ASK 21 spin ballast installation

[Marc Arsenault]

Hello all,

We have just ordered a spin ballast kit (Tn 4a) for our ASK 21 from
Schleicher. Can anyone relate their installation experience before we,
pardon the pun, auger in? Specifically about the drilling the 12mm hole and
the fiberglass cloth lamination. For those curious, I shall convey back our
own dealing once the exercise complete.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault
Aéroclub des Cantons de l'Est

[Marc Arsenault]

Hello all,

For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
days ago.

The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.

Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
for us.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault

PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
sort, I need to transmit a personal note.

[Charles Yeates]

Marc

A PW-6, competitor to the ASK 21, needs no ballast weights -- climbs
better too.
>
> For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
> is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
> hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
> works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
> days ago.
>
> The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
> important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
> small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
> to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
> surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
> familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
> work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.
>
> Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
> equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
> for us.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc Arsenault
>
> PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
> sort, I need to transmit a personal note.
>
>
>

--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

[Marc Arsenault]

Charles,

Thank you for your reply. It was completely off topic.

Regards

Marc Arsenault

[NoSpam]

Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.



wrote:
> Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage over the ASK-21
> because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights? Rrrright....
> what an advantage.
>
> If that is actually true than I would not teach flying lessons in the
> PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their first solo
> flight...
>
> Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was this just a
> misplaced reply for the "most ugliest gliders in the world"-thread? :-)
>

[Eric Greenwell]

NoSpam wrote:
> Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable" gliders has to be one
> of the the most reckless and dangerous things done... How do you expect
> someone to learn how to fly safely when they are not taught to do so
> from the beginning. If students are exposed to the danger from day one,
> made aware of it, and taught how to recognize it they will inherently
> become safer pilots, and will not be surprised when they get into a
> glider that does spin. The PW-6, and for that fact ANY training glider
> that does spin do definitely have an advantage over the ASK-21. If a
> student doesn't have to worry about inadvertently putting the glider
> into a spin "because the tail ballast is out" they won't pay attention
> to how well they are flying, and that is definitely dangerous.

The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!), so it seems evidence
for this belief should be available. Do you know of any statistics that
suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely to have
spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?

I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents during training, so
one would have to balance any extra risk after training against the
reduced risk during training.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[jcarlyle]

I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
"unspinnable" glider, I was taught "incipient spins" in a SGS-233. The
2-33 will spin, of course, but we never did that (probably because of
its age, but mainly because of Schweizer's letter stating not to spin
it). It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

How well did this training work? Well, a few weeks after I got my PPG I
took an introduction to aerobatics in a Blanik L13AC. First up were
spins - and I found my incipient spin training worked practically
automatically for recovering. Based on this experience, I would
categorically state that if I had ever found myself in a spin before
the aerobatics course, I would definitely have gotten out of it
(assuming I had the height, of course).

I don't really see how my situation would have changed if I was taught
in the ASK-21. There has never been any time during my flying career
that I haven't been paying attention to my flying. The danger of
stalling and/or spinning was always made abundantly clear to me, and
the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes for
countering either situation. The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't
matter....

-John

[Chuck Griswold]

>The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!),
>so it seems
evidence
>for this belief should be available. Do you know of
>any statistics that
>suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely
>to have
>spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?
>
>I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents
>during training, so
>one would have to balance any extra risk after training
>against the
>reduced risk during training.
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
>www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
>Sailplane
>Operation'

And the beat goes on...and on. Should we train for
situations that are not
required by the FARs. Seems to me that a FBO would
keep their trainer
around for solo rental and be able to spin it for training.
Ergo spin
weights. The best of both worlds.
Chuck

[John Doe]

At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
>Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
>over the ASK-21
>because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
>Rrrright....
>what an advantage.
>
>If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
>lessons in the
>PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
>first solo
>flight...
>
>Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
>this just a
>misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
>world'-thread? :-)
>
>

[Mark Lenox]

All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
spins. Just use something else.

I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.



