View Full Version : FSDO enforcement- GPS before effective date - which date to put in Aircraft Log for Part 43?
Ron A.
March 10th 06, 09:35 PM
Everyone seems to agree that that FAR 43 requires a maintenance log entry
when updating the database. And everyone agrees that it is silly.
What date do you put down for the maintenance ( I know the obvious answer -
the date you did it)? If I update multiple planes this weekend with the
database that will be effective in the middle of the week (Mar 16th) because
it is more convenient to go to the airport on a weekend, is it smart to put
I updated the databases before they are effective if they have an IFR flight
before the 16th?
I understand you can legally fly an approach with an expired database if the
approach has not been modified since the last database revision. My
understanding is you couldn't verify if the approach had changed until you
wait close enough to the cycle data to get the paper charts and see if they
changed anything. If they changed it on the future cycle and it affected
your approach before the effective date (you can download 10 days ahead,
before you receive the paper) could FSDO bring enforcement?
I take the old cards home with me so I don't have to make two trips to the
airport every update cycle.
We had a courtesy safety inspection last year by FSDO and they went through
every log and found things they thought could be done better. (multiple
planes). Mostly nitpicking stuff.
Never, did they mention the absence of GPS database entries in the
maintenance log or on anyone else's plane on the field.
I think the only way around it is to leave both sets of cards and make two
trips each cycle. Now that is ridiculous!
Ron A.
Ron A.
March 10th 06, 09:56 PM
And I just thought of one more thing.
What date and whose name is recorded in the maintenance log, if you just
put the future effective cycle chip in the glove box and some other member
plugs
it in when it is effective?
I programmed the cartridge days before effective. It seems the person who
plugs it in would record in the log, not the programming person. The
aircraft wasn't modified until it was plugged in. If I am required to
verify the installation by turning it on with the new card am I supposed to
take it back out and put the old one back in without logging the
programming?
I only care because the date is being written down in a maintenance log for
someone
else to be able to review. I don't know how to reconcile who really makes
the entry in accordance with the FAR 43.
Ron A.
">Ron A." > wrote in message
news:YimQf.609842$084.124252@attbi_s22...
> Everyone seems to agree that that FAR 43 requires a maintenance log entry
> when updating the database. And everyone agrees that it is silly.
Dave Butler
March 10th 06, 10:02 PM
Ron A. wrote:
> Everyone seems to agree that that FAR 43 requires a maintenance log entry
> when updating the database. And everyone agrees that it is silly.
>
> What date do you put down for the maintenance ( I know the obvious answer -
> the date you did it)? If I update multiple planes this weekend with the
> database that will be effective in the middle of the week (Mar 16th) because
> it is more convenient to go to the airport on a weekend, is it smart to put
> I updated the databases before they are effective if they have an IFR flight
> before the 16th?
GNS480 makes it easy. You can update the database before the effective date,
both the current and future databases are stored on the card, and the GNS480
automatically switches to the new database on the effective date. I haven't been
around and the precise moment when it switches to know whether the switching
disrupts a flight in progress. :)
>
> I understand you can legally fly an approach with an expired database if the
> approach has not been modified since the last database revision. My
That's true only if your Approved Flight Manual Supplement permits it. Believe
it or not, they're not all the same. If you have a UPS/Garmin-AT, the
boilerplate FMS they shipped you, and you probably sent off to OK City without
modifying it, and OK City approved without modifying it, allows you to fly an
approach if you verify it is unchanged.
OTOH if you have a Garmin(not-AT) the boilerplate that they shipped to you, and
you probably sent off to OK City withoutodifying it, and OK City approved
without modifying it, requires you to have a current data base.
Not sure what happens with other brands.
Also not sure if you could have modified the boilerplate and had it approved.
> understanding is you couldn't verify if the approach had changed until you
> wait close enough to the cycle data to get the paper charts and see if they
> changed anything. If they changed it on the future cycle and it affected
> your approach before the effective date (you can download 10 days ahead,
> before you receive the paper) could FSDO bring enforcement?
John Clonts
March 11th 06, 03:28 AM
"Ron A." > wrote in message news:YimQf.609842$084.124252@attbi_s22...
> Everyone seems to agree that that FAR 43 requires a maintenance log entry
> when updating the database. And everyone agrees that it is silly.
>
> What date do you put down for the maintenance ( I know the obvious answer -
> the date you did it)? If I update multiple planes this weekend with the
> database that will be effective in the middle of the week (Mar 16th) because
> it is more convenient to go to the airport on a weekend, is it smart to put
> I updated the databases before they are effective if they have an IFR flight
> before the 16th?
>
> I understand you can legally fly an approach with an expired database if the
> approach has not been modified since the last database revision. My
> understanding is you couldn't verify if the approach had changed until you
> wait close enough to the cycle data to get the paper charts and see if they
> changed anything. If they changed it on the future cycle and it affected
> your approach before the effective date (you can download 10 days ahead,
> before you receive the paper) could FSDO bring enforcement?
