Ping: Toecutter

[Bob Chilcoat]

My Hershey-Bar wing Archer is in for annual. Today they found a crack in
the left wing aileron bellcrank support. Sounds dangerous. It's going to
need replacing. Any idea if this is as big a job as it sounds like? Will
the wing skins need to come off? Anyplace I can find a drawing of the
structure online? Thanks.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[[email protected]]

Bob Chilcoat > wrote:
: My Hershey-Bar wing Archer is in for annual. Today they found a crack in
: the left wing aileron bellcrank support. Sounds dangerous. It's going to
: need replacing. Any idea if this is as big a job as it sounds like? Will
: the wing skins need to come off? Anyplace I can find a drawing of the
: structure online? Thanks.

Having looked up in that inspection hole a number of times on my plane, it
sounds like it's probably a pretty big deal. I think that support is riveted on one
of the ribs. If it's bolted on somehow you might have a chance, but if it's riveted
you're going to have to pull some skin off, I think.

Sorry to hear about that. Now I've got another thing to check closely on mine
next time...

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Bob Chilcoat]

I had a chance to stop by this afternoon and examine the cracked support
bracket for myself. It's a small triangular sheet aluminum bracket (maybe 6"
long and 3" wide -- imagine a 90 degree right triangle with a flange bent
over along the hypotenuse, and with a small hole drilled near the 90 degree
point for the bellcrank bolt). It supports the top of the bellcrank pivot
bolt (via the hole at the bracket's apex). The bellcrank bolt extends
throught the hole in the bracket, thorugh the bellcrank and then through the
lower wing skin. A nut on the end, outside the wing, completes the
assembly. The bracket had cracked along the horizontal flange where it is
riveted to the adjacent wing rib. There are six rivets holding this flange
to the rib. There is also a vertical reinforcement piece (another, smaller
triangular piece) that is riveted to the bracket, that has another three
rivets into the rib, so there are a total of nine rivets holding the bracket
to the rib. The crack was behind the most forward rivet and is about 3/4"
long.

Steve (our A&P) says that after it cracks near that first rivet, the crack
will propagate along the bend that forms the flange until it reaches the
next rivet, then the next, etc. The aileron will get progressively more
"spongy" feeling as this happens. However, unless it's allowed to go
unrepaired for some time, it seems unlikely that there will be a
catastrophic failure. We caught ours early (Steve noticed that the bracket
was moving when he moved the aileron). Nevertheless, it needed repairing,
which involves removing the fuel tank, drilling out the nine rivets, and
replacing the bracket. He was almost finished when I stopped in at 3:30, so
it shouldn't be horrendously expensive. Steve adds a small doubler to the
factory part, which adds a bit of extra metal thickness to the first two
rivets and which should reduce the likelihood of it happening again. He says
this cracking occurs from the ailerons banging against their stops, so
anyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place when
the plane is tied down, every time.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[Jay Honeck]

> (A)nyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place
> when the plane is tied down, every time.

Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?

I've only used the "seat belt" method, when I remember -- and I always hate
the way it cranks the stabilator up into the air.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns]

We paid wayyyy too much for one of these http://www.gustlock.com/, but it
came with a free Aztec. Honestly, it works very well, BUT since it locks
your rudder pedals and thus your nose wheel steering, make sure you put the
included "DO NOT TOW" tag on the nose wheel, or it will need a different
kind of toe tag.
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:oKxGf.763019$_o.504139@attbi_s71...
>> (A)nyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place
>> when the plane is tied down, every time.
>
> Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?
>
> I've only used the "seat belt" method, when I remember -- and I always
> hate the way it cranks the stabilator up into the air.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Chilcoat]

We use a bungie cord that hooks to the brake rod on the right rudder pedal
on the pilot's side, loops once around the right horn of the pilot's yoke,
then around the left horn of the right-side yoke, and down to the left
rudder pedal rod on that side. Basically it does what the seatbelt method
does, but leaves a bit of compliance so if someone tows the plane with it
on, no damage is done. You need a fairly long bungie, but this seems to
work well. The loops around the yoke horns are because our bungie is just a
bit too long. OTOH, we ended up with a cracked support bracket, so perhaps
we need to rethink this.
--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:oKxGf.763019$_o.504139@attbi_s71...
>> (A)nyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place
>> when the plane is tied down, every time.
>
> Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?
>
> I've only used the "seat belt" method, when I remember -- and I always
> hate the way it cranks the stabilator up into the air.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[zatatime]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:25:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> (A)nyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place
>> when the plane is tied down, every time.
>
>Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?
>
>I've only used the "seat belt" method, when I remember -- and I always hate
>the way it cranks the stabilator up into the air.


