A few thoughts on "Aircraft Engines" vs. the regular kind.

[Bret Ludwig]

1. I love the people who say they can buy an Aircraft Engine for some
small amount of money and bolt it on and go flying. What they mean is
that after decades of search they managed to flam some widow out of an
engine for a tenth market price, they bought some oddball no one wants,
or they have an engine that is such a mutt with no logs and bootleg
repairs even the airboaters eschew it. Good aircraft engines, such as
they are, are worth a lot of money if they are airworthy certificated
engines. If you have one, it's generally economically more
advantageously bolted on the front of a certificated aircraft.

We all know you can weld and machine about anything and all the little
tricks, or most of them anyway. There is no consistent source of safe
aircraft engines below market price. Even if you are willing to
generate very fictional logbooks, like most of the FBOs I know. It
isn't that hard.

2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
great for a lot of other things as well. Teledyne Continental and
Textron Lycoming have absolutely no interest in marketing or developing
their ridiculous museum pieces for any other markets whatsoever. The
reason is simple, no one likes being subject to ridicule. Which they
know would be the case.

3. "All the people who use an automotive conversion spend fifteen
thousand dollars anyway". You are comparing apples to oranges because
the guys spending like this are going all out and not doing any of
their own fabrication. And ignoring the fact that their per hour has to
be a lot cheaper because once done rebuilds have to be radically
cheaper.

4. "You are in all reality only going to fly it a few hundred hours
anyway". Well if that's the case, join a flying club (a real club) or
just rent an airplane.

There are others but that's enough for now.

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> 1. I love the people who say they can buy an Aircraft Engine for some
> small amount of money and bolt it on and go flying. What they mean is
> that after decades of search they managed to flam some widow out of an
> engine for a tenth market price, they bought some oddball no one wants,
> or they have an engine that is such a mutt with no logs and bootleg
> repairs even the airboaters eschew it.


Your ignorance never fails to amaze, maybe that is what you do to
people so you assume that is what all people do. (shakes head in disbelief)


Jerry

I would rather hunt with Dick Cheany
than ride with Ted Kennedy

[JStricker]

Long stroke, slow turning engines ARE still used and designed all the time
in agricultural, industrial, and marine applications. It all depends on
where you want your peak torque at. In an aircraft engine, the best prop
efficiency trade-off is in the 2200 - 2500 rpm range and the most efficient
way to transmit power is via direct drive, hence engines are designed for
the applications in which they are used.

John Stricker

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>
> 2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
> light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
> great for a lot of other things as well. Teledyne Continental and
> Textron Lycoming have absolutely no interest in marketing or developing
> their ridiculous museum pieces for any other markets whatsoever. The
> reason is simple, no one likes being subject to ridicule. Which they
> know would be the case.
>

[CyberSam]

"Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
...

> Your ignorance never fails to amaze, maybe that is what you do to
> people so you assume that is what all people do. (shakes head in
disbelief)
>
>
> Jerry
>
> I would rather hunt with Dick Cheany
> than ride with Ted Kennedy

Who's Dick Cheany??

[Capt.Doug]

>"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message > What they mean is
> that after decades of search they managed to flam some widow out of an
> engine for a tenth market price, they bought some oddball no one wants,
> or they have an engine that is such a mutt with no logs and bootleg
> repairs even the airboaters eschew it.

Not neccessarily. I recently passed on a pair of IO-540s with original logs
for $8000US because I have no place for them. They were still attached to a
bunch of airframe parts.

> 2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
> light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
> great for a lot of other things as well. Teledyne Continental and
> Textron Lycoming have absolutely no interest in marketing or developing
> their ridiculous museum pieces for any other markets whatsoever. The
> reason is simple, no one likes being subject to ridicule. Which they
> know would be the case.

What other applications would be appropiate for air cooling? Keep it simple.

> 3. "All the people who use an automotive conversion spend fifteen
> thousand dollars anyway". You are comparing apples to oranges because
> the guys spending like this are going all out and not doing any of
> their own fabrication. And ignoring the fact that their per hour has to
> be a lot cheaper because once done rebuilds have to be radically
> cheaper.

Apples to oranges? The bottom line is cost to get the project airworthy and
reliable. Wether it's spent on an orange engine or an apple engine, it's
still spent on motive power. They're both fruits.

> 4. "You are in all reality only going to fly it a few hundred hours
> anyway". Well if that's the case, join a flying club (a real club) or
> just rent an airplane.

Justify whatever you have to. Rationalize whatever you have to. Bottom line
is that I'm going to do what I want just because I can. I don't give a f**k
about what anyone thinks.

D.

[Bret Ludwig]

JStricker wrote:
> Long stroke, slow turning engines ARE still used and designed all the time
> in agricultural, industrial, and marine applications. It all depends on
> where you want your peak torque at. In an aircraft engine, the best prop
> efficiency trade-off is in the 2200 - 2500 rpm range and the most efficient
> way to transmit power is via direct drive, hence engines are designed for
> the applications in which they are used.
>
Where are the long stroke, slow turning gas small boat engines?

In museums. Inboards ALL use autoderivative engines and ahve for
almost 50 years

[Rob Turk]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> 2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
> light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
> great for a lot of other things as well. Teledyne Continental and
> Textron Lycoming have absolutely no interest in marketing or developing
> their ridiculous museum pieces for any other markets whatsoever. The
> reason is simple, no one likes being subject to ridicule. Which they
> know would be the case.
>

Thank you for these pearls of wisdom. I'll go back and rip my brand new,
large displacement, slow turning, low parts count Jabiru 3300 from my kit
right away and replace it with a Rotax screamer at 5000 rpm, heavy gearbox
in front, three-way oil/water/air cooling labyrinth of pipes and tubes. I'm
in your debt...