Mark Lenox
CFIG


"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
> training, I'll bite.
>
> I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
> (both of which spin, although both produce variable
> results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
> I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
> these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
> careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
> I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).
>
> Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
> Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
> last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
> the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
> for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
> a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
> in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
> acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
> My response, taking example from what my instructors
> in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
> occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
> we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.
>
> Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
> 'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
> on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
> the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
> spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
> that (along with subsequent instructing).
>
> It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
> sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
> If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
> himself and if it had been on final turn....
>
> I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
> if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
> basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
> the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
> trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
> their first solo, you have not done your job as an
> instructor.
>
> Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
> are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
> you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
> bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
> least), so training them to keep within their limits
> involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
> situation.
>
> *Flame retardand suit on*
>
> Cheers
>
> Jamie Denton
>
>
> p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
> to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
> point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
> practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
> in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
> the field or not postponing starting circuit below
> 800ft for example).
> At 12:54 28 February 2006,
> wrote:
>>Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
>>over the ASK-21
>>because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
>>Rrrright....
>>what an advantage.
>>
>>If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
>>lessons in the
>>PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
>>first solo
>>flight...
>>
>>Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
>>this just a
>>misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
>>world'-thread? :-)
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Bullwinkle]

Getting into this conversation late, sorry.

At the Air Force Academy they used the ASK-21 for spin training (back in the
days when the 2-33 was their basic trainer). They had tables to determine
the exact amount of tail ballast to install based on pilot weights, and then
the thing spun like crazy. Without the weights, it is a good trainer for
all other purposes, and didn't spin so well.

It spun as well as the Lark IS-28B2 I used to instruct in. Quick entry,
wrapped up nice and tight, and made an honest recovery.

Agree with those who say spin training is essential, and the ASK-21 is a
good trainer for that, if configured properly.

Bullwinkle
CFIG

On 2/28/06 4:48 PM, in article , "Mark
Lenox" > wrote:

>
> All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
> in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
> really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
> spins. Just use something else.
>
> I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
> my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
> letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.
>
>
>
> Mark Lenox
> CFIG
>
>
> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> ...
>> At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
>> training, I'll bite.
>>
>> I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
>> (both of which spin, although both produce variable
>> results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
>> I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
>> these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
>> careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
>> I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).
>>
>> Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
>> Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
>> last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
>> the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
>> for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
>> a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
>> in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
>> acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
>> My response, taking example from what my instructors
>> in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
>> occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
>> we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.
>>
>> Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
>> 'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
>> on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
>> the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
>> spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
>> that (along with subsequent instructing).
>>
>> It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
>> sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
>> If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
>> himself and if it had been on final turn....
>>
>> I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
>> if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
>> basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
>> the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
>> trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
>> their first solo, you have not done your job as an
>> instructor.
>>
>> Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
>> are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
>> you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
>> bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
>> least), so training them to keep within their limits
>> involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
>> situation.
>>
>> *Flame retardand suit on*
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Jamie Denton
>>
>>
>> p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
>> to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
>> point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
>> practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
>> in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
>> the field or not postponing starting circuit below
>> 800ft for example).
>> At 12:54 28 February 2006,
>> wrote:
>>> Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
>>> over the ASK-21
>>> because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
>>> Rrrright....
>>> what an advantage.
>>>
>>> If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
>>> lessons in the
>>> PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
>>> first solo
>>> flight...
>>>
>>> Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
>>> this just a
>>> misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
>>> world'-thread? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[PB]

wrote:
> Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage over the ASK-21
> because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights? Rrrright....
> what an advantage.
>
> If that is actually true than I would not teach flying lessons in the
> PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their first solo
> flight...
>
> Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was this just a
> misplaced reply for the "most ugliest gliders in the world"-thread? :-)
>
Well you could always put it on chocks and teach them that way. Very
safe then.

BTW do you have some hard evidence to suggest that students and
instructors are killing themselves spinning in in "spinable" gliders,
particularly if not practicing spinning? If not, then lets not
disseminate fear.

