Left Mag Dead... After Annual???

[three-eight-hotel]

So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.

I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
afternoon, when he has something definitive.

I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
be.

Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
from an annual?

Thanks for any input.

Todd

[Jim Burns]

Yesterday I watched a C150 go out of a local shop after an annual. The
owner was beyond his 90 day solo privileges, so he and a CFI took it up for
some training. It came back with the alternator over charging.

A couple months ago an Ercoupe came out of a shop with the carb heat scat
tube disconnected. He was forced to make an off field landing after getting
carb ice.

The AI that signed off our Aztec had forgotten to reconnect an oil line to
the oil cooler on one engine, it puked oil all over the ramp on initial
startup.

Things like these are almost guaranteed to happen. I'm not saying that they
"should" happen, I'm just saying that they will. Mechanics are human. Ask
yours how many times he got interrupted while doing your annual, you'll be
amazed. Every interruption is a chance that something either won't get
done, or won't get finished. I'm not making excuses for them, but only
pointing out the fact that we as pilots should be aware of these things and
be extra vigilant immediately after the AI throws us the keys and says "It's
all ready to go".

Your mag problem could be something as simple as that they didn't tighten it
up firmly after timing it. It started and ran after they were done, but
then vibrated loose. Or it could have failed completely, just because it
was time for it to fail. Glad the problem surfaced on the ground.

Jim



"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/27/06 08:49, three-eight-hotel wrote:
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

I like Jim's response so I won't go there. I just wanted to mention that
in this month's IFR Refresher magazine, they have an article about a
high-time pilot that was to transport a Citation jet after maintenance,
and was taking off within about 15 minutes of picking up the keys. The
weather was IMC and it appeared no pre-flight planning was done, not
much of a walk around, etc.

Right after take off, he reported a minor problem and said he needed to
return to the field, and crashed within about 2 minutes.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:07:43 -0600, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

>Yesterday I watched a C150 go out of a local shop after an annual. The
>owner was beyond his 90 day solo privileges, so he and a CFI took it up for
>some training. It came back with the alternator over charging.
>
>A couple months ago an Ercoupe came out of a shop with the carb heat scat
>tube disconnected. He was forced to make an off field landing after getting
>carb ice.
>
>The AI that signed off our Aztec had forgotten to reconnect an oil line to
>the oil cooler on one engine, it puked oil all over the ramp on initial
>startup.
>
>Things like these are almost guaranteed to happen. I'm not saying that they
>"should" happen, I'm just saying that they will. Mechanics are human. Ask
>yours how many times he got interrupted while doing your annual, you'll be
>amazed. Every interruption is a chance that something either won't get
>done, or won't get finished. I'm not making excuses for them, but only
>pointing out the fact that we as pilots should be aware of these things and
>be extra vigilant immediately after the AI throws us the keys and says "It's
>all ready to go".

When I was training the aircraft C152) was given a service (50hr?)
before my long X/Country. Checked the oil and it barely touched the
bottom of the stick. Told the instructor who said can't be! Took a
look himself, then went off to find the mechanic :-)

[Doug]

I have had several mechanic induced problems with my bird. Best to
climb as fast as possible and stay over landable terrain until things
are sorted out. Just the way things are.

[three-eight-hotel]

Extra vigilance is a good tip! I've heard the stories about crossing
the cables up, which would really make flying/landing a challenge! ;-)

I'm glad it happened on the groud too!

Thanks,
Todd

[three-eight-hotel]

I'm also glad it happened on the "ground"!

[RST Engineering]

Three magic words to live by:

OWNER ASSISTED INSPECTIONS


Jim



"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual

[Gene Seibel]

I've gone to pick up a plane and had it begin spraying fuel out from
under the cowling as soon as I thurned on the fuel pump. Another time
two sparkplug connectors were several turns from even being finger
tight. Never expect an airplane to be airworthy when the mechanic is
finished with it.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Dave Stadt]

An aircraft owner should never be surprised by problems occuring after a
mechanic turns the plane back to the owner, in fact you will live longer if
you assume there will be problems after a mechanic turns the plane lose.
The stories are legion.


"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

[John Doe]

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

I make the shop prove to me that everything in the airplane works after
every time they touch it....when I'm satisified that my plane is back to
par, then I'll offer to pay the bill.

[three-eight-hotel]

I tend to agree, and it only reinforces the three words to live by,
according to Jim... But, assuming you don't do an owner assisted
annual, how much is too little? i.e. Gene's post on plugs not even
being in finger tight... Does everyone remove their cowl cover after
annual and go through, checking for things like that? I assumed
vigilance during preflight and runup was being fairly responsible...