Rob

[John]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

>
> JStricker wrote:
>> Long stroke, slow turning engines ARE still used and designed all the
>> time
>> in agricultural, industrial, and marine applications. It all depends on
>> where you want your peak torque at. In an aircraft engine, the best prop
>> efficiency trade-off is in the 2200 - 2500 rpm range and the most
>> efficient way to transmit power is via direct drive, hence engines are
>> designed for the applications in which they are used.
>>
> Where are the long stroke, slow turning gas small boat engines?
>
> In museums. Inboards ALL use autoderivative engines and ahve for
> almost 50 years

Small boat motors turn small "props" at high speeds for usually not long
periods of time. Besides cooling is usually not a problem with a large
supply of cooling fluid! ;-)
John

[Vaughn]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Air cooled engines are now no longer made because of, well,
> obsolescence, except toys for yupsters like Harley Davidson.

Air cooled engines no longer made? Look around you. Take a peek at your
lawnmower for example. Then go find a brand new piston Cezzna and squint under
the cowl.

Vaughn

[Kyle Boatright]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...

Aha! The old "I don't have a Valentine's date, so I'll go trolling on the
internet" post...

[Jerry Springer]

CyberSam wrote:
> "Jerry Springer" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>Your ignorance never fails to amaze, maybe that is what you do to
>>people so you assume that is what all people do. (shakes head in
>
> disbelief)
>
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>I would rather hunt with Dick Cheany
>>than ride with Ted Kennedy
>
>
> Who's Dick Cheany??
>
>
That is the new guy that you come up with when you type slower than you
think, but then you knew who I meant didn't you. :)

[[email protected]]

>> Air cooled engines are now no longer made because of, well,
>> obsolescence, except toys for yupsters like Harley Davidson.


> Air cooled engines no longer made? Look around you. Take a peek at your
>lawnmower for example. Then go find a brand new piston Cezzna and squint under
>the cowl.

>Vaughn

Or any other brand-new certified piston airplane or
helicopter. Is Continental even still building that liquid-cooled
Voyager engine, and where is it used? Check any turbine engine, whether
it's a turboprop, jet or turboshaft: all aircooled.

Dan

[JStricker]

Where did I say anything about small gas boat engines?

John Stricker

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Where are the long stroke, slow turning gas small boat engines?
>
> In museums. Inboards ALL use autoderivative engines and ahve for
> almost 50 years
>

[Montblack]

("Jerry Springer" wrote)
> I would rather hunt with Dick Cheany
> than ride with Ted Kennedy


Then there's:
The Dick Cheney / Bobby Knight Memorial Hunting Expedition.
Memorial for who?
You'll see...

(Ducking and running ...."Serpentine Shelly. Serpentine!" <g>)


Montblack
You've got to love a press corps getting Buck Shot and Bird Shot wrong
....for 36 hours!! The clue is in the name, folks. Bambi's dad (a buck) vs.
Tweety Bird (a bird).

Sheldon: There's no reason to shoot at me, I'm a dentist.
The In-Laws (1979)

[Richard Lamb]

the irony of it all....

Texas Parks & Wildlife magazine - November 2005

On the cover -
Why group hunts are more efficient - and more fun.

And on page 22/23 -

A double page centerfold of a fat guy in an orange vest
raising his shotgun - and a pheasant climbing for dear life -
straight lined up with the camera!

[Roger]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:59:37 -0600, "JStricker" >
wrote:

>Where did I say anything about small gas boat engines?

I take it you were talking about *real* boats, right John?<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Sitting here, running off the generator as the ice storm has dumped
the power for a wide area here near Midland MI.

>
>John Stricker
>
>"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> Where are the long stroke, slow turning gas small boat engines?
>>
>> In museums. Inboards ALL use autoderivative engines and ahve for
>> almost 50 years
>>
>

[JStricker]

I was actually thinking what I wrote......MARINE.........so yep, you're
right, I was thinking SHIPS, not boats.

John Stricker

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 06:59:37 -0600, "JStricker" >
> wrote:
>
>>Where did I say anything about small gas boat engines?
>
> I take it you were talking about *real* boats, right John?<:-))
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
> Sitting here, running off the generator as the ice storm has dumped
> the power for a wide area here near Midland MI.
>
>>
>>John Stricker
>>
>>"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>
>>> Where are the long stroke, slow turning gas small boat engines?
>>>
>>> In museums. Inboards ALL use autoderivative engines and ahve for
>>> almost 50 years
>>>
>>

[[email protected]]

>I was actually thinking what I wrote......MARINE.........so yep, you're
>right, I was thinking SHIPS, not boats

Convert THIS one for your airplane:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Dan

[Scott Rodriguez]

> 2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
> light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
> great for a lot of other things as well.

Why should they be "great for a lot of other things?"

Not sure how you can make that jump...

[[email protected]]

> 2. If the Lycoming and Continental paradigm of large displacement
> light slow turning engine was so great for aircraft, they would be
> great for a lot of other things as well.

Airboats.
Hovercraft.
Tanks (some WWII tanks used a radial aircooled engine, which some
homebuilders converted for their airplanes).
APUs (Lyc O-290-G).
Helicopters.
Cars (Franklin, VW, Corvair, Tucker, and others, though the RPM was
higher, as it is in the same basic aircraft engines that are used in
helicopters).

Dan

[Ian Stirling]

wrote:
>>I was actually thinking what I wrote......MARINE.........so yep, you're
>>right, I was thinking SHIPS, not boats
>
> Convert THIS one for your airplane:
>
> http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Hmm.
108000HP/2300 tons.
So, around 46hp/ton.

I don't exactly know how this compares with current aero engines, but I
do know that it's about the same as my car, including me!