IFR student

[Gerald Sylvester]

I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
for real.

So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
easiest and especially the safest.

thanks
Gerald

[EDR]

In article et>,
Gerald Sylvester > wrote:

> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> easiest and especially the safest.

Cockpit organization is something you have to develop for yourself.
Everyone does the same things, but in a little different way. The trick
is to avoid and eliminate clutter.
Here are some of the "tools" I have found useful...

- Lapboard. A place to hold current charts, notepad, possible approach
plates to be needed.

- Notepad. Purchase a bundle of the smaller 4x6 pads from an office
supply store. You will be doing alot of writing in a small space.
Attach to lapboard and/or kneeboard.

- Timer. A good digital stopwatch/timer with big numbers and
backlighting. Ability to set the mmss for an approach or hold; count
up/count down; time between waypoints, etc.

- Vision limiting device. Foggles, hood, visor? Try before buying. Find
what is comfortable for you. If you wear glasses, there are clip on
Foggles (this is what I use).

- Headset with boom microphone and PTT. If you don't already have one,
get one.

- Portable Intercom. If the airplanes you fly don't have one builtin,
get one. You want to be able to communicate with your instructor
clearly.

- Portable GPS. Unless your aircraft is equipped with an IFR certified
GPS, the portable is a real world situational awareness device.
Non-precision approaches do not provide the distance to the airport and
groundspeed. If you have a strong tailwind, you may overshoot the
airport before the time expires.

- Handheld Comm Radio. Backup in the event of aircraft electrical
failure and used to obtain ATIS and clearances prior to engine start.

- Jepps or Government Charts? Jepps are nice but expensive and you have
to keep up with the updates. Goverment charts are cheap, throwaways,
come bound or loose.

- Mechanical pencils. Today's disposable mechanical pencils are very
usefull. The lead breaks, click... click... you are ready to write. I
tie a 18-24 inch string to the pencil and the lapboard. If I drop it,
pull the string, it's back in you hand.

- Greasepencil. My favorite piece of pilot equipment. Heads-up in the
cockpit, write your clearance on the windows where you can see it. A
good cotton cloth (I use a bandanna) wipes it away. Purchase at a
hardware store, can also be used to mark on instrument glass. (You can
even draw on the new moving map displays!)

[Max T, CFI]

Yesterday was a great day for IFR flying in the Bay Area. The clouds were
plenty bouncy, which is very different from the rather placid marine layer clouds
that we pop in and out of during the summer. I was with an IFR student going
for a checkride in a week, and he was happy to see what it felt like.

Also the temps were warm enough (and have been for the last week),
that icing wasn't an issue, since the current system came from the south.
Often winter storms come from the north, the freezing level is down to about 4,000 feet,
and that precludes much training, since we usually need to get up to 5000 feet to
get to Stockton, and 6 or 7000 feet to get down to the Monterey area when
on an IFR flight plan. So some of those days you might think are great for training aren't really flyable.

If you do decide to get started immediately, you'll want to plan your training
(and the fun flying that you fit in between training sessions) so that you rack
up the 50 hours in cross-country time required before the instrument checkride
(unless you're learning out of a Part 141 school). It's certainly doable to get
all of that time while doing your IFR training, though depending upon your location,
you sometimes need to be flying beyond your IFR destination so you can land first
at some other airport to meet the 50 nm criteria for cross country.

Whatever you decide to do, have fun!
Max T, MCFI
www.sjflight.com

Gerald Sylvester > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> for real.
>
> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> easiest and especially the safest.
>
> thanks
> Gerald
>

[Cecil E. Chapman]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> for real.

What airport do you fly out of? Just curious....

I'm a little over 40 hours now on my instrument training and have been
enjoying the recent opportunites for REAL IMC during my lessons. In fact I
have another lesson Thursday, which is shortly after all the wet stuff is
scheduled to come in again. The only drawback is that my home airport,
Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently fly
have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home airport
around the time we plan returning to RHV.

> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> easiest and especially the safest.