>
> I take the old cards home with me so I don't have to make two trips to the
> airport every update cycle.
>
> We had a courtesy safety inspection last year by FSDO and they went through
> every log and found things they thought could be done better. (multiple
> planes). Mostly nitpicking stuff.
>
> Never, did they mention the absence of GPS database entries in the
> maintenance log or on anyone else's plane on the field.
>
> I think the only way around it is to leave both sets of cards and make two
> trips each cycle. Now that is ridiculous!
>
FWIW, you can put the new card in the KLN-94 before the effective date. The old data will be used until the
effective date. If you are using it at 0000 UTC on the effective date (6pm CST) it will give you a message,
telling you to power off and back on to use the new data.
--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ
Peter Clark
March 11th 06, 11:45 PM
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:13:17 +0000, Peter >
wrote:
>
>"John Clonts" > wrote
>
>>FWIW, you can put the new card in the KLN-94 before the effective date. The old data will be used until the
>>effective date. If you are using it at 0000 UTC on the effective date (6pm CST) it will give you a message,
>>telling you to power off and back on to use the new data.
>
>How does this work?
>
>Does the KLN94 have enough internal FLASH to store a copy of the
>complete previous CF FLASH card?
>
>Does each CF card contains two sets of data; one old and one new?
No documentation to support the view, but I believe the KLN94 has
enough internal flash to hold two sets of data. It checks the card
inserted into the unit and downloads it to internal if the card
doesn't have the same (whatever they compare) as the internal data.
When it comes time, the unit then swaps over to whichever bank of
flash it needs uses depending on effective date (or just whatever has
the newest effective date if everything onboard has expired).
John Clonts
March 12th 06, 12:05 AM
"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:13:17 +0000, Peter >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Clonts" > wrote
>>
>>>FWIW, you can put the new card in the KLN-94 before the effective date. The old data will be used until the
>>>effective date. If you are using it at 0000 UTC on the effective date (6pm CST) it will give you a message,
>>>telling you to power off and back on to use the new data.
>>
>>How does this work?
>>
>>Does the KLN94 have enough internal FLASH to store a copy of the
>>complete previous CF FLASH card?
>>
>>Does each CF card contains two sets of data; one old and one new?
>
> No documentation to support the view, but I believe the KLN94 has
> enough internal flash to hold two sets of data. It checks the card
> inserted into the unit and downloads it to internal if the card
> doesn't have the same (whatever they compare) as the internal data.
> When it comes time, the unit then swaps over to whichever bank of
> flash it needs uses depending on effective date (or just whatever has
> the newest effective date if everything onboard has expired).
This agrees with my experience. The "downloads it to internal" step takes 5-10 minutes, but the "swap over to
whichever bank" is just the standard power-on sequence (30sec or so)...
John
Peter R.
March 14th 06, 05:46 PM
John Clonts > wrote:
> FWIW, you can put the new card in the KLN-94 before the effective date.
> The old data will be used until the
> effective date. If you are using it at 0000 UTC on the effective date
> (6pm CST) it will give you a message,
> telling you to power off and back on to use the new data.
Which, IMO, stinks. :)
I was flying a night, IFR flight over Washington, DC, airspace, being
guided by GPS and the autopilot. Before you point it out: Yes, I got
caught with my pants down. I didn't have a current VOR tuned as a backup.
Upon acknowledging this message and rebooting the GPS, the GPS would not
lock onto the required number of satellites, so suddenly the GPS was an
overpriced paperweight.
I switched the AP to HDG mode, quickly reached for my charts, identified my
position on the chart, then tuned and twisted the navigable VOR station,
but not before I drifted about a mile east of course. Once the VOR was up,
I was able to get back on course and continue.
The GPS finally came back on line about 5 minutes after the episode
started. Needless to say I learned a very healthy lesson that night.
--
Peter
Peter R.
March 14th 06, 06:07 PM
Mark Hansen > wrote:
> Didn't you have to notify ATC about the loss of functionality? Couldn't they
> have assisted you with vectors until you got your back-up equipment set up?
Recall that the aviation priorities place "communicate" third in line. The
first two priorities were enough for me to correct the problem and I was
able to get back on course within a minute or so of the GPS outage.
Had my pants been further down around my ankles (had my charts been in the
back seat, for example), then yes, I would have requested a vector.
--
Peter
Peter R.
March 14th 06, 06:11 PM
Mark Hansen > wrote:
> Is the GPS database going to expire and switch during this
> flight?
Whoops, I missed this. It is not the GPS database expiring during flight,
but rather it is the GPS database *becoming current* during flight that
results in a power-off, restart GPS message.
Be aware of the effective date of the database when putting a new card in
the KLN94.
