Sim time loggable?

[[email protected]]

Hello all... I was thinking of helping a research group at my school by
volunteering in an experiment to test new ATC communication procedures. Supposedly, the
equipment is an i-GATE desktop simulator (PC-ATD) that is set up as a Cessna 172R. My
question is whether or not this time would be loggable. Anyone know of this equipment?
Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the time if one is
not complex-rated? Interesting thought.

Thanks,
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Robert Moore]

papenfuss wrote

> Hello all... I was thinking of helping a research group at
> my school by volunteering in an experiment to test new ATC
> communication procedures. Supposedly, the equipment is an
> i-GATE desktop simulator (PC-ATD) that is set up as a Cessna
> 172R. My question is whether or not this time would be
> loggable. Anyone know of this equipment? Along the same
> lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the
> time if one is not complex-rated? Interesting thought.

Read the following FAA document and decide for yourself.


ORDER: 8700.1

APPENDIX: 4

BULLETIN TYPE: Flight Standards Information Bulletin
(FSIB) for General Aviation (FSGA)

BULLETIN NUMBER: FSGA 98-02

BULLETIN TITLE: Authorization for Use of Personal Computer-
Based Aviation Training Devices under the
Provisions of Title 14 of the Code of
Federal Regulations (14 CFR) Parts 61
and 141

EFFECTIVE DATE: 05-26-98
-------------------------------------------------------------------
--

1. SUBJECT. This bulletin contains information and guidance to
permit aviation safety inspectors (ASI) to authorize the use of
personal computer-based aviation training devices (PCATD),
qualified and approved in accordance with Advisory Circular
(AC) 61-126, Qualification and Approval of Personal Computer-Based
Aviation Training Devices, toward satisfying the instrument rating
flight training requirements of Title 14 of the Code of Federal
Regulations (14 CFR) parts 61 and 141, under the Administrator's
authority for the approval of these devices under section 61.4 (c).

2. BACKGROUND. PCATD's are distinct from Flight Training Devices
(FTD) qualified under AC 120-45, Airplane Flight Training Device
Qualification, current edition, and flight simulators qualified
under
AC 120-40, Airplane Simulator Qualification. AFS-800 has recently
qualified and approved specific models of these devices for use as
authorized and expects that additional models will be qualified and
approved as they are developed by commercial enterprise within the
aviation industry. Guidance is needed to permit ASI's to become
familiar with industry acquisition and use of these devices under
the regulations without undue delay. AFS-800 has recently been
made
aware that inappropriate advertisement claims for the authorized
use
of such devices under parts 61 and 141 by some elements of industry
may not be in compliance with the policy intended by Flight
Standards
for their use. Therefore, the following policy is established to
ensure that only those devices qualified and approved in accordance
with AC 61-126 are authorized for use under parts 61 and 141 as
intended by Flight Standards Service.

3. POLICY. All manufacturers of PCATD models qualified and
approved
by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) are issued a letter by
AFS-800 identifying the manufacturer of the qualified and approved
model device. It is incumbent upon that manufacturer to ensure
that
subsequent models of its original design continue to meet the
qualification and approval criteria under AC 61-126. The purchaser
of a qualified and approved PCATD must have a copy of the
manufacturer's letter describing the hardware/software and other
components of the PCATD in the configuration, and representing the
make and model of either single or multiengine airplane intended to
be replicated. The qualified and approved PCATD is acceptable for
use
under the following conditions and as outlined under AC 61-126:

A. A PCATD, when used for flight instruction, is authorized
for use only in an integrated ground and flight instrument
training curriculum under parts 61 or 141. This curriculum
must be capable of providing training in all elements for
which it will be used as specified in the syllabus. An
integrated ground and flight training program is one that:

(1) Contains alternating modules/elements of ground
and flight training;

(2) Follows the knowledge based skills with motor
skills for each flight task; and

(3) Builds upon specific classroom knowledge by
immediately following with procedure rehearsal (PCATD
use) and then motor skill rehearsal (flight training
device, flight simulator, or aircraft use).

(a) If used for flight instruction under
part 61, the curriculum used must be in
general compliance with the scope and content
of a curriculum as it would be approved under
part 141;

(b) Under part 61, the PCATD may not be used
for more than 10 hours of flight instruction
toward meeting the 20 hours of flight instruction
permitted in a flight training device or a flight
simulator;

(c) If used for flight instruction under
part 141, the curriculum used must be approved
under part 141;

(d) Under part 141, the PCATD may not be used
for more than 10 hours of flight instruction
toward meeting the 15 hours of flight instruction
permitted in a flight training device or a flight
simulator;

(e) The flight instruction given in a PCATD must
consist of the procedural tasks listed in AC 61-126,
appendix 1; and

(f) The flight instruction given must be certified
as given in a PCATD that has been qualified and
approved by the FAA by an instructor authorized to
give instrument instruction.