I've tried a LOT of the various training materials. I REALLY like the King
Instrument DVDs (tried the Sporty's equivallent, but it just didn't 'click'
with me, so I sold it on eBay and used some of the money to buy the King
Instrument). I've used the ASA Instrument written testing software, but
have moved over to Gleim 'cause I just like it better (it's updatable
online, as well). I use a yoke clip with a homemade clipboard made of two
stiff pieces of cardboard taped/glued together (cut so they are kneeboard
size) and that is clipped into the yoke clip. Another thing I've found
useful are three small Bulldog clips - I clip them to different sides of my
approach plates (overlapping each other) so that I can alternately flip from
one approach plate to another with a minimum of fuss. On the horn of the
yoke clip I have the new ASA timer, the one that has a knob for quick set of
multiple approach times. I really like it and would recommend it, highly.

I really was impressed with the government Instrument Manual publication
that they have out this year,,, it is great (quite a departure from the
dubious quality of previous government printed manuals - these are of
commercial quality design). As a supplement (after you have finished the
other instrument manual I mentioned), the Machado instrument book is very
good and rich with great tips (that's where the bulldog clip idea came
from). I also have a kneeboard on my leg with a pen held in place with a
circular coiled spring, with a small yellow writing tablet to copy down
clearances, etc.

What I'm about to throw out here is purely anecdotal from my personal
experiences so weigh it as just someone's opinion,,, not necessarily hard
fact:
In many ways I'm very glad that after getting my ticket that I flew around
as a VFR pilot building up some fun cross-country time with friends and
family. I did this for a little over two and one-half years as a private
pilot. By the time I decided to 'dive-in' into the instrument rating I
already had LOTS of cross-country hours and (I think) even more importantly,
my flying practice made the conversion to the finer tolerances of instrument
flight, easier to attain. In fact, my CFII was most impressed (and so was
I) that I had some very precise plane control skills already when I began
the instrument rating.
Another thing to consider is that the instrument rating is a very
concentrated and different experience that the basic ticket. It is
certainly a challenge, but there aren't many opportunities to look out the
windscreen and enjoy the view. The study is more concentrated that the
basic PPL, but if you are motivated it is not TOO hard.

Please understand that I'm not trying to dissuade you,,, just trying to
present you with another possible approach you might consider.

Either way,, have a great time and study hard!
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

[Judah]

I would second the last statement here.

I flew almost 200 hours VFR after getting my PPL over a nearly 2 year
period before I started my IFR. In fact, the first IFR lesson started out
as a BFR! :)

But having that much VFR experience has been invaluable to me, both in my
ability to enjoy the hood flying experience (rather than getting frustrated
and bored quickly like a friend of mine did when he went straight into IFR
training) and focus on learning the IFR specifics, as opposed to first
having to learn how to control the plane. Sure I skip my altitude check
every so often like everyone else, but in reasonable wind conditions, it is
nearly intuitive for me to put the plane back on course and altitude. (Of
course, in 30kt choppy winds like I had today, I'm chasing like all the
other IFR students out there, I think.)

But when my instructor and I talk about wind corrections, or concepts
related to approaches, or hold entry methods, etc., we can pretty much talk
about the IFR issues, and don't have to talk about controlling the plane,
or how to talk to Approach, or any of that stuff. That stuff is already
good with me...

Of course, I'm just getting started with my IFR training. So after another
30 hours of this, I might get annoyed and frustrated too! :)

But at least I got to fly with my head out the window for a while first! :)


"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in
. com:

