Looking for an affordable 4-passenger aircraft

[Tailhook]

I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin engines if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:

reliable and affordable--under $200K
4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an emergency
range: 1000 NM
speed: 160 KIAS +
pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on

What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?

Thanks from general aviation rookie with less than 50 hours of Cesnna 150 time from the 1960s.

[Montblack]

("Tailhook" wrote)
[I didn't know what to snip <g>]
> reliable and affordable--under $200K

> Thanks from general aviation rookie with less than 50 hours of Cesnna
> 150 time from the 1960s.


Here's one for around $400K .....partnership? :-)

http://www.diamond-air.at/en/products/DA42/index.htm

<http://www.diamondair.com/aircraft.php?PHPSESSID=671daa05c9d24f23f9b4e6c87f6 12754>
Diamond DA-42 Twin Star

Diesel.

Amazing plane. Not sure if the diesel version is available, yet, in the US -
this summer probably.

Don't buy the non-diesel option. Wait for the diesel.

80% Power
Range: .....917 NM
Time:...........5.3 hrs
Speed: ......172 kts
Gal/hr: ........12.5 total

60% Power
Range: ...1,129 NM
Time:.........7.48 hrs
Speed: ......151 kts
Gal/hr: ........8.8 total


Montblack

[BTIZ]

Without reading the other responses.. Piper Seneca II Turbo
most can be had with average radios for about $150K

What was your Navy Twin time in, and hopefully NOT centerline thrust.
BT

"Tailhook" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
> past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
> I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
> the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin engines
> if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
> and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:
>
> reliable and affordable--under $200K
> 4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
> twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
> emergency
> range: 1000 NM
> speed: 160 KIAS +
> pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
> reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
> Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on
>
> What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?
>
> Thanks from general aviation rookie with less than 50 hours of Cesnna
> 150 time from the 1960s.
>
>
> --
> Tailhook

[Doug]

Well it won't go quite that fast, and it's not pressurized, it's a
single, but it will carry 4 and it will go anywhere reliably, a Cessna
182 (or 182RG if you want the extra speed). Standard issue all american
airplane. Hard to beat. $100-$150 per hour.

In the Piper line, a Cherokee 235 Pathfinder or Cherokee 236 are the
ones. $100-150 per hour.

If you REALLY have to have pressurized and that sort of range, you are
above your budget because neither a Cessna 210P or a Piper Malibu have
that kind of range, though they come close (both are pressurized).
$150-200 per hour

Something like a Beech Baron 58P will do what you want, but believe me
it will COST to buy and COST to run. But it's pressuriized, a twin and
plenty fast. With long range tanks it might go 1000 NM, I dunno. If you
have the bucks, its the one to have. $200-250 per hour.

(The per hour figures are based on 200 hours a year and are rough
estimates).

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 22:38:10 +0000, Tailhook
> wrote:

>
>I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
>past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
>I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
>the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin engines
>if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
>and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:
>
>reliable and affordable--under $200K
>4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
>twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
>emergency
>range: 1000 NM
>speed: 160 KIAS +
>pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
>reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
>Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on

Check out risingup.com. It has a performance database of nearly all
production GA planes. You can search for aircraft types based upon
performance parameters.

Then use aso.com or controller.com to get an idea of the aircraft
price range.

The 1000nm range is going to eliminate a lot of aircraft. Also, that
is a really long time to stay aloft if you are flying at 160kts.

As you get into your search, remember that the purchase price only
scratches the surface on aircraft expenses. Insurance + hangar fees +
maintenance + fuel & oil costs can be quite large, particularly on a
larger engined twin. I would budget at least $20k / year to fly a
Baron or similar twin (not including acquisition or loan costs).

-Nathan

[Dave Butler]

Tailhook wrote:
> I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
> past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
> I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
> the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin engines
> if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
> and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:
>
> reliable and affordable--under $200K
> 4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')

Not doubting that you need this, but I think many buyers overestimate the need
for weight capacity, unless they have some experience in the GA environment and
know what their mission profile is. Many people find they make many trips by
themselves or with a single passenger. Just think critically about this
requirement, is all I'm saying.

> twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
> emergency

Look around on avweb.com and aopa.org and other places for statistics on
relative accident rates twins vs. singles. You might decide the difference is
not worth the huge bump in operating costs. There are times and places, of
course, where a twin has an obvious safety advantage.

> range: 1000 NM

I think it will open up the range of options consdirably if you are willing to
make two 500 nm hops.

> speed: 160 KIAS +
> pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)

Given pressurized, I think any pressurized aircraft will meet the speed
requirement handily. As soon as you say 'pressurized', you are going way up the
scale toward the high-end, at least from my lowly point of view.

> reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
> Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on

$100-$200/hr overall operating costs (incl fuel) for a typical piston single,
probably toward the higher end since you have a large weight capacity
requirement, which drives you toward larger airplanes and bigger engines.

There's a lot of variability in operating costs from individual to individual,
and airplane to airplane, and year to year. Hard to predict. You need a flexible
budget. Multi-hundred dollar surprises are common, and multi-thousand dollar
surprises are not uncommon.

The above is for non-pressurized, pressurized is going to bump that even higher.
Don't have any experience with twins, but it will be still more, of course.

>
> What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?
>
> Thanks from general aviation rookie with less than 50 hours of Cesnna
> 150 time from the 1960s.

Good luck with your search, and keep us in the loop!

Dave

[ktbr]

Tailhook wrote:
>
> reliable and affordable--under $200K
Anytime you are talking about pressurized aircraft - and
multi engine you are talking more than $200K.

According to your performce requirements a Kingar 90 would
fit the bill but I don't think you can find one for $200k.

I wouldn't rule out single engine airplanes, there are
many that could meet your mission for a lot less cost than
a twin.

[Ronnie]

Take a look at the Cessna 340 and the Cessna 400 series, particular
the 414 and 421. These will be above your $200K range, but are
fast, pressurized twins. Also, understand the wing spar AD on the 400
series Cessnas before buying one.

If you eliminate the pressurization requirement, look at the Cessna 310,
Beech Barons (55 and 58 models) and the Piper Aztec. Of the bunch, the
Aztec is the slowest, but also the cheapest to buy. You can find a really
nice Aztec for well under $200K.

Moving a bit more into the rarer category, the Twin Aerocommander and
Piper Aerostar are possibilities.

I'd also reccommend either getting a copy of the Aviation Consumer's
Used Aircraft Buyer's Guide, or subscribing to the montly Aviation
Consumer publication which includes access to their web site. Then you
can access the used aircraft articles online.

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/

Another good publication to get a subscription to is Trade-A-Plane, the
bible for the GA aircraft market. Again, subscribing to the print copy
gets you online access to their database which is a good place to shop
and get a feel for the market.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/index.shtml

Good luck.

Ronnie

"Tailhook" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
> past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
> I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
> the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin engines
> if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
> and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:
>
> reliable and affordable--under $200K
> 4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
> twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
> emergency
> range: 1000 NM
> speed: 160 KIAS +
> pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
> reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
> Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on
>
> What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?
>
> Thanks from general aviation rookie with less than 50 hours of Cesnna
> 150 time from the 1960s.
>
>
> --
> Tailhook

[Michael]

A pressurized twin is out of your price range. So is 160 KIAS at
cruising altitude. 1000 nm range will be iffy.

Assuming you really meant 160 KTAS at crusising altitude, the options
open up.

Starting bottom up in terms of operating cost, think Twin Comanche with
extended range tanks (tips or nacelle) and a Robertson kit. Typically
1400-1500 lbs useful load, about 100 gallons usable fuel (84 is
standard), and 160 KTAS at 7000-11000 ft on 15-16 gph total. Total
operating cost will be about $25K/year, all up (maintenance, fuel,
insurance, hangar, etc) and you can get a good one for $120K.

If you really need more load carrying, think Baron or C-310. Operating
cost goes up by 40% or so, payload goes up about the same, speed might
go up a few knots.

Michael

[Tailhook]

BTIZ

The only centerline thrust time I had was back in flight school. After that it was all 2 & 4 engine--Carrier On Board Delivery (COD) C-1 (twin R1820 radials) & C-2 (twin T-56 truboprop) during Vietnam, P-3 oceanographic research and hurricane hunters for 4 more years (4-T56-turbos), and 13 more years of carrier E-2 (more T-56's--4000+ hours in 3 versions of Hawkeyes).