B. Flight experience acquired in a PCATD by an instrument rating
applicant should be logged as "simulated instrument flight,"
"instrument instruction," and "PCATD." The time logged may not
exceed 10 hours creditable toward an instrument rating as outlined
herein.

4. INQUIRIES. This bulletin was developed by AFS-800. Any
questions
regarding this information bulletin should be directed to AFS-840
at
(202) 267-8196.

5. EXPIRATION DATE. This bulletin expires on March 31, 1999.



/s/
Louis C. Cusimano

[Jim]

Up to 10 hours on a PCATD with a CFII is loggable as simulated
instrument/simulator time/instruction recieved as long as you are working
toward your instrument rating.
You must work with your CFII on the prescribed training requirements of the
rateing, ie, you just can't play around on the PC with the CFII watching you
try to crash it into buildings or try to fly inverted.
This 10 hours is part of, not in addition to, the 20 hours total sim time
that is loggable while working toward your instrument rating.
PCATD time is not loggable towards recency or currency requirements.
It must be an approved PCATD.

did I miss anything?
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


> wrote in message
...
> Hello all... I was thinking of helping a research group at my school by
> volunteering in an experiment to test new ATC communication procedures.
Supposedly, the
> equipment is an i-GATE desktop simulator (PC-ATD) that is set up as a
Cessna 172R. My
> question is whether or not this time would be loggable. Anyone know of
this equipment?
> Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the
time if one is
> not complex-rated? Interesting thought.
>
> Thanks,
> -Cory
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[[email protected]]

Jim > wrote:
: Up to 10 hours on a PCATD with a CFII is loggable as simulated
: instrument/simulator time/instruction recieved as long as you are working
: toward your instrument rating.
: You must work with your CFII on the prescribed training requirements of the
: rateing, ie, you just can't play around on the PC with the CFII watching you
: try to crash it into buildings or try to fly inverted.
: This 10 hours is part of, not in addition to, the 20 hours total sim time
: that is loggable while working toward your instrument rating.

I've already got an instrument rating, and I do not believe that an instructor
will be present. It's researching different communications equipment.


: PCATD time is not loggable towards recency or currency requirements.

Fair enough, but it's still loggable as PIC time, no? Just can't count towards
the recency or currency.


: It must be an approved PCATD.

Where does one find this information? Does it have to be "checked out" in a
specific installation, or if it's a certain model is it sufficient?


Thanks again. I figured I'd ask those more familiar with this than I, since reading
FAR's directly and without guidance is a cure for insomnia.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Robert Moore]

wrote

> Fair enough, but it's still loggable as PIC time, no?
> Just can't count towards the recency or currency.

No simulator time counts as PIC. Doesn't matter if is a real
"airplane simulator", an "airplane flight training device", or
a "personal computer aviation training device", it's still not
"pilot experience", just "training time".

Note in the following excerpts from FAR 81.51 (Pilot Logbooks),
the distinction made between actually flying and training in a
simulator.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Section 61.51: Pilot logbooks.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.
(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for
lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device,
the location where the lesson occurred.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training
device from an authorized instructor

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight
simulator, or a flight training device

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational,
private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command
time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for
which the pilot is rated.
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-12-04 12:32:39 -0800, said:

> Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the time if one is
> not complex-rated?

Don't confuse a 172R with an R172 (also referred to as a 172RG).

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Jim]

PCATD time is not loggable as PIC time, just as Robert pointed out. In
addition, PCATD time is ONLY loggable as sim time when done with a CFII and
you are working on the training requirements of your instrument rating.

The PCATD rules are not in the FAR's, they are in the Advisory Circular that
Robert posted above.

IIRC, the operating manual or certification documents for the PCATD should
have the FAA approval notice in it somewhere.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

> wrote in message
...
> Jim > wrote:
> : Up to 10 hours on a PCATD with a CFII is loggable as simulated
> : instrument/simulator time/instruction recieved as long as you are
working
> : toward your instrument rating.
> : You must work with your CFII on the prescribed training requirements of
the
> : rateing, ie, you just can't play around on the PC with the CFII watching
you
> : try to crash it into buildings or try to fly inverted.
> : This 10 hours is part of, not in addition to, the 20 hours total sim
time
> : that is loggable while working toward your instrument rating.
>
> I've already got an instrument rating, and I do not believe that an
instructor
> will be present. It's researching different communications equipment.
>
>
> : PCATD time is not loggable towards recency or currency requirements.
>
> Fair enough, but it's still loggable as PIC time, no? Just can't count
towards
> the recency or currency.
>
>
> : It must be an approved PCATD.
>
> Where does one find this information? Does it have to be "checked out" in
a
> specific installation, or if it's a certain model is it sufficient?
>
>
> Thanks again. I figured I'd ask those more familiar with this than I,
since reading
> FAR's directly and without guidance is a cure for insomnia.
>
> -Cory
>
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Jim]