If you think the risk is to great perhaps you should question whether
instructing is for you.

Paul

[Stefan]

Mark Lenox wrote:

> I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.

*If* you have something else at your hands.

Fact is, many European clubs have the ASK 21 as primary trainer and
nothing else. Besides, I think it's a good idea to practice spins in a
glider which the student already knows. You can combine this with an
impressive demonstration how glider characteristics change with CofG.
And last but not least, the ASK 21 spins wonderfully with that tail
ballast. I don't see any disadvantages.

Stefan

[Bruce]

>I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
>if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
>basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
>the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
>trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
>their first solo, you have not done your job as an
>instructor.

Jamie, I agree.

The standard at the club I learned at was to only teach spin recognition and
recovery. We have Bergfalkes for trainers, with post solo types getting advanced
training in a Blanik L13.

Consider this scenario:

The Bergfalke will theoretically spin, although we do not permit intentional
spins in them. Bloggs has made the old 1956 'III shudder and shake at 56km/h
indicated and the yaw string all over the place 'thermalling' in training.
Without an aerobatic entry, she simply refuses to even enter an incipient spin.

Bloggs is a little ham fisted but gets sent solo after a couple of demonstrated
incipient recoveries in the L13.

A couple of months later Bloggs is flying at a different club, or with a K13 and
a hoary old CFI. Said CFI is well endowed with large amounts of RLC (Rat Like
Cunning) and a wicked sense of humour. Or Bloggs gets to fly with me, who
learned something from such a CFI. So Bloggs gets to do a check flight and is
swanning about a little sloppily, but perfectly safely. CFI gets Bloggs to
initiate a gentle turn and distracts him while surreptitiously moving the trim
lever back. Then the speed bleeds off and the "reasonably coordinated" turn is
now over ruddered. People are suggestible so - At the precise/appropriate moment
the instructor only has to complain pointedly about the yaw string, while
mentioning too little bank as the problem (as opposed to too much rudder) and
Bloggs does the rest. Mind goes, observe yaw string is in the outside corner,
leave the rudder where it is, and apply copious into turn aileron.

If you have timed it right the down going aileron stalls the outside wing, yaws
the nose up and you enter a spin around the outside wing. The root of which is
now partially in the lee of the fuselage, so the stall is over a large part of
the wing. This can be quite violent, even in a K13.

Bloggs has just learned you don't have to be cross controlled to spin, and that
you don't automatically apply rudder opposite to the direction you were turning,
unless you like the earth to rotate like that...

This is in a "docile" trainer.

This works best low down where the horizon is higher, or where you can make the
turn towards rising ground, so that Bloggs tends to raise the nose to keep the
apparent attitude constant. Unfamiliar terrain, or aircraft or other
distractions make it easier.

Our instruction patter emphasises well banked turns near the ground. The theory
being that there is less chance of a spin entry, and the recovery is much
quicker. All this is true, but the exercise above demonstrates that the pilot
who has set it up wrong can kill himself correcting a poorly executed low turn.

Good thing to be exposed to some instructors who know how to teach full spins
and recovery. That way you get to learn to think about recovery from the context
- aircraft type and configuration (C of G flaps? flapperons? ballast? engine
out? airbrakes?)
- meteorology (wind gradient? turbulence/rotor? curl over? ice?)
- how you entered the spin. (aerobatic? slow turn? thermalling? from level?)
- how the aircraft is spinning (flat? vertical? inverted? unstable?)

There are more but you get the idea.

The permutations all make the recovery different, best to know how to do this
before you are gyrating earthward...

I will never understand people who think it is sufficient to teach a single,
artificial incipient spin entry and recovery mode. Instructors should do a
propper job of teaching.

I am not personally particularly fond of spinning but I have made a point of
being as proficient as I can be in the types I fly. With understanding comes
safety. Put another way -- That way other people tend to be less nervous of you
being above them in a gaggle in a Cirrus ;-)

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

[Stefan]

I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail ballast to
demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary aerobatic training.

