you will
recall, the OP was inquiring about his 17/18 year old son.

*For me*, finding an experienced and older instructor served *me*
better than the instructor closer to my own age. Obviously you had a
different experience.


Rachel wrote:
> Sorry, I have to make my standard disagreement that age does not make a
> great instructor. My instructors were all under 30 and all but one did
> a great job. I was 22 when I got my CFI, and while I have a lot to
> learn, no one ever complained. Older does NOT always mean better and
> it's a disservice to suggest that it does.
> >

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

wrote:
> *For me*, finding an experienced and older instructor served *me*
> better than the instructor closer to my own age. Obviously you had a
> different experience.


I generally search out an ATP or multi-I if I can. Primary flying is one thing;
new instructors are fine for that. But at my advanced old age, I'd rather take
advice from someone with significant time.

I had an aircraft checkout earlier this year where a young whippersnapper was
offering me tips on how to survive a crash. We had two crashes between us.
However, both of them were mine. *I* know how to survive a crash (if it can be
done).



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Scott D wrote:
> On a side note, without knowing what his goal is, ie: Corp or
> Commercial, it actually might help him to get his license locally if
> the corporate side is where he wants to focus on and that is the town
> he would like to live in. People on the field will get to know him
> and how he flies and when a position opens up, they are more prone to
> go to someone local. Also, when he reaches the goal of CFI, the
> flight school that he attended to get that CFI would more than likely
> utilize him as a CFI. It tends to be hard for a CFI to come into a new
> town and find a job flight instructing.


I know guys who did exactly that and ended up with good corporate jobs. If you
hang around a field long enough, people get to know you and might think of you
when opportunities pop up. I have a good friend who was taken under the arm of
a retired USAF pilot who would take him along to sit right seat in a Cheyenne on
his business trips. He wasn't needed, but the seat was there and the colonel
was of a mind to bring somebody along. Then a left seat job for a local company
appeared and my friend was recommended for the spot, even though he was still
pretty young.

Now he's flying internationally in a Citation. Left seat.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Capt.Doug]

>"Carl Orton" wrote in message
> Regardless of how much the Bank of Dad, scholarships, work, etc., kick in,
> we're looking at financing a chunk o' change if he does end up going
there.
> Thanks for any insight;

What is his goal?
If he wants to be an airline pilot, ER is the way to go. If he wants to be
an aeronautical engineer, there isn't much difference from a good state
university.

D.

[Mike Schumann]

If he's got the grades, he should try to get into the best engineering
school he can get into. He can take flying lessons on the side. After he
gets out, he's got lots of options. No airline is going to hold a solid
engineering degree against him.

The one thing most people don't realize, is that many of the best schools
(the Ivy league in particular) also have by far the most financial aid
resources. If you can get into one of these schools, money is not a problem
if you have the need. That's not always the case with a state school.

Mike Schumann

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >"Carl Orton" wrote in message
>> Regardless of how much the Bank of Dad, scholarships, work, etc., kick
>> in,
>> we're looking at financing a chunk o' change if he does end up going
> there.
>> Thanks for any insight;
>
> What is his goal?
> If he wants to be an airline pilot, ER is the way to go. If he wants to be
> an aeronautical engineer, there isn't much difference from a good state
> university.
>
> D.
>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> If he's got the grades, he should try to get into the best engineering
> school he can get into. He can take flying lessons on the side. After he
> gets out, he's got lots of options. No airline is going to hold a solid
> engineering degree against him.

<SNIP>

Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have an
aviation degree program to boot.

Jay B

[Rachel]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>If he's got the grades, he should try to get into the best engineering
>>school he can get into. He can take flying lessons on the side. After he
>>gets out, he's got lots of options. No airline is going to hold a solid
>>engineering degree against him.
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have an
> aviation degree program to boot.
>
> Jay B

Purdue doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves in this whole aviation
thing. In my not so humble opinion, of course. :-)

Only problem is the weather isn't as nearly as good as ERAU... :-)

[Jay Beckman]

"Rachel" > wrote in message
. ..
> Jay Beckman wrote:
>> "Mike Schumann" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>>
>>>If he's got the grades, he should try to get into the best engineering
>>>school he can get into. He can take flying lessons on the side. After
>>>he gets out, he's got lots of options. No airline is going to hold a
>>>solid engineering degree against him.
>>
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have
>> an aviation degree program to boot.
>>
>> Jay B
>
> Purdue doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves in this whole aviation
> thing. In my not so humble opinion, of course. :-)
>
> Only problem is the weather isn't as nearly as good as ERAU... :-)

At least not ERAU Prescott...