Has anybody heard the price of the new(ish) Elite iGate500 or 600 Advanced
PCATD? These advanced PCATD's will allow you to log sim time as well as
meet currency requirements.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

> wrote in message
...
> Hello all... I was thinking of helping a research group at my school by
> volunteering in an experiment to test new ATC communication procedures.
Supposedly, the
> equipment is an i-GATE desktop simulator (PC-ATD) that is set up as a
Cessna 172R. My
> question is whether or not this time would be loggable. Anyone know of
this equipment?
> Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the
time if one is
> not complex-rated? Interesting thought.
>
> Thanks,
> -Cory
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Gary L. Drescher]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
...
> wrote
>
> > Fair enough, but it's still loggable as PIC time, no?
> > Just can't count towards the recency or currency.
>
> No simulator time counts as PIC. Doesn't matter if is a real
> "airplane simulator", an "airplane flight training device", or
> a "personal computer aviation training device", it's still not
> "pilot experience", just "training time".

The FAA doesn't define "pilot experience", but it does define "pilot time",
"flight time", and "PIC time". Pilot time does include dual sim time
(though flight time and PIC time do not):

61.1b12: Pilot time means that time in which a person -- (i) Serves as a
required pilot flight crewmember; (ii) Receives training from an authorized
instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight
simulator, or flight training device.

So whether you log dual sim time as part of total time depends on whether
it's total pilot time (included) or total flight time (not included). For
example, form 8710 (application for certificate or rating) asks for pilot
time.

--Gary

[Robert Moore]

"Gary L. Drescher" > wrote

> The FAA doesn't define "pilot experience",

But does use "pilot experience" in Part 61.51

Section 61.51: Pilot logbooks.
(2) Type of pilot experience or training --

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized
instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight training device
from an authorized instructor.

[Scott Skylane]

Larry Fransson wrote:
> On 2003-12-04 12:32:39 -0800, said:
>
>
>>Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log the time if one is
>>not complex-rated?
>
>
> Don't confuse a 172R with an R172 (also referred to as a 172RG).
>
Larry,

Don't confuse a 172RG with an R172 (also referred to as a T-41 or Hawk XP).

[David Brooks]

"Gary L. Drescher" > wrote in message
news:ve3Ab.437503$Fm2.435988@attbi_s04...
> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
> ...
> > wrote

>
> 61.1b12: Pilot time means that time in which a person -- (i) Serves as a
> required pilot flight crewmember; (ii) Receives training from an
authorized
> instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
> (iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight
> simulator, or flight training device.

Uh-oh. Back to the scenario we were recently discussing: non-IR pilot flying
in IMC with an actual non-instructor PIC by his side. The PF can log PIC
time but it's not Pilot time. That would conform with the common argument
(not mine) that the PNF isn't logging PIC because the PF isn't required
under the regs.

Even weirder question: if two non-instructors are flying VMC VFR, with the
PF under the hood, which is required? Both? Neither? Only the safety pilot?
I don't know how to answer that from the regs.

My own logbook may need erasures in the second case.

> So whether you log dual sim time as part of total time depends on whether
> it's total pilot time (included) or total flight time (not included). For
> example, form 8710 (application for certificate or rating) asks for pilot
> time.

I think many of us log total Hobbs time (I know there are arguments against
it), which pretty much maps to the definition of pilot time.

-- David Brooks

[Flighthawk]

He can also log the 10 hours on the PCATD with an IGI present. The training
has to be part of an approved syllabus.

PD
"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Up to 10 hours on a PCATD with a CFII is loggable as simulated
> instrument/simulator time/instruction recieved as long as you are working
> toward your instrument rating.
> You must work with your CFII on the prescribed training requirements of
the
> rateing, ie, you just can't play around on the PC with the CFII watching
you
> try to crash it into buildings or try to fly inverted.
> This 10 hours is part of, not in addition to, the 20 hours total sim time
> that is loggable while working toward your instrument rating.
> PCATD time is not loggable towards recency or currency requirements.
> It must be an approved PCATD.
>
> did I miss anything?
> --
> Jim Burns III
>
> Remove "nospam" to reply
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello all... I was thinking of helping a research group at my school by
> > volunteering in an experiment to test new ATC communication procedures.
> Supposedly, the
> > equipment is an i-GATE desktop simulator (PC-ATD) that is set up as a
> Cessna 172R. My
> > question is whether or not this time would be loggable. Anyone know of
> this equipment?
> > Along the same lines, if it's a 172R simulation, is it possible to log
the
> time if one is
> > not complex-rated? Interesting thought.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Cory
> >
> > --
> >
************************************************** ***********************
> > * The prime directive of Linux: *
> > * - learn what you don't know, *
> > * - teach what you do. *
> > * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> >
************************************************** ***********************
> >
>
>