One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability: Docile
primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified for cloud flying.
One size fits all.


Stefan
(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin in an ASK 21 and who
gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)

[[email protected]]

> ASK-21 is unspinable.

??? Curious. I have two ASK-21s in Civil Air Patrol, Colorado wing.
While I do not go out of my way to do spins in them, they DO spin.
Recovery is straight forward in the normal way.

One of the ASK-21s came used from the Air Force Academy. It has
the weights and mounting hardward to "enhance" its spin characteristics.
I have never felt the need to use them... a student pilots practicing
stall recognition and recovery... with crossed controls is usually
able to enter the incipient spin all by them selves!

Best regards,

LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

--
LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, CO-Wing, Thompson Valley CS., Ft Collins, CO
CELL/VM: 970 231-6325, CELL Message: 9702316325<at>mmode.com
EMAIL: jer<at>frii.com WEB: WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Chuck Griswold]

At 09:25 01 March 2006, Stefan wrote:
>I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail
>ballast to
>demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary
>aerobatic
training.
>
>One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability:
>Docile
>primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified
>for cloud flying.
>One size fits all.
>
>
>Stefan
>(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin
>in an ASK 21 and
who
>gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)

Stefan
Now, you have my attention. Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics? The ASK flys well inverted and will spin
well inverted, all
without tail ballast. Why would you add tail ballast
for loops and rolls?
Sounds almost counter productive.
Chuck

[Stefan]

Chuck Griswold wrote:

> Why would you use tail
> ballast to instruct
> aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Stefan

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> Chuck Griswold wrote:
>
>> Why would you use tail
>> ballast to instruct
>> aerobatics?
>
> You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.
>
> I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
> without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

[Stefan]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
....

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

Stefan

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>> Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
> ...
>
> Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
> of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

True, but it is the kind of spin entry one might be looking at if one is
a bit ham-fisted coming out of a slipping turn to final...

[Don Johnstone]

At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Stefan wrote:
>> Chuck Griswold wrote:
>>
>>> Why would you use tail
>>> ballast to instruct
>>> aerobatics?
>>
>> You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.
>>
>> I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
>>to spin the 21
>> without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.
>
>Technique that has worked for me in just about every
>21 or 103 I've
>tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):
>
>Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
>normal, for purposes
>of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
>rudder, at same
>time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
>the controls,
>quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
>might have to play
>with the slip angle a bit...

Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
right very well because of the asymetric nature of
the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
very dramatic but after that it is very benign.
>

[phil collin]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>> Stefan wrote:
>>> Chuck Griswold wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why would you use tail
>>>> ballast to instruct
>>>> aerobatics?
>>> You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.
>>>
>>> I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
>>> to spin the 21
>>> without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.
>> Technique that has worked for me in just about every
>> 21 or 103 I've
>> tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):
>>
>> Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
>> normal, for purposes
>> of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
>> rudder, at same
>> time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
>> the controls,
>> quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
>> might have to play
>> with the slip angle a bit...
>
> Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
> stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
> right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
> right very well because of the asymetric nature of
> the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
> technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
> is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
> very dramatic but after that it is very benign.
>
>
>
There is a pretty good web site on this topic at
http://ocglider.com/Grob_spin_avis.htm
worth a look.

[Mark Lenox]

Wear a chute.

I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's. During that time, the
guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun in a Grob 103. Les is
an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot. He was intentionally
demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout for a new instructor.
If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used to spin the 103. The
spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the rear passenger
unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over the rear instrument
panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally that he would have
bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced they were not going
to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old good idea to wear one any
time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.


Mark


"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
>> Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
> ...
>
> Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind of
> spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.
>
> Stefan

[Chris Rollings]

Hard to imagine a spin that didn't exceed 60 degrees
of bank and 30 degrees of pitch at some point. Surely
that makes a chute mandatory under FAR's?