It sounds like popping the cowl cover might not be a bad thing to do
after annual, although I wouldn't have been able to catch a dead mag.
Again... I'm glad it happened on the ground!

What about folks that rent? Does everyone thoroughly check airplane
logs, and if it is noticed that the flight you're about to take is the
first flight out of annual, how much do you do, outside of a thorough
preflight and runup?

Todd

[Steve Foley]

How long does it take to prove it to you?

Who is paying for the mechanics time while he/she is doing this?

Do you make an appointment to pick up your plane, or simply show up and
interrupt whatever is already going on?


"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:8GHMf.43236$Dh.21362@dukeread04...

> I make the shop prove to me that everything in the airplane works after
> every time they touch it....when I'm satisified that my plane is back to
> par, then I'll offer to pay the bill.

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/27/06 10:43, three-eight-hotel wrote:
> I tend to agree, and it only reinforces the three words to live by,
> according to Jim... But, assuming you don't do an owner assisted
> annual, how much is too little? i.e. Gene's post on plugs not even
> being in finger tight... Does everyone remove their cowl cover after
> annual and go through, checking for things like that? I assumed
> vigilance during preflight and runup was being fairly responsible...
>
> It sounds like popping the cowl cover might not be a bad thing to do
> after annual, although I wouldn't have been able to catch a dead mag.
> Again... I'm glad it happened on the ground!
>
> What about folks that rent? Does everyone thoroughly check airplane
> logs, and if it is noticed that the flight you're about to take is the
> first flight out of annual, how much do you do, outside of a thorough
> preflight and runup?

Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
the security of the spark plugs ;-\

I have thought about it, though. Of course, I'm not launching into IMC
(yet)...

>
> Todd
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[three-eight-hotel]

>> Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
>> maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
>> the security of the spark plugs ;-\

I'm pretty thorough about preflight and runup, regularly, as well, but
on the first flight after the plane has come out of annual, is it
overkill to remove the cowl and inspect for something that doesn't look
right? I'm just wondering if it's slightly on the reckless side, not
to go above and beyond our normally thorough preflight and runup?

[dlevy]

FWIW, I'm most concerned about mechanical problems immediately after an
annual.

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

[three-eight-hotel]

Makes sense to me!

[Dave Butler]

John Doe wrote:

> I make the shop prove to me that everything in the airplane works after
> every time they touch it....when I'm satisified that my plane is back to
> par, then I'll offer to pay the bill.

Oh, that's a good idea. That way if there's something wrong that might kill you,
at least you won't have paid for it.

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/27/06 11:21, three-eight-hotel wrote:
>>> Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
>>> maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
>>> the security of the spark plugs ;-\
>
> I'm pretty thorough about preflight and runup, regularly, as well, but
> on the first flight after the plane has come out of annual, is it
> overkill to remove the cowl and inspect for something that doesn't look
> right? I'm just wondering if it's slightly on the reckless side, not
> to go above and beyond our normally thorough preflight and runup?
>

Well, I was answering from the Renter's point of view. As a renter, I am
not allowed to remove the cowl (as far as I know). If there is a loose plug
wire that isn't noticed during the normal run-up, I wouldn't catch it.

I've always assumed this is one of the compromises I make by not owning my
own plane.

As for my pre-flight, mine is longer than what is recommended by the POH.
Over the years, as I read or hear about horror stories, I add new things
to my check list so as to not experience that problem myself.

For example, from day one I was taught to check the bolts on the aileron
hinges to make sure they are secure. After hearing a story about someone
who had an aileron hinge come apart due to wear, I now always check for
wear.

If I were an owner, I could certainly create my own list of checks to do
after getting an aircraft back from maintenance. But as a renter, I think
I'm limited in what I can reasonably do.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roy Smith]

Mark Hansen > wrote:
>Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
>maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
>the security of the spark plugs ;-\

Why not? The cowl on most types comes off with no tools. When doing
checkouts with new club members, I often pull the cowling and show
them what's underneath.

I certainly wouldn't launch into anything but day-vfr for the first
flight after major maintenance, and even then, I like to circle the
airport a couple of laps while climbing to a good altitude.

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/27/06 11:39, Roy Smith wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote:
>>Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
>>maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
>>the security of the spark plugs ;-\
>
> Why not? The cowl on most types comes off with no tools. When doing
> checkouts with new club members, I often pull the cowling and show
> them what's underneath.

I've been flying C172 N and M models, and at least on the specific ones
that I've used, you must remove a number of screws.