> "Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
>> to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
>> in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
>> was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
>> to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
>> IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it for real.
>
> What airport do you fly out of? Just curious....
>
> I'm a little over 40 hours now on my instrument training and have been
> enjoying the recent opportunites for REAL IMC during my lessons. In
> fact I have another lesson Thursday, which is shortly after all the wet
> stuff is scheduled to come in again. The only drawback is that my home
> airport, Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I
> currently fly have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,,
> unfortunately they aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly),
> so we can only take advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get
> back) at my home airport around the time we plan returning to RHV.
>
>> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
>> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
>> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
>> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
>> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best, easiest
>> and especially the safest.
>
> I've tried a LOT of the various training materials. I REALLY like the
> King Instrument DVDs (tried the Sporty's equivallent, but it just
> didn't 'click' with me, so I sold it on eBay and used some of the money
> to buy the King Instrument). I've used the ASA Instrument written
> testing software, but have moved over to Gleim 'cause I just like it
> better (it's updatable online, as well). I use a yoke clip with a
> homemade clipboard made of two stiff pieces of cardboard taped/glued
> together (cut so they are kneeboard size) and that is clipped into the
> yoke clip. Another thing I've found useful are three small Bulldog
> clips - I clip them to different sides of my approach plates
> (overlapping each other) so that I can alternately flip from one
> approach plate to another with a minimum of fuss. On the horn of the
> yoke clip I have the new ASA timer, the one that has a knob for quick
> set of multiple approach times. I really like it and would recommend
> it, highly.
>
> I really was impressed with the government Instrument Manual
> publication
> that they have out this year,,, it is great (quite a departure from the
> dubious quality of previous government printed manuals - these are of
> commercial quality design). As a supplement (after you have finished
> the other instrument manual I mentioned), the Machado instrument book
> is very good and rich with great tips (that's where the bulldog clip
> idea came from). I also have a kneeboard on my leg with a pen held in
> place with a circular coiled spring, with a small yellow writing tablet
> to copy down clearances, etc.
>
> What I'm about to throw out here is purely anecdotal from my personal
> experiences so weigh it as just someone's opinion,,, not necessarily
> hard fact:
> In many ways I'm very glad that after getting my ticket that I flew
> around as a VFR pilot building up some fun cross-country time with
> friends and family. I did this for a little over two and one-half
> years as a private pilot. By the time I decided to 'dive-in' into the
> instrument rating I already had LOTS of cross-country hours and (I
> think) even more importantly, my flying practice made the conversion to
> the finer tolerances of instrument flight, easier to attain. In fact,
> my CFII was most impressed (and so was I) that I had some very precise
> plane control skills already when I began the instrument rating.
> Another thing to consider is that the instrument rating is a very
> concentrated and different experience that the basic ticket. It is
> certainly a challenge, but there aren't many opportunities to look out
> the windscreen and enjoy the view. The study is more concentrated that
> the basic PPL, but if you are motivated it is not TOO hard.
>
> Please understand that I'm not trying to dissuade you,,, just trying to
> present you with another possible approach you might consider.
>
> Either way,, have a great time and study hard!

[Jeff]

the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for you.

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

> I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> for real.
>
> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> easiest and especially the safest.
>
> thanks
> Gerald

[Jeff]

Cecil
so do you find yourself staring at the instruments on your VFR flying...

after I was about 3/4 way done with my instrument training, when I started doing
it almost everyday so I could finish, I found myself staring at my instruments
on take off and all my turns were standard rate ... had to keep reminding myself
to look out the window.

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:

> "Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> > to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> > in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> > was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> > to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> > IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> > for real.
>
> What airport do you fly out of? Just curious....
>
> I'm a little over 40 hours now on my instrument training and have been
> enjoying the recent opportunites for REAL IMC during my lessons. In fact I
> have another lesson Thursday, which is shortly after all the wet stuff is
> scheduled to come in again. The only drawback is that my home airport,
> Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently fly
> have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
> aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
> advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home airport
> around the time we plan returning to RHV.
>
> > So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> > IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> > Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> > timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> > than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> > easiest and especially the safest.
>
> I've tried a LOT of the various training materials. I REALLY like the King
> Instrument DVDs (tried the Sporty's equivallent, but it just didn't 'click'
> with me, so I sold it on eBay and used some of the money to buy the King
> Instrument). I've used the ASA Instrument written testing software, but
> have moved over to Gleim 'cause I just like it better (it's updatable
> online, as well). I use a yoke clip with a homemade clipboard made of two
> stiff pieces of cardboard taped/glued together (cut so they are kneeboard
> size) and that is clipped into the yoke clip. Another thing I've found
> useful are three small Bulldog clips - I clip them to different sides of my
> approach plates (overlapping each other) so that I can alternately flip from
> one approach plate to another with a minimum of fuss. On the horn of the
> yoke clip I have the new ASA timer, the one that has a knob for quick set of
> multiple approach times. I really like it and would recommend it, highly.
>
> I really was impressed with the government Instrument Manual publication
> that they have out this year,,, it is great (quite a departure from the
> dubious quality of previous government printed manuals - these are of
> commercial quality design). As a supplement (after you have finished the
> other instrument manual I mentioned), the Machado instrument book is very
> good and rich with great tips (that's where the bulldog clip idea came
> from). I also have a kneeboard on my leg with a pen held in place with a
> circular coiled spring, with a small yellow writing tablet to copy down
> clearances, etc.
>
> What I'm about to throw out here is purely anecdotal from my personal
> experiences so weigh it as just someone's opinion,,, not necessarily hard
> fact:
> In many ways I'm very glad that after getting my ticket that I flew around
> as a VFR pilot building up some fun cross-country time with friends and
> family. I did this for a little over two and one-half years as a private
> pilot. By the time I decided to 'dive-in' into the instrument rating I
> already had LOTS of cross-country hours and (I think) even more importantly,
> my flying practice made the conversion to the finer tolerances of instrument
> flight, easier to attain. In fact, my CFII was most impressed (and so was
> I) that I had some very precise plane control skills already when I began
> the instrument rating.
> Another thing to consider is that the instrument rating is a very
> concentrated and different experience that the basic ticket. It is
> certainly a challenge, but there aren't many opportunities to look out the
> windscreen and enjoy the view. The study is more concentrated that the
> basic PPL, but if you are motivated it is not TOO hard.
>
> Please understand that I'm not trying to dissuade you,,, just trying to
> present you with another possible approach you might consider.
>
> Either way,, have a great time and study hard!
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
> www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