I had a spin go flat in a Grob Twin II (essentially
an early version of the Grob 103) when conducting aft
C of G spin tests for UK certification around 1980.
Didn't quite get to the point of unstrapping and leaning
forward, but it took about three turns of cycling the
stick back and forward to 'rock' it out (that's after
the point where it had flattened noticably and a normal
recovery hadn't worked). I was certainly close to
the decidion to bale out.

Careful re-weighing and re-calculation confirmed it
was on aft C of G, but not beyond. Communication with
the manufacturer produced a flat denial that any such
thing had occured during testing in Germany.

Further careful tests, approaching the same condition
gradually, over a number of flights, eventually resulted
in an uneventful spin and recovery with exactly the
same conditions of weight and balance as those when
the problem occurred.

'Rogue' spins are very rare, but they can occurr.
Most of the other accounts of them that I have heard
relate to normally very benign types, such as most
of the Grob varients.



At 00:30 03 March 2006, Mark Lenox wrote:
>
>Wear a chute.
>
>I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's.
> During that time, the
>guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun
>in a Grob 103. Les is
>an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot.
> He was intentionally
>demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout
>for a new instructor.
>If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used
>to spin the 103. The
>spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the
>rear passenger
>unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over
>the rear instrument
>panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally
>that he would have
>bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced
>they were not going
>to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old
>good idea to wear one any
>time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>'Stefan' wrote in message
...
>> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>>
>>> Technique that has worked for me in just about every
>>>21 or 103 I've
>> ...
>>
>> Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming.
>>Not exactly the kind of
>> spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program,
>>though.
>>
>> Stefan
>
>
>

[Stefan]

Mark Lenox wrote:

> Wear a chute.

*Always* wear a chute, not only when spinning! Aerobatics, even
spinning, is pretty safe compared with cross country flying.

In Europe, almost all glider pilots always wear chutes. Not because it's
mandatory (it's not, in most countries even not for aerobatics), but
because, well, just because we do. Over the years, those chutes have
saved many lives. Almost all bail outs were done after midairs, I'm not
aware of one caused by an unrecoverable spin.

Stefan

[Mark Lenox]

Chutes are not required for spin training if done by a flight instructor for
maneuvers required by the regulations for a particular certificate. FAR
91.307d2i

So, for one possible example, if you were getting the spin training
requirements taken care of in preparation for a CFI checkride (which
requires spin training), the parachute requirement is removed.

I always wear mine.

Mark


"Chris Rollings" > wrote in message
...
> Hard to imagine a spin that didn't exceed 60 degrees
> of bank and 30 degrees of pitch at some point. Surely
> that makes a chute mandatory under FAR's?
>
> I had a spin go flat in a Grob Twin II (essentially
> an early version of the Grob 103) when conducting aft
> C of G spin tests for UK certification around 1980.
> Didn't quite get to the point of unstrapping and leaning
> forward, but it took about three turns of cycling the
> stick back and forward to 'rock' it out (that's after
> the point where it had flattened noticably and a normal
> recovery hadn't worked). I was certainly close to
> the decidion to bale out.
>
> Careful re-weighing and re-calculation confirmed it
> was on aft C of G, but not beyond. Communication with
> the manufacturer produced a flat denial that any such
> thing had occured during testing in Germany.
>
> Further careful tests, approaching the same condition
> gradually, over a number of flights, eventually resulted
> in an uneventful spin and recovery with exactly the
> same conditions of weight and balance as those when
> the problem occurred.
>
> 'Rogue' spins are very rare, but they can occurr.
> Most of the other accounts of them that I have heard
> relate to normally very benign types, such as most
> of the Grob varients.
>
>
>
> At 00:30 03 March 2006, Mark Lenox wrote:
>>
>>Wear a chute.
>>
>>I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's.
>> During that time, the
>>guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun
>>in a Grob 103. Les is
>>an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot.
>> He was intentionally
>>demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout
>>for a new instructor.
>>If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used
>>to spin the 103. The
>>spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the
>>rear passenger
>>unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over
>>the rear instrument
>>panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally
>>that he would have
>>bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced
>>they were not going
>>to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old
>>good idea to wear one any
>>time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.
>>
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>'Stefan' wrote in message
...
>>> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Technique that has worked for me in just about every
>>>>21 or 103 I've
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming.
>>>Not exactly the kind of
>>> spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program,
>>>though.
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Jack]

jcarlyle wrote:
> I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
> "unspinnable" glider...we never did that....

