Jepps airport and VOR names ... how used?

[akiley]

Question A: I'm trying to get fast and accurate at programming routes
(and possible reroutes) into the KLN94 and G1000 navigators our club
planes are equipped with. I was wondering, does ATC usually give you
the VOR 3 letter ID or the full name? If it's the full name and it's
unfamiliar territory, do you just ask them to spell all VOR and fix
names? Or do you write down the full name longhand then try to find
the match on the chart. I fly a lot of local and they seem to say the
full VOR name.

Question B: How do you know what an airport is *called*? If it has an
IAP you can see it's called "Jackson Tower". (Jackson, MI, KJXN) If
you use a gov VFR chart, or Jepps LOW you would only know to call it
"Jackson County Reynolds tower". Lansing Michigan's airport name is
"Capital City", but it's Lansing Tower on the Jepps IAP. Sees this
could add a layer of confusion when the tower is closed and someone
that doesn't know the area is reporting final Capital City. Why do
they have airport names, but not necessarily use them?

.... Aaron

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/06/06 07:19, akiley wrote:
> Question A: I'm trying to get fast and accurate at programming routes
> (and possible reroutes) into the KLN94 and G1000 navigators our club
> planes are equipped with. I was wondering, does ATC usually give you
> the VOR 3 letter ID or the full name? If it's the full name and it's
> unfamiliar territory, do you just ask them to spell all VOR and fix
> names? Or do you write down the full name longhand then try to find
> the match on the chart. I fly a lot of local and they seem to say the
> full VOR name.

When I'm receiving my clearance, I write down what I hear, and follow
along with the en route chart on my lap. If necessary, I'll ask the
controller to provide the fix identifier. I suppose you could even
ask for that up front:

"... ready to copy - and can you please include the fix IDs?"

Also, once you get the clearance, you can ask for some time to digest
it before you read it back:

"... standby by for read back."


>
> Question B: How do you know what an airport is *called*? If it has an
> IAP you can see it's called "Jackson Tower". (Jackson, MI, KJXN) If
> you use a gov VFR chart, or Jepps LOW you would only know to call it
> "Jackson County Reynolds tower". Lansing Michigan's airport name is
> "Capital City", but it's Lansing Tower on the Jepps IAP. Sees this
> could add a layer of confusion when the tower is closed and someone
> that doesn't know the area is reporting final Capital City. Why do
> they have airport names, but not necessarily use them?

That's a good question, and one I've wondered as well. There's an
airport near me that is charted as "Yuba County", but is called
"Marysville". When I was flying practice approaches into it (during
training) I called it Yuba County, and the controller just came back
with Marysville, so I started calling it Marysville as well.


>
> ... Aaron
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Marco Leon]

Interesting questions.
Question A: It depends on the controller. In the Northeast, I've found that
the more commonly-used VORs are referred to by name only while others have
the identifier called out on a regular basis--especially if the ID is
nothing like the name. Just ask the controller to give it to you by the
identifier beforehand. They'll probably have no probem with it.

Question B: Like you mentioned, the Jepps have the spoken name on their
charts which is one of their benefits. At least at my home field--where the
spoken name is Republic and the charts are under Farmingdale--I've never
personally heard it cause any confusion (with or without the tower
operational). Most pilots can figure it out quite readily. Call them by
whatever the ATC facility is using (either tower or Approach) and you can't
go wrong. As for the history of WHY, well, that probably varies with each
facility.

Marco


"akiley" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Question A: I'm trying to get fast and accurate at programming routes
> (and possible reroutes) into the KLN94 and G1000 navigators our club
> planes are equipped with. I was wondering, does ATC usually give you
> the VOR 3 letter ID or the full name? If it's the full name and it's
> unfamiliar territory, do you just ask them to spell all VOR and fix
> names? Or do you write down the full name longhand then try to find
> the match on the chart. I fly a lot of local and they seem to say the
> full VOR name.
>
> Question B: How do you know what an airport is *called*? If it has an
> IAP you can see it's called "Jackson Tower". (Jackson, MI, KJXN) If
> you use a gov VFR chart, or Jepps LOW you would only know to call it
> "Jackson County Reynolds tower". Lansing Michigan's airport name is
> "Capital City", but it's Lansing Tower on the Jepps IAP. Sees this
> could add a layer of confusion when the tower is closed and someone
> that doesn't know the area is reporting final Capital City. Why do
> they have airport names, but not necessarily use them?
>
> ... Aaron
>



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[Doug]

I agree it is ambigous. ATC can use either VOR name or 3 letter ID.

