bad cylinder

[blanche cohen]

Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
it's time.

So -- the big questions

1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
(No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

thanks

[jls]

That's a lot of time for a cylinder. You should be proud.
Continental cylinders don't ever last that long before needing overhaul
or replacement.

I like Milleniums by Superior. They probably have replacements for
your O-360. ECI probably makes them too.

[Mike Noel]

Yes, that is a lot of time on a cylinder. That said, it is not uncommon to
find oil sometimes on the bottom plug. If it is on both plugs, then I start
to worry.

--
Mike Noel,
Tucson, Arizona

'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction.'

-Blaise Pascal
"blanche cohen" > wrote in message
...
> Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
> more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
> plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
> it's time.
>
> So -- the big questions
>
> 1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
> 2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
> (No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
> 3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?
>
> thanks
>

[Denny]

Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
cylinders will be on it?

On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
lose dollars later... Your call...

No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
know what age the cylinder is...

No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
work...

And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
not rumours on the internet - facts......

cheers ... denny

[Jay Honeck]

> 1) Overhaul or buy a new one?

New.

> 2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?

Millennium, hand's down.

> 3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

No difference.

Make a cool lamp out of the old cylinder!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blanche]

Denny > wrote:
>Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
>ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
>if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
>cylinders will be on it?

These are 3 original Lycoming cylinders from 1969 and one overhauled
about 10 years ago.

>On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
>years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
>cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
>cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
>to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
>did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
>TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
>having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
>plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
>math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
>lose dollars later... Your call...

And your point is? I'm missing something here.

>No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
>overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
>know what age the cylinder is...

Great! My concern is how the break-in process will impact the current
cylinders, too.

>No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
>brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
>work...

I'm trying. Isn't that why I posted here? r.a.o is another resource
for me.

>And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
>highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
>currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
>field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
>not rumours on the internet - facts......

So - do you have this information handy? I get really tired of
hunting thru a really crappy FAA database. You'd think with all
the contracts they let for web stuff, they'd hire someone who understands
the basics of user interface usability, database searches, and
organization.

[Blanche]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> 1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
>
>New.

Yup. I just got off the phone with pricing from Superior & Air Power.
Not only that, but a local EAA member wants the old core.

>> 2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
>
>Millennium, hand's down.

Yup. That's the pricing.

>> 3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?
>
>No difference.
>
>Make a cool lamp out of the old cylinder!

Tried to make a lamp out of the old fixed gear, no luck.

On my way to the airport to talk options with the shop. It may not
be the entire cylinder. It may just be the rings, and the cylinder is
still good.

[Jim Burns]

I've got 3 ECI cylinders on one engine. I just got done checking them for
the recent replacement AD. I dodged a bullet...this time... and until
when??? I also know that our aerial applicator will not touch anything made
by ECI, they claim they've just seen too much junk come from that company.

YMMV
Jim

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Denny > wrote:
> >Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
> >ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
> >if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
> >cylinders will be on it?
>
> These are 3 original Lycoming cylinders from 1969 and one overhauled
> about 10 years ago.
>
> >On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
> >years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
> >cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
> >cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
> >to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
> >did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
> >TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
> >having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
> >plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
> >math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
> >lose dollars later... Your call...
>
> And your point is? I'm missing something here.
>
> >No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
> >overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
> >know what age the cylinder is...
>
> Great! My concern is how the break-in process will impact the current
> cylinders, too.
>
> >No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
> >brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
> >work...
>
> I'm trying. Isn't that why I posted here? r.a.o is another resource
> for me.
>
> >And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
> >highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
> >currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
> >field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
> >not rumours on the internet - facts......
>
> So - do you have this information handy? I get really tired of
> hunting thru a really crappy FAA database. You'd think with all
> the contracts they let for web stuff, they'd hire someone who understands
> the basics of user interface usability, database searches, and
> organization.
>

[Denny]

Umm, wasn't trying to be coy... The point is that overhauling a used
cylinder means that the odds of that OH cylinder making it to another
TBO without cracking are somewhere between 4 in 6 to less than 2 in 6,
depending on the total hours since new on that barrel/head...