> It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
> when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

> ...I would categorically state that if I had ever found myself
> in a spin...I would definitely have gotten out of it
> (assuming I had the height)....

> There has never been any time during my flying career
> that I haven't been paying attention to my flying.

> ...the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes....

> The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't matter.


Wow John,

Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.

It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.

Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.


Jack
(still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

[jcarlyle]

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

As you point out, I'm a believer in positive thinking. But I temper
this faith by seeking out knowledge regarding potentially dangerous
airborne situations, taking away a lesson from each flight, and
respecting how easily flying can kill those who don't think. I try to
fly relaxed but alert, and I don't push any envelopes nor do I take
chances.

I submit that a positive attitude is safer than cowering in the
cockpit, shaking and hyperventilating, and fearing the plane will
betray me at any second. The reply that you quoted from me was written
to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?

-John

Jack wrote:
> Wow John,
>
> Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.
>
> It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
> to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
> each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
> tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.
>
> Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.
>
>
> Jack
> (still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

[Jack]

jcarlyle wrote:

> Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
> milestones.

Yours, perhaps. You missed mine. I'll be happy to get a mere thousand in
Gliders.


> The reply that you quoted from me was written
> to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
> gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
> done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

He could be right. I've never instructed in Gliders: perhaps he has. I
believe in spin training, but there are respected opinions on both sides
of the issue. People will kill themselves in any aspect of the game --
usually from the same basic cause of not being well prepared for
whatever it is they encounter. When they move up to a readily spinnable
single-seater, and I understand there are some, it might be a huge
advantage to have spun something, even one of the more docile
two-seaters, earlier in their experience.

You report that confidence in your ability to deal with spins and other
aircraft control issues was cemented when you finally did spins -- if I
have read you correctly. That sounds like a recommendation for a
spinnable trainer to me. You were just a little delayed in getting that
phase of your training.


> I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
> fly?

"Nospam" didn't say anything about being afraid, and I doubt he
advocates it. I can't remember being afraid in an aircraft, though there
have been several instances of "heightened alertness" along the way. I
have noted through the years that some people are afraid of being afraid.

You say there never has been a time when you were not paying attention
to your flying, but eventually there will be -- unless you quit
prematurely, or simply don't take on many challenges. I hope it won't
surprise you too much.


Jack

[jcarlyle]

Good one, Jack! I'm sorry I missed the party; with your sense of humor
I'm sure it would have been fun time.

But I feel I'm missing something in your advice. You've said twice now
(I'm paraphrasing) to be prepared, that something unexpected will
happen someplace, sometime that I'll have to deal with, and you hope
I'll be ready. With all due respect to your 10,000 hours (and how many
multiples, one wonders), I don't see how that is actionable advice.

Let me turn the tables a bit. Things have changed for you, now that
you're gliding. No simulators to test your skills safely, no full-time
mechanics to care for the aircraft. You've certainly got the flight
experience, but I submit that much of it isn't transferable to what
you're doing now (deliberately flying near stall in turbulent
conditions, perhaps within dozens of feet of a ridge, with no "go"
handle to get you out of trouble).

What are you doing in your new flying career to prepare for the
unexpected, Jack? I'm not joshing you, I really want to know how you're
implementing the advice you gave me.

-John


Jack wrote:
> jcarlyle wrote:
>
> > Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
> > milestones.
>
> Yours, perhaps. You missed mine. I'll be happy to get a mere thousand in
> Gliders.
>
> Jack

[Jack]

jcarlyle wrote:

> Things have changed for you, now that you're gliding.