Airport names are a mess also. Take "Jeffco" (KBJC). It is listed as
being in Denver in the Approach plates (at least the govt ones). But it
is not in Denver (it is in the Denver area but is actually in
Westminster (I think)). There are many airports like this. Especially
confusing when you aren't prepared for it in advance (like a
diversion).

You think thats a mess, in Alaska, many of the airports have TWO
different id codes or did, they are working to clear that up)...

Such is life.

[Dave Butler]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> There's an
> airport near me that is charted as "Yuba County", but is called
> "Marysville". When I was flying practice approaches into it (during
> training) I called it Yuba County, and the controller just came back
> with Marysville, so I started calling it Marysville as well.

73J, Beaufort, SC, is listed as "Beaufort County" but invariably referred to by
ATC as "Frogmore".

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Doug" > said:
>You think thats a mess, in Alaska, many of the airports have TWO
>different id codes or did, they are working to clear that up)...

The messy thing for me (doing my navaid.com waypoint generators) is trying
to figure out ICAO ids for Alaska airports when dealing with the FAA data.
In the lower 48, there are hard and fast rules for when you can and when
you can't turn an FAA id into an ICAO id by adding a K prefix. The prefix
in Alaska is two characters, and then the ICAO id is *usually* made up of
that prefix plus two of the three characters in the FAA id, but not
following any sort of rules that I can discern.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
.... industry giant Microsoft Corporation... a company that has become
successful without resorting to software testing...
-- Unknown, rec.humor.funny

[Doug]

Well, I can tell you that when I was up there in Alaska (and the last
time was 4 years ago, so things have changed), the id my GPS used
(which was ICAO, and the id that FSS used were different. And if you
looked in the AFD, there were TWO different ids (NONE with the ICAO
prefix) in the AFD). What a mess!!!!! I am sure they are working it out
(I assume they are migrating to ICAO) but I don't have the lastest.

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-02-06, akiley > wrote:
> If it's the full name and it's
> unfamiliar territory, do you just ask them to spell all VOR and fix
> names?

Best to ask them to spell it out. If you're that unfamiliar, it doesn't
hurt to get a double check of the route. I once spent 5 minutes searching
for the "SUNOL.2" arrival which was really the "PANOCHE.2". If I'd quickly
questioned the arrival I couldn't find I would have gotten a correction.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Henry A. Spellman]

Controllers sometimes don't remember that a fix or facility name has
changed. I live near Bloomington, IL, with a VOR named Bloomington
(BMI). My son lived near Bloomington, IN, and the VOR approach to the
airport nearest his home was based on the VOR at Bloomington, IN,
naturally named Bloomington VOR (BMG if I remember correctly). Shortly
after the Bloomington (IN) VOR was renamed Hoosier VOR (OOM), I was
enroute to see my son when I received an amended clearance "direct to
Bloomington VOR". I asked for clarification, and the controller
repeated the same clearance. Bloomington (IL) (BMI) was behind me, so I
asked why he wanted me to turn around. Then it dawned on me, and I
asked if maybe the last clearance was really for Hoosier VOR. He agreed
that Hoosier VOR would be better.

You can't ever let your guard down.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman
Comanche N5903P

Marco Leon wrote:
> Interesting questions.
> Question A: It depends on the controller. In the Northeast, I've found that
> the more commonly-used VORs are referred to by name only while others have
> the identifier called out on a regular basis--especially if the ID is
> nothing like the name. Just ask the controller to give it to you by the
> identifier beforehand. They'll probably have no probem with it.
>
> Question B: Like you mentioned, the Jepps have the spoken name on their
> charts which is one of their benefits. At least at my home field--where the
> spoken name is Republic and the charts are under Farmingdale--I've never
> personally heard it cause any confusion (with or without the tower
> operational). Most pilots can figure it out quite readily. Call them by
> whatever the ATC facility is using (either tower or Approach) and you can't
> go wrong. As for the history of WHY, well, that probably varies with each
> facility.
>
> Marco
>

[Chris Matras]

"Frogmore" is a nearby town. It's also famous for it's "Frogmore
Stew" - a boil consisiting of shrimp, corn, onions, and sausage. Some
may know it as "Beaufort Stew".