[Cecil E. Chapman]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> Cecil
> so do you find yourself staring at the instruments on your VFR flying...
>

Funny you should say that,, I had a bit of a no-brainer on my last lesson.
We were converting to a circling approach and my instructor had to remind
me,,, "You can look out the window now, it's now a 'vfr' approach" :-) I
felt goofy,, of course I knew that,,,..... So, I definitely know what you
mean!

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:11:11 GMT, "Cecil E. Chapman"
> wrote:

>"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>> Cecil
>> so do you find yourself staring at the instruments on your VFR flying...
>>
>
>Funny you should say that,, I had a bit of a no-brainer on my last lesson.
>We were converting to a circling approach and my instructor had to remind
>me,,, "You can look out the window now, it's now a 'vfr' approach" :-) I
>felt goofy,, of course I knew that,,,..... So, I definitely know what you
>mean!

The switch from the panel to looking outside can be one of the most
difficult phases of flight. You "glance" out, and check the
gauges...You need to "glance out" just prior to DH to prevent busting
altitude

If it's going to be a missed and when flying at MDA you have to keep
glancing out to know if the airport is going to be visible, but when
things are right down to minimums it all has to happen at the right
time. That is where two pilot IFR is so much easier than single
pilot. The PIC stays on the gauges while the second pilot calls
watches for land, and may call for speeds and altitudes. That lease
the PIC as just flying the gauges with the other set of eyes looking
outside.

Unfortunately most of my flying has been solo except when my wife and
I go sight seeing, or take a trip.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

[Robert Moore]

Roger Halstead wrote

> The switch from the panel to looking outside can be one of the
> most difficult phases of flight.

Very true

> You need to "glance out" just prior to DH to prevent busting
> altitude

What constitutes "busting altitude" on an approach with a "DH"?

> The PIC stays on the gauges while the second pilot calls watches
> for land, and may call for speeds and altitudes. That lease the
> PIC as just flying the gauges with the other set of eyes looking
> outside.

This is not written in stone. There are many different " flying
and looking" schemes in use by various operators. "PIC" should not
be used when in fact, "pilot flying" is meant.

Bob Moore

[Max T, CFI]

Cecil,
A number of times while teaching at RHV, I've returned when the field was still IFR.
On one occasion recently we flew the ILS 30L approach to SJC and when we broke
out of the clouds, diverted to RHV. In another case, we flew an approach into
Hayward, followed I-880 and I-680 to the field and got in under special VFR.
In both of those cases, having a GPS wouldn't have helped anyway, since the MDA
is so high on that approach.
Max T, MCFI


>
The only drawback is that my home airport,
> Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently fly
> have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
> aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
> advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home airport
> around the time we plan returning to RHV.
>

[Dave Jacobowitz]

I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
when possible.

Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
those airports were a little closer.

By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.

-- dave j
--

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
> one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
> to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for you.
>
> Gerald Sylvester wrote:
>
> > I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> > to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> > in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> > was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> > to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> > IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> > for real.
> >
> > So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> > IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> > Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> > timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> > than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> > easiest and especially the safest.
> >
> > thanks
> > Gerald

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
> to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
> those airports were a little closer.

Hee hee.... that's where we 'be' too! That and WVI and SNS. I'm with you
too on the point of I wish I coud find IAPs closer. Heck, when I start my
Commercial rating I will be able to get two lessons for the time it takes me
to do one instrument lesson.

--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
> PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
> it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
> are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
> day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
> when possible.
>

>
> By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
> gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
> after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.
>
> -- dave j
> --
>
> Jeff > wrote in message
>...
> > the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
> > one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
> > to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for
you.
> >
> > Gerald Sylvester wrote:
> >
> > > I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> > > to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> > > in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> > > was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> > > to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> > > IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> > > for real.
> > >
> > > So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> > > IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> > > Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> > > timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> > > than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> > > easiest and especially the safest.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Gerald

[Craig Prouse]

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:

> I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
> PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
> it's got high minimums,

VOR/DME RWY 31 is good down to 460/1.
Those are not particularly high minimums for a VOR/DME approach.
PAO weather only goes below 500 and 1 maybe six hours per year.


> and the approach controllers around SJC
> are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC day.

Sometimes you'll wait even when it's not IMC. The approach path is
incompatible with SJC operations. That's the real problem with that
approach.


> So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
> when possible.
>
> Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
> to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
> those airports were a little closer.

PAO has a fantastic GPS approach. It was designed not to conflict with SJC.
Unlike the VOR/DME, the only delays I've ever experienced getting on the GPS
approach were due to the traffic volume into PAO on the GPS. If you're
going to be based at PAO and want to realize the utility and convenience of
your instrument rating, you'll need to be equipped for and proficient at
flying the GPS approach.

If you can train in an airplane with IFR GPS and have a CFII who doesn't
consider GPS approaches as some kind of afterthought in a modern pilot's bag
of tricks, you can easily pick them up with little extra training time.
After all, you always have to come home from each lesson, and you can fly
the GPS approach every time you come home if you want to.

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Craig Prouse > wrote in message >...

> (The PAO)
> VOR/DME RWY 31 is good down to 460/1.
> Those are not particularly high minimums for a VOR/DME approach.
> PAO weather only goes below 500 and 1 maybe six hours per year.

This is correct. I was wrong.

Having no access to IFR GPS and therefore not flown any GPS
approaches, but having looked at a lot of the
plates, many these approaches seem to be on the order of
850-900 and 1. For a few airports I know, such as KHAF,
which is frequenlty clear or has a very low layer, that
would appear to make them more or less useless.

> > (waiting to get the PAO VOR/DME 31 apch)

> Sometimes you'll wait even when it's not IMC. The approach path is
> incompatible with SJC operations. That's the real problem with that
> approach.

Yeah, as an IFR student on a budget, I have noticed myself starting
to mentally convert EFC times into dollars. "hold north of foobs,
expect clearance for bar approach in forty-one of your hard-earned
bucks."

Of course, the worst is on the ground, engine running, waiting
for t/o clearance.

> PAO has a fantastic GPS approach. It was designed not to conflict with SJC.
> Unlike the VOR/DME, the only delays I've ever experienced getting on the GPS
> approach were due to the traffic volume into PAO on the GPS. If you're
> going to be based at PAO and want to realize the utility and convenience of
> your instrument rating, you'll need to be equipped for and proficient at
> flying the GPS approach.

This is good information. None of the trainer aircraft my club has,
except a Duchess and a Bonanza, have GPS, which a bummer. I don't
think either of those planes would be a good choice for me getting
my IA. ;)

In any case, for *lots* of reasons, I think that if I want to
realize the utility and convenience of my instrument raiting,
I'll want access to better equipment. (That said, I'm already
getting a lot of satisfaction in just being a more proficient
and precise pilot.)