In your 235 you can slide the passenger seat up to about the 2nd to
closest position and then fold the seat back forward and lean it up
against the yoke. Play with the seat position and you will find the
one that looks like it was designed to do this. Been doing this for
about 6 years w/o any problems.

HTH.
z

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: > (A)nyone who has a Cherokee needs to make sure the gust lock is in place
: > when the plane is tied down, every time.

: Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?

: I've only used the "seat belt" method, when I remember -- and I always hate
: the way it cranks the stabilator up into the air.

I've been doing the bungee cord trick as the other poster. I don't like the
seat belt trick because it puts the trailing edge of the tail in the air and
makes it easier for water to run in. I just run the bungee from the brake lever to
the left yoke (around once), and to the right yoke. It keeps a little tension on the
brake, but not enough the damage if towed as others have suggested. Never thought
about going all the way down to the rudder pedal, but doesn't seem like it would be
necessary since it's rigged with the nosewheel.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[JJS]

> wrote in message ...
> I've been doing the bungee cord trick as the other poster. I don't like the
> seat belt trick because it puts the trailing edge of the tail in the air and
> makes it easier for water to run in. I just run the bungee from the brake lever to
> the left yoke (around once), and to the right yoke. It keeps a little tension on the
> brake, but not enough the damage if towed as others have suggested. Never thought
> about going all the way down to the rudder pedal, but doesn't seem like it would be
> necessary since it's rigged with the nosewheel.
>
> -Cory
>
I use two bungee cords, similar to what Bob and Cory are doing. One between yokes and another from the right yoke to
the rudder pedals. Bob, what bracket broke on yours?

Joe Schneider
N8437R



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[[email protected]]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:39:53 -0500, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>My Hershey-Bar wing Archer is in for annual. Today they found a crack in
>the left wing aileron bellcrank support. Sounds dangerous. It's going to
>need replacing. Any idea if this is as big a job as it sounds like? Will
>the wing skins need to come off? Anyplace I can find a drawing of the
>structure online? Thanks.

Sorry I missed this yesterday, but it sounds like your guy's got
things figured out.

We use to keep a couple of OEM doublers & inspection panels in stock
for access on constant-chord Pipers. Way back when there were
instructions in the maint. manual that essentially told you if you
maintained the "factory" spacing from other structural components, you
could add an access panel if you needed to.

Of course, as you found out, popping a fuel tank gives quite a bit of
access.

Honestly, the only bellcrank brackets I can remember changing was on
an ooooold PA28 (both sides were cracked), am thinking that they were
a slightly different design than yours.

Really sucks that I'm forgetting some of this stuff. if you don't use
it-you lose it I guess.

Only real excitement I've had lately was a hung-start yesterday
afternoon. Freakin' turbines do spoil you, it's real easy to get used
to flipping a switch and watching the dumb thing start itself...

TC

[BTIZ]

> Steve adds a small doubler to the factory part, which adds a bit of extra
> metal thickness to the first two rivets and which should reduce the
> likelihood of it happening again.

He can do this without a Factory Mod or Field 337? adding metal to the
bracket?
I know he can change the part.

BT

[Jay Honeck]

> In your 235 you can slide the passenger seat up to about the 2nd to
> closest position and then fold the seat back forward and lean it up
> against the yoke. Play with the seat position and you will find the
> one that looks like it was designed to do this. Been doing this for
> about 6 years w/o any problems.

Before we got the seats re-done in leather, that worked pretty well.

Now, they're too "tight" or something -- they won't stay leaned forward
against the yoke. We've tinkered with leaning the seat forward, and
buckling the seat belt behind it, but finally said "to heck with it" and
went to lunch...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[zatatime]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:03:52 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> In your 235 you can slide the passenger seat up to about the 2nd to
>> closest position and then fold the seat back forward and lean it up
>> against the yoke. Play with the seat position and you will find the
>> one that looks like it was designed to do this. Been doing this for
>> about 6 years w/o any problems.
>
>Before we got the seats re-done in leather, that worked pretty well.
>
>Now, they're too "tight" or something -- they won't stay leaned forward
>against the yoke. We've tinkered with leaning the seat forward, and
>buckling the seat belt behind it, but finally said "to heck with it" and
>went to lunch...


Well, it was worth a shot. Maybe eventually the seats will wear in.

z

[Dave]

Ummmm... I DONT like the sound of this..

I NEVER felt good about the seat belt "gust lock", racking the
controls hard against the stops like that..

