Tempest in a teapot - IFR 'training' in-between lessons

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Just a question for y'all out there.

In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall the
procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
lesson day.

My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.

Would be interested in hearing your input!

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com

[David Megginson]

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:

> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.

Me too. I started using my sim more (FlightGear) when I realized that I was
making exactly the same mistakes in it that I was making in my real-life
lessons. It was incredibly valuable -- near the end, I even used it to
develop a different scanning pattern for ILS approaches that significantly
improved my performance (and probably saved the cost of 2 or 3 additional
lessons).

I don't know what OnTop supports, but I used FlightGear's "Random Winds"
option quite heavily, so that I could learn better to gauge winds in holds
and approaches from various cues.


All the best,


David

[Bob Gardner]

Keep doing it.

Bob Gardner

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> Just a question for y'all out there.
>
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall
the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
>
> Would be interested in hearing your input!
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
>
>

[BTIZ]

most IFR pilots will "chair fly" the approach before flying it in actual
conditions in the airplane.. they will plan out the "sequence".. plan the
radio configurations.. tricky nav aid retunes (ever look at the ILS Rwy 13
at Provo UT? and fly the full approach starting with from Fairfield VOR)

So you are using a computer to "chair fly" and study an approach before
doing it in the airplane... makes better use of airplane time that is $$

BT

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> Just a question for y'all out there.
>
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall
the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
>
> Would be interested in hearing your input!
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
>
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

GOOD! That is what I was wondering.. Come to think of it, when I have my
checkride the closest to a 'spontaneous' moment would be when/if the
checkride examiner says that the weather is down at my destination and to
set-up for the alternate - which of course is already planned.

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Caryb.287$yf.40@fed1read01...
> most IFR pilots will "chair fly" the approach before flying it in actual
> conditions in the airplane.. they will plan out the "sequence".. plan the
> radio configurations.. tricky nav aid retunes (ever look at the ILS Rwy 13
> at Provo UT? and fly the full approach starting with from Fairfield VOR)
>
> So you are using a computer to "chair fly" and study an approach before
> doing it in the airplane... makes better use of airplane time that is $$
>
> BT
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > Just a question for y'all out there.
> >
> > In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> > program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall
> the
> > procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my
actual
> > lesson day.
> >
> > My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> > wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> > lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> > before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I
should
> > say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> > performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> > approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
> >
> > Would be interested in hearing your input!
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Good Flights!
> >
> > Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> > PP-ASEL
> >
> > "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> > We are alive in the air with this miracle
> > that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> >
> > - Cecil Day Lewis-
> >
> > Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Jeff]

Its good for training, but in the real world you may not be able to always
practice your approaches prior to doing them.
I found that after I got the cockpit management down, and relax, it was all so
much easier.

a couple of months ago I flew into Ontario Int. in southern california, at the
HEC vor they gave me the ziggy3 arrival and the ILS for 26R, then they told me
to turn 20 degrees left to make way for a 737, then gave me direct to petis and
told me to land ILS 26L . I couldnt have practiced this in advance, its all in
cockpit management, having your stuff laid out so you can just glance down and
get the new information.

Jeff

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:

> Just a question for y'all out there.
>
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
>
> Would be interested in hearing your input!
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com

[Jeff]

Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing wierd
things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his checkride, they never
give non-standard holds, but they did that one time, when I did mine, it was
getting late and all the bigboys were starting tocome in (did my approaches at
LAS , Las vegas Int.) and they started cutting my approaches short and gave me
something they hadnt before. When I was on the missed, they gave me a "turn left
xx intercept the BLD xxx radial inbound" so instead of sending me back to the
VOR and doing my approach from the IAF, they were going to have me start it
inside the FAF.

So far I have never done a "real hold" or flown an entire approach, I have been
told it would be 7 min. before they could get me down and was told to do "some
little boxes", been zig-zaged all over the LA basin trying to get into long
beach, in actual weather it seems to take longer to get down then in VFR (on an
IFR flight plan), in VMC its pretty quick, in IMC, they fly you all over untill
they are ready for you. Also in IMC they seemed to always keep me high,
9000-12000 ft, then slam dunk me onto the ILS. Of course it varies with
different airports/controllers.

Jeff

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:

> GOOD! That is what I was wondering.. Come to think of it, when I have my
> checkride the closest to a 'spontaneous' moment would be when/if the
> checkride examiner says that the weather is down at my destination and to
> set-up for the alternate - which of course is already planned.
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:Caryb.287$yf.40@fed1read01...
> > most IFR pilots will "chair fly" the approach before flying it in actual
> > conditions in the airplane.. they will plan out the "sequence".. plan the
> > radio configurations.. tricky nav aid retunes (ever look at the ILS Rwy 13
> > at Provo UT? and fly the full approach starting with from Fairfield VOR)
> >
> > So you are using a computer to "chair fly" and study an approach before
> > doing it in the airplane... makes better use of airplane time that is $$
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > > Just a question for y'all out there.
> > >
> > > In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> > > program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall
> > the
> > > procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my
> actual
> > > lesson day.
> > >
> > > My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> > > wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> > > lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> > > before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I
> should
> > > say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> > > performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> > > approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
> > >
> > > Would be interested in hearing your input!
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Good Flights!
> > >
> > > Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> > > PP-ASEL
> > >
> > > "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> > > We are alive in the air with this miracle
> > > that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> > >
> > > - Cecil Day Lewis-
> > >
> > > Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

[Roy Smith]

Jeff > wrote:
> Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing
> wierd things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his checkride

On my checkride, I had just intercepted the localizer for the ILS when
the controller cancelled my approach clearance and told me to do a 360
to allow faster traffic to pass me. Amazingly enough, as I finished my
turn and rolled out on my original heading, the CDI was just centering
and I completed the approach like nothing had happened. :-)

Sometimes it's good that wierd things happen on a checkride. The
examiner wants to see that you can roll with the punches. If ATC throws
you a curve and you handle it in stride, it make him feel good about you.