Beaufort - home of Parris Island, Marine Corps Air Station, "The Big
Chill", "The Great Santini", "Forest Gump" and me.

Chris - Mooney N9373M

Dave Butler > wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:

> There's an
> airport near me that is charted as "Yuba County", but is called
> "Marysville". When I was flying practice approaches into it (during
> training) I called it Yuba County, and the controller just came back
> with Marysville, so I started calling it Marysville as well.

73J, Beaufort, SC, is listed as "Beaufort County" but invariably
referred to by
ATC as "Frogmore".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"akiley" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Question A: I'm trying to get fast and accurate at programming routes
> (and possible reroutes) into the KLN94 and G1000 navigators our club
> planes are equipped with. I was wondering, does ATC usually give you
> the VOR 3 letter ID or the full name? If it's the full name and it's
> unfamiliar territory, do you just ask them to spell all VOR and fix
> names? Or do you write down the full name longhand then try to find
> the match on the chart. I fly a lot of local and they seem to say the
> full VOR name.
>

Full name. You can certainly ask for the identifier.


>
> Question B: How do you know what an airport is *called*? If it has an
> IAP you can see it's called "Jackson Tower". (Jackson, MI, KJXN) If
> you use a gov VFR chart, or Jepps LOW you would only know to call it
> "Jackson County Reynolds tower". Lansing Michigan's airport name is
> "Capital City", but it's Lansing Tower on the Jepps IAP. Sees this
> could add a layer of confusion when the tower is closed and someone
> that doesn't know the area is reporting final Capital City. Why do
> they have airport names, but not necessarily use them?
>

You're speaking of two different things. Airports have names, and control
towers have names, but the control tower and airport don't necessarily have
the same name. The name of the ATC facility at JXN is "Jackson Tower", not
"Jackson County Reynolds tower".

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Well, I can tell you that when I was up there in Alaska (and the last
> time was 4 years ago, so things have changed), the id my GPS used
> (which was ICAO, and the id that FSS used were different. And if you
> looked in the AFD, there were TWO different ids (NONE with the ICAO
> prefix) in the AFD). What a mess!!!!! I am sure they are working it out
> (I assume they are migrating to ICAO) but I don't have the lastest.
>

That's odd, I have a 15 year old Alaska A/FD and all the airports that have
two identifiers have the proper 3-letter and ICAO identifiers.

[Jim Macklin]

I remember filing my Jeppesen revisions many years ago, over
a period of about 8 weeks, the City of St. Louis renamed the
Lambert Airport every week, I guess it was to celebrate
something. First it was Lambert Field, Then it was St.
Louis Lambert Airport, then it was St. Louis Lambert
International Airport, then they began again. This required
that every approach chart and procedure be re-issued. It was
a pain in the neck because some local politician was
exercising their right to name the airport.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in
message
link.net...
|
| "Doug" > wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| >
| > Well, I can tell you that when I was up there in Alaska
(and the last
| > time was 4 years ago, so things have changed), the id my
GPS used
| > (which was ICAO, and the id that FSS used were
different. And if you
| > looked in the AFD, there were TWO different ids (NONE
with the ICAO
| > prefix) in the AFD). What a mess!!!!! I am sure they are
working it out
| > (I assume they are migrating to ICAO) but I don't have
the lastest.
| >
|
| That's odd, I have a 15 year old Alaska A/FD and all the
airports that have
| two identifiers have the proper 3-letter and ICAO
identifiers.
|
|

[Allan9]

This came about by the increased usage of computers in Air Traffic Control.
Computers could not understand or process a VOR(Cleveland VOR) CLE direct
to Cleveland (Hopkins) Airport CLE. So it was decided to change the name
the name of the VOR. So Cleveland VOR becamw Dryer VOR (DBJ). It was
nameed after a very prominent Cleveland aviation family. Milwaukee VOR
became Badger, South Bend VOR became Gipper (wonder why?) and so on.
Al