Also, the club I've joined is geared toward student and low-time pilots,
and has several 'rules' whose primary purpose is in keeping the inexperienced
from getting into trouble - so I assumed they would not be to happy to see
one of the members pulling the cowl and poking around inside.

Of course, if you're providing club check-outs, you probably have more
latitude in this area than a general member would? In my club, for example,
the CFIs have a key to the office, while as a member I do not.

To be honest, I haven't asked if pulling the cowl is against the policy
at my club.

>
> I certainly wouldn't launch into anything but day-vfr for the first
> flight after major maintenance, and even then, I like to circle the
> airport a couple of laps while climbing to a good altitude.

That's good advice, of course.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[John Doe]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1141068677.930206@sj-nntpcache-5...
> John Doe wrote:
>
>> I make the shop prove to me that everything in the airplane works after
>> every time they touch it....when I'm satisified that my plane is back to
>> par, then I'll offer to pay the bill.
>
> Oh, that's a good idea. That way if there's something wrong that might
> kill you, at least you won't have paid for it.

Wow. What's the cause for hostility? Did I insult you somehow?

If there is something wrong (that might kill me or not) I'm not paying the
shop a cent until I'm satisfied with their work.

[John Doe]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:wQHMf.5807$Gw2.3489@trndny03...
> How long does it take to prove it to you?
>

Depends on what they were working on. If they were working on the engine,
they're going to do an engine run with me at a minimum, sometimes a local
flight. I don't think I've ever taken more than an hour of their time.

> Who is paying for the mechanics time while he/she is doing this?
>

They are, if they value my continued business. If not, there are plenty of
other shops that are more than willing to work on my plane.

> Do you make an appointment to pick up your plane, or simply show up and
> interrupt whatever is already going on?
>

I always make an appointment. I would think showing up unannounced would be
quite rude.

[Dave Butler]

John Doe wrote:
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1141068677.930206@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>>John Doe wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I make the shop prove to me that everything in the airplane works after
>>>every time they touch it....when I'm satisified that my plane is back to
>>>par, then I'll offer to pay the bill.
>>
>>Oh, that's a good idea. That way if there's something wrong that might
>>kill you, at least you won't have paid for it.
>
>
> Wow. What's the cause for hostility? Did I insult you somehow?
>
> If there is something wrong (that might kill me or not) I'm not paying the
> shop a cent until I'm satisfied with their work.

Didn't mean to be hostile. It just occurred to me that it was strange to put
such a high priority on protecting your wallet when your skin's at risk.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.
"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
<...>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?


How about the handle on the fuel selector installed 180 degrees off -
Pointed at "main" sucking gas from a nearly empty aux. tank. As it turns
out, the runway was long enough to take off from AND land on...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail

[RST Engineering]

If you do OAA, you don't have to worry about taking the cowl off and
looking. Since you were the one that put the cowl (and every other
inspection plate and removable frumpus) back on the airplane after you took
them off in the first place, you have as much time as your little heart
desires to thoroughly inspect the aircraft.

And, since you were the one that pulled and reinstalled the plugs for the
cleaning and compression check, you don't have to worry about somebody not
tightening them up right. You have met the enemy and he is you {;-)

Jim





"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> Well, I do a thorough preflight and run up each time, regardless of the
>>> maintenance schedule. I certainly cannot remove the cowl and inspect
>>> the security of the spark plugs ;-\
>
> I'm pretty thorough about preflight and runup, regularly, as well, but
> on the first flight after the plane has come out of annual, is it
> overkill to remove the cowl and inspect for something that doesn't look
> right? I'm just wondering if it's slightly on the reckless side, not
> to go above and beyond our normally thorough preflight and runup?
>

[A Lieberman]

On 27 Feb 2006 10:43:05 -0800, three-eight-hotel wrote:

> I tend to agree, and it only reinforces the three words to live by,
> according to Jim... But, assuming you don't do an owner assisted
> annual, how much is too little? i.e. Gene's post on plugs not even
> being in finger tight...

Plug wire fell out on me INFLIGHT. I went to pick up a passenger at a
neighboring airport (10 nm). Runup was perfect on take off from my home
airport. My preflight is like the first time I ever flew the plane, and I
am the owner of the plane.

Nary a word from the engine until I went to start up the engine, taxied out
and mag check failed. Taxied back, A&P came out, decowled the plane and
sure enough one wire out, another one hanging by a thread.

This was one hour after I took the log books from my A&P after annual.

Allen

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> These things can happen, but lack of attention to detail when it comes to my
> own health and well being is unacceptable.