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Okay,,, Roy,,,, you and Jeff have done it now - I'm afraid of my checkride
now and will be remaining an IR student, forever.... <GRIN> <WINK>

Seriously though, thanks for the heads up. I hope to be REALLY, REALLY good
by checkride time...

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff > wrote:
> > Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing
> > wierd things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his
checkride
>
> On my checkride, I had just intercepted the localizer for the ILS when
> the controller cancelled my approach clearance and told me to do a 360
> to allow faster traffic to pass me. Amazingly enough, as I finished my
> turn and rolled out on my original heading, the CDI was just centering
> and I completed the approach like nothing had happened. :-)
>
> Sometimes it's good that wierd things happen on a checkride. The
> examiner wants to see that you can roll with the punches. If ATC throws
> you a curve and you handle it in stride, it make him feel good about you.

[Jay Somerset]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:07:02 GMT, "Cecil E. Chapman"
> wrote:

> Just a question for y'all out there.
>
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.

Rehearsals are good. Less likely to get flustered or make mistakes if you
encounter turbulence or get some strange ATC vectoring.

>
> Would be interested in hearing your input!
>
> --

[John Clonts]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff > wrote:
> > Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing
> > wierd things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his
checkride
>
> On my checkride, I had just intercepted the localizer for the ILS when
> the controller cancelled my approach clearance and told me to do a 360
> to allow faster traffic to pass me. Amazingly enough, as I finished my
> turn and rolled out on my original heading, the CDI was just centering
> and I completed the approach like nothing had happened. :-)
>
> Sometimes it's good that wierd things happen on a checkride. The
> examiner wants to see that you can roll with the punches. If ATC throws
> you a curve and you handle it in stride, it make him feel good about you.

This was in VMC, right?

[Jeff]

****, I thought I was going to be a career IFR student the way I was going, its
hard for me to actually sit down and study for the written, took me like 6
months...but I got some good training in that 6 months :)

Jeff

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:

> Okay,,, Roy,,,, you and Jeff have done it now - I'm afraid of my checkride
> now and will be remaining an IR student, forever.... <GRIN> <WINK>
>
> Seriously though, thanks for the heads up. I hope to be REALLY, REALLY good
> by checkride time...
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jeff > wrote:
> > > Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing
> > > wierd things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his
> checkride
> >
> > On my checkride, I had just intercepted the localizer for the ILS when
> > the controller cancelled my approach clearance and told me to do a 360
> > to allow faster traffic to pass me. Amazingly enough, as I finished my
> > turn and rolled out on my original heading, the CDI was just centering
> > and I completed the approach like nothing had happened. :-)
> >
> > Sometimes it's good that wierd things happen on a checkride. The
> > examiner wants to see that you can roll with the punches. If ATC throws
> > you a curve and you handle it in stride, it make him feel good about you.

[Jeff]

yes, we almost always have VMC here in the Las Vegas area.


John Clonts wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jeff > wrote:
> > > Watch out for those controllers, they sometimes have a tendency of doing
> > > wierd things. I know one guy who got a non-standard hold on his
> checkride
> >
> > On my checkride, I had just intercepted the localizer for the ILS when
> > the controller cancelled my approach clearance and told me to do a 360
> > to allow faster traffic to pass me. Amazingly enough, as I finished my
> > turn and rolled out on my original heading, the CDI was just centering
> > and I completed the approach like nothing had happened. :-)
> >
> > Sometimes it's good that wierd things happen on a checkride. The
> > examiner wants to see that you can roll with the punches. If ATC throws
> > you a curve and you handle it in stride, it make him feel good about you.
>
> This was in VMC, right?

[Michael]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful?

Yes. Keep doing it. I recommend this to my instrument students as a
matter of course.

Michael

[Marco Leon]

I used OnTop too. What I really liked about OnTop was that it modeled
turbulence quite well. (My only other datapoint was Jepp's and it was quite
unflyable). I would suggest that you fly with at least some turbulence
because it will force you to keep your scan going and I believe the PC sims
help out most in your scan.

During my checkride, I wound up having 30kts+ winds at 3000 feet so I was
glad to have practiced with turbulence in the sim.

My only gripe about OnTop is the fact that the radios don't fit with the
rest of the panel on one screen. That extra click and the way the radios
cover the CDIs is not very realistic. ASA's sims have the potential to be
really good if they just poured a little money into them. Oh well...


Marco

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> Just a question for y'all out there.
>
> In-between lessons I've been practicing approaches using my OnTop IFR
> program. It seems to work, very well, in terms of getting me to recall
the
> procedures and frequencies by sheer repetition when it comes to my actual
> lesson day.
>
> My question though: Is such an approach (pardon the unintentional pun)
> wise/useful? Would it be better for me to go into my actual instrument
> lessons totally fresh (of course, with a look-see at the approach charts
> before leaving for my lesson) without any rehearsal / practice? I should
> say that I do notice a big difference (and satisfaction with) in my
> performance on the lesson days where I have practiced/rehearsed the
> approaches on my simple Sim on the days before my lesson.
>
> Would be interested in hearing your input!
>
> --
> --
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
> PP-ASEL
>
> "We who fly do so for the love of flying.
> We are alive in the air with this miracle
> that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>
> - Cecil Day Lewis-
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
>
>



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