However, the current SMOH on your engine is not specified, nor did you
suggest how long you expect this engine to continue to run before
needing an OH... As I 'now think' I understand your post you are
looking to repair one cylinder and let the engine run until it breaks -
different ball game from overhauling the engine... For that I would
have the cylinder serviced and put it back on... That is one third to
one half the price of new (assuming, yadda yadda)

Actually, I am in the process of buying a new cylinder a month (O-320
A3B) for my starboard engine as it is beginning to oil the bottom plugs
on two cylinders (roughly 1650 hours since OH with more than 5400 since
new - the last OH was 1979 as it spent years in a crate)... This is in
anticipation of an overhaul in the near future as my son is learning to
fly and we fly 4 to 5 hours a week...


denny

[Blanche]

Denny > wrote:
>However, the current SMOH on your engine is not specified, nor did you
>suggest how long you expect this engine to continue to run before
>needing an OH... As I 'now think' I understand your post you are
>looking to repair one cylinder and let the engine run until it breaks -
>different ball game from overhauling the engine... For that I would
>have the cylinder serviced and put it back on... That is one third to
>one half the price of new (assuming, yadda yadda)

I took the cylinder to the shop that specializes in this work and
not only had a long chat, but he took apart the cylinder and showed
me the details. The decision is to repair, not buy new, not overhaul.
Engine overhaul is anticipated for this July (which is a lousy
month in the SW US for flying due to the heat).

>A3B) for my starboard engine as it is beginning to oil the bottom plugs
>on two cylinders (roughly 1650 hours since OH with more than 5400 since

Oil on the bottom plug was the red flag to the shop.

Overall, I'm not really that unhappy. This repair is cheaper than
another radio (which was the original problem that led to this
discovery). Altho this is the first time on the airplane, I've
been in this situation before more than once -- something relatively
minor (in the scheme of things) but very annoying caused me to
deal with the problem real soon, which in turned identified a
very serious problem that was caught early. (One with my car,
one medical).

[Blanche]

At this moment, looks like rings, hone, check everything on
the cylinder.

[[email protected]]

Blanche > wrote:
: At this moment, looks like rings, hone, check everything on
: the cylinder.

Make sure the check includes the valve guides. We had our jugs off 3 years
(and 350 hours ago). Told the shop to do an IRAN. The guides now barely passed the
"wobble check." I'm sure it was "within service limits" before, but I would have like
to have heard them say, "but it's close to requiring replacement."

Just a thought.
-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jim Burns]

So what did the cylinder shop find? What will their repare consist of?
Thanks
Jim

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Denny > wrote:
>>However, the current SMOH on your engine is not specified, nor did you
>>suggest how long you expect this engine to continue to run before
>>needing an OH... As I 'now think' I understand your post you are
>>looking to repair one cylinder and let the engine run until it breaks -
>>different ball game from overhauling the engine... For that I would
>>have the cylinder serviced and put it back on... That is one third to
>>one half the price of new (assuming, yadda yadda)
>
> I took the cylinder to the shop that specializes in this work and
> not only had a long chat, but he took apart the cylinder and showed
> me the details. The decision is to repair, not buy new, not overhaul.
> Engine overhaul is anticipated for this July (which is a lousy
> month in the SW US for flying due to the heat).
>
>>A3B) for my starboard engine as it is beginning to oil the bottom plugs
>>on two cylinders (roughly 1650 hours since OH with more than 5400 since
>
> Oil on the bottom plug was the red flag to the shop.
>
> Overall, I'm not really that unhappy. This repair is cheaper than
> another radio (which was the original problem that led to this
> discovery). Altho this is the first time on the airplane, I've
> been in this situation before more than once -- something relatively
> minor (in the scheme of things) but very annoying caused me to
> deal with the problem real soon, which in turned identified a
> very serious problem that was caught early. (One with my car,
> one medical).
>

[Blanche]

I'm still half asleep...what's "IRAN" other than a country inthe
mid-east?

[Dave Butler]

Blanche wrote:
> I'm still half asleep...what's "IRAN" other than a country inthe
> mid-east?

Inspect, Repair As Necessary.

[Blanche]

In article <1138823929.583603@sj-nntpcache-3>, Dave Butler > wrote:
>Blanche wrote:
>> I'm still half asleep...what's "IRAN" other than a country inthe
>> mid-east?
>
>Inspect, Repair As Necessary.

Ah -- another one to add to the TLA list.