Another good reason to do an extra-careful preflight right after it comes
out of the shop is because you can really build up your personal tool
collection. I figure if the mechanic left it in the plane, it was
obviously meant as a present. I recently picked up a dandy automatic wire
stripper. I missed out on the wrench left under the cowling because a
fellow club member was quicker on the uptake than I was, which is a shame
because a 3/4" Snap-On is both an excellent tool and hard to come by.

[BTIZ]

>
> Well, I was answering from the Renter's point of view. As a renter, I am
> not allowed to remove the cowl (as far as I know). If there is a loose
> plug
> wire that isn't noticed during the normal run-up, I wouldn't catch it.
>

you can remove the cowl as a renter, as you are the "operator" and PIC
The FBO/Flight School may not appreciate it though

[Matt Barrow]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>
> The same shop did an annual that left me with a very rough running engine
> on the first flight, where I gave serious thought to a precautionary
> landing. It was the last time I went to these guys.

My shop does a half hour or so post-maintenance flight, conducted by the
head of the shop. So far, he's still alive after 25 or so years in the
business.

I'll ask him how many times he's had to declare an emergency or make an
off-airport landing next time I see him.

Oh, yeah...they charge A LOT for annuals and maintenance, but they're worth
it. My last annual was over $5000 with about $1000 for some minor work and
tweaks.



--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
.. .
> Three magic words to live by:
>
> OWNER ASSISTED INSPECTIONS
>
>

Post-Maintenance Test Flight (by FBO/Shop owner)


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Viperdoc]

If you have your mechanic fly the plane after annual, whose insurance covers
the flight in the event of a problem? In my case, it's a twin or a high
performance aerobatic tail dragger. I wouldn't trust a mechanic (or anyone
else) unless they were named on the insurance policy AND had a lot of time
in type.

On the other hand, as far as I know, paying a lot of money does not
necessarily equate to a quality job, and yes, I do help with the annuals as
well.

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "RST Engineering" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Three magic words to live by:
>>
>> OWNER ASSISTED INSPECTIONS
>>
>>
>
> Post-Maintenance Test Flight (by FBO/Shop owner)

Still not near as good as owner assisted. In nearly 10 years of ownership
no one has layed a tool on my airplane without me watching like a hawk. 99%
of the work is done by me with the IA inspecting. So far no surprises and
as a plus the cost of an annual plumets.

>
>
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>

[Scott D]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:37:27 GMT, "Viperdoc"
> wrote:

>If you have your mechanic fly the plane after annual, whose insurance covers
>the flight in the event of a problem? In my case, it's a twin or a high
>performance aerobatic tail dragger. I wouldn't trust a mechanic (or anyone
>else) unless they were named on the insurance policy AND had a lot of time
>in type.
>
>On the other hand, as far as I know, paying a lot of money does not
>necessarily equate to a quality job, and yes, I do help with the annuals as
>well.
>
>
I do just as Matt does. I take the Mechanic with me. I fly the
plane out on a 20-30 min flight with him sitting in the right seat so
if anything were to pop up, he is there and he can see what is going
on. I have done this with all the aircraft that I fly/manage. It
helps builds a good relationship with your mechanic and he knows that
he will be in the plane on its first flight when it comes out of the
shop, so he better have it together right. So far we have had no
issues with any of the aircraft. As a matter of fact, I am getting a
Duke out of annual on Wednesday and I have already made an arrangement
with the mechanic on Thursday morning for the flight before I put
passengers in it on Friday.

Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me

[Scott D]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:40:01 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> wrote:

>Three magic words to live by:
>
>OWNER ASSISTED INSPECTIONS
>
>
>Jim

That's good if you have the time and its not a very long and drawn out
job. But when an annual takes a minimum of 8 full days, and it needs
to be put back into service as quick as possible because it is losing
money as it sits there, and you have other planes to fly or have
another job that needs your attention as well. When are you going to
be able to be there 100% of the time? For a smaller GA plane like a
172 or an arrow or something similar I would say heck yea, but when
you start getting into larger, higher performance aircraft, you just
can't allot the time that it would take to do such things. At some
point, you do have to rely on the mechanic. All you have to do is ask
around and you can start weeding out poorly disciplined mechanics in a
heartbeat.


Scott D.

take out the obvious to email me

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>>> OWNER ASSISTED INSPECTIONS
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Post-Maintenance Test Flight (by FBO/Shop owner)
>
> Still not near as good as owner assisted. In nearly 10 years of ownership
> no one has layed a tool on my airplane without me watching like a hawk.
> 99% of the work is done by me with the IA inspecting. So far no surprises
> and as a plus the cost of an annual plumets.

