Practical IFR Question (for centre controllers)

[David Megginson]

This weekend, I'm flying almost due south 340 nm from Ottawa to
Philadelphia, as I mentioned in a separate posting. Inevitably, the legs of
my planned flight zigzag around a track of 180 deg M, some slightly on the
east side, and some slightly on the west. Consider this part of the trip,
all on V29:

CORTA-CFB: 198 deg M, 31 nm
CFB-LVZ: 169 deg M, 57 nm
LVZ-ETX: 190 deg M, 42 nm
ETX-PTW: 174 deg M, 22 nm

Assume I hit CORTA at 6000 ft. Will Centre drop me to 5,000 ft at CFB, then
bring me back to 6,000 ft at LVZ, then drop me back to 5,000 ft at ETX
(actually, I'd probably be starting a descent by then anyway)? Or will they
likely just leave me at 6,000? It's not a big deal of course -- mainly just
a matter of curiosity. Toronto Centre has never been too concerned about my
flying WAFDOF for turbulence or (risk of) icing, but our airways are not all
that busy below 10K ft outside of terminal areas, especially in IMC.


All the best,


David

[Dave Butler]

David Megginson wrote:
> This weekend, I'm flying almost due south 340 nm from Ottawa to
> Philadelphia, as I mentioned in a separate posting. Inevitably, the
> legs of my planned flight zigzag around a track of 180 deg M, some
> slightly on the east side, and some slightly on the west. Consider this
> part of the trip, all on V29:
>
> CORTA-CFB: 198 deg M, 31 nm
> CFB-LVZ: 169 deg M, 57 nm
> LVZ-ETX: 190 deg M, 42 nm
> ETX-PTW: 174 deg M, 22 nm
>
> Assume I hit CORTA at 6000 ft. Will Centre drop me to 5,000 ft at CFB,
> then bring me back to 6,000 ft at LVZ, then drop me back to 5,000 ft at
> ETX (actually, I'd probably be starting a descent by then anyway)? Or
> will they likely just leave me at 6,000? It's not a big deal of course
> -- mainly just a matter of curiosity. Toronto Centre has never been too
> concerned about my flying WAFDOF for turbulence or (risk of) icing, but
> our airways are not all that busy below 10K ft outside of terminal
> areas, especially in IMC.

I'm not a centre (or center ;-)) controller.

Predicting what center will do is just a game of chance.

My guess would be there are letters of agreement between Philly approach and the
adjacent airspace owners that specify the altitude where they'll take incoming
traffic, and that will be the determining factor, rather than the exact
direction of flight at the moment of handoff. If you fly into a large airport
like PHL a few times you'll begin to see a pattern.

Other than that, I don't know any way to learn what the LOAs say. I guess you
could ask on frequency if they're not too busy, or phone up the TRACON. Maybe
they'll tell you something useful, and maybe not. I don't think it's too useful
trying to predict assigned altitudes. Ultimately you'll fly whatever they assign.

In general, when you have a planned flight that takes you back and forth between
slighly east and slightly west, you will not be assigned different altitudes
every time you change heading, in my experience.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

[EDR]

In article
gers.com>, David
Megginson > wrote:

> This weekend, I'm flying almost due south 340 nm from Ottawa to
> Philadelphia, as I mentioned in a separate posting. Inevitably, the legs of
> my planned flight zigzag around a track of 180 deg M, some slightly on the
> east side, and some slightly on the west. Consider this part of the trip,
> all on V29:
>
> CORTA-CFB: 198 deg M, 31 nm
> CFB-LVZ: 169 deg M, 57 nm
> LVZ-ETX: 190 deg M, 42 nm
> ETX-PTW: 174 deg M, 22 nm
>
> Assume I hit CORTA at 6000 ft. Will Centre drop me to 5,000 ft at CFB, then
> bring me back to 6,000 ft at LVZ, then drop me back to 5,000 ft at ETX
> (actually, I'd probably be starting a descent by then anyway)? Or will they
> likely just leave me at 6,000? It's not a big deal of course -- mainly just
> a matter of curiosity. Toronto Centre has never been too concerned about my
> flying WAFDOF for turbulence or (risk of) icing, but our airways are not all
> that busy below 10K ft outside of terminal areas, especially in IMC.

My guess is that it will depend upon other traffic along your route of
flight. If you are the only one, you will stay at the same altitude
until approach starts working you into the flow.
When there is other traffic, they will put you at an altitude that fits
the flow.

[Peter R.]

David Megginson ) wrote:

> This weekend, I'm flying almost due south 340 nm from Ottawa to
> Philadelphia, as I mentioned in a separate posting. Inevitably, the legs of
> my planned flight zigzag around a track of 180 deg M, some slightly on the
> east side, and some slightly on the west. Consider this part of the trip,
> all on V29:
>
> CORTA-CFB: 198 deg M, 31 nm
> CFB-LVZ: 169 deg M, 57 nm
> LVZ-ETX: 190 deg M, 42 nm
> ETX-PTW: 174 deg M, 22 nm
>
> Assume I hit CORTA at 6000 ft. Will Centre drop me to 5,000 ft at CFB, then
> bring me back to 6,000 ft at LVZ, then drop me back to 5,000 ft at ETX
> (actually, I'd probably be starting a descent by then anyway)? Or will they
> likely just leave me at 6,000?

