Center vs. Approach Altitudes

[Joseph D. Farrell]

Hello - I have been looking in the AIM and a few other places and am
trying to track down where enroute approach control end and Center
control altitudes begin. When planning arrivals and depatures through
NYC/DC/PHL and BOS airspace I was curious where those altitudes begin.
I've been told several times that you need to be at 5000 when passing
through those airspaces IFR in Cherokees, etc and and was curious if
anyone knew where the center altitudes start since it would be more
economic on most flights to be higher [unless the winds are howling].
It is just as easy to plan 11000 or 10000 as 9 or 8 for a 350-450nm
leg.

I guess if no one knows, Ill just have to ask next time!

Joe Farrell
N8846J

[Roy Smith]

Joseph D. Farrell know what to add> wrote:
> Hello - I have been looking in the AIM and a few other places and am
> trying to track down where enroute approach control end and Center
> control altitudes begin.

You won't find that information in the AIM, and probably not in any
place easily accessable to pilots. Every approach control is different.

> When planning arrivals and depatures through
> NYC/DC/PHL and BOS airspace I was curious where those altitudes begin.
> I've been told several times that you need to be at 5000 when passing
> through those airspaces IFR in Cherokees, etc and and was curious if
> anyone knew where the center altitudes start since it would be more
> economic on most flights to be higher [unless the winds are howling].
> It is just as easy to plan 11000 or 10000 as 9 or 8 for a 350-450nm
> leg.

I've given up trying to second guess traffic patterns and altitudes.
File whatever you want, and you'll get whatever they want to give you.
Traffic flow into a congested area like New York changes depending on
which approaches are in use. The traffic is where the traffic is; it
doesn't really matter if TRACON or Center is controlling it.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

> Joseph D. Farrell know what to add> wrote:
> > Hello - I have been looking in the AIM and a few other places and am
> > trying to track down where enroute approach control end and Center
> > control altitudes begin.
>
> You won't find that information in the AIM, and probably not in any
> place easily accessable to pilots. Every approach control is different.
>

It can even vary by time of day.

[Bob Gardner]

I have graphics of the Seattle Center airspace that a controller was nice
enough to send me...it incorporates the airspace that belongs to the SEA
TRACON. Believe me, there is no way for a pilot to know what to expect
because there are some Letter of Agreement "gates" that apply only to
certain types of aircraft going in certain directions. A controller has his
or her hands full simply understanding the restrictions that apply to a
given sector...no way a pilot could remember what applies to ALL sectors.
And, as others have said, the rules change with the time of day, the wind,
and/or other factors.

Bob Gardner

"Joseph D. Farrell" know what to add> wrote in
message ...
> Hello - I have been looking in the AIM and a few other places and am
> trying to track down where enroute approach control end and Center
> control altitudes begin. When planning arrivals and depatures through
> NYC/DC/PHL and BOS airspace I was curious where those altitudes begin.
> I've been told several times that you need to be at 5000 when passing
> through those airspaces IFR in Cherokees, etc and and was curious if
> anyone knew where the center altitudes start since it would be more
> economic on most flights to be higher [unless the winds are howling].
> It is just as easy to plan 11000 or 10000 as 9 or 8 for a 350-450nm
> leg.
>
> I guess if no one knows, Ill just have to ask next time!
>
> Joe Farrell
> N8846J

[Snowbird]

Joseph D. Farrell know what to add> wrote in message >...
> Hello - I have been looking in the AIM and a few other places and am
> trying to track down where enroute approach control end and Center
> control altitudes begin.

Joseph,

I asked basically the same question sometime back, and the bottom
line seemed to be I'd have better luck asking for the moon.

Typically, the airspace controlled by a small TRACON may go up
to 8k or so; a major class B may go up to 14,000 ft or at least
require coordination until that height.

As for what altitude is best for you to go through an approach
airspace, that's going to vary depending upon your route and
the approach airspace in question, and even the winds and the
time of day. I would say, file for what you want and be prepared
to negotiate. Sometimes you can get through if conditions allow
you to request the IFR clearance VFR-on-top. Some TRACONs
are able and willing to let IFR flights fly through their turf.
Others operate on what we call the "GOMAB" principle (Get Out
of My Airspace Bugsmasher!) and will give you the wide-around.

You gotta understand that when you're IFR, to ATC you're a
slow-moving roadblock 5 miles wide and 2000 ft tall (I know,
I know, either 5 miles OR 1000 ft but the point is, they gotta
think about that swath of airspace surrounding you). So
depending upon how your exact route interacts with their
approach and departure patterns will govern what they can do.
If your flight path is perpendicular to their arrival and
departure stream, right over the airport at 4-6k might work
OK. If you're in a different place 4-6k might be impossible.

Dunno if this helps at all,
Sydney

[Roy Smith]

(Snowbird) wrote:
> If your flight path is perpendicular to their arrival and
> departure stream, right over the airport at 4-6k might work
> OK.

Or lower. I've had NY Approach bring me right over the center of
LaGuardia at 1500 with a steady stream of jets landing and departing
right below me. Pretty cool.

[John R. Copeland]

St. Louis approach does the same at STL for westbound arrivals to SUS.
---JRC---

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message =
...
> (Snowbird) wrote:
> > If your flight path is perpendicular to their arrival and
> > departure stream, right over the airport at 4-6k might work
> > OK.=20
>=20
> Or lower. I've had NY Approach bring me right over the center of=20
> LaGuardia at 1500 with a steady stream of jets landing and departing=20
> right below me. Pretty cool.

[EDR]

In article >, Joseph D.
Farrell > wrote:

LOA's.
Letters of Agreement.
Each facility makes agreements with its boundary facilities for control
of any given piece of airspace at any given time. Many factors
influence the terms of the LOA. Staffing, equipment in use, etc.

[Snowbird]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message >...
> St. Louis approach does the same at STL for westbound arrivals to SUS.

Westbound, generically?

I Don't Think So.

If you're approaching from the NE (ie you are SW bound) they will
often swing you a little to the west and take you over the top of Lambert.
Usually at 4-5000 ft IME. Basically if your direction of flight takes
you to the N of ALN.

OTOH if you're approaching from due E (ie course 270) or from the
SE (ie course NW) you're going to get the wide-around way to the
S if you're IFR because you're not just directly impacting the
departure/arrival corridor for STL, you're impacting the IFR
arrivals and departures from Parks and MidAmerica and Alton.

If they are actually taking you over the top of Lambert at 1500
ft, be advised that you are going to pop out of the class B
well before you get to SUS, and you'll either be right in the thick
of the E-W VFR corridor S. of Hwy 40 (I-64) or if you're further
to the W, like W of 270, you're going to be flying through the
N-S traffic corridor into 1H0 which is quite busy on weekends
and quite often NORDO or monitoring 1H0 Unicom. Usually flying
1500-1700 ft to stay under the approach path into SUS. Keep
both eyes peeled and cultivate a neck like an owl.

Cheers,
Sydney

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > (Snowbird) wrote:
> > > If your flight path is perpendicular to their arrival and
> > > departure stream, right over the airport at 4-6k might work
> > > OK.
> >
> > Or lower. I've had NY Approach bring me right over the center of
> > LaGuardia at 1500 with a steady stream of jets landing and departing
> > right below me. Pretty cool.