"Henry A. Spellman" > wrote in message
news:SBOFf.780436$xm3.140642@attbi_s21...
> Controllers sometimes don't remember that a fix or facility name has
> changed. I live near Bloomington, IL, with a VOR named Bloomington (BMI).
> My son lived near Bloomington, IN, and the VOR approach to the airport
> nearest his home was based on the VOR at Bloomington, IN, naturally named
> Bloomington VOR (BMG if I remember correctly). Shortly after the
> Bloomington (IN) VOR was renamed Hoosier VOR (OOM), I was enroute to see
> my son when I received an amended clearance "direct to Bloomington VOR".
> I asked for clarification, and the controller repeated the same clearance.
> Bloomington (IL) (BMI) was behind me, so I asked why he wanted me to turn
> around. Then it dawned on me, and I asked if maybe the last clearance was
> really for Hoosier VOR. He agreed that Hoosier VOR would be better.
>
> You can't ever let your guard down.
>
> Hank
> Henry A. Spellman
> Comanche N5903P
>
> Marco Leon wrote:
>> Interesting questions.
>> Question A: It depends on the controller. In the Northeast, I've found
>> that
>> the more commonly-used VORs are referred to by name only while others
>> have
>> the identifier called out on a regular basis--especially if the ID is
>> nothing like the name. Just ask the controller to give it to you by the
>> identifier beforehand. They'll probably have no probem with it.
>>
>> Question B: Like you mentioned, the Jepps have the spoken name on their
>> charts which is one of their benefits. At least at my home field--where
>> the
>> spoken name is Republic and the charts are under Farmingdale--I've never
>> personally heard it cause any confusion (with or without the tower
>> operational). Most pilots can figure it out quite readily. Call them by
>> whatever the ATC facility is using (either tower or Approach) and you
>> can't
>> go wrong. As for the history of WHY, well, that probably varies with each
>> facility.
>>
>> Marco
>>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Allan9" > said:
>This came about by the increased usage of computers in Air Traffic Control.
>Computers could not understand or process a VOR(Cleveland VOR) CLE direct
>to Cleveland (Hopkins) Airport CLE. So it was decided to change the name
>the name of the VOR. So Cleveland VOR becamw Dryer VOR (DBJ). It was
>nameed after a very prominent Cleveland aviation family. Milwaukee VOR
>became Badger, South Bend VOR became Gipper (wonder why?) and so on.
>Al

So why are so many VORs around here still sharing the name and ident with
the local airport? SYR, ROC and BUF are all FAA ids that are shared
between airports and their on-field or nearby VORs. BUF VOR is even part
of the BUFFALO ONE departure from BUF airport, and is part of the feeder
routes for several instrument approaches there.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"It should be understood by those skilled in the art that a Web browser, such
as Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer, ... is separate from the operating
system." - Microsoft patent lawyers shoot their anti-trust lawyers in the ass.

[Peter R.]

Paul Tomblin > wrote:

> So why are so many VORs around here still sharing the name and ident with
> the local airport? SYR, ROC and BUF are all FAA ids that are shared
> between airports and their on-field or nearby VORs. BUF VOR is even part
> of the BUFFALO ONE departure from BUF airport, and is part of the feeder
> routes for several instrument approaches there.

Flying out of Syracuse, I was thinking the same thing...

--
Peter

[G Farris]

In article <q0XFf.79086$QW2.34288@dukeread08>,
says...
>
>
>I remember filing my Jeppesen revisions many years ago, over
>a period of about 8 weeks, the City of St. Louis renamed the
>Lambert Airport every week, I guess it was to celebrate
>something. First it was Lambert Field, Then it was St.
>Louis Lambert Airport, then it was St. Louis Lambert
>International Airport, then they began again. This required
>that every approach chart and procedure be re-issued. It was
>a pain in the neck because some local politician was
>exercising their right to name the airport.
>

That's funny - but at least being St Louis, you didn't have to wonder
what city name to use. Lots of airports are located next to small towns
that an "outsider" pilot doesn't know or care about. Someone flying in
from a thousand miles away might think of HPN as a New York airport. They
probably know it's called Westchester County, but they may never have
heard of White Plains. And that's an example from a well-known airport.
Who knows off the top of their head the town associated with Harriman and
West?