Thanks for the tips. At least your pointing me along a valid path for getting back into this. I may end up having to go to some kind of partnership but I'm just getting serious on the search. I do appreciate the help.

Tailhook

[Tailhook]

A pressurized twin is out of your price range. So is 160 KIAS at
cruising altitude. 1000 nm range will be iffy.

Assuming you really meant 160 KTAS at crusising altitude, the options
open up.

Starting bottom up in terms of operating cost, think Twin Comanche with
extended range tanks (tips or nacelle) and a Robertson kit. Typically
1400-1500 lbs useful load, about 100 gallons usable fuel (84 is
standard), and 160 KTAS at 7000-11000 ft on 15-16 gph total. Total
operating cost will be about $25K/year, all up (maintenance, fuel,
insurance, hangar, etc) and you can get a good one for $120K.

If you really need more load carrying, think Baron or C-310. Operating
cost goes up by 40% or so, payload goes up about the same, speed might
go up a few knots.

Michael

Thanks, Michael. This helps. I'll check these out.
Tailhook

[Tailhook]

Check out risingup.com. It has a performance database of nearly all
production GA planes. You can search for aircraft types based upon
performance parameters.

Then use aso.com or controller.com to get an idea of the aircraft
price range.

The 1000nm range is going to eliminate a lot of aircraft. Also, that
is a really long time to stay aloft if you are flying at 160kts.

As you get into your search, remember that the purchase price only
scratches the surface on aircraft expenses. Insurance + hangar fees +
maintenance + fuel & oil costs can be quite large, particularly on a
larger engined twin. I would budget at least $20k / year to fly a
Baron or similar twin (not including acquisition or loan costs).

-Nathan[/QUOTE]

Now this is the kind of information I'm looking for! It took me a few years to find this site but this is really helpful stuff and should help me refine the differences between nice to haves and needs. I'll check out the sites further.

Thanks a lot, Nathan. Should help me get through some of the chaff out there--data but not information I can use. Appreciate the help.

Tailhook

[WildBlue]

>>retired Navy pilot
Thanks for serving our country, may God bless you

1. Join AOPA, spend a lot of time on their web site reviewing the
material they have assembled. They offer a great many other member
benefits you will not be disappointed.

>> children are now moving all over the country
Will you most likey be flying up and down the east coast (consider
ADS-B) or west coast? over the rockies?(must be forced induction i.e.
TSIO) into dixie or the southwest (AC comfort might make alieviate some
of the stress, and make the experience a bit more pleasent for you &
your passengers) midwest or northeast bound (may want to consider some
type of icing protection)

>> reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
2. Avionics have changed a great deal over the years, newer is better
especially the GPS and weather products. An Auto-Pilot is your friend.

>> range: 1000 NM
>> speed: 160 KIAS +

My personal preference would be:
1989+Up Mooney M20M TLS/Bravo with Long Range Tanks (102gals vs 89gal
OEM)

Generally it will fit your price range and came from the factory with a
very good avionics package ...

It will make those numbers and more ...
with four seats and full fuel? Nope, but pretty close check out Jimmy
Garrisons article "The Lowdown on Useful Load" on
http://www.allamericanaircraft.com

Other sites of interest
http://www.mooneypilots.com
http://www.modsquad.cc
http://www.mooneyland.com

>> Some idea of annual maintenance costs
Those sites will help you determine that with greater precision than I
can. I looked into insurance for a 1966 Mooney M20E ($3600/1yr for a 0
TT student pilot) and read interesting article comparing the cost of
insurance for a Cirrus SR-22 vs a Mooney ... 10K vs 5K ... the Mooney
had a better rate due to its longer and enviable safety record. Just
spend some time looking over the aircraft salvage sites ... note which
makes are nothing more than of melted material, or look like crushed
beer cans or the ones that look intact. Annuals depend on the aircraft
and who you take it to ... I think the local MSC shop here charges
~$60-$65/hour ... the estimated hours depending on equipment is 20-25
hours for the 1989 model so labor is about ~1200-1675 throw in parts,
supplies and addtional labor for a couple of squawks and I think your
going see something close to 2K to 2.5K. Tie downs around here are $85
to $100 a month, hangers are damn near impossible to find, at least
where I live, wait listed for years and go for $$$ per month.
I think you are looking at something between 10K to 15K depending on
how much you fly and how well you buy.

