ASK 21 spin ballast installation

Hello all,

We have just ordered a spin ballast kit (Tn 4a) for our ASK 21 from
Schleicher. Can anyone relate their installation experience before we,
pardon the pun, auger in? Specifically about the drilling the 12mm hole and
the fiberglass cloth lamination. For those curious, I shall convey back our
own dealing once the exercise complete.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault
Aéroclub des Cantons de l'Est

Hello all,

For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
days ago.

The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.

Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
for us.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault

PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
sort, I need to transmit a personal note.

Marc

A PW-6, competitor to the ASK 21, needs no ballast weights -- climbs
better too.

For those at all interested, we installed the spin kit yesterday. The case
is that in Canada the nearest AME's specialising in glider work are 10 to
hours drive from Montreal. So we had to work with our "standard" AME. He
works on our tow plane. That is why I sent out our "help!" post a couple
days ago.

The installation is really as one indicated: a no brainer ie easy. The
important issue is to be assured of locating the 12 mm holes precisely. A
small challenge in geometry but achiavable. As indicated by Patrick, one has
to be double carefull in drilling such a "big" hole not to take out the
surface with a standard metal bit. A standard issue for those of you
familiar with this kind of operation, I am certain. The rest is really fun
work dealing with epoxy and fiberglass.

Our AME has just to clear the paperwork with Schleicher and our club will be
equiped with a spinable ASK-21. We believe this will be quite a safety asset
for us.

Cheers

Marc Arsenault

PS Would Patrick kindly send me another email with a valid address of some
sort, I need to transmit a personal note.




--
Charles Yeates

Swidnik PW-6U & PW-5
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Charles,

Thank you for your reply. It was completely off topic.

Regards

Marc Arsenault

The ASK 21 is widely used around the world (750!),
so it seems
evidence
for this belief should be available. Do you know of
any statistics that
suggest students trained in the ASK 21 are more likely
to have
spin-related accidents while flying other gliders?

I'm guessing they have fewer spin-related accidents
during training, so
one would have to balance any extra risk after training
against the
reduced risk during training.
--
Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane
Operation'

And the beat goes on...and on. Should we train for
situations that are not
required by the FARs. Seems to me that a FBO would
keep their trainer
around for solo rental and be able to spin it for training.
Ergo spin
weights. The best of both worlds.
Chuck

At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)

All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
spins. Just use something else.

I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.



Mark Lenox
CFIG


"John Doe" wrote in message
...
At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)

Getting into this conversation late, sorry.

At the Air Force Academy they used the ASK-21 for spin training (back in the
days when the 2-33 was their basic trainer). They had tables to determine
the exact amount of tail ballast to install based on pilot weights, and then
the thing spun like crazy. Without the weights, it is a good trainer for
all other purposes, and didn't spin so well.

It spun as well as the Lark IS-28B2 I used to instruct in. Quick entry,
wrapped up nice and tight, and made an honest recovery.

Agree with those who say spin training is essential, and the ASK-21 is a
good trainer for that, if configured properly.

Bullwinkle
CFIG

On 2/28/06 4:48 PM, in article , "Mark
Lenox" wrote:


All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
spins. Just use something else.

I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.



Mark Lenox
CFIG


"John Doe" wrote in message
...
At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)

Mark Lenox wrote:

I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.

*If* you have something else at your hands.

Fact is, many European clubs have the ASK 21 as primary trainer and
nothing else. Besides, I think it's a good idea to practice spins in a
glider which the student already knows. You can combine this with an
impressive demonstration how glider characteristics change with CofG.
And last but not least, the ASK 21 spins wonderfully with that tail
ballast. I don't see any disadvantages.

Stefan

I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail ballast to
demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary aerobatic training.

One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability: Docile
primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified for cloud flying.
One size fits all.


Stefan
(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin in an ASK 21 and who
gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)