GF

[John R. Copeland]

"Allan9" > wrote in message ...
>
> .... So Cleveland VOR becamw Dryer VOR (DBJ). It was
> nameed after a very prominent Cleveland aviation family. Milwaukee VOR
> became Badger, South Bend VOR became Gipper (wonder why?) and so on.
> Al
>

"And so on" indeed.
In 1956, the Columbus, Ohio zoo had the first gorilla baby ever born
in captivity. Shortly after, our VOR was renamed APE (Appleton).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Allan9" > wrote in message
...
>
> This came about by the increased usage of computers in Air Traffic
> Control. Computers could not understand or process a VOR(Cleveland VOR)
> CLE direct to Cleveland (Hopkins) Airport CLE. So it was decided to
> change the name the name of the VOR. So Cleveland VOR becamw Dryer VOR
> (DBJ). It was nameed after a very prominent Cleveland aviation family.
> Milwaukee VOR became Badger, South Bend VOR became Gipper (wonder why?) >
> and so on.
>

Flight data processing computers could understand and process VOR to airport
and airport to VOR routes with identical identifiers. They still do, the
VORs that had their identifiers changed were typically those that were more
than about five miles from the airport.

By the way, Dryer is DJB, not DBJ.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> So why are so many VORs around here still sharing the name and ident with
> the local airport? SYR, ROC and BUF are all FAA ids that are shared
> between airports and their on-field or nearby VORs. BUF VOR is even part
> of the BUFFALO ONE departure from BUF airport, and is part of the feeder
> routes for several instrument approaches there.
>

Because they're on or near the airport. Only the VORs that were some
distance from the fields were changed, generally more than five miles.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
. ..
"Allan9" > wrote in message
...
>
> "And so on" indeed. In 1956, the Columbus, Ohio zoo had the first gorilla
> baby ever born in captivity. Shortly after, our VOR was renamed APE
> (Appleton).
>

No it wasn't. Columbus VOR was located about three miles SSE of New Albany.
Appleton VOR is about four miles SSE of Appleton. I think the choice of
designator was more likely influenced by the name of the nearby community
than by any recent birth at the zoo.

[John R. Copeland]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
> "John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
> . ..
> "Allan9" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "And so on" indeed. In 1956, the Columbus, Ohio zoo had the first gorilla
>> baby ever born in captivity. Shortly after, our VOR was renamed APE
>> (Appleton).
>>
>
> No it wasn't. Columbus VOR was located about three miles SSE of New Albany.
> Appleton VOR is about four miles SSE of Appleton. I think the choice of
> designator was more likely influenced by the name of the nearby community
> than by any recent birth at the zoo.
>
You're correct about the locations, Steven, but in 1956 the stated reason for the
location change was the construction of a 720,000-volt electrical power line
whose right-of-way passed very near the old VOR location.
(That line was one of the earliest 720kV lines in the U.S.)
That region is the highest elevation in the county, and the move was said to guard
against reflections from the towers and the massive conductors of the lines.

If not for commemoration of the birth of Colo, I didn't think a change in name
was particularly mandated from moving the VOR by maybe 5 miles or so.
I guessed at the time that somebody searched hard to locate a little burg
in the vicinity which could "justify" the APE designation. :-)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
...
>
> You're correct about the locations, Steven, but in 1956 the stated reason
> for the
> location change was the construction of a 720,000-volt electrical power
> line
> whose right-of-way passed very near the old VOR location.
>

I said nothing about the reason a new VOR site was needed. My point was
just that the VOR had not been renamed.

[John R. Copeland]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
> "John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> You're correct about the locations, Steven, but in 1956 the stated reason
>> for the
>> location change was the construction of a 720,000-volt electrical power
>> line
>> whose right-of-way passed very near the old VOR location.
>>
>
> I said nothing about the reason a new VOR site was needed. My point was
> just that the VOR had not been renamed.
>
Ah, of course. I see what you meant.
OK, the old VOR was decommissioned, and its replacement was named APE.
It was an apt name, though.
It's immaterial that other VORs have been moved without being renamed.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Ah, of course. I see what you meant.
> OK, the old VOR was decommissioned, and its replacement was named APE.
> It was an apt name, though.
> It's immaterial that other VORs have been moved without being renamed.
>

The discussion had been about VORs that had been renamed without being
moved.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>Flight data processing computers could understand and process VOR to airport
>and airport to VOR routes with identical identifiers. They still do, the
>VORs that had their identifiers changed were typically those that were more
>than about five miles from the airport.

BUF VOR is 3.8nm from BUF airport, so that fits.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I find that anthropomorphism really doesn't help me deal with hardware all
that much, because it lends a certain attitude of disdain to what would
otherwise be a mere malfunction. -- Carl Jacobs