I got one of the locks made by
"Airplane Things" (they advertise in Piper Cherokee group magazine)

Clean and neat, very secure and dosn't "rack" the ailerons against the
stops..
..
For a whole 35 'merican bucks..

Works great!

(and no, I don't own the company) :)

Dave

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:22:04 GMT, wrote:

>On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 18:39:53 -0500, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:
>
>>My Hershey-Bar wing Archer is in for annual. Today they found a crack in
>>the left wing aileron bellcrank support. Sounds dangerous. It's going to
>>need replacing. Any idea if this is as big a job as it sounds like? Will
>>the wing skins need to come off? Anyplace I can find a drawing of the
>>structure online? Thanks.
>
>Sorry I missed this yesterday, but it sounds like your guy's got
>things figured out.
>
>We use to keep a couple of OEM doublers & inspection panels in stock
>for access on constant-chord Pipers. Way back when there were
>instructions in the maint. manual that essentially told you if you
>maintained the "factory" spacing from other structural components, you
>could add an access panel if you needed to.
>
>Of course, as you found out, popping a fuel tank gives quite a bit of
>access.
>
>Honestly, the only bellcrank brackets I can remember changing was on
>an ooooold PA28 (both sides were cracked), am thinking that they were
>a slightly different design than yours.
>
>Really sucks that I'm forgetting some of this stuff. if you don't use
>it-you lose it I guess.
>
>Only real excitement I've had lately was a hung-start yesterday
>afternoon. Freakin' turbines do spoil you, it's real easy to get used
>to flipping a switch and watching the dumb thing start itself...
>
>TC

[Jay Honeck]

> I got one of the locks made by
> "Airplane Things" (they advertise in Piper Cherokee group magazine)

Do they have a website?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave]

Yes....

Try.....

http://www.airplanethings.com/

Cannot order on line, but can DL a PDF order form..

I'm impatient, so I called them, they shipped same day. Good quality,
works as advertised.

Holds Ailerons neutral, Stabilator full down.

Dave



Hadda call them (toll free) On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:49:20 GMT, "Jay
Honeck" > wrote:

>> I got one of the locks made by
>> "Airplane Things" (they advertise in Piper Cherokee group magazine)
>
>Do they have a website?

[Jay Honeck]

> Try.....
>
> http://www.airplanethings.com/

Boy, there's not much too it. Looks like something we could make, no?

(Mary's already made custom-fitted nose-blankets from cheap sleeping bags
and velcro that are better than anything I've seen. Cost: $18 plus labor.
And we made a set of our own window reflectors from a roll of silver
air-bubble insulation that are as good as anything I've seen. Cost: $10,
plus labor.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave]

Agreed...

But by the time I scrounged up the stuff needed, and measured etc.
etc...

The price is modest, and it is high quality and works /looks great..
Cheers!

Nice product.. IMHO :)

Dave




On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:44:38 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Try.....
>>
>> http://www.airplanethings.com/
>
>Boy, there's not much too it. Looks like something we could make, no?
>
>(Mary's already made custom-fitted nose-blankets from cheap sleeping bags
>and velcro that are better than anything I've seen. Cost: $18 plus labor.
>And we made a set of our own window reflectors from a roll of silver
>air-bubble insulation that are as good as anything I've seen. Cost: $10,
>plus labor.)

[Bob Chilcoat]

I didn't ask about how he can do this without some sort of approval. I was
actually more interested in whether or not this extra metal will transfer
the weakest point to the rib from the bracket. Ribs are a lot more
difficult to replace. OTOH, it took 32 years and over 6,000 hours for the
crack to develop in the bracket, so it doesn't seem to be a major problem.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:aMSGf.57101$V.35747@fed1read04...
>> Steve adds a small doubler to the factory part, which adds a bit of extra
>> metal thickness to the first two rivets and which should reduce the
>> likelihood of it happening again.
>
> He can do this without a Factory Mod or Field 337? adding metal to the
> bracket?
> I know he can change the part.
>
> BT
>

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Just curious -- what kind of "gust lock" do you use on your Cherokee?

$1.50 pin with a big ring on one end (Lowes). Big "Remove Before
Flight" banner attached. Works like a charm. Then again, the control
column and plastic housing have a hole drilled through them (like the
typical Brand-C plane). I've heard that some Pipers had a similar gust
lock as Brand-C but I've never seen one.

The strap that holds both yokes together and snaps to the throttle
quadrant seems to work ok (used one on a rental Archer before we bought
the Arrow). More play in the controls than I'd like but I'd use one of
them as opposed to the seat belt trick


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-IA Student
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)