In seven years of going to the same shop, I've had no surprises either.

Whatever (or however) floats your boat, but I'm not as handy with my hands
as most.

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

"Dave Stadt" > writes:

> [... with owner-assisted annuals] the cost of an annual [plummets].

If you include the opportunity cost of your own time (the income
you eschew) in the calculation, you may find otherwise.

- FChE

[Matt Barrow]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going thru it right this minute. And I'm not happy.
> Sequence of events:
> Mid-Jan I was coming back from a trip and the TKM radio was having
> problems - the UPSAT was jsut fine. Met with the avionics dude, he
> thought it was 1) spark plug wire, 2) spark plug 3) mag.
>
> Into the shop...cleaned and regapped the plugs but oil on the
> bottom plug of cylinder #1. Rebuilt cylinder.
>
> Aircraft down for 6 weeks due to shop being very busy.
>
> Saturday - call from shop, things are good, they ran it, life it good.
>
> Sunday AM - I drive out to airport. During runup, 500 rpm drop on right
> side. Parked in front of the shop's door rather than putting it back
> into my hangar.
>
> Monday noon - just got the call. All sort of things that *should* have
> been caught at annual. These types of issues do not instantly appear,
> they evolved. And the airplane has been in the shop twice before
> for other periodic maintenance issues.
>
> I'm on my way to the shop now.
>
> I'm not happy.

Find a new shop.

[Peter R.]

Dave Stadt > wrote:

> Still not near as good as owner assisted. In nearly 10 years of ownership
> no one has layed a tool on my airplane without me watching like a hawk. 99%
> of the work is done by me with the IA inspecting. So far no surprises and
> as a plus the cost of an annual plumets.

With three very young boys and a job that takes me away from home, I wish I
had the time to participate the annual. Once again, this demonstrates
that time has a monetary value and some have to be willing to trade money
for time.

As far as surprises, a 45 minute VFR flight around the airport is the
remedy.

--
Peter

[Steve Foley]

"John Doe" > wrote in message
news:qLKMf.43256$Dh.29053@dukeread04...

> > Who is paying for the mechanics time while he/she is doing this?
> >
>
> They are, if they value my continued business. If not, there are plenty
of
> other shops that are more than willing to work on my plane.


Although they may not include the time on your bill, in one way or another,
you are still paying for at least a part of it. If they consider the time as
overhead, it gets built into the hourly rate, and spread among (amongst?)
all of their customers. If they 'value your continued business' they should
build it into the bill. That way, the customer who merely shows up and picks
up their plane isn't paying for the time the mechanic spends with you.

Although there are plenty of shops around here willing to work on my plane,
there aren't many I am willing to let work on my plane.

For my type of ownership, I agree with Jim W. Owner assisted annuals are the
way to go.

[Donald Royer]

In sixteen years of owning a Mooney, I have had a dead mag twice after an
annual. In one case some ham handed mechanic had crushed a new coil while
trying to install it, and in the other case someone had simply forgotten to
replace the screws holding the mag cap in place.

Anyone that expects a plane to always come out on an annual in perfect shape
has a naive view of human fallibility. Always do a careful check flight
after any serious work on you plane to be sure that everything has been done
right.

Don Royer

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I just got out of a $1900 annual, and stopped by, on Friday, to gas
> the plane up for a flight to happen this week... I tried to start the
> plane up (Cessna 172), and it never as much as sputtered. The battery
> was well charged and it turned over, and over, and over, and over...
> Never fired though!?!? I tried for about 5 minutes, and ended up just
> leaving it, for the mechanic to look at.
>
> I called this morning, and they are still looking at it. He said, for
> some reason, the left mag is dead. He's supposed to call me this
> afternoon, when he has something definitive.
>
> I've never had a problem starting this plane (with the exception of a
> low battery), and was quite surprised to encounter something like that,
> immediately after an annual... It would have been different, if it had
> occured during regular useage, but when you go to pick up your airplane
> from annual, you are expecting it to be in as tip-top shape as it can
> be.
>
> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Todd
>

[Al]

The shop I used to work for did this. Any aircraft in for Maint. was flown
by one
of the pilots. If adjustments were probable, the mechanic went along. We
carried our own insurance.

I got an Aztec out of annual inspection, and 4 hours later a gasket let
go, and sprayed fuel onto the turbo. Instant fire. It burned through the oil
lines, and kept burning after fuel was shut off. It melted a magneto into a
puddle. I shot a backcourse with 1 tuning and 1 burning, and parked it in
it's tiedown just outside the shop.