-- dave j

[Windecks]

I got my instrument ticket out of PAO, and regularly used KHWD, KOAK and
KLVK for practice (and the checkride, too).

From PAO, LVK is 20nm, OAK is 16nm, and HWD is 12nm. They have a wide
variety of ILS, LOC, VOR, VOR/DME and GPS approaches. Even in a spam can,
that's maybe 10-15 minutes enroute, there and back. The only downside is
that NORCAL approach may tell you no way if you try to practice them VFR,
but then again, you could just file and wait on the ground a bit.

Salinas, Watsonville and Monterey, a little farther out, are great for
practicing in actual for much of the year. My first practice approach ever
was a wide-eyed white-knuckled ILS into MRY 10R, on a VV001-1/8 coastal fog
layer sort of day. Talk about an instant humility lesson!!

Best of luck with your training and budget.

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm about 200 hrs PP, 20 hrs into my IFR training. I fly out of
> PAO, just a few miles from RHV, and though we have a VOR approach,
> it's got high minimums, and the approach controllers around SJC
> are going to make you wait a good long time for it if it's an IMC
> day. So far, to get back into PAO in lowish weather, we've done SVFR
> when possible.
>
> Where do you RHVers go to practice IAPS? My instructor and I fly
> to SCK, LVK, MOD a lot. I could cut the cost of my IA rating if
> those airports were a little closer.
>
> By the way, I agree, a good lapboard is not the obvious pilot
> gadget that comes to mind before you start IFR training, but
> after a few lessons, it'll move up on your list of priorities.
>
> -- dave j
> --
>
> Jeff > wrote in message
>...
> > the most helpful thing for me was a good lapboard.
> > one that was able to hold 2 pens, paper and approach charts. your going
> > to be doing alot of writing, so make sure your lapboard is good for
you.
> >
> > Gerald Sylvester wrote:
> >
> > > I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> > > to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> > > in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> > > was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> > > to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> > > IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> > > for real.
> > >
> > > So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> > > IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> > > Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> > > timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> > > than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> > > easiest and especially the safest.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > Gerald

[Max T, CFI]

Come on down to Squadron2 at RHV. A number of new Cessna 172's and one older one with
GPS's in them (though you'd need to check which ones keep the databases up to date).
I've flown a lot out of PAO in the past, and I think the ground wait times are shorter at RHV.
It takes me about 3-4 minutes longer to get to RHV than PAO from my Mtn View home,
and last I checked the hobbs meters there go through the cash more slowly than at PAO.
Max T, MCFI


Dave Jacobowitz > wrote in message om...
> Craig Prouse > wrote in message >...
>
>
> In any case, for *lots* of reasons, I think that if I want to
> realize the utility and convenience of my instrument raiting,
> I'll want access to better equipment. (That said, I'm already
> getting a lot of satisfaction in just being a more proficient
> and precise pilot.)
>
>
> -- dave j

[Michael]

Judah > wrote
> I would second the last statement here.

As would I - emphatically. As a practicing CFII, I will not, as a
rule, accept an instrument student with less than 200 hours.

> But having that much VFR experience has been invaluable to me, both in my
> ability to enjoy the hood flying experience (rather than getting frustrated
> and bored quickly like a friend of mine did when he went straight into IFR
> training) and focus on learning the IFR specifics, as opposed to first
> having to learn how to control the plane.

That is absolutely dead on. In fact, when I first fly with an
instrument student, I don't even use the hood, do approaches or holds,
or care about IFR charts. All we do is the fundamentals of flight -
climbs and descents, turns and straight flight, and combinations of
the above. Maybe we track a VOR.

I look for the ability to level out and maintain altitude +/-50 ft,
roll out and maintain heading +/- 5 degrees, and hold airspeed +/- 5
kts. That's all - and that's in smooth air. I relax those tolerances
when it's bumpy. Any combination of inside and outside references is
fine. I don't expect the student to be within tolerances 100% of the
time, either, but I expect him not to consistently exceed tolerances,
and to take prompt corrective action when tolerances are exceeded.