[Ken Reed]

>>>I'm still half asleep...what's "IRAN" other than a country inthe
>>>mid-east?

>>Inspect, Repair As Necessary.

> Ah -- another one to add to the TLA list.

IRAN is four letters . . .
---
Ken Reed
N9124X

[Blanche]

Ken Reed > wrote:
>>>>I'm still half asleep...what's "IRAN" other than a country inthe
>>>>mid-east?
>
>>>Inspect, Repair As Necessary.
>
>> Ah -- another one to add to the TLA list.
>
>IRAN is four letters . . .

Ken, Ken, Ken...."TLA" is an Official designation of the
US Dept. of Defense. You would argue with that poor, woe-begone
G-3 sitting in the basement of an annex of the Pentagon?

(*chortle*)

[Clyde]

If that cylinder went 2500 hours, gave you no trouble, then why not buy that
brand. You know what kind of service you got out of this one, seems to me
there is no reason to look elsewhere. Just my .02 worth.
Clyde

"blanche cohen" > wrote in message
...
> Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
> more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
> plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
> it's time.
>
> So -- the big questions
>
> 1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
> 2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
> (No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
> 3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?
>
> thanks
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Clyde" > wrote in message
...
> If that cylinder went 2500 hours, gave you no trouble, then why not buy
> that
> brand. You know what kind of service you got out of this one, seems to me
> there is no reason to look elsewhere. Just my .02 worth.
> Clyde

What was made 2500 hours ago is probably not what is being made now. One
only needs to review all the recent engine ADs. Cylinders have been
especially troublesome for both Lycoming and Continental. I would not buy a
cylinder from either.


>
> "blanche cohen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
>> more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
>> plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
>> it's time.
>>
>> So -- the big questions
>>
>> 1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
>> 2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
>> (No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
>> 3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>
>

[John Clonts]

Instead, just add this to your website list:
www.acronymfinder.com

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Denny]

And ECI currently forced to replace thousands of cylinders doesn't mean
a thing, eh... Interesting...
\
denny

[Denny]

Lycoming had an AD on cylinders in 1976 and that AD has since been
canceled...In fact, the only current AD's regarding cylinders for
Lycomings < that I can find on a quick search > are against ECI and
Superior...
I don't have an axe to grind here... I'm interested in facts...

denny

[Dave Stadt]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Lycoming had an AD on cylinders in 1976 and that AD has since been
> canceled...In fact, the only current AD's regarding cylinders for
> Lycomings < that I can find on a quick search > are against ECI and
> Superior...
> I don't have an axe to grind here... I'm interested in facts...
>
> denny

Not sure who you are talking to as you have not seen fit to include anything
other than your response. Lycoming has had numerous ADs on crank shafts
(the numbers are still growing). Continental cylinders have been junk for
decades. There was (and still is) an AD on some Continental cylinders that
requires retarding timing to reduce power to prevent cylinder cracking.
They kept promising the problems were fixed but each generation was as bad
as the last. The reason ECI and Superior came to be is in part due to what
Lycoming and Continental were producing. The ADs against ECI and Superior
are insignificant compared to some of the Lycoming ADs. ADs don't tell the
whole story, in fact as far as long term reliability is concerned they tell
you almost nothing. Only when a problem becomes a safety factor does it
have a chance to become an AD. Cylinders wearing out in a couple hundred
hours will most likely not generate an AD.

[Doug]

Cylinders in Lycoming engines usually last quite a long time. My
rebuilder says that he almost never sees a failed Lycoming cylinder
from a 320, 360 or 540. This is true regardless of the brand of
cylinder. I have had excellent results from Lycoming branded cylinders.
Unfortunately, ECI just had a bad mandatory replacement (not covered by
their warranty) on their Lycoming engine cylinders (ouch!).

If it were me, I'd use the same cylinder that the engine has on its
other cylinders. Nothing wrong with Lycoming cylinders. Some of the
coated cylinders are better if you live where its wet and dont fly
often as they are less suceptable to corrosion. I don't think its a
huge issue. Any of the new cylinders are going to be pretty good.

[Blanche]

John Clonts > wrote:
>Instead, just add this to your website list:
> www.acronymfinder.com
>

Hm...too many duplicates of the same abbreviation, e.g. ATM.
Doesn't look like there's any editorial review.

But useful just the same...thanks