1 year later, I got a C-210 fresh out of the shop, and 30 minutes later
a flex hose between the aircleaner and the turbo collapsed, killing the
engine. I landed
on the runway I was departing from. It turns out this was the same mechanic
as the Aztec.

Another year later, I was flying a C-414 for a company when they hired a
new mechanic. You guessed it. The same one. I quit.

After these, I got most of the maintenance flights. and never left one
anywhere but the airport.

Al


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Viperdoc" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The same shop did an annual that left me with a very rough running engine
>> on the first flight, where I gave serious thought to a precautionary
>> landing. It was the last time I went to these guys.
>
> My shop does a half hour or so post-maintenance flight, conducted by the
> head of the shop. So far, he's still alive after 25 or so years in the
> business.
>
> I'll ask him how many times he's had to declare an emergency or make an
> off-airport landing next time I see him.
>
> Oh, yeah...they charge A LOT for annuals and maintenance, but they're
> worth it. My last annual was over $5000 with about $1000 for some minor
> work and tweaks.
>
>
>
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>

[three-eight-hotel]

I just got off the phone with the mechanic... He says that there was a
little corrosion on the points, claiming that after washing the plane
down after annual might have led to the cause...???

He replaced the points, at no charge to me, and says I can pick it up
anytime. A benefit of this shop is that he lets me leave it in the
hangar, when there's room... During weather like this, my bird
appreciates it... ;-)

So... who wants to go on a test flight with me??? LOL!

Thanks to all, for the responses!

Todd

[nrp]

At least you did better than my brother's Mooney flying club that had
the whole magneto fall off (there were no mounting nuts etc installed)
the back of the engine on the short flight home after annual. It was
fixed at no charge...........

[Matt Barrow]

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I just got off the phone with the mechanic... He says that there was a
> little corrosion on the points, claiming that after washing the plane
> down after annual might have led to the cause...???
>
> He replaced the points, at no charge to me, and says I can pick it up
> anytime. A benefit of this shop is that he lets me leave it in the
> hangar, when there's room... During weather like this, my bird
> appreciates it... ;-)
>
> So... who wants to go on a test flight with me??? LOL!
>

Should be your mechanic or the shop owner.

Actually, the test should be conducted the shop owner or a pilot in his
employ.

Does your car repair shop test your car after fixing it?

[Roy Smith]

In article om>,
nrp > wrote:
>At least you did better than my brother's Mooney flying club that had
>the whole magneto fall off (there were no mounting nuts etc installed)
>the back of the engine on the short flight home after annual. It was
>fixed at no charge...........

A few years ago, I brought an archer up to HFD to have the electric
trim worked on by some avionic shop up there. When I went to pick up
the plane, I got in and as part of my preflight, I ran the trim
through it's full range with the thumb-switch. As soon as it got to
one end, I heard a solid "clunk", and it was wedged solid. No amount
of pulling on the wheel by hand could get it to move. The plane was
unflyable and I had to leave it there.

To make matters worse, the avionics shop insisted it wasn't their
fault. They said they only touched the electronic parts of the system
and there's no way they could have damaged the mechanical parts in the
process. I had to find another shop on the field to fix it, and the
first shop not only refused to pay for it, but insisted on getting
paid for the work they had done. Yeah, right.

[Doug]

Good old HFD.....

[three-eight-hotel]

>> Does your car repair shop test your car after fixing it?

Does my car repair shop take my car out for a "test drive" after fixing
it (tuneups, oil changes, brake work, warranty items, etc...) I don't
think so, but then again, I usually pick it up, long after they've
worked on it (after work).

Is it a pretty standard practice for the shop owner to fly an airplane,
after annual? I've heard couple in this thread, where that is the
case, but is that the norm? This thread is the first I've heard of
this practice, although I find it a reasonable or plausible
expectation. I haven't heard of this as the experiences with any of my
aviation aquaintances...

[Roy Smith]

>>> Does your car repair shop test your car after fixing it?

I once picked up my car from an oil change and as I was backing it out
of the parking space, I noticed I was leaving behind a heavy trail of
oil. They hadn't screwed the oil filter on right.

[Steve Foley]

My shop does the initial test flight after an engine overhaul or after
pulling a cylinder. He doesn't do it after an inspection.

I don't know if there is anything considered 'standard'.

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message

> Is it a pretty standard practice for the shop owner to fly an airplane,
> after annual? I've heard couple in this thread, where that is the
> case, but is that the norm? This thread is the first I've heard of
> this practice, although I find it a reasonable or plausible
> expectation. I haven't heard of this as the experiences with any of my
> aviation aquaintances...
>

[Jay Honeck]

> If you do OAA, you don't have to worry about taking the cowl off and
> looking. Since you were the one that put the cowl (and every other
> inspection plate and removable frumpus) back on the airplane after you took
> them off in the first place, you have as much time as your little heart
> desires to thoroughly inspect the aircraft.