>> pressurized cabin
I think you'd have to spend a great deal more money to get that.

>> twin engines if only because they gives you an option when the
>> weather deteriorates and so does one engine.

I am all for options but their are cons to owning and operating a twin.

1. Aircraft engines are expensive for a reason, quality costs money.
quality engines require, quality maintence and those engines will
consume quantities of fuel ... with a twin it is 2X ...

2. More to manage, easier to "get behind the airplane" or be "consumed
in the checklist" that you forget to "Fly the Plane" therefore it will
consume more time reconfigure for any given phase of flight. So you
drill and drill the emergency routines, your life and possibly the
lives of loved ones may one day be on the line, if you get it wrong in
a real emergency, despite your second engine, trim or configure it
wrong for whatever failure and you can easily wind up dead.

3. Smaller market for twin depresses values and makes unloading one a
bit more difficult. Facts are facts, there are roughly half a million
licensed pilots in the US. How many of those have the currency and
experience to buy a twin? I think it is going to be a tougher sell.

Good luck

[Greg Piney]

I rarely chime in on things like this, but 2 of my favorite planes fall
in this catagory.
First, for a single engine, my vote goes to the Bellanca SuperViking
Turbo. Speed over 200, Range over 750. Current price for at late 70's,
early 80's example is well under 90K.

Second, Twin engine, Aerostar 601P. Pressurized twin with over 230mph
speed and range over 1000. Nice ones can be had for under 200K.

Greg Piney


Tailhook wrote:
> Michael Wrote:
>
>>A pressurized twin is out of your price range. So is 160 KIAS at
>>cruising altitude. 1000 nm range will be iffy.
>>
>>Assuming you really meant 160 KTAS at crusising altitude, the options
>>open up.
>>
>>Starting bottom up in terms of operating cost, think Twin Comanche
>>with
>>extended range tanks (tips or nacelle) and a Robertson kit. Typically
>>1400-1500 lbs useful load, about 100 gallons usable fuel (84 is
>>standard), and 160 KTAS at 7000-11000 ft on 15-16 gph total. Total
>>operating cost will be about $25K/year, all up (maintenance, fuel,
>>insurance, hangar, etc) and you can get a good one for $120K.
>>
>>If you really need more load carrying, think Baron or C-310.
>>Operating
>>cost goes up by 40% or so, payload goes up about the same, speed might
>>go up a few knots.
>>
>>Michael
>
>
> Thanks, Michael. This helps. I'll check these out.
> Tailhook
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Tailhook" wrote:

> I'm an retired Navy pilot with lots of time (6000)--but nothing in the
> past 15 years--but my children are now moving all over the country and
> I'd like to get back into the air to visit them. I know little about
> the general aviation market or products but I'm partial to twin
> engines
> if only because they gives you an option when the weather deteriorates
> and so does one engine. I'm looking for the following:
>
> reliable and affordable--under $200K
> 4-passenger capability (real passengers--none of my kids are under 6')
> twin preferred--or logic why a single engine is not really an
> emergency
> range: 1000 NM
> speed: 160 KIAS +
> pressurized cabin (a preference but not a requirement)
> reasonable IFR package--but state of the art not needed
> Some idea of annual maintenance costs I need to be planning on
>
> What aircraft would you recommend I be looking into?

Cessna P210 fills the bill nicely assuming you can get past the single
engine thing and you mean TAS instead of IAS.

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=148

Total annual op. cost will be $25k or so for 100 hours.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Ken Reed]

> My personal preference would be:
> 1989+Up Mooney M20M TLS/Bravo with Long Range Tanks (102gals vs 89gal
> OEM)
>
> Generally it will fit your price range and came from the factory with a
> very good avionics package ...

That's what worked for me. Long range tanks are 118 gal, not 102, at
least in mine. Mine also has 'known icing', a Garmin 430 (and 396 on the
yoke) and KFC-150 autopilot/FD, in addition to a bunch of other goodies.
---
Ken Reed
N9124X