Dave, at those altitudes you will be talking to Syracuse Approach,
Binghamton Approach, Wilkes-Barre Approach, then I forgot. :) Probably NY
approach, then Philly Approach. No Centers involved.

Through those airspaces (I am based at Syracuse), I have had both
experiences. Sometimes the controllers leave me at the same altitude
throughout the entire IFR cruise (regardless of the heading), and sometimes
I have been instructed to climb/descend to the correct cruise altitude for
the direction.

What time are you flying? I'll be sure to wave to you as you pass
overhead! :)

--
Peter












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[David Megginson]

Peter R. wrote:

> Dave, at those altitudes you will be talking to Syracuse Approach,
> Binghamton Approach, Wilkes-Barre Approach, then I forgot. :) Probably NY
> approach, then Philly Approach. No Centers involved.
>
> Through those airspaces (I am based at Syracuse), I have had both
> experiences. Sometimes the controllers leave me at the same altitude
> throughout the entire IFR cruise (regardless of the heading), and sometimes
> I have been instructed to climb/descend to the correct cruise altitude for
> the direction.

Thanks -- that's excellent info. You guys are big on approach control down
there, aren't you?

> What time are you flying? I'll be sure to wave to you as you pass
> overhead! :)

Saturday or Sunday, whenever the weather looks best. I'll try to remember
to wag my wings over both SYR and ETX now (any others?).


All the best,


David

p.s. Thanks to everyone else who replied to this thread as well.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, David Megginson > said:
>Thanks -- that's excellent info. You guys are big on approach control down
>there, aren't you?

Depends how high you fly. The Class Cs are pretty thick on the ground in
New York, and if you stay low you'll end up talking to them rather than
Center controllers almost the whole time. I think my first flight to
Ottawa was the first time I'd talked to a Center controller.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
A fool and his money are soon flying more airplane than he can
handle.

[S Narayan]

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
le.rogers.com...

>
> Saturday or Sunday, whenever the weather looks best. I'll try to remember
> to wag my wings over both SYR and ETX now (any others?).
>

Isn't a big snow storm supposed to hit the north east this Friday-Saturday?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "S Narayan" > said:
>"David Megginson" > wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
>> Saturday or Sunday, whenever the weather looks best. I'll try to remember
>> to wag my wings over both SYR and ETX now (any others?).
>>
>
>Isn't a big snow storm supposed to hit the north east this Friday-Saturday?

The prog charts at AOPA show the North East to be pretty clear for
Saturday and Sunday. A low over the Upper Peninsula, but no precip
until you get down to Virginia-DC-DelMarVa area. Same for Sunday. Of
course, 72 hour forecasts aren't worth much more than a wild assed guess.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Recursion: n., see Recursion.

[David Megginson]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> The prog charts at AOPA show the North East to be pretty clear for
> Saturday and Sunday. A low over the Upper Peninsula, but no precip
> until you get down to Virginia-DC-DelMarVa area. Same for Sunday. Of
> course, 72 hour forecasts aren't worth much more than a wild assed guess.

Exactly. I'm prepared to fly any time Saturday or Sunday, whenever the
weather looks best. I'll be watching the Philly area itself the closest,
but I don't mind low vis as long as there's not an icing risk.


All the best,


David

[Snowbird]

David Megginson > wrote in message gers.com>...

> > Dave, at those altitudes you will be talking to Syracuse Approach,
> > Binghamton Approach, Wilkes-Barre Approach, then I forgot. :) Probably NY
> > approach, then Philly Approach. No Centers involved.

> Thanks -- that's excellent info. You guys are big on approach control down
> there, aren't you?

David,

It depends upon where "down here". Pretty typically a radar approach
facility will control the airspace for 40 miles around and up to 8-10K.
Class B's up to 14. It's not just Class Cs, there are a bunch of
TRSAs and even class D airports which have approach control (the latter
can be told by the R in the blue circle next to their name on a sectional
chart IF the radar is on the airport, but sometimes have no indication
I can discern).

In the NE tracons are pretty thick on the ground. A bit further west
much sparser.

Have a good trip!
Sydney

[David Megginson]

Saryon wrote:

> FWIW, there's a lot of talk on the news weather segments about a very
> large storm with a deep low forming right over eastern MA (BOS)
> dumping 6+" of snow, including snow right in downtown BOS (strange for
> this time of year, the ocean ususally makes it a rain event in the
> city and snow west). The storm is coming up from the south, and it's
> not getting here til late Fri and is supposed to go Sat and through
> part of Sun. Looks like it's going to be very windy behind it, and
> it's already snowing hard in VA.......

Thanks for the warning. So far, the weather guesses say that Sunday should
be a good day to fly all the way down, but I'll keep an eye on it. I don't
mind flying in snow, as long as it's not the soggy, ice-forming type and
visibility is adequate for an approach (my personal IFR minima are Canadian
alternate minima, so I want at least a 400 ft ceiling and 1 statue mile
visibility in the TAF for my ETA at KPHL, without a downward trend).


All the best,


David