True, and the OAA really is a great educational tool as well. I know
every square millimeter of my aircraft, thanks to ALWAYS participating
in the annual inspections.

Where I always get MIPs (Mechanic-Induced-Problems) is when they do
ANYTHING under the panel, or electrical in nature. In 8 years of
ownership, with two airplanes and three different shops, I have yet to
have any new gizmo installed in the panel that did not result in a
problem with something else.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>>>> Does your car repair shop test your car after fixing it?
>
> I once picked up my car from an oil change and as I was backing it out
> of the parking space, I noticed I was leaving behind a heavy trail of
> oil. They hadn't screwed the oil filter on right.

Ditto! I found out about my incident when there was a big puddle of oil on
the garage floor.

[[email protected]]

On 28 Feb 2006 12:50:44 -0800, "three-eight-hotel"
> wrote:

snip

>Is it a pretty standard practice for the shop owner to fly an airplane,
>after annual? I've heard couple in this thread, where that is the
>case, but is that the norm? This thread is the first I've heard of
>this practice, although I find it a reasonable or plausible
>expectation. I haven't heard of this as the experiences with any of my
>aviation aquaintances...

Depends on the maintenance facility. There are a bunch of 'em out
there (including a lot of "factory authorized" ones) that have neither
the staffing or the insurance to do a post-maintenance flight.

The last one I was allegedly affiliated with had rental aircraft,
flight instructors/solo-ing student pilots, and a charter operation as
well as a maintenance facility. I was quite familiar with the
insurance policies involved, but really don't want to think about how
much all that insurance cost.

With regard to piston singles and yours truly, once I had 100 hours in
my logbook w/high performance/complex/tailwheel endorsements and a
current medical, I was covered for VFR flight up to a quarter-mil
hull in anything my boss said I was qualified to fly.

I didn't fly every airplane I worked on, but I (or one of the charter
pilots) flew in every one that had any major maintenance or periodic
inspection. These flights would all be prior to customer
acceptance/delivery.

About the only major malfunction I haven't experienced inflight has
been an engine fire. The most common post-inspection malady I can
remember is a plugged injector nozzle after fuel system
inspection/maintenance. Probably the worst from my technician/test
pilot perspective was a nose gear problem after installation of a new
engine.

Somebody in this thread mentioned flying with the customer after
maintenance, unless I was PIC, forget it. Some of you guys scare the
heck out of me...

TC

[Jay Honeck]

> Somebody in this thread mentioned flying with the customer after
> maintenance, unless I was PIC, forget it. Some of you guys scare the
> heck out of me...

And with spring just around the corner, it's about to get a LOT scarier up
there...

:-0
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michael]

> Has anyone else had a similar problem? The mechanic said the plane was
> started and running after annual, so is this just a major coincidence?
> Is it true??? Are we all just test pilots, when we pick our planes up
> from an annual?

The reason aircraft maintenance costs so much more than automotive
maintenance is because the increased risks of serious injury and even
death require a different approach. All maintenance is done under the
supervision of specially certified personnel, using only approved
procedures and parts of the highest quality due to stringent design
approval and quality control. All this results in a much lower error
rate than automotive maintenance. And if you believe that, I've got a
bridge to sell you.

Maybe it really works that way in the airline and high end (meaning
turbine) corporate and charter world. I don't know. But the reality
of maintenance when it comes to privately owned piston pounders is very
different.

Aviation parts are low quality and high cost, the airplanes themselves
seem to be designed to make things difficult for the fabricator and
impossible for the serviceman (remember that the FAA must approve the
design), the processes used to repair are antiquated (I believe we're
the last industry left to repair using oxyacetylene welding), the
mechanics generally undertrained and underpaid (the auto dealership
pays more, so where do you think the good ones go?), and when you drop
the plane off at the shop, you take your chances. You are a test
pilot. As a general rule, a plane will come out of annual with more
things wrong then when it went in. Why? Because you won't pay to have
it done any differently.

How much was wrong on your $1900 annual on your C-172? Was anything
repaired? Parts replaced?

If I was going to annual your airplane the way I annual mine (meaning
check everything I believe should be checked, lube everything that
needs to be lubed, and not just do the required minimum), and I was
going to charge you the standard labor rate the local auto dealership
charges, I would need to charge you about that much just for the basic
inspection and routine maintenance - and that's assuming I worked as
fast as someone who does it all the time. Anything wrong would be on
top of that.