Only the mission, the money, and the people change.


> You've certainly got the flight experience, but I submit that much
> of it isn't transferable to what you're doing now....

There's the outline of a potentially interesting topic. What with
patience wearing thin and those of us still with snow on the ground
hoping that the new season is only a few weeks away, it will be a lot
better than casting aspersions on somebody else's glider's esthetics.

Active and retired professional pilots on this list, with both military
and civilian experience, who in addition have a lot more experience with
sailplanes than I, might have some fascinating comments. You'll notice
though, if you are here for awhile, that those with the most to tell
don't like to talk too much about themselves, or about what the rest of
us would call their considerable accomplishments.

But for me, I think all flight experience remains relevant as long as
you can climb, walk, or be lowered into the cockpit. The physical
changes with age add some new challenges and reduce some abilities, but
that's not news. And that's one of the nice things about sailplanes:
they go real slow.

All the things that I've done before, and everything I've experienced in
light planes, fighters, and airliners, relate in some way to all the
things I do in a sailplane. But, I can do some things in a glider that I
could not do in an F-100, in a 757, or in a Cessna. When it comes to
flight experience, it's all additive, John, though not necessarily
linear. Some of the pieces do have to be combined in new ways. Perhaps
one can't really know that, though, without personal experience of some
of the many uses to which we put aircraft.


> ...(deliberately flying near stall in turbulent conditions,
> perhaps within dozens of feet of a ridge, with no "go" handle
> to get you out of trouble).

You've actually just described common phases of fighter and FAC
missions, John, but even so we can't ignore all the hours spent between
rotation and clean-up and in the flare over forty years, day and night
and in all sorts of weather. One does learn a little something that way.
And about that so-called "go" handle: the only time I ever thought much
about it was in making sure the safety pins were in before getting in or
out of the cockpit. Only four of the types in my logbook had such handy
devices, so I don't miss them very much. And anyway, they can only save
you from your smaller mistakes.


> What are you doing in your new flying career to prepare for the
> unexpected...?

I want to keep an open mind about the airplane, the weather, and my own
ability; learn something new on every flight; take on a new challenge,
or three, very season; listen more than talk, and always have a plan B,
and C. It's a LOT more fun that way.

However, preparing for the unexpected is a contradiction. You can only
prepare for those things you are willing to admit can happen. That's the
value of experience, perhaps. It's easier not only to admit that
anything is possible, but to actually believe it.

And now you've made me stay up far too late for an old guy, so good
night -- and good luck.


Jack

[PB]

Well I for one am pleased that you have Jack, I have enjoyed the read,
thank you.

Paul
Jack wrote:
--- Snip ---
> And now you've made me stay up far too late for an old guy, so good
> night -- and good luck.
>
>
> Jack

[jcarlyle]

Thank you, Jack, for taking the time to write a most informative reply.
I understand your previous comments better, and I see that I
interpreted them incorrectly.

Your "good night and good luck" closing is especially apt.
Paraphrasing you again, flying has at its base the phrase "that which
doesn't kill you makes you a better pilot". At least, I think this
fits with your comments about non-linearity in learning, the need to
always have a plan B and C, and the acquired ability to actually
believe that anything is possible.

The trouble is that this mode of learning is extremely hard on low time
pilots like myself. Of course we get the fundamentals from our
instructors and our textbooks, plus more from reading accident reports
and anecdotes and taking periodic rides with an instructor, but I think
there's so much more that we neophytes could learn from those who
have paid their dues in the cockpit. However, you identified the
problem yourself: your intention is to "listen more than talk" in
a field in which "those with the most to tell don't like to talk too
much about themselves, or about what the rest of us would call their
considerable accomplishments".

Do you have any thoughts on how we newbies might lower this barrier,
Jack? My idea involves plying you with your favorite beverage in a low
key setting, but you're a rarity in that you'll say something to a
stranger. Heck, I wasn't even able to get my own Dad, who flew for the
Navy in WWII, to give me the benefit of his experience by talking about
what he'd learned..