--
Peter
Mark Hansen
March 14th 06, 06:24 PM
On 03/14/06 10:07, Peter R. wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote:
>
>> Didn't you have to notify ATC about the loss of functionality? Couldn't they
>> have assisted you with vectors until you got your back-up equipment set up?
>
> Recall that the aviation priorities place "communicate" third in line. The
> first two priorities were enough for me to correct the problem and I was
> able to get back on course within a minute or so of the GPS outage.
Right. I wasn't criticizing ... sorry if I came across that way. I was only
thinking that getting vectors while working out the details might have
lessened any pucker factor that may have been involved.
>
> Had my pants been further down around my ankles (had my charts been in the
> back seat, for example), then yes, I would have requested a vector.
>
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
Mark Hansen
March 14th 06, 06:26 PM
On 03/14/06 10:11, Peter R. wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote:
>
>> Is the GPS database going to expire and switch during this
>> flight?
>
> Whoops, I missed this. It is not the GPS database expiring during flight,
> but rather it is the GPS database *becoming current* during flight that
> results in a power-off, restart GPS message.
>
> Be aware of the effective date of the database when putting a new card in
> the KLN94.
>
I assumed these were the same date. I guess what I *meant* was the point
when the unit will need to switch over, whatever that is for the particular
unit being used.
Still ... good story and good food for thought - thanks,
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
Peter R.
March 14th 06, 06:35 PM
Mark Hansen > wrote:
> Right. I wasn't criticizing ... sorry if I came across that way. I was only
> thinking that getting vectors while working out the details might have
> lessened any pucker factor that may have been involved.
Not necessary. I didn't take your comment as criticism. :) I am just
exercising my newly-learned skill of being direct and to the point.
--
Peter
John Clonts
March 14th 06, 09:32 PM
>> FWIW, you can put the new card in the KLN-94 before the effective date.
>> The old data will be used until the
>> effective date. If you are using it at 0000 UTC on the effective date
>> (6pm CST) it will give you a message,
>> telling you to power off and back on to use the new data.
>
>Which, IMO, stinks. :)
>
>I was flying a night, IFR flight over Washington, DC, airspace, being
>guided by GPS and the autopilot. Before you point it out: Yes, I got
>caught with my pants down. I didn't have a current VOR tuned as a backup.
>
Well, in the case I was referring to, my KLN04 did not force me to
reboot at that moment, it just was letting me know that I would need to
reboot eventually to use the new cycle's data. It continued tracking
and using the old data just fine in the mean time.
Did yours actually force you to reboot at that moment? What kind of
GPS is it?
Cheers,
John
John Clonts
March 14th 06, 09:34 PM
>Seems like a good pre-flight check item - I'm always happy to add new check
>list items ;-) - Is the GPS database going to expire and switch during this
>flight?
And if the answer is yes, then what?
Cheers,
John
John Clonts
March 14th 06, 09:38 PM
Oops, I meant KLN94, and I see elsewhere in the thread that yours is
the same.
John
Peter R.
March 14th 06, 09:42 PM
John Clonts > wrote:
> Did yours actually force you to reboot at that moment? What kind of
> GPS is it?
It was a B/K KLN94 (that is what we are discussing, right?) and this was
perhaps three years ago. Yes, the only option I recall was to reboot.
Have there been software updates since then that may have addressed this?
I wouldn't know since it has been about 2 1/2 years since I flew with that
brand and model GPS.
--
Peter
Mark Hansen
March 14th 06, 10:02 PM
On 03/14/06 13:34, John Clonts wrote:
>>Seems like a good pre-flight check item - I'm always happy to add new check
>>list items ;-) - Is the GPS database going to expire and switch during this
>>flight?
>
> And if the answer is yes, then what?
Be prepared for it?
I suppose you'll say that you should always be prepared for any device
to go TU during the flight, and you'd be right. But here is a case where
you can know in advance that it's going to happen, and be ready for it
such that there is no surprise.
Seems like a good idea to me.
>
> Cheers,
> John
>
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
John Clonts
March 14th 06, 11:38 PM
>Have there been software updates since then that may have addressed this?
>I wouldn't know since it has been about 2 1/2 years since I flew with that
>brand and model GPS.
Yes, there has been a major software upgrade a year or two ago. It
appears they have eliminated that particular "gotcha" (of requiring an
immediate reboot when the new cycle becomes effective).
Cheers,
John
John Clonts
March 15th 06, 02:30 PM
>Was this a dealer service update, or something that happens with
>a flash card database update?
It was a dealer service update which involved physically swapping out
an internal ROM. It resulted in an upgrade to "ORS 3". The most
visible change we noticed after the upgrade was the depiction of
holding patterns and PT barbs on the approaches. The manual lists the
changes in that revision, but interestingly, doesn't mention the one
that we're discussing here...
Cheers,
John
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