There used to be a local shop in my area that worked that way. I would
get into a plane they released from annual and just launch, without any
worry. A basic annual on a Bonanza was $5000 - any repairs were
additional. It was started by a former airline president who had
several airplanes and who wanted everything done RIGHT, cost no object.
He discovered there was nowhere he could go to have it done that way.
When he died, he left the shop to the head mechanic free and clear.
The mechanic still couldn't make a go of it. Why not? A friend of
mine took a cowling there to be repaired. The repair cost as much as
the rest of his (admittedly owner-assisted) annual put together. Hard
to keep customers that way.

The unpleasant reality is that the average annual on a simple
fixed-gear fixed-pitch 30 year old airplane is really about a 25 hour
process if you don't have to stop and fix anything significant. Yes, I
know the book says otherwise - but if you do it by the book, you will
miss stuff and make mistakes. At $1900, that works out to $76/hr,
before you consider parts. The local Chevy dealer charges more.

Now realize that most of this work requires only minimal skill - you
could easily do it yourself if you wanted to, even legally. But if
you're going to pay a pro to do it, he has to charge you the same rate
for unscrewing panels and removing seats that he charges you to
internally time a magneto or repair an exhaust crack.

Most people who are not going to do their own automotive maintenance
wouldn't even consider buying a car that was more than 10 years old.
They buy new or relatively late-model used, even though the savings on
purchase price are quite substantial (a factor of 5-10). They do this
because they know the maintenance will eat them alive, or they won't
have anything resembling reliable transportation. The same equation
applies to airplanes - only most owners simply can't afford new. The
result - high maintenance costs and reliability problems.

Michael

[RST Engineering]

No, the way YOU do an annual inspection (note clearly the word inspection)
takes about 25 hours. An annual INSPECTION takes 4 to 6 hours, half of
which is paperwork.

THe rest of the stuff you mentioned (lubrication, greasing, and such) is
preventative MAINTENANCE, not inspection.

I'm not saying that you are wrong to do it, but to claim that an annual
inspection on (say) a 172 or 28-140 is more than 8 hours is not correct.

Jim



"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The unpleasant reality is that the average annual on a simple
> fixed-gear fixed-pitch 30 year old airplane is really about a 25 hour
> process if you don't have to stop and fix anything significant.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-03-04, RST Engineering > wrote:
> No, the way YOU do an annual inspection (note clearly the word inspection)
> takes about 25 hours. An annual INSPECTION takes 4 to 6 hours, half of
> which is paperwork.
>
> THe rest of the stuff you mentioned (lubrication, greasing, and such) is
> preventative MAINTENANCE, not inspection.

On a point of pedantry (this being Usenet), he said annual, not annual
*inspection*. The inspection bit is just part of the annual (prior to
actual repairs).

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Michael]

> No, the way YOU do an annual inspection (note clearly the word inspection)
> takes about 25 hours. An annual INSPECTION takes 4 to 6 hours, half of
> which is paperwork.

If you want to be pedantic, two can play that game. Note clearly the
absence of the word inspection from my post. Annual inspection has a
regulatory meaning per 14CFR43. Annual is a commonly used aviation
term to denote the annual service cycle comprised of inspection,
preventive maintenance, and repairs as necessary. It includes the
process of opening up and cleaning so that these things can be done,
and closing everything up again. It is common usage and generally
understood. It's the reason that an A&P can do an annual - the IA need
only perform the actual inspection.

I agree, the inspection itself takes 2-3 hours once everything is
opened up and cleaned. The associated paperwork may take YOU 2-3 hours
- my process is far more streamlined that that on an airplane I've
worked on previously. I can complete the paperwork on my airplane and
have it ready for IA signature in under an hour. On a new-to-me
airplane, it can take much longer than 3 hours - if the airplane has no
AFM when one is required, or an equipment list that hasn't been updated
in decades, and the AD compliance report is a joke, it can take much
longer to research the records.

> THe rest of the stuff you mentioned (lubrication, greasing, and such) is
> preventative MAINTENANCE, not inspection.

You are correct, but it MUST be done, and realistically the time to do
it is at the time of inspection. Most private planes fly 100 hours a
year or less, so the annual is the reasonable time to take care of the
100-hour service checklist items and AD's. Sure, the owner can do most
of it himself, since it is mostly preventive maintenance, and any A&P
can do (or supervise) the rest - but if it doesn't get done, the
airplane starts turning into a piece of crap.

Michael