Have fun, fly safe, and good luck to you, Jack.

-John

Jack wrote:
> There's the outline of a potentially interesting topic.
>
> Active and retired professional pilots on this list, with both military
> and civilian experience, who in addition have a lot more experience with
> sailplanes than I, might have some fascinating comments. You'll notice
> though, if you are here for awhile, that those with the most to tell
> don't like to talk too much about themselves, or about what the rest of
> us would call their considerable accomplishments.
>
> I want to keep an open mind about the airplane, the weather, and my own
> ability; learn something new on every flight; take on a new challenge,
> or three, very season; listen more than talk, and always have a plan B,
> and C. It's a LOT more fun that way.
>
> However, preparing for the unexpected is a contradiction. You can only
> prepare for those things you are willing to admit can happen. That's the
> value of experience, perhaps. It's easier not only to admit that
> anything is possible, but to actually believe it.
>
> Jack

[NoSpam]

>
> I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
> fly?
>

I think you misunderstood me, I love spinning.. it's not about being
afraid, it is about being aware and prepared, if someone learned how to
fly in a glider that did not spin, then gets into a glider that does
and continues to fly it like the trainer that did not spin, they will
have problems...

[Jack]

jcarlyle wrote:

> The trouble is that this mode of learning is extremely hard on low time
> pilots like myself. Of course we get the fundamentals from our
> instructors and our textbooks, plus more from reading accident reports
> and anecdotes and taking periodic rides with an instructor, but I think
> there's so much more that we neophytes could learn from those who
> have paid their dues in the cockpit.

I don't know of any shortcuts, John. The head and the hands generally
learn together, at least in my case. Though I can describe someone I
want you to meet, and introduce her, you can't really get to know each
other until I leave the two of you alone.

Glider clubs always need instructors. You'd be in the air a lot, you
think harder about things when you try to teach them, and you'd learn
there are more ways than you might have expected to approach a problem
-- and make it even worse. You'll also learn that the student often has
something to teach you, sometimes even about flying the aircraft.


> Do you have any thoughts on how we newbies might lower this barrier,
> Jack? My idea involves plying you with your favorite beverage in a low
> key setting....

Insight can't be bought, but ply me with assembly, a free tow, and
disassembly, and you'll find out that I can be had.


> I wasn't even able to get my own Dad, who flew for the Navy in WWII,
> to give me the benefit of his experience by talking about what he'd
> learned.

Using an airplane as a weapon is more than just flying one aggressively.
He probably hoped you'd have no need of the knowledge, or perhaps he
thought that what he'd learned couldn't be translated. That's not rare.


Jack

[jcarlyle]

Jack, you say you haven't instructed in gliders, but I think you
really should - you've got an extremely good way of explaining
things! As for me, I've got a whole lot to learn about flying before
anyone should want to learn from me - maybe someday, though.

I believe you are correct with your comment that my Dad probably hoped
that I'd have no need of his wartime knowledge. I'll never know,
now, but a comment he made 15 years ago leads me to believe you're
right.

I'd be glad to help with assembly, disassembly and pay for your tow
someday, Jack. I think I'd be getting more from the bargain, but just
let me know via e-mail what glider ports you hang out at.

It's been nice talking to you - I've gained some useful insights.
Thanks for starting the conversation!

-John

Jack wrote:
>
> Glider clubs always need instructors. You'd be in the air a lot, you
> think harder about things when you try to teach them, and you'd learn
> there are more ways than you might have expected to approach a problem
> -- and make it even worse. You'll also learn that the student often has
> something to teach you, sometimes even about flying the aircraft.
>
> Insight can't be bought, but ply me with assembly, a free tow, and
> disassembly, and you'll find out that I can be had.
>
> Using an airplane as a weapon is more than just flying one aggressively.
> He probably hoped you'd have no need of the knowledge, or perhaps he
> thought that what he'd learned couldn't be translated. That's not rare.
>
>
> Jack