Jay B

[Grumman-581]

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message news:X%CBf.11319$jR.3075@fed1read01...
> Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have
an
> aviation degree program to boot.

Awh, but then you'd be going to school with a bunch of damn Yankees...

TAMU has a degree in Aerospace Engineering...

Then again, what about ROTC and becoming a military pilot? I figure 4 years
of flying in the military will give you more experience than 4 years of
combined CFI and restaurant waiter experience... And the pay is definitely
better than what you could probably expect as a CFI...

[Rachel]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Jay Beckman" wrote in message news:X%CBf.11319$jR.3075@fed1read01...
>
>>Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have
>
> an
>
>>aviation degree program to boot.
>
>
> Awh, but then you'd be going to school with a bunch of damn Yankees...

Trust me, there are less Yankees at Purdue then you'd expect...

[Blanche]

In article >,
Rachel > wrote:
>Grumman-581 wrote:
>> "Jay Beckman" wrote in message news:X%CBf.11319$jR.3075@fed1read01...
>>
>>>Purdue University pops to mind ... great engineering school and they have
>>>an aviation degree program to boot.
>>
>> Awh, but then you'd be going to school with a bunch of damn Yankees...
>
>Trust me, there are less Yankees at Purdue then you'd expect...

And no one will admit to being a Yankee in Aggieland...

[Grumman-581]

"Blanche" wrote in message ...
> And no one will admit to being a Yankee in Aggieland...

And we don't ask 'em since we don't want to embarass 'em... On the other
hand, they do make good kindling for the bonfire...

[Scott D]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:00:44 GMT, "Grumman-581"
> wrote:

>"Blanche" wrote in message ...
>> And no one will admit to being a Yankee in Aggieland...
>
>And we don't ask 'em since we don't want to embarass 'em... On the other
>hand, they do make good kindling for the bonfire...
>


Hey Grumman... You an Ag? Did you belong to the A&M Flying club while
you were there?


Scott Dedeker

[Doug]

Embry Riddle is good, but it's not 120K in debt good. I wouldn't advise
anyone except a medical doctor or similar to take on that much debt for
school, especially when there are less expensive alternatives out there
(state university and the local FBO for instruction).

[Grumman-581]

<Scott D> wrote in message
...
> Hey Grumman... You an Ag? Did you belong to the A&M Flying club while
> you were there?

Nawh, I nearly ended up in graduate school there, but another school got
back to me first and gave me a research assistantship... Turns out that I
didn't know that you should complete your GREs *before* applying to graduate
school, but the other school's policy was that they would let you in if your
GPA was good enough as long as you completed them before the start of the
next school term... Thus, I ended up with a MS in CS (minor in EE) at
Louisiana Tech (which has a good aviation school) instead of TAMU... I'm in
the Houston area these days, so TAMU is kind of like a 'hometown'
university... Tons of their graduates around here driving maroon vehicles...

[Scott D]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:29:20 GMT, "Grumman-581"
> wrote:

><Scott D> wrote in message
...
>> Hey Grumman... You an Ag? Did you belong to the A&M Flying club while
>> you were there?
>
>Nawh, I nearly ended up in graduate school there, but another school got
>back to me first and gave me a research assistantship... Turns out that I
>didn't know that you should complete your GREs *before* applying to graduate
>school, but the other school's policy was that they would let you in if your
>GPA was good enough as long as you completed them before the start of the
>next school term... Thus, I ended up with a MS in CS (minor in EE) at
>Louisiana Tech (which has a good aviation school) instead of TAMU... I'm in
>the Houston area these days, so TAMU is kind of like a 'hometown'
>university... Tons of their graduates around here driving maroon vehicles...
>

Ah. I spent 15 years there in College Station and I got my PP there at
the flying club back in 96. Was glad I did.


Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me