A pilot who has been flying regularly (100+ hours a year) for a couple
of years can do this automatically, and it shows. Someone who is
inexperienced or uncurrent struggles with this, and that shows too.
Someone who struggles with basic airplane control using visual
references will struggle more if he has to do it solely on
instruments. He will need hours and hours of basic attitude
instrument flying before we can even think about moving on to holding
and approach procedures. That doesn't do anyone any good.

IFR skills build on VFR skills. IFR is all about going XC when you
can't see out the window. Before you start learning to do that,
become proficient in going XC when you CAN see out the window.

It's not just airplane control, either. It's radio work (primarily
communications with ATC). It's weather knowledge. It's airplane
familiarity. It's understandig of maps and the terrain they depict.
When learning to fly instruments, everything works in favor of the
experienced VFR pilot, and everything works against the guy who
decides to just jump into his instrument rating right after getting
the private. For that reason, I really do not recommend it.

Michael

[Robert Moore]

(Michael) wrote
> That is absolutely dead on. In fact, when I first fly with an
> instrument student, I don't even use the hood, do approaches or
> holds, or care about IFR charts. All we do is the fundamentals
> of flight - climbs and descents, turns and straight flight, and
> combinations of the above. Maybe we track a VOR.

Same here... no hood at all for the first couple of lessons.

Bob Moore

[Cecil E. Chapman]

This may be a 'silly human question', but how does one legally land at an
airport if it is IFR at the airport and the plane doesn't have a GPS, yet
the only published instrument approach for that airport IS a GPS?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Max T, CFI" > wrote in message
news:MqxBb.351137$ao4.1176913@attbi_s51...
> Cecil,
> A number of times while teaching at RHV, I've returned when the field was
still IFR.
> On one occasion recently we flew the ILS 30L approach to SJC and when we
broke
> out of the clouds, diverted to RHV. In another case, we flew an approach
into
> Hayward, followed I-880 and I-680 to the field and got in under special
VFR.
> In both of those cases, having a GPS wouldn't have helped anyway, since
the MDA
> is so high on that approach.
> Max T, MCFI
>
>
> >
> The only drawback is that my home airport,
> > Reid-Hillview only has a GPS approach and none of the 172's I currently
fly
> > have panel mount GPS's (supposed to be getting two,, unfortunately they
> > aren't being added to any of the planes that I fly), so we can only take
> > advantage of the IMC if it is VFR (i.e., so I get back) at my home
airport
> > around the time we plan returning to RHV.
> >
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> This may be a 'silly human question', but how does one legally land at an
> airport if it is IFR at the airport and the plane doesn't have a GPS, yet
> the only published instrument approach for that airport IS a GPS?
>
He said he shot the ILS to SJC and did a SPECIAL VFR to RHV.

Used to be a pretty standard occurance to get into VKX, the airport manager
even made up an approach plate for "ILS into ADW, special VFR ot VKX"

[John Roncallo]

Gerald Sylvester wrote:

>
> I'm close to completing my PPL (9 days for my checkride) and planned
> to go onto to get IFR training in a 6-7 months. The weather
> in the San Francisco Bay area has been quite cloudy and rainy and
> was thinking about starting my IFR training immediately in order
> to take advantage of the IMC conditions. I know most people get
> IFR rated without having ever flown in IMC. I want to do it
> for real.
>
> So a simple question......what items did you find helpful for
> IFR training? This is in regards to books (my instructor recommended
> Gleim, a book by Dugan (?), and the Jeppeson book), foggles (brands?),
> timers, anything and everything. I'm definitely more into quality
> than quantity. I'd rather spend an extra money and get best,
> easiest and especially the safest.
>
> thanks
> Gerald
>

I found the Elite Pro Trianer software very valuable and I still use it
today. I recomend the $500.00 training package with the USB yoke.

John Roncallo

[Cecil E. Chapman]

oopers.... didn't see that... Thanks!

Happy Holidays!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > This may be a 'silly human question', but how does one legally land at
an
> > airport if it is IFR at the airport and the plane doesn't have a GPS,
yet
> > the only published instrument approach for that airport IS a GPS?
> >
> He said he shot the ILS to SJC and did a SPECIAL VFR to RHV.
>
> Used to be a pretty standard occurance to get into VKX, the airport
manager
> even made up an approach plate for "ILS into ADW, special